Cyninja.2954 Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > The problem with racials is that they are race exclusive and depending on balance ppl could be feel forced to play some specific race, and limiting them only to ow would be a waste imho. > > > > > > Not discounting your point, but for discussion purposes, I'd like to argue it. > > > > > > Is it really a bad thing to "feel forced" to play a specific race if its in a game mode that doesn't impact others? Consider that people already feel forced to play specific professions for specific content. Or use specific builds. Or even feel forced to play specific content. So what is the actual cost-benefit of compelling players to play specific races in open world gameplay? I'm sure one could point to imbalance for certain events but even then, who actually cares? No one can tell you what you NEED to play in open world nor can you be pressured. > > > > > > > The fact that current balance is not ideal or that true balance in general might be unachievable is no good argument to intentionally add even more unbalance and parts to the equation. > > > > Why is it not a good argument? > > You can say it is but then ignore the discussion point of what I presented, to which then why even bother replying to my point if you're just going to ignore what I'm asking? I'll ask you again though: Who would care? Who would actually care that you might feel slighted that your Asura warrior might not be as effective in a certain open world event than a Sylvari warrior? And further still, who shoulders the cost of that concern? Every person who might be min/maxing. Given how obsessed people are with meta builds, there is enough who would be displeased. Now add in the non existent ability to remedie this situation (no race changes available, no free characters available) and I don't think I have to engage this point any longer. Causing more unbalance only because balance might not be perfect is simply not a good argument. As far as implementing this for open world only (which would again require changes to the system overall). I remain by what I said: they are unwilling to make changes to the system based on the simple fact that they do not want to devote resources to this > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > Especially when those parts are part of a feature which was intentionally designed to not conflict in the first place. > > > > To this, I ask you to answer the question in my second paragraph. > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > Not sure Arenanet has the will to devote man power to such a task when the net result will automatically be something which to some extent will create unhappy players. > > > > Why would you automatically assume that? And while I can understand the position of a realist in discussions like these, it's rather beside the point, IMO, to dwell on trivialities when I believe the discussion could focus on what could be done vs what won't. I already said that I do not consider any thing HAS to be done. I already mentioned how I am a fan of the "make racial abilities available to every race" (via that skill point system maybe). I do not consider opening up racial based abilities (which are currently sitting at 30+ abilities separated even further down into class backstory choices) to re-balance even a remote possibility. Even more so when 1 class does not even have access to them at all. It's simply not a thing, period. On that note, and yes this is quite old but back during pre vanilla launch days there was an official statement made by Eric Flannum (former lead game designer for GW2, now with Amazon): > We don't like to restrict professions or equipment that people can use based on race choice. > We don't want to make it so that only a Norn is gonna wanna be a Warrior because he has all the best Warrior abilities and that sort of thing. We want the Norn to be able to play any profession that they want. **And so we're working really hard to make sure those racial abilities don't give someone an overwhelming advantage as one profession or another**. Now one can argue that since then 6-7 years have passed and objectives change, but in this case one would have to show how changing or moving away from this prerogative is of a net benefit to the game and the player base as a whole. "Because I want it" is not a big net benefit. > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > Keeping the status quo is what every body signed on to and can accept or disapprove of, it remains the status quo though. > > Well, I liked my phantasm Mesmer and my Spirit Weapons Armory Guardian. Where's the status quo for them? > The status quo for racial skills is: they will not matter and are fluff. The status quo for class abilities is: they are subject to balance. While you might enjoy the previous version of a class, class balance has always been up for changes. Now realize that on a smaller scale you have just the same issue. People being disappointed that the class they had and its play style getting fundamentally changed. This is WITH the knowledge that class balance happens. Now imagine how big this frustration might be when the original concept was: this is fluff and will not matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > The problem with racials is that they are race exclusive and depending on balance ppl could be feel forced to play some specific race, and limiting them only to ow would be a waste imho. > > > > > > > > Not discounting your point, but for discussion purposes, I'd like to argue it. > > > > > > > > Is it really a bad thing to "feel forced" to play a specific race if its in a game mode that doesn't impact others? Consider that people already feel forced to play specific professions for specific content. Or use specific builds. Or even feel forced to play specific content. So what is the actual cost-benefit of compelling players to play specific races in open world