Why are medium armor classes not good in zergs?

[ArchonWing.9480]

> @"borgs.6103" said:

> > @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > > I think it is mainly because most pug and guild commanders rarely think out of the box or don't have the players with skills on medium classes to make a difference.

> >

> > You aren't wrong. But considering Anet loves to destroy niche builds with nerfs as collaterial damage, this really limits any kind of thinking out of the box since our genius balance team thinks otherwise.

> >

> > That being said I'm even surprised they made engineer useful and even sought after in zergs. Must be a moment of clarity.

>

> Then as collateral damage from Holosmith nerfs, the scrapper build that was welcome in zergs got nerfed.

 

I know.; As I suggested in the first post But then again they also nerfed scrapper directly, so who knows what they are thinking.

[Balthazzarr.1349]

> @"Hitman.5829" said:

> > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > > > > I think it is mainly because most pug and guild commanders rarely think out of the box or don't have the players with skills on medium classes to make a difference.

> > > > > They stick with the tried and tested necro guard combo which also happens to be easy for players to pick up.

> > > > > People rarely like change and don't move outside their comfort zone.

> > > >

> > > > Ok so what do you swap out? Herald for soulbeast? Chrono for deadeye?

> > >

> > > Could work =)

> > > I would give it a spin and maybe change engagement styles to suit the comp!

> >

> > I just thought of a good strategy!

> > Soulbeast and Deadeyes excel at spike damage.

> > 40-50 soulbeast+ Deadeyes could stack invis from far, then approach the enemy zerg without them being aware, and attack their tail with one-shot high spike damage.

> > Soulbeast and deadeyes all can open with 20K+ damage from stealth.

> > 40-50 soulbeasts + deadeyes one-shotting the entire enemy backline and cleaving them to death before disengaging easily with their superior mobility!

>

> Just horrible strategy, the only classes that excel at serg combat are warrior and guardian.

> I would suggest a serg with 25 guardians and 25 warriors to melee train the **BLIP** out of the other serg.

> I don't know why people are still running the pirate ship bull shiito, that is old and boring!

>

> A serg composed of 25 warriors and 25 guardians will destroy any serg.

> Melee classes are extremely overpowered in sergs, the fact that people don't play them just shows how many noobs are there in the game that like to press buttons and deal damage at a range.

 

ah that's kind of harsh. I guess after 6 years of wvw and playing every class maxed out... and still deciding I love my Ranger now Soulbeast the best, makes me a noob. ok then, I guess I'm a pirate. You can stain me all you like but in the end it's what I like to do. It's MY fun in this game. It should not be disparaged just because as good as you are I can still take you down if you're not very very good. and.. yuck! how boring it would be if we all just ran warriors and guardians.. ugh ugh ugh... and I'm the 'noob'? bah

[DragonSlayer.1087]

Soulbeasts with Stances are powerful in Zergs, especially the Elite Stance that basically doubles the damage of scourges.

[dynomite.5834]

As an ex-Warrior and Rev (played each for years), I like my Ranger too. On the "old" Mag, we used to chew through the murderballs of Warr/Guard like butter. They're actually not that good against a group that knows how to play. The cloud takes them down quite easily.

[Celsith.2753]

> @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

 

> 40-50 soulbeasts + deadeyes reflecting themelves to death before disengaging easily with their superior mobility!

 

Fixed that for you

 

 

[EremiteAngel.9765]

> @"Celsith.2753" said:

> > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

>

> > 40-50 soulbeasts + deadeyes reflecting themelves to death before disengaging easily with their superior mobility!

>

> Fixed that for you

>

>

 

You missed the part where I said they would engage from invis with Maul + Worldly Impact & Backstab + Daggerstorm haha...

[Celsith.2753]

> @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > @"Celsith.2753" said:

> > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> >

> > > 40-50 soulbeasts + deadeyes reflecting themelves to death before disengaging easily with their superior mobility!

> >

> > Fixed that for you

> >

> >

>

> You missed the part where I said they would engage from invis with Maul + Worldly Impact & Backstab + Daggerstorm haha...

 

Except that cant happen because watchtowers stealth traps and painter tricks.

[juno.1840]

> @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > @"Celsith.2753" said:

> > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> >

> > > 40-50 soulbeasts + deadeyes reflecting themelves to death before disengaging easily with their superior mobility!

> >

> > Fixed that for you

> >

> >

>

> You missed the part where I said they would engage from invis with Maul + Worldly Impact & Backstab + Daggerstorm haha...

