Where are the mount skeptics from the old forums?

[Tumult.2578]

> @Ashen.2907 said:

> > @Tumult.2578 said:

> > Having to defend the batteries seems to have become a perfect example of pay to win because there is no way a non mount player can do equal damage to Teq and then get to the batteries and do equal damage there too and get back again. The mount speed difference is massive and allows doing more damage, for longer periods, and still get back in time to beat the non mount players back.

>

>

> How much damage does one individual have to do in order to get credit? What do the players who get to the batteries a few seconds sooner win compared to those without a mount?

>

> Realistically the difference between the character with the mount and the one without is largely irrelevant because one character's damage output among dozens is largely irrelevant.

 

Are you sure you want to raise that question? Do you really want to see many players standing at a distance waiting till the end to jump in with the last 2 or 3 hits? Your implying it's fine to sit at a crafting station crafting, or running the map harvesting and then just show up at the end for full credit is fine. That sounds about as cooperative as giving half the players double damage and the other half, quarter damage and expecting everyone to be fine with that, and a sure fire way to make the event fail a lot more.

This was just one example. Apply the speed difference long term and it affects much more than damage.

[Tumult.2578]

> @Nury.3062 said:

> > @Tumult.2578 said:

> > Personally, I'd expect many of those non mount players are taking some time off. To make an accurate, unbiased comment here would require PoF owners to play a few days in Core Tyria without mounts. That way they would see things that are happening to non mount players. For example, doing the Teq World boss fight now consists of being constantly trampled or having several mounts standing on top of you, obstructing your view, and then when Teq arrives and those same players miss time their jump or dodge and are downed, they yell at you for not instantly rezzing them. Having to defend the batteries seems to have become a perfect example of pay to win because there is no way a non mount player can do equal damage to Teq and then get to the batteries and do equal damage there too and get back again. The mount speed difference is massive and allows doing more damage, for longer periods, and still get back in time to beat the non mount players back.

> > While this should be fine in PoF maps, but I'm afraid it will destroy cooperative PvE if it remains unchanged. If you think this inaccurate, please try it without mounts and watch all the mounted players way off ahead of you in the distance already doing damage.

> > I'm not trying to imply a problem with mounts or that they shouldn't be in the game. I'm saying if they are going to be allowed in core Tyria and Hot, and affect everyone everywhere, then there needs to be a way to reach the same speeds without mounts, in core Tyria and Hot maps. I do not understand how the speed difference can be considered acceptable. I am unsure whether a generic mount being added to the game for all players to obtain would be an acceptable solution at this point but I strongly hope they are working on a fair response to this issue.

>

> Why does it matter if someone does more dmg than you at Teq...or anywhere....it's not pvp where it can matter...

 

While it's not as important for higher levels, each event, and in the Teq fight example, Experience and Karma are awarded for each completed battery stage based on the players performance at a gold, silver or copper level. Guess who now has a distinct advantage in gaining the gold level award. Experience and Karma matter and they are now being awarded differently due to the speed difference.

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

I spoke out against mounts once or twice. I still have my reservations but there's no point in making a fuss about mounts. ANets not going to remove them from the game. The biggest reservation I had, I still have. How fast they, how much smaller they make the maps and their ability to let you skip past mobs. I made a brand new char and started running to wps out of the starter instance. I got her clear to the southernmost wp in Orr at level 16 by leaping past all the level 80 mobs before they could react. She's level 23 now and has almost 3/4th of vanilla Tyria unfogged and wps opened up. Mounts are definitely fun but they also make the world smaller.

[notebene.3190]

I'm probably in the group that was the target demographic for how they did mounts. I didn't really want them just to ride around and go faster. I liked running around just fine, and usually run speed runes or passive abilities to make me go fast. I still don't use them too much in the old world, unless I'm 'chasing' people calling out events for a "get 4 done here" daily. I'd rather just run around with my camera zoomed closer (vs super-zoomed out for mounts).

 

They way they did them was great. They are more of a skill than a mount in the normal sense. I mean, when I used to play WoW (100 years ago), each character had a favorite flying and land mount that went with the character. Beyond a 'speed boost' and ignoring content using 'swim flying' with total control of your XYZ access, it was a cosmetic thing. Here, they are more of a skill, thinking about where you are going, where you think you'll have moments to get out of combat to change pets, and executing. That's ... kinda cool. :)

 

I don't think of the mounts cosmetically at all, I think of them as the best utility for the situation. Which is better than I play my character sometimes! :#

 

And that you get pummeled by mobs and often dismounted as you move around, and that you can't mount in combat, there are a lot of handicaps to them to not make them a get out of jail free card.