gameplay? I'm sure one could point to imbalance for certain events but even then, who actually cares? No one can tell you what you NEED to play in open world nor can you be pressured. > > > > > > > > > > The fact that current balance is not ideal or that true balance in general might be unachievable is no good argument to intentionally add even more unbalance and parts to the equation. > > > > > > > Why is it not a good argument? > > > > You can say it is but then ignore the discussion point of what I presented, to which then why even bother replying to my point if you're just going to ignore what I'm asking? I'll ask you again though: Who would care? Who would actually care that you might feel slighted that your Asura warrior might not be as effective in a certain open world event than a Sylvari warrior? And further still, who shoulders the cost of that concern? > > Every person who might be min/maxing. Given how obsessed people are with meta builds, there is enough who would be displeased. Now add in the non existent ability to remedie this situation (no race changes available, no free characters available) and I don't think I have to engage this point any longer. Causing more unbalance only because balance might not be perfect is simply not a good argument. > > As far as implementing this for open world only (which would again require changes to the system overall). I remain by what I said: they are unwilling to make changes to the system based on the simple fact that they do not want to devote resources to this > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > Especially when those parts are part of a feature which was intentionally designed to not conflict in the first place. > > > > > > > To this, I ask you to answer the question in my second paragraph. > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > Not sure Arenanet has the will to devote man power to such a task when the net result will automatically be something which to some extent will create unhappy players. > > > > > > > Why would you automatically assume that? And while I can understand the position of a realist in discussions like these, it's rather beside the point, IMO, to dwell on trivialities when I believe the discussion could focus on what could be done vs what won't. > > I already said that I do not consider any thing HAS to be done. I already mentioned how I am a fan of the "make racial abilities available to every race" (via that skill point system maybe). I do not consider opening up racial based abilities (which are currently sitting at 30+ abilities separated even further down into class backstory choices) to re-balance even a remote possibility. Even more so when 1 class does not even have access to them at all. It's simply not a thing, period. > > On that note, and yes this is quite old but back during pre vanilla launch days there was an official statement made by Eric Flannum (former lead game designer for GW2, now with Amazon): > > We don't like to restrict professions or equipment that people can use based on race choice. > > We don't want to make it so that only a Norn is gonna wanna be a Warrior because he has all the best Warrior abilities and that sort of thing. We want the Norn to be able to play any profession that they want. **And so we're working really hard to make sure those racial abilities don't give someone an overwhelming advantage as one profession or another**. > > Now one can argue that since then 6-7 years have passed and objectives change, but in this case one would have to show how changing or moving away from this prerogative is of a net benefit to the game and the player base as a whole. "Because I want it" is not a big net benefit. > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > Keeping the status quo is what every body signed on to and can accept or disapprove of, it remains the status quo though. > > > > Well, I liked my phantasm Mesmer and my Spirit Weapons Armory Guardian. Where's the status quo for them? > > > > The status quo for racial skills is: they will not matter and are fluff. > > The status quo for class abilities is: they are subject to balance. > > While you might enjoy the previous version of a class, class balance has always been up for changes. Now realize that on a smaller scale you have just the same issue. People being disappointed that the class they had and its play style getting fundamentally changed. This is WITH the knowledge that class balance happens. > > Now imagine how big this frustration might be when the original concept was: this is fluff and will not matter. U speak of the exclusivity of these skills to specific races as if anet didn't deal with that back in gw1. Even in the case of revenant we've seen with the underwater rework that they can deal with such issues. The only obsticle is how much of a balance nightmare they might prove And how much the players want to see t change vs the devs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > The problem with racials is that they are race exclusive and depending on balance ppl could be feel forced to play some specific race, and limiting them only to ow would be a waste imho. > > > > > > > > > > Not discounting your point, but for discussion purposes, I'd like to argue it. > > > > > > > > > > Is it really a bad thing to "feel forced" to play a specific race if its in a game mode that doesn't impact others? Consider that people already feel forced to play specific professions for specific content. Or use specific builds. Or even feel forced to play specific content. So what is the actual cost-benefit of compelling players to play specific races in open world gameplay? I'm sure one could point to imbalance for certain events but even then, who actually cares? No one can tell you what you NEED to play in open world nor can you be pressured. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The fact that current balance is not ideal or that true balance in general might be unachievable is no good argument to intentionally add even more unbalance and parts to the equation. > > > > > > > > > > Why is it not a good argument? > > > > > > You can say it is but then ignore the discussion point of what I presented, to which then why even bother replying to my point if you're just going to ignore what I'm asking? I'll ask you again though: Who would care? Who would actually care that you might feel slighted that your Asura warrior might not be as effective in a certain open world event than a Sylvari warrior? And further still, who shoulders the cost of that concern? > > > > Every person who might be min/maxing. Given how obsessed people are with meta builds, there is enough who would be displeased. Now add in the non existent ability to remedie this situation (no race changes available, no free characters available) and I don't think I have to engage this point any longer. Causing more unbalance only because balance might not be perfect is simply not a good argument. > > > > As far as implementing this for open world only (which would again require changes to the system overall). I remain by what I said: they are unwilling to make changes to the system based on the simple fact that they do not want to devote resources to this > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > Especially when those parts are part of a feature which was intentionally designed to not conflict in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > To this, I ask you to answer the question in my second paragraph. > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > Not sure Arenanet has the will to devote man power to such a task when the net result will automatically be something which to some extent will create unhappy players. > > > > > > > > > > Why would you automatically assume that? And while I can understand the position of a realist in discussions like these, it's rather beside the point, IMO, to dwell on trivialities when I believe the discussion could focus on what could be done vs what won't. > > > > I already said that I do not consider any thing HAS to be done. I already mentioned how I am a fan of the "make racial abilities available to every race" (via that skill point system maybe). I do not consider opening up racial based abilities (which are currently sitting at 30+ abilities separated even further down into class backstory choices) to re-balance even a remote possibility. Even more so when 1 class does not even have access to them at all. It's simply not a thing, period. > > > > On that note, and yes this is quite old but back during pre vanilla launch days there was an official statement made by Eric Flannum (former lead game designer for GW2, now with Amazon): > > > We don't like to restrict professions or equipment that people can use based on race choice. > > > We don't want to make it so that only a Norn is gonna wanna be a Warrior because he has all the best Warrior abilities and that sort of thing. We want the Norn to be able to play any profession that they want. **And so we're working really hard to make sure those racial abilities don't give someone an overwhelming advantage as one profession or another**. > > > > Now one can argue that since then 6-7 years have passed and objectives change, but in this case one would have to show how changing or moving away from this prerogative is of a net benefit to the game and the player base as a whole. "Because I want it" is not a big net benefit. > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > Keeping the status quo is what every body signed on to and can accept or disapprove of, it remains the status quo though. > > > > > > Well, I liked my phantasm Mesmer and my Spirit Weapons Armory Guardian. Where's the status quo for them? > > > > > > > The status quo for racial skills is: they will not matter and are fluff. > > > > The status quo for class abilities is: they are subject to balance. > > > > While you might enjoy the previous version of a class, class balance has always been up for changes. Now realize that on a smaller scale you have just the same issue. People being disappointed that the class they had and its play style getting fundamentally changed. This is WITH the knowledge that class balance happens. > > > > Now imagine how big this frustration might be when the original concept was: this is fluff and will not matter. > > U speak of the exclusivity of these skills to specific races as if anet didn't deal with that back in gw1. > > Even in the case of revenant we've seen with the underwater rework that they can deal with such issues. > > The only obsticle is how much of a balance nightmare they might prove And how much the players want to see t change vs the devs. GW1 had no races. So not sure what you are referring to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 i remember anet saying that they don't want any races having an unfair advantage. so we are stuck with this useless clutter. they could just disable em in wvw lol... as for pve meh who cares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > The problem with racials is that they are race exclusive and depending on balance ppl could be feel forced to play some specific race, and limiting them only to ow would be a waste imho. > > > > > > > > > > > > Not discounting your point, but for discussion purposes, I'd like to argue it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Is it really a bad thing to "feel forced" to play a specific race if its in a game mode that doesn't impact others? Consider that people already feel forced to play specific professions for specific content. Or use specific builds. Or even feel forced to play specific content. So what is the actual cost-benefit of compelling players to play specific races in open world gameplay? I'm sure one could point to imbalance for certain events but even then, who actually cares? No one can tell you what you NEED to play in open world nor can you be pressured. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The fact that current balance is not ideal or that true balance in general might be unachievable is no good argument to intentionally add even more unbalance and parts to the equation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is it not a good argument? > > > > > > > > You can say it is but then ignore the discussion point of what I presented, to which then why even bother replying to my point if you're just going to ignore what I'm asking? I'll ask you again though: Who would care? Who would actually care that you might feel slighted that your Asura warrior might not be as effective in a certain open world event than a Sylvari warrior? And further still, who shoulders the cost of that concern? > > > > > > Every person who might be min/maxing. Given how obsessed people are with meta builds, there is enough who would be displeased. Now add in the non existent ability to remedie this situation (no race changes available, no free characters available) and I don't think I have to engage this point any longer. Causing more unbalance only because balance might not be perfect is simply not a good argument. > > > > > > As far as implementing this for open world only (which would again require changes to the system overall). I remain by what I said: they are unwilling to make changes to the system based on the simple fact that they do not want to devote resources to this > > > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > Especially when those parts are part of a feature which was intentionally designed to not conflict in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > To this, I ask you to answer the question in my second paragraph. > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > Not sure Arenanet has the will to devote man power to such a task when the net result will automatically be something which to some extent will create unhappy players. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would you automatically assume that? And while I can understand the position of a realist in discussions like these, it's rather beside the point, IMO, to dwell on trivialities when I believe the discussion could focus on what could be done vs what won't. > > > > > > I already said that I do not consider any thing HAS to be done. I already mentioned how I am a fan of the "make racial abilities available to every race" (via that skill point system maybe). I do not consider opening up racial based abilities (which are currently sitting at 30+ abilities separated even further down into class backstory choices) to re-balance even a remote possibility. Even more so when 1 class does not even have access to them at all. It's simply not a thing, period. > > > > > > On that note, and yes this is quite old but back during pre vanilla launch days there was an official statement made by Eric Flannum (former lead game designer for GW2, now with Amazon): > > > > We don't like to restrict professions or equipment that people can use based on race choice. > > > > We don't want to make it so that only a Norn is gonna wanna be a Warrior because he has all the best Warrior abilities and that sort of thing. We want the Norn to be able to play any profession that they want. **And so we're working really hard to make sure those racial abilities don't give someone an overwhelming advantage as one profession or another**. > > > > > > Now one can argue that since then 6-7 years have passed and objectives change, but in this case one would have to show how changing or moving away from this prerogative is of a net benefit to the game and the player base as a whole. "Because I want it" is not a big net benefit. > > > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > Keeping the status quo is what every body signed on to and can accept or disapprove of, it remains the status quo though. > > > > > > > > Well, I liked my phantasm Mesmer and my Spirit Weapons Armory Guardian. Where's the status quo for them? > > > > > > > > > > The status quo for racial skills is: they will not matter and are fluff. > > > > > > The status quo for class abilities is: they are subject to balance. > > > > > > While you might enjoy the previous version of a class, class balance has always been up for changes. Now realize that on a smaller scale you have just the same issue. People being disappointed that the class they had and its play style getting fundamentally changed. This is WITH the knowledge that class balance happens. > > > > > > Now imagine how big this frustration might be when the original concept was: this is fluff and will not matter. > > > > U speak of the exclusivity of these skills to specific races as if anet didn't deal with that back in gw1. > > > > Even in the case of revenant we've seen with the underwater rework that they can deal with such issues. > > > > The only obsticle is how much of a balance nightmare they might prove And how much the players want to see t change vs the devs. > > GW1 had no races. So not sure what you are referring to. There were multiple races albeit non plyable ones (not that that mattered). We could as human learn all the racials of diff races and have a way bigger selection of racial skills to pick from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > The problem with racials is that they are race exclusive and depending on balance ppl could be feel forced to play some specific race, and limiting them only to ow would be a waste imho. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not discounting your point, but for discussion purposes, I'd like to argue it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is it really a bad thing to "feel forced" to play a specific race if its in a game mode that doesn't impact others? Consider that people already feel forced to play specific professions for specific content. Or use specific builds. Or even feel forced to play specific content. So what is the actual cost-benefit of compelling players to play specific races in open world gameplay? I'm sure one could point to imbalance for certain events but even then, who actually cares? No one can tell you what you NEED to play in open world nor can you be pressured. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The fact that current balance is not ideal or that true balance in general might be unachievable is no good argument to intentionally add even more unbalance and parts to the equation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is it not a good argument? > > > > > > > > > > You can say it is but then ignore the discussion point of what I presented, to which then why even bother replying to my point if you're just going to ignore what I'm asking? I'll ask you again though: Who would care? Who would actually care that you might feel slighted that your Asura warrior might not be as effective in a certain open world event than a Sylvari warrior? And further still, who shoulders the cost of that concern? > > > > > > > > Every person who might be min/maxing. Given how obsessed people are with meta builds, there is enough who would be displeased. Now add in the non existent ability to remedie this situation (no race changes available, no free characters available) and I don't think I have to engage this point any longer. Causing more unbalance only because balance might not be perfect is simply not a good argument. > > > > > > > > As far as implementing this for open world only (which would again require changes to the system overall). I remain by what I said: they are unwilling to make changes to the system based on the simple fact that they do not want to devote resources to this > > > > > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > Especially when those parts are part of a feature which was intentionally designed to not conflict in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To this, I ask you to answer the question in my second paragraph. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > Not sure Arenanet has the will to devote man power to such a task when the net result will automatically be something which to some extent will create unhappy players. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would you automatically assume that? And while I can understand the position of a realist in discussions like these, it's rather beside the point, IMO, to dwell on trivialities when I believe the discussion could focus on what could be done vs what won't. > > > > > > > > I already said that I do not consider any thing HAS to be done. I already mentioned how I am a fan of the "make racial abilities available to every race" (via that skill point system maybe). I do not consider opening up racial based abilities (which are currently sitting at 30+ abilities separated even further down into class backstory choices) to re-balance even a remote possibility. Even more so when 1 class does not even have access to them at all. It's simply not a thing, period. > > > > > > > > On that note, and yes this is quite old but back during pre vanilla launch days there was an official statement made by Eric Flannum (former lead game designer for GW2, now with Amazon): > > > > > We don't like to restrict professions or equipment that people can use based on race choice. > > > > > We don't want to make it so that only a Norn is gonna wanna be a Warrior because he has all the best Warrior abilities and that sort of thing. We want the Norn to be able to play any profession that they want. **And so we're working really hard to make sure those racial abilities don't give someone an overwhelming advantage as one profession or another**. > > > > > > > > Now one can argue that since then 6-7 years have passed and objectives change, but in this case one would have to show how changing or moving away from this prerogative is of a net benefit to the game and the player base as a whole. "Because I want it" is not a big net benefit. > > > > > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > Keeping the status quo is what every body signed on to and can accept or disapprove of, it remains the status quo though. > > > > > > > > > > Well, I liked my phantasm Mesmer and my Spirit Weapons Armory Guardian. Where's the status quo for them? > > > > > > > > > > > > > The status quo for racial skills is: they will not matter and are fluff. > > > > > > > > The status quo for class abilities is: they are subject to balance. > > > > > > > > While you might enjoy the previous version of a class, class balance has always been up for changes. Now realize that on a smaller scale you have just the same issue. People being disappointed that the class they had and its play style getting fundamentally changed. This is WITH the knowledge that class balance happens. > > > > > > > > Now imagine how big this frustration might be when the original concept was: this is fluff and will not matter. > > > > > > U speak of the exclusivity of these skills to specific races as if anet didn't deal with that back in gw1. > > > > > > Even in the case of revenant we've seen with the underwater rework that they can deal with such issues. > > > > > > The only obsticle is how much of a balance nightmare they might prove And how much the players want to see t change vs the devs. > > > > GW1 had no races. So not sure what you are referring to. > > There were multiple races albeit non plyable ones (not that that mattered). We could as human learn all the racials of diff races and have a way bigger selection of racial skills to pick from. First off, those were not racially locked out skills. Those were independent stances and some of them were severely broken leading to entire metas of people using the same stance (Ursan Way) until they were nerfed at which point they became useless. These are in no way similar to racial skills in GW2. You basically just jumped on some new skills in GW1 which were