 

A good zerg will see you coming from far before you stealth... draw out your stealth... turn and crush you with massive bombs, good defenses, and superspeed to keep on top of you after you break. Unless you plan is to use all your escapes to disengage, at which point you then achieved nothing.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

But, is there not some sort equilibrium here that the three professions that are not wanted in zergs (Thieves, Rangers, Engineers) also happen to be amongst the BEST duelist and roamer professions? The exception of course is the Mesmer, but isn't Mesmer always the exception?

 

Also, while I agree Thieves, Rangers and Holos don't offer much to a zerg that can't be done better by a Herald, Ele or Scourge, I have to object to the notion that Medi-Scrapper isn't wanted. On the contrary, I see lots of commanders asking for them in their squad. It sucks that the Gyro nerf happened, but even after that, they still offer a ton of healing throughput and reverse boon-corrupt, which IMO is better than condi cleanse.

 

It's also a very simple role to play, so the entry level for new players is low compared to a Firebrand. I'm not going to argue the math about whether a raid spot would be better filled by a FB or Water Ele, but I've been playing Medi Scrapper more and more lately, and not only is it very fun, but I've seen the difference it makes in fights.

 

Pretty useless in a PPT/Karma train though, and it sucks at bag farming since no ret / reflect, but if you're following a fightmander, it's hella fun to play. Just my 2 copper.

[Israel.7056]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> But, is there not some sort equilibrium here that the three professions that are not wanted in zergs (Thieves, Rangers, Engineers) also happen to be amongst the BEST duelist and roamer professions? The exception of course is the Mesmer, but isn't Mesmer always the exception?

>

> Also, while I agree Thieves, Rangers and Holos don't offer much to a zerg that can't be done better by a Herald, Ele or Scourge, I have to object to the notion that Medi-Scrapper isn't wanted. On the contrary, I see lots of commanders asking for them in their squad. It sucks that the Gyro nerf happened, but even after that, they still offer a ton of healing throughput and reverse boon-corrupt, which IMO is better than condi cleanse.

>

> It's also a very simple role to play, so the entry level for new players is low compared to a Firebrand. I'm not going to argue the math about whether a raid spot would be better filled by a FB or Water Ele, but I've been playing Medi Scrapper more and more lately, and not only is it very fun, but I've seen the difference it makes in fights.

>

> Pretty useless in a PPT/Karma train though, and it sucks at bag farming since no ret / reflect, but if you're following a fightmander, it's hella fun to play. Just my 2 copper.

 

Engi is pretty much mandatory now imo so the only two classes still without a place in medium to large scale play are thief and ranger and both for essentially the same reason.

[Sylosi.6503]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> But, is there not some sort equilibrium here that the three professions that are not wanted in zergs (Thieves, Rangers, Engineers) also happen to be amongst the BEST duelist and roamer professions? The exception of course is the Mesmer, but isn't Mesmer always the exception?

 

Except it's not really just mesmer as the exception, for instance when it comes to roaming warrior has often been very good, for much of the game about equal or better than say engy, yet has done much better when it comes to zergs. (and guilds)

 

> Also, while I agree Thieves, Rangers and Holos don't offer much to a zerg that can't be done better by a Herald, Ele or Scourge, I have to object to the notion that Medi-Scrapper isn't wanted. On the contrary, I see lots of commanders asking for them in their squad. It sucks that the Gyro nerf happened, but even after that, they still offer a ton of healing throughput and reverse boon-corrupt, which IMO is better than condi cleanse.

 

Maybe where you play (NA?), but to take an example from EU on the best "fighting" server a week before they even nerfed medi scrapper the commander (one of the few decent ones still left in the game) said for people not to bring scrapper and that was before the nerf.

 

The ironically titled 'balance' for zergs is basically Guard, Necro and Rev, everything else is merely optional, varying degrees of subpar to those three and only ever wanted in far smaller numbers (maybe if it were less pirate shippy then other things would actually matter more and also people would not die of boredom on things like warrior).

 

 

 

[reddie.5861]

> @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > > > > I think it is mainly because most pug and guild commanders rarely think out of the box or don't have the players with skills on medium classes to make a difference.

> > > > > They stick with the tried and tested necro guard combo which also happens to be easy for players to pick up.

> > > > > People rarely like change and don't move outside their comfort zone.

> > > >

> > > > Ok so what do you swap out? Herald for soulbeast? Chrono for deadeye?

> > >

> > > Could work =)

> > > I would give it a spin and maybe change engagement styles to suit the comp!

> >

> > I just thought of a good strategy!

> > Soulbeast and Deadeyes excel at spike damage.

> > 40-50 soulbeast+ Deadeyes could stack invis from far, then approach the enemy zerg without them being aware, and attack their tail with one-shot high spike damage.