 

So after not really wanting to see them, that we inevitably got them, they did a really nice job of thinking through how they were going to implement them, I think, and make them something special. Too often we see hype videos before a launch, and I can remember the one where they were talking about the mounts, and frankly, I felt what they said about them was pretty spot on. Here's what we did, here's why we did it, we think you're going to enjoy them. Didn't want them, but yes I do enjoy them. :)

[TheOrlyFactor.8341]

While I've warmed up to mounts from my previous skepticism, I still think they should be limited to at least the expansions (PoF and HoT, I refuse to touch HoT maps again unless I have a mount ready, especially for TD). Having them in Core Tyria and in major cities feels off to me. :T

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @Tumult.2578 said:

> > @Nury.3062 said:

> > > @Tumult.2578 said:

> > > Personally, I'd expect many of those non mount players are taking some time off. To make an accurate, unbiased comment here would require PoF owners to play a few days in Core Tyria without mounts. That way they would see things that are happening to non mount players. For example, doing the Teq World boss fight now consists of being constantly trampled or having several mounts standing on top of you, obstructing your view, and then when Teq arrives and those same players miss time their jump or dodge and are downed, they yell at you for not instantly rezzing them. Having to defend the batteries seems to have become a perfect example of pay to win because there is no way a non mount player can do equal damage to Teq and then get to the batteries and do equal damage there too and get back again. The mount speed difference is massive and allows doing more damage, for longer periods, and still get back in time to beat the non mount players back.

> > > While this should be fine in PoF maps, but I'm afraid it will destroy cooperative PvE if it remains unchanged. If you think this inaccurate, please try it without mounts and watch all the mounted players way off ahead of you in the distance already doing damage.

> > > I'm not trying to imply a problem with mounts or that they shouldn't be in the game. I'm saying if they are going to be allowed in core Tyria and Hot, and affect everyone everywhere, then there needs to be a way to reach the same speeds without mounts, in core Tyria and Hot maps. I do not understand how the speed difference can be considered acceptable. I am unsure whether a generic mount being added to the game for all players to obtain would be an acceptable solution at this point but I strongly hope they are working on a fair response to this issue.

> >

> > Why does it matter if someone does more dmg than you at Teq...or anywhere....it's not pvp where it can matter...

>

> While it's not as important for higher levels, each event, and in the Teq fight example, Experience and Karma are awarded for each completed battery stage based on the players performance at a gold, silver or copper level. Guess who now has a distinct advantage in gaining the gold level award. Experience and Karma matter and they are now being awarded differently due to the speed difference.

 

Each of those battery defense events are a fixed time in length. It doesn't matter that half the players get there sooner than the other half, because even those walking (and using the jump pads, which are available for everyone) have plenty of time to pick up Gold participation. Any number of players having mounts will not complete those events any faster.

 

As for actually fighting Tequatl? Even before mounts, everyone was stacked ready for him to land after each battery phase to burn him down.

 

All World Boss events, Tequatl included, saw **zero** actual change with mounts introduced. Nothing they do helps at all with those events.

[Soon.5240]

My only real wish regarding mounts is that we have one (1) mount that we can name, train, raise, customize, etc. Make the mount something that you care about.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @Zacchary.6183 said:

> There still is, but here is the thing. Before maps like the ones provided by HoT and PoF, the skeptics' views remained valid. Too many waypoints and too much access to swiftness made mounts an obnoxious vanity item. Now when you look at PoF maps there are only like 2-3 waypoints and half of the areas you need to get to are blocked off without the right mount. Mounts now have purpose. What you seem to not understand is that while you got your mounts, the skeptics won anyways.

 

All those things that give mounts purpose (less waypoints, blocked off areas accessible by mounts only), for me are a negative. If that's the price of having mounts, then i'd rather not have them. That was my main argument against mounts before they were introduced, and i still haven't changed my mind about it. Unfortunately, it seems that all my fears about consequnces of introducing mounts were completely justified.

 

There are several reasons why i don't rage against mounts in their threads lately. First is because they won't get removed, obviously. PoF is built around them to such a degree that removing them is just not possible without some massive rewriting of the whole expac. Second (and more important) reason however is that i have never actually had anything against mounts. What i had problems with was their impact on the rest of the game. So, if i were to complain, i'd be complaining not about mounts, but about things like not enough wp or mounts being a requirement for something.

 

In general, i just think that making the game worse so you can introduce something new as a wonderful "solution" to the problem you've just created yourself is a sign of a cheap, lazy and bad design. No matter what the problem is and how it's solved.

[Loosmaster.8263]

My issue was allowing them in the core game maps where they were not needed except for convienence /annoyance. Like others said, they're here so what's the point...

[JVJD.4912]

Compared to every other game, the mounts are handled absolutely beautiful in this game.

Ppl complaining are the ones who want non-realistic control like actual having the mount rotate with the mouse like a "Spinning top " instead of its current turning mechanic

 

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @Tekey.7946 said:

> The whole discussion about mounts seems to have shifted 180 degrees since Path of Fire.

