Why are medium armor classes not good in zergs?

[AlexVv.3965]

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> THIEFS are not OP. STEALTH is OP. I am fine with Thief if they rework their play style to not involve Stealth. I get that Thieves are dodgy/evady characters and can accept that better than I can completely invisible kill from out of nowhere. As I said, there is just absolutely no counter play to that. Just BOOM! Dead! You never see it coming and you never see it leaving either. Not to mention that you can't even interrupt the stomp because they are stealthed as well! How do you not see someone standing on top of you and jumping in the air to punch you in the face!? Stealth is absurd in this game.

 

I totally agree.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"AlexVv.3965" said:

> > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> > THIEFS are not OP. STEALTH is OP. I am fine with Thief if they rework their play style to not involve Stealth. I get that Thieves are dodgy/evady characters and can accept that better than I can completely invisible kill from out of nowhere. As I said, there is just absolutely no counter play to that. Just BOOM! Dead! You never see it coming and you never see it leaving either. Not to mention that you can't even interrupt the stomp because they are stealthed as well! How do you not see someone standing on top of you and jumping in the air to punch you in the face!? Stealth is absurd in this game.

>

> I totally agree.

Anet obviously dont though as they made DE stealth on dodge instead for even easier permastealth.

 

It would be sort of the same like making a guardian get a lootbag on dodge.

 

Damn I want that trait. It would be nice fighting a thief and getting 20 lootbags, even if he kills you.

 

[AlexVv.3965]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

 

> Anet obviously dont though as they made DE stealth on dodge instead for even easier permastealth.

>

> It would be sort of the same like making a guardian get a lootbag on dodge.

>

> kitten I want that trait. It would be nice fighting a thief and getting 20 lootbags, even if he kills you.

>

 

))) Yes it would be nice)

 

[syszery.1592]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> Anet obviously dont though as they made DE stealth on dodge instead for even easier permastealth.

>

> It would be sort of the same like making a guardian get a lootbag on dodge.

>

> kitten I want that trait. It would be nice fighting a thief and getting 20 lootbags, even if he kills you.

>

 

Guardian gets [heal](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Selfless_Daring "heal") on dodge. Nevertheless, I agree that dodge on stealth is not good for the game... I'd gladly take back the old deadeye.

[Acyk.9671]

Daredevil can be reliably used in a 10-20 men comp (top dps). In zergs, it comes from commanders not trusting pugs to play it well in large scale but you might see some players from gvg guilds playing daredevil in zergs (2 max?).

Scrapper has a meta support build with best heal/cleanse but no more than 3 in 50. Too bad they nerfed superspeed and stab.

Everything that Ranger is good at can be done better by other classes/specs. Soulbeast's stances are interesting but the main problem of ranger is the lack of a good usable weapon beside greatsword. It's either projectile or low target cap and the pet swap thingy is not really suited for large scale...

 

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"AlexVv.3965" said:

> > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> > > THIEFS are not OP. STEALTH is OP. I am fine with Thief if they rework their play style to not involve Stealth. I get that Thieves are dodgy/evady characters and can accept that better than I can completely invisible kill from out of nowhere. As I said, there is just absolutely no counter play to that. Just BOOM! Dead! You never see it coming and you never see it leaving either. Not to mention that you can't even interrupt the stomp because they are stealthed as well! How do you not see someone standing on top of you and jumping in the air to punch you in the face!? Stealth is absurd in this game.

> >

> > I totally agree.

> Anet obviously dont though as they made DE stealth on dodge instead for even easier permastealth.

>

> It would be sort of the same like making a guardian get a lootbag on dodge.

>

> kitten I want that trait. It would be nice fighting a thief and getting **20 lootbags,** even if he kills you.

>

 

That was guardian staff one in Zergs prior to the change.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"syszery.1592" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > Anet obviously dont though as they made DE stealth on dodge instead for even easier permastealth.

> >

> > It would be sort of the same like making a guardian get a lootbag on dodge.

> >

> > kitten I want that trait. It would be nice fighting a thief and getting 20 lootbags, even if he kills you.

> >

>

> Guardian gets [heal](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Selfless_Daring "heal") on dodge. Nevertheless, I agree that dodge on stealth is not good for the game... I'd gladly take back the old deadeye.

Having another trait with dodge on stealth in addition to stealth on dodge would be... fun. With no icd it would just be thieves rolling around in stealth everywhere, unable to attack anything.

[Artaz.3819]

> @"Acyk.9671" said:

> Daredevil can be reliably used in a 10-20 men comp (top dps). In zergs, it comes from commanders not trusting pugs to play it well in large scale but you might see some players from gvg guilds playing daredevil in zergs (2 max?).

> Scrapper has a meta support build with best heal/cleanse but no more than 3 in 50. Too bad they nerfed superspeed and stab.

> Everything that Ranger is good at can be done better by other classes/specs. Soulbeast's stances are interesting but the main problem of ranger is the lack of a good usable weapon beside greatsword. It's either projectile or low target cap and the pet swap thingy is not really suited for large scale...