> > Soulbeast and deadeyes all can open with 20K+ damage from stealth.

> > 40-50 soulbeasts + deadeyes one-shotting the entire enemy backline and cleaving them to death before disengaging easily with their superior mobility!

>

> and there you have just supported my opinion:

> stealth must be removed from the game.

>

> thanks *g*

 

40 50 sb/DE's keep running out of range but lurking on enemy side/back line.

at some point commander gets tired of it and moves on and there u go deadeyes and soulbeast take massive chunk out of their backline weaking em to point they cant win anymore and get clouded to dead.

 

okay now? stealth is not the problem in this game.

[reddie.5861]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> But, is there not some sort equilibrium here that the three professions that are not wanted in zergs (Thieves, Rangers, Engineers) also happen to be amongst the BEST duelist and roamer professions? The exception of course is the Mesmer, but isn't Mesmer always the exception?

>

> Also, while I agree Thieves, Rangers and Holos don't offer much to a zerg that can't be done better by a Herald, Ele or Scourge, I have to object to the notion that Medi-Scrapper isn't wanted. On the contrary, I see lots of commanders asking for them in their squad. It sucks that the Gyro nerf happened, but even after that, they still offer a ton of healing throughput and reverse boon-corrupt, which IMO is better than condi cleanse.

>

> It's also a very simple role to play, so the entry level for new players is low compared to a Firebrand. I'm not going to argue the math about whether a raid spot would be better filled by a FB or Water Ele, but I've been playing Medi Scrapper more and more lately, and not only is it very fun, but I've seen the difference it makes in fights.

>

> Pretty useless in a PPT/Karma train though, and it sucks at bag farming since no ret / reflect, but if you're following a fightmander, it's hella fun to play. Just my 2 copper.

 

thief is far from best dueling class nowadays lol.

what can thief beat nowadays?

a mesmer and necro maybe? rest will just out sustain you or wreck you.

 

anet has turned thief into a wet noodle, yes balancing thief on hp punch bag standing still and get 100 of boons pumped up your ass its easy to say thief is balanced.

but when u shove a pair of brains in ur "hp punch bag" thief will lose just about 3/4 of his DPS.

i cant just wack 11111 in duel with staff or w/e is raid using for thief i cant ram on all dps skill/trait lines in wvw and get rid of every single deffensive ability (barely have any but still).

 

thief used to be good and is still good when u fight a guy who doesnt know thief good yet. but if u have played thief u shouldnt have much of a issue smashing them down to ground in a 1v1.

[subversiontwo.7501]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> Sure there are some staff teefs, droods, and the occasional holo, but lets get real... I think some medium armor specs have some great qualities: drood burst heal, staff teef damage, holo aoe burst. In your opinion what has to happen for these professions specializations (hot or pof) to become viable?

 

**Core specs:**

* Available weapons often had either shorter reach or smaller cleave (no cleave), making them more fit for smaller scale

* Rangers disliked then as now, Engineers too few to be noticable, Thieves able to play off-tag (meta, playerbase experience) in vanilla

 

**Elite specs:**

* Staves and Hammers put both DD, Druid and Scrappers into larger scale meta for stretches of time in HoT (from GvG to blob)

* DD can still be very useful in the right hands but requires experience and leadership to play off-tag, both resources are less available now

* Druid/Beast can be played as ranged support but requires experience (class, off-tag), leadership (lead a party) and sparse use (leads Ele, Rev etc.)

 

Beast/Holo could see secondary melee roles but 1) Squads/tactics are seldom melee heavy, 2) Breakers can be doubled up, 3) Holo may be more favourable as Scrapper for simplicity and purity of purpose, 4) Secondary melee may be less favourable to secondary support overall (not just Scrapper, but gear on Scrapper or other classes) and 5) Commanders are human and tend to, even if employing melee tactics, build balanced groups and let eg., Scourges fill secondary damage spots out of sheer routine or availability of players.

 

Overall, the reasons are the same as always when these threads appear. Meta is not a measurement of what is good or what works. It is a measurement of what is simple and reliable to use for herding cats (effective even when under-performing). There are alot of things that impact the meta (reach and cleave for example) but never underestimate the appeal in classes that thrive on just sticking on the tag and lose less efficiency if not enough buttons are pushed. That makes more for larger scale meta and popularity than one would think and is not really anything that ArenaNet can balance around.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"reddie.5861" said:

> > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > But, is there not some sort equilibrium here that the three professions that are not wanted in zergs (Thieves, Rangers, Engineers) also happen to be amongst the BEST duelist and roamer professions? The exception of course is the Mesmer, but isn't Mesmer always the exception?