Nope, there are discussions about the same things. There are threads still critiquing the very idea, for example:

* Mounts make JPs obsolete

* [Griffon makes gliding obsolete](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/161787#Comment_161787 "Griffon makes gliding obsolete")

* Mounts make WPs obsolete

* Mounts make mob difficulty obsolete

* There was even one in which someone said they need to be removed from HoT and Classic Tyria

 

You've participated in some of these threads. I'm not sure why you think they aren't around.

 

> Other than one thread (which dealt more with the griffon in particular), I couldn't see many people that are opposed to mounts anymore.

Even if I was still completely opposed, what's the point of saying so now? Mounts are in the game, ANet's not going to reverse themselves on the decision to include them. Better to ask them to change/update/fix/adjust things that there's an actual chance to be changed/updated/fixed/adjusted.

 

> I know there are several people who first thought mounts weren't a good idea but then changed their minds about it when they saw them (because of their special implementation and abilities in GW2). But I don't believe that **every single one** of them (hundreds or thousands of people) **drastically changed their minds** about them and no skeptics remained.

Good that you don't believe it, because that didn't happen.

 

> There were people who didn't want to see mounts at all and now we even have a griffon being able to fly infinitely if you do it right. Did they leave the game? Did they just accept it?

Again, it's moot: mounts are in the game; they aren't getting removed. Anti-mount people have four choices:

* Leave, to avoid the issue

* Ignore it, by sticking to HoT & Classic Tyria (in which there's still plenty to do)

* Accept it and make do.

* Resistance is futile; mounts are love, mounts are life.

 

None of those involve complaining loudly on the forums about it, although, as it turns out, we still have a few people trying to make the case that mounts should be removed.

 

FYI We don't have an "infinite fly" mount. We have the Griffon that can, under particular circumstances remain in the air indefinitely. It requires the right area and micromanagement.

 

> I just want to undestand the shift of opinions that happened within an **extremely short amount of time** - I just can't explain it by myself.

> **Are there still any mount skeptics left?**

 

My main objection to mounts was that (a) I don't see NPCs using mounts, so why should the PC? and (b) we have waypoints, why do we need mounts? Just because something is a cool feature in other games doesn't mean it needs to be present in _this_ game.

 

Well, clearly, we don't need mounts, but gosh, are they fun! I view the entire game differently now. (I remain wondrous at why we don't see NPCs riding mounts or gliding though; that's still an issue for me.)

 

tl;dr

There still are anti-mount people, but it's moot for them to spend that much time posting about it. It's a done deal.

[Jana.6831]

> @Vissarion.6509 said:

> > @PaxTheGreatOne.9472 said:

> > . The game has become so much smaller due to the expansion imploding the game....

> >

>

> It's been 5 years, do you think all the veterans that play all those years care about map completion? xD

>

> I mean i did it twice all those years and still find it tedious. At least now with mounts, it's faster and more enjoyable.

>

> New players will still need to do map completion without mounts anyway.

>

 

I did it 13 times (or maybe more). So yes, that was something I was doing.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @Tumult.2578 said:

> I'm not trying to imply a problem with mounts or that they shouldn't be in the game. I'm saying if they are going to be allowed in core Tyria and Hot, and affect everyone everywhere, then there needs to be a way to reach the same speeds without mounts, in core Tyria and Hot maps.

 

Thiefs & Revenants can easily reach the speed of basic mounts, which is about as fast as most folks can get in the middle of an event chain.

 

 

[Areala.6928]

I never saw much point in having mounts in a game where one could teleport pretty much anywhere. But now that they are here, the only thing I have noticed is that they put new players and those with low level characters at a huge disadvantage. Because of their great speed, players on mounts arrive at events much faster than everyone else and as such, will pretty much finish an event (dailies especially) before others can arrive. Perhaps it would be best to restrict the use of mounts in low level maps and give the newer players a chance to evolve and develop their own playing style.

[thrdeye.1028]

> @Tumult.2578 said:

> For example, doing the Teq World boss fight now consists of being constantly trampled or having several mounts standing on top of you, obstructing your view, and then when Teq arrives and those same players miss time their jump or dodge and are downed, they yell at you for not instantly rezzing them. Having to defend the batteries seems to have become a perfect example of pay to win because there is no way a non mount player can do equal damage to Teq and then get to the batteries and do equal damage there too and get back again. The mount speed difference is massive and allows doing more damage, for longer periods, and still get back in time to beat the non mount players back.

> While this should be fine in PoF maps, but I'm afraid it will destroy cooperative PvE if it remains unchanged. If you think this inaccurate, please try it without mounts and watch all the mounted players way off ahead of you in the distance already doing damage.