>

 

Soulbeast is not in a bad place right now and can be adapted for more zerg play pretty easily. Beastmode provides statistically superior attributes (support side is very strong) but in order to use SB for zergs, you can't get lazy and not use the enter/exit SB/swap pets. The main reason is the extra Beast abilities and the unblockable (no reflect) to circumvent projectile weapon issues. I agree, GS is good for burst/cleave and defense/travel but not exactly the best for staying in beyond those.

 

The issue is a lot of Soulbeast players are just plain lazy honestly and want to spam Longbow from afar. Greatsword is good but Axe/ or Sword/Warhorn with stances ... the Boonbeast (PvP) with some trait/rune tweaks for WvW is really strong and checks the zerg support/offensive spike boxes.

[syszery.1592]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"syszery.1592" said:

> > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > Anet obviously dont though as they made DE stealth on dodge instead for even easier permastealth.

> > >

> > > It would be sort of the same like making a guardian get a lootbag on dodge.

> > >

> > > kitten I want that trait. It would be nice fighting a thief and getting 20 lootbags, even if he kills you.

> > >

> >

> > Guardian gets [heal](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Selfless_Daring "heal") on dodge. Nevertheless, I agree that dodge on stealth is not good for the game... I'd gladly take back the old deadeye.

> Having another trait with dodge on stealth in addition to stealth on dodge would be... fun. With no icd it would just be thieves rolling around in stealth everywhere, unable to attack anything.

 

Hahaha I obviously mistyped but anyway: Return of the perma-dodge thief :trollface:

[aspirine.6852]

Perhaps if they nerf the current classes, but that will cause an uproar from the players.

The mediums just do not bring that much to the zerg table, and wvw is zerg only now.

[Trajan.4953]

> @"aspirine.6852" said:

> Perhaps if they nerf the current classes, but that will cause an uproar from the players.

> The mediums just do not bring that much to the zerg table, and wvw is zerg only now.

 

Linkings and power creep really brought about the Age of the Zerg. Was a time you had many smaller guilds running around as well as the obligatory blob. Not so much anymore.

[Israel.7056]

> @"Trajan.4953" said:

> Linkings and power creep really brought about the Age of the Zerg. Was a time you had many smaller guilds running around as well as the obligatory blob. Not so much anymore.

 

Think that has more to do with pubg than linkings or power creep tbh.

[messiah.1908]

in a zerg fight you can see thief and ranger working with the group. they just work aloe sniping ppl and finishing the low hp enemies from the sides.

so they dont have a party as they are self sufficient. they have self boons and way to self defend.

it doesnt mean they are not needed.

 

when i zerg with a group we usually hate the fact the enemy zerg has a small squad of ranger thief which cloud us ....

 

thus in a group the light armor needs the heavy armor to support them

 

back in the day i played a thief who scout and kill the backline or sideline of the zerg... its great fun job.

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

As an author of couple Zerger Ranger builds over time I'd say that at least as far as ranger is concerned, it would be probably mixture of utility mismatched to current meta, awkward list of utilities it can provide, and being outdone in what it does by other classes.

 

To provide one example (albeit very old because ironically that's the one I remember best):

My first dedicated zerging ranger build was tailored and playtested pre-HoT by a decent margin. It was running full survivability, GS, and traps (knights stats if memory serves, with traits in wildernes survival, nature's magic, and I forgot the rest.....)

 

So with GS auto having evade frame in it, high toughtness, and very decent defensive abilities, it had very good survivability in zerg clashes, it's damage was varying from good to decent, depending on wether group had proper might upkeep or not (one of assumptions was that with 25 stacks of might everyone can do needed damage, as it was the case at that point in time and tiers in which it was tested) with it's unique utility being unblockable pbaoe damage from traps.

 

Build in testing was sufficient for commanders to accept me running it, but in the long run (and especially nowadays) it wouldn't end up in meta at any point due to following reasons (mostly):

1. It was pretty much a melee build (mismatch of meta, altho melee trains were resurfacing every now and then - nowadays it's closest recreation would be useless in most fights due to that tho)

2. Aside of high survivability to survive melee push (that was adequate for the time, unsure how it would even fare on this front nowadays) and unblockable aoe in melee it provided pretty much no other utility to the group (was even then outdone by most of other builds with similar area of expertise)

3. Wells necro could at the time do everything this build could and do it better.

 

And similar pattern was repeating each time I came back with another build. For mainstay zerg force no matter what said build could do, it would either do a good job at different meta (much later zerg soulbeast build I was playing with would be perfectly fit to the meta of the time when build above was created, but has similar issues in today's), it doesn't provide sufficient utilities to justify it's main area performance, and in that main area of performance it would be outdone by something else.

 

Please note I mentioned "mainstay zerg force" because I do understand that there are pretty good builds for focus party ranger, but I didn't play along that role enought to judge it there.

 

That's just one narrow bit of perspective but I hope it may shed some light onto the OPs question ;)