> >

> > Also, while I agree Thieves, Rangers and Holos don't offer much to a zerg that can't be done better by a Herald, Ele or Scourge, I have to object to the notion that Medi-Scrapper isn't wanted. On the contrary, I see lots of commanders asking for them in their squad. It sucks that the Gyro nerf happened, but even after that, they still offer a ton of healing throughput and reverse boon-corrupt, which IMO is better than condi cleanse.

> >

> > It's also a very simple role to play, so the entry level for new players is low compared to a Firebrand. I'm not going to argue the math about whether a raid spot would be better filled by a FB or Water Ele, but I've been playing Medi Scrapper more and more lately, and not only is it very fun, but I've seen the difference it makes in fights.

> >

> > Pretty useless in a PPT/Karma train though, and it sucks at bag farming since no ret / reflect, but if you're following a fightmander, it's hella fun to play. Just my 2 copper.

>

> thief is far from best dueling class nowadays lol.

> what can thief beat nowadays?

> a mesmer and necro maybe? rest will just out sustain you or wreck you.

>

> anet has turned thief into a wet noodle, yes balancing thief on hp punch bag standing still and get 100 of boons pumped up your kitten its easy to say thief is balanced.

> but when u shove a pair of brains in ur "hp punch bag" thief will lose just about 3/4 of his DPS.

> i cant just wack 11111 in duel with staff or w/e is raid using for thief i cant ram on all dps skill/trait lines in wvw and get rid of every single deffensive ability (barely have any but still).

>

> thief used to be good and is still good when u fight a guy who doesnt know thief good yet. but if u have played thief u shouldnt have much of a issue smashing them down to ground in a 1v1.

 

I think DE stealth cheese builds combined with the fact that people that don’t play thief can’t let go of the good ol days when thief could actually burst a good player and down them in a duel if the thief was good, and was fair because it had low hp and relied on evasions as it’s only way to sustain itself. Unfortunately people can’t stand being out played even if learning how to fight the class was easily possible and just as expected cried for nurfs lol and now these new players that are still learning or are at half hp etc gets +1 bursted by a thief and hears all the info from non thief players that go on about thief like they still actually hit hard compared to their low hp hits like a noodle,non DE I mean. I find it interesting a class given the +1 role in pvp because it can’t 1v1 any class if players of equal skill is still called out as op in duals,it’s expected tho lol.a +1 decap class is that for a reason lol not cuz they choose to be

[oOStaticOo.9467]

Let's be honest here. I don't mind losing. I know somebody will always be better, faster, or use macros/hacks to beat me. I accept that. What I can't accept is running along and then BOOM!! out of nowhere I go down because some Thief Malicious Backstabbed me out of Stealth that I NEVER saw coming. Stealth deaths give your opponent NO opportunity to prepare or even retaliate. And THAT is not cool. Especially to new people to the game. There is no learning curve there. Just instant confusion, frustration, anger, and rage. Stealth is such a lazy mechanic. There is no real strategy involved. You Stealth, you sneak up on your unsuspecting opponent, you kill them. That's it. Very low risk and all the reward.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Yeah a core thief or DD that does any significant damage is not only glassy but as glassy as u can be and for u to loose a significant amount of hp u must be glassy to, with all the boons invulnerability and blocks classes like ranger,warrior,holo list goes on and fact that their all tankier ontop of doing same damage aaaaand having more sustain ur saying that thief should have slightly more mobility,just ok damage and so little sustain that evading and often resets are needed to live is fair? Lol than ontop people complain that they can reset like wow why not not just make it so thief cant defend itself and just stands there with a smile to take its beating lol than people be happy. Now keep in mind I’m excluding DE stealth cheese builds, stealth should be a lot more limited to this ef and only accessible to thief

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Rouge thief concepts are always similar they are low hp,have low access to skills that give sustain and have to rely on mobility and quick damage spikes to down a opponent, if the damage spike isn’t enough to down opponents it is useless and no point in fighting any 1v1 which damage nurfs have now turned it into a +1 class which is crazy because the point is having high damage with fast burst to balance the low sustain and hp lol

[syszery.1592]

I think the problem is more like _what is meta_ than which classes/builds perform how well... I mean it is the same in PvE where basically one guild decides about the current meta build/comp and the whole community accepts that - and players who refuse to play these builds simply aren't welcome. The same is true for PvP and also WvW. And it is even more ridiculous because players who actually are really good on their classes are more helpful than people who just copied a build without understanding it.