> I'm not trying to imply a problem with mounts or that they shouldn't be in the game. I'm saying if they are going to be allowed in core Tyria and Hot, and affect everyone everywhere, then there needs to be a way to reach the same speeds without mounts, in core Tyria and Hot maps. I do not understand how the speed difference can be considered acceptable. I am unsure whether a generic mount being added to the game for all players to obtain would be an acceptable solution at this point but I strongly hope they are working on a fair response to this issue.

 

I'm sorry, "trampled?" Is there some knockdown effect I've missed? If you're bothered by stacking on top of other players you're at the wrong event. Is there some special correlation between mounted players and those who refuse to rez and run back? That problem didn't appear last week. Is there any real benefit to doing more damage? Unless you were afk or arrived in the last five seconds of the fight, you got gold. I'm not aware of an fps meter that can accurately track all the participants in such an event so even bragging rights are purely theoretical. If anything, the mounted players are increasing the chance of success for everybody, including those without PoF. This isn't a raid where you get kicked if you don't have the mount. You show up, you put in a reasonable effort, you get the same rewards as anybody else.

 

I'm not saying there are no issues around mounts but presenting them as a "pay to win" mechanic is ridiculous. Game developers don't work for free. If you even want a game for anybody to win at, somebody needs to pay and Anet's arrangement is as fair as it gets. They've offered a constantly evolving world with two paid expansions over a five year period, all without a monthly fee. If you can show me another MMO that offers as much value as GW2 does to those who purchased the core game and nothing else, I'd love to hear about it.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I suspect that a lot of vehemently anti-mount people left now that there are mounts. Waves of people quit each time the expansion adds something new, so in all likelihood any apparent absence of complaints come from the complainers making good on their promise.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

Maybe people realize that ANet is not going to reverse their decision and implementation after using mounts as a major selling point for the XPac. It wouldn't be the first time that sanity prevailed on the internet, though I might have trouble coming up with more than 1 or 2 other examples. :o

[Fluffball.8307]

I was a mount skeptic, using the definition that we're missing here: "a person inclined to question or doubt all accepted opinions." I did not automatically assume mounts were amazing. I have been enjoying them. Also the expac was built with mounts in mind. Mounts in core Tyria are somewhere between a distraction to game-breaking.

[Yargesh.4965]

I am also still here, still think it was an incredible waste of resources.

They are here in game now and no point in continuing like some disappointed 2 year old though.

[chocakwartz.2057]

I still very much dislike them and never use them unless the game forces me to, but I'm not going to complain about them when it would be pretty much useless to do so.

 

Some (most?) people enjoy them an they're not going anywhere, I'll live with it.

[Ahlen.7591]

I'm still extremely against the Griffin mount. I think it was a terribly bad decision to add it to the game and that it is going to have lasting consequences, especially for future content.

[Meestercat.2748]

> @Areala.6928 said:

> I never saw much point in having mounts in a game where one could teleport pretty much anywhere. But now that they are here, the only thing I have noticed is that they put new players and those with low level characters at a huge disadvantage. Because of their great speed, players on mounts arrive at events much faster than everyone else and as such, will pretty much finish an event (dailies especially) before others can arrive. Perhaps it would be best to restrict the use of mounts in low level maps and give the newer players a chance to evolve and develop their own playing style.

 

This was my only real concern about Mounts. I’ve witnessed this in Kessex doing dailies, and I really felt sorry for the obviously newer players - mounted players roaming ahead of the escort npc killing everything before the new guys could tag.

[Dante.1763]

> @Meestercat.2748 said:

> > @Areala.6928 said:

> > I never saw much point in having mounts in a game where one could teleport pretty much anywhere. But now that they are here, the only thing I have noticed is that they put new players and those with low level characters at a huge disadvantage. Because of their great speed, players on mounts arrive at events much faster than everyone else and as such, will pretty much finish an event (dailies especially) before others can arrive. Perhaps it would be best to restrict the use of mounts in low level maps and give the newer players a chance to evolve and develop their own playing style.

>

> This was my only real concern about Mounts. I’ve witnessed this in Kessex doing dailies, and I really felt sorry for the obviously newer players - mounted players roaming ahead of the escort npc killing everything before the new guys could tag.

 

My favorite thing is that people dont see it as a problem, when it very much so is an issue.

[CptAurellian.9537]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> I can't speak for others, but as for myself, I'd have to say that I was only thinking about how mounts are handled in other games. Mounts in GW2 were handled **right**. Yeah, they're a speed boost, but between the unique handling and the utilitarian focus, ANet definitely built the best mount system in gaming today.

 

Pretty much my thoughts. The first demo weekend already indicated that they had done mounts right, which was a welcome surprise.

[pho.9412]

well Anet arrange the maps in such a way that we need mounts. I don't think I can explore PoF without a mount. so not complaining. but I was skeptical about the mounts before. with the new map design, its awesome because mounts are needed, and not just for aesthetic purpose only.