 

Don't get me wrong: These meta builds certainly have many advantages and they for sure works and do great in fulfilling their purpose - _if played correctly_ - and I can perfectly understand commanders who say that they prefer a _safe_ comp over anything else. I just think that the community (sometimes at least) could be a bit more open minded :-)

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> Yeah a core thief or DD that does any significant damage is not only glassy but as glassy as u can be and for u to loose a significant amount of hp u must be glassy to, with all the boons invulnerability and blocks classes like ranger,warrior,holo list goes on and fact that their all tankier ontop of doing same damage aaaaand having more sustain ur saying that thief should have slightly more mobility,just ok damage and so little sustain that evading and often resets are needed to live is fair? Lol than ontop people complain that they can reset like wow why not not just make it so thief cant defend itself and just stands there with a smile to take its beating lol than people be happy. Now keep in mind I’m excluding DE stealth cheese builds, stealth should be a lot more limited to this ef and only accessible to thief

 

you can complain all day about thief being bad. if you exclude DE for this then it doesnt matter, because then you say yourself that thief is ok. do you see warriors complaining about the poor state of their profession because of berserkers?

[syszery.1592]

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> Let's be honest here. I don't mind losing. I know somebody will always be better, faster, or use macros/hacks to beat me. I accept that. What I can't accept is running along and then BOOM!! out of nowhere I go down because some Thief Malicious Backstabbed me out of Stealth that I NEVER saw coming. Stealth deaths give your opponent NO opportunity to prepare or even retaliate. And THAT is not cool. Especially to new people to the game. There is no learning curve there. Just instant confusion, frustration, anger, and rage. Stealth is such a lazy mechanic. There is no real strategy involved. You Stealth, you sneak up on your unsuspecting opponent, you kill them. That's it. Very low risk and all the reward.

 

Play _Rune of Durability_ (and maybe one defensive stat) and no thief -- even full berserker+stacks+food+infusions -- will ever be able to one-shot you with malicious backstab...

 

Edit: If you do so you will for sure survive (in case you react to the damage at least) and you could e.g. just run away because deadeye usually has poor mobility compared to many other builds or counter burst because most classes also have better sustain...

[Psycoprophet.8107]

People need to accept they have more blocks,invulnerability skills,most classes got their mobility buffed,way more sustain,hp and even same access to high damage spikes for shit sakes haha,yeah getting backstabbed is a annoying way to take damage but that’s thief no? Take that away and not buff it’s dueling potential it’s just left with running away

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > Yeah a core thief or DD that does any significant damage is not only glassy but as glassy as u can be and for u to loose a significant amount of hp u must be glassy to, with all the boons invulnerability and blocks classes like ranger,warrior,holo list goes on and fact that their all tankier ontop of doing same damage aaaaand having more sustain ur saying that thief should have slightly more mobility,just ok damage and so little sustain that evading and often resets are needed to live is fair? Lol than ontop people complain that they can reset like wow why not not just make it so thief cant defend itself and just stands there with a smile to take its beating lol than people be happy. Now keep in mind I’m excluding DE stealth cheese builds, stealth should be a lot more limited to this ef and only accessible to thief

>

> you can complain all day about thief being bad. if you exclude DE for this then it doesnt matter, because then you say yourself that thief is ok. do you see warriors complaining about the poor state of their profession because of berserkers?

 

Yes I have seen a lot of warriors complain about state of warriors due to berserkers and I exclude the DE because it is cheese and uses mechanics core and DD don’t use, completely different playstyle and damage compared to core and DD and those two keep getting gutted because of nurf cries about DE, eventually all thief players will have to play DE to get kills and see the cries than Lol it’s almost to that point now, It’s pretty strange to think that a class with three different specs with three different playstyle is based only off of one spec as far as balance goes no?

[Psycoprophet.8107]

DE is cheese and is strong but core and DD are not ok and are underperforming right now and should not be left like that just because DE needs some further stealth restrictions, and I feel the same for warriors and other specs who have specs that are underperforming especially if the other specs are being gutted because of one of the three specs are overtuned

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> DE is cheese and is strong but core and DD are not ok and are underperforming right now and should not be left like that just because DE needs some further stealth restrictions, and I feel the same for warriors and other specs who have specs that are underperforming especially if the other specs are being gutted because of one of the three specs are overtuned

 

DE was considered by most as trash when PoF was released. then they redesigned it making it stronger while also forcing them to play a little more visible. now any change you add to core will affect DE, wich means if you want to buff core without deadeye you would need to add synergies that require 3 traitlines. as for DD.. well that is our evasion focused spec, i prefer fighting against stealth spamm over evasion spamm any day so i dont really care about daredevil.