available to every player and called them racial skills when they have absolutely no resemblance to actually racial based locked out skills (as is the case in GW2). Second GW1 was no MMO and the skill system in GW1 was vastly inferior balance wise to GW2. About 90% of all skills in GW1 were either useless, copies of each other or both. This made it a lot easier to balance the game because no body cared. I already mentioned I like the idea of having all racial skills available, but if you want to use GW1 as example of having racial skills get re-balanced and made useful, you have no understanding of how broken that system actually was (in both directions). It is the prime example of why NOT to make racial skills viable or stronger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > The problem with racials is that they are race exclusive and depending on balance ppl could be feel forced to play some specific race, and limiting them only to ow would be a waste imho. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not discounting your point, but for discussion purposes, I'd like to argue it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is it really a bad thing to "feel forced" to play a specific race if its in a game mode that doesn't impact others? Consider that people already feel forced to play specific professions for specific content. Or use specific builds. Or even feel forced to play specific content. So what is the actual cost-benefit of compelling players to play specific races in open world gameplay? I'm sure one could point to imbalance for certain events but even then, who actually cares? No one can tell you what you NEED to play in open world nor can you be pressured. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The fact that current balance is not ideal or that true balance in general might be unachievable is no good argument to intentionally add even more unbalance and parts to the equation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is it not a good argument? > > > > > > > > > > > > You can say it is but then ignore the discussion point of what I presented, to which then why even bother replying to my point if you're just going to ignore what I'm asking? I'll ask you again though: Who would care? Who would actually care that you might feel slighted that your Asura warrior might not be as effective in a certain open world event than a Sylvari warrior? And further still, who shoulders the cost of that concern? > > > > > > > > > > Every person who might be min/maxing. Given how obsessed people are with meta builds, there is enough who would be displeased. Now add in the non existent ability to remedie this situation (no race changes available, no free characters available) and I don't think I have to engage this point any longer. Causing more unbalance only because balance might not be perfect is simply not a good argument. > > > > > > > > > > As far as implementing this for open world only (which would again require changes to the system overall). I remain by what I said: they are unwilling to make changes to the system based on the simple fact that they do not want to devote resources to this > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > Especially when those parts are part of a feature which was intentionally designed to not conflict in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To this, I ask you to answer the question in my second paragraph. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > Not sure Arenanet has the will to devote man power to such a task when the net result will automatically be something which to some extent will create unhappy players. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would you automatically assume that? And while I can understand the position of a realist in discussions like these, it's rather beside the point, IMO, to dwell on trivialities when I believe the discussion could focus on what could be done vs what won't. > > > > > > > > > > I already said that I do not consider any thing HAS to be done. I already mentioned how I am a fan of the "make racial abilities available to every race" (via that skill point system maybe). I do not consider opening up racial based abilities (which are currently sitting at 30+ abilities separated even further down into class backstory choices) to re-balance even a remote possibility. Even more so when 1 class does not even have access to them at all. It's simply not a thing, period. > > > > > > > > > > On that note, and yes this is quite old but back during pre vanilla launch days there was an official statement made by Eric Flannum (former lead game designer for GW2, now with Amazon): > > > > > > We don't like to restrict professions or equipment that people can use based on race choice. > > > > > > We don't want to make it so that only a Norn is gonna wanna be a Warrior because he has all the best Warrior abilities and that sort of thing. We want the Norn to be able to play any profession that they want. **And so we're working really hard to make sure those racial abilities don't give someone an overwhelming advantage as one profession or another**. > > > > > > > > > > Now one can argue that since then 6-7 years have passed and objectives change, but in this case one would have to show how changing or moving away from this prerogative is of a net benefit to the game and the player base as a whole. "Because I want it" is not a big net benefit. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > Keeping the status quo is what every body signed on to and can accept or disapprove of, it remains the status quo though. > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, I liked my phantasm Mesmer and my Spirit Weapons Armory Guardian. Where's the status quo for them? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The status quo for racial skills is: they will not matter and are fluff. > > > > > > > > > > The status quo for class abilities is: they are subject to balance. > > > > > > > > > > While you might enjoy the previous version of a class, class balance has always been up for changes. Now realize that on a smaller scale you have just the same issue. People being disappointed that the class they had and its play style getting fundamentally changed. This is WITH the knowledge that class balance happens. > > > > > > > > > > Now imagine how big this frustration might be when the original concept was: this is fluff and will not matter. > > > > > > > > U speak of the exclusivity of these skills to specific races as if anet didn't deal with that back in gw1. > > > > > > > > Even in the case of revenant we've seen with the underwater rework that they can deal with such issues. > > > > > > > > The only obsticle is how much of a balance nightmare they might prove And how much the players want to see t change vs the devs. > > > > > > GW1 had no races. So not sure what you are referring to. > > > > There were multiple races albeit non plyable ones (not that that mattered). We could as human learn all the racials of diff races and have a way bigger selection of racial skills to pick from. > > First off, those were not racially locked out skills. Those were independent stances and some of them were severely broken leading to entire metas of people using the same stance (Ursan Way) until they were nerfed at which point they became useless. These are in no way similar to racial skills in GW2. You basically just jumped on some new skills in GW1 which were available to every player and called them racial skills when they have absolutely no resemblance to actually racial based locked out skills (as is the case in GW2). > > Second GW1 was no MMO and the skill system in GW1 was vastly inferior balance wise to GW2. About 90% of all skills in GW1 were either useless, copies of each other or both. This made it a lot easier to balance the game because no body cared. > > I already mentioned I like the idea of having all racial skills available, but if you want to use GW1 as example of having racial skills get re-balanced and made useful, you have no understanding of how broken that system actually was (in both directions). It is the prime example of why NOT to make racial skills viable or stronger. They are very much racial skills or skills of a group of people since they are the ones that have it originally and u can learn it only through them and master them through gaining reputation with them. Much like gw2 racial skills would still be racial if a human could learn the ways of norm. U just getting accepted and accostumed to the ways of another race so they let you in on their secrets. As for the subject of balance yesn, thats the only thing, how much of a pain would be to balance them to remain balanced between other skills. The "Its not an mmo" matters little here since both games had rather high end multiperson pve and pvp modes the only modes it would matter. Theres also alot of skills depending on the gamemode that are either great or useless and in specific situations, this would increase the number of said skills. It really comes down if ppl want it more than the devs can bother (like the whole dungeon deal) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > The problem with racials is that they are race exclusive and depending on balance ppl could be feel forced to play some specific race, and limiting them only to ow would be a waste imho. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not discounting your point, but for discussion purposes, I'd like to argue it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is it really a bad thing to "feel forced" to play a specific race if its in a game mode that doesn't impact others? Consider that people already feel forced to play specific professions for specific content. Or use specific builds. Or even feel forced to play specific content. So what is the actual cost-benefit of compelling players to play specific races in open world gameplay? I'm sure one could point to imbalance for certain events but even then, who actually cares? No one can tell you what you NEED to play in open world nor can you be pressured. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The fact that current balance is not ideal or that true balance in general might be unachievable is no good argument to intentionally add even more unbalance and parts to the equation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is it not a good argument? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can say it is but then ignore the discussion point of what I presented, to which then why even bother replying to my point if you're just going to ignore what I'm asking? I'll ask you again though: Who would care? Who would actually care that you might feel slighted that your Asura warrior might not be as effective in a certain open world event than a Sylvari warrior? And further still, who shoulders the cost of that concern? > > > > > > > > > > > > Every person who might be min/maxing. Given how obsessed people are with meta builds, there is enough who would be displeased. Now add in the non existent ability to remedie this situation (no race changes available, no free characters available) and I don't think I have to engage this point any longer. Causing more unbalance only because balance might not be perfect is simply not a good argument. > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as implementing this for open world only (which would again require changes to the system overall). I remain by what I said: they are unwilling to make changes to the system based on the simple fact that they do not want to devote resources to this > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > Especially when those parts are part of a feature which was intentionally designed to not conflict in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To this, I ask you to answer the question in my second paragraph. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > Not sure Arenanet has the will to devote man power to such a task when the net result will automatically be something which to some extent will create unhappy players. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would you automatically assume that? And while I can understand the position of a realist in discussions like these, it's rather beside the point, IMO, to dwell on trivialities when I believe the discussion could focus on what could be done vs what won't. > > > > > > > > > > > > I already said that I do not consider any thing HAS to be done. I already mentioned how I am a fan of the "make racial abilities available to every race" (via that skill point system maybe). I do not consider opening up racial based abilities (which are currently sitting at 30+ abilities separated even further down into class backstory choices) to re-balance even a remote possibility. Even more so when 1 class does not even have access to them at all. It's simply not a thing, period. > > > > > > > > > > > > On that note, and yes this is quite old but back during pre vanilla launch days there was an official statement made by Eric Flannum (former lead game designer for GW2, now with Amazon): > > > > > > > We don't like to restrict professions or equipment that people can use based on race choice. > > > > > > > We don't want to make it so that only a Norn is gonna wanna be a Warrior because he has all the best Warrior abilities and that sort of thing. We want the Norn to be able to play any profession that they want. **And so we're working really hard to make sure those racial abilities don't give someone an overwhelming advantage as one profession or another**. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now one can argue that since then 6-7 years have passed and objectives change, but in this case one would have to show how changing or moving away from this prerogative is of a net benefit to the game and the player base as a whole. "Because I want it" is not a big net benefit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > Keeping the status quo is what every body signed on to and can accept or disapprove of, it remains the status quo though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, I liked my phantasm Mesmer and my Spirit Weapons Armory Guardian. Where's the status quo for them? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The status quo for racial skills is: they will not matter and are fluff. > > > > > > > > > > > > The status quo for class abilities is: they are subject to balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > While you might enjoy the previous version of a class, class balance has always been up for changes. Now realize that on a smaller scale you have just the same issue. People being disappointed that the class they had and its play style getting fundamentally changed. This is WITH the knowledge that class balance happens. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now imagine how big this frustration might be when the original concept was: this is fluff and will not matter. > > > > > > > > > > U speak of the exclusivity of these skills to specific races as if anet didn't deal with that back in gw1. > > > > > > > > > > Even in the case of revenant we've seen with the underwater rework that they can deal with such issues. > > > > > > > > > > The only obsticle is how much of a balance nightmare they might prove And how much the players want to see t change vs the devs. > > > > > > > > GW1 had no races. So not sure what you are referring to. > > > > > > There were multiple races albeit non plyable ones (not that that mattered). We could as human learn all the racials of diff races and have a way bigger selection of racial skills to pick from. > > > > First off, those were not racially locked out skills. Those were independent stances and some of them were severely broken leading to entire metas of people using the same stance (Ursan Way) until they were nerfed at which point they became useless. These are in no way similar to racial skills in GW2. You basically just jumped on some new skills in GW1 which were available to every player and called them racial skills when they have absolutely no resemblance to actually racial based locked out skills (as is the case in GW2). > > > > Second GW1 was no MMO and the skill system in GW1 was vastly inferior balance wise to GW2. About 90% of all skills in GW1 were either useless, copies of each other or both. This made it a lot easier to balance the game because no body cared. > > > > I already mentioned I like the idea of having all racial skills available, but if you want to use GW1 as example of having racial skills get re-balanced and made useful, you have no understanding of how broken that system actually was (in both directions). It is the prime example of why NOT to make racial skills viable or stronger. > > They are very much racial skills or skills of a group of people since they are the ones that have it originally and u can learn it only through them and master them through gaining reputation with them. They are not racial skills in the context of how this term was used and is being used in this thread, by the developers of GW2 or myself. When referring to racial skills people in this thread and the developer I quoted earlier are making mention of unique and exclusive skills to a specific race. This does not apply to GW1 skills, period. > @"zealex.9410" said: > > Much like gw2 racial skills would still be racial if a human could learn the ways of norm. U just getting accepted and accostumed to the ways of another race so they let you in on their secrets. But they can not. You are literally applying a condition which is NOT THE CASE currently. Stop mixing together completely different aspects. Getting all racial skills shared among all races is a way different issue than having them get re-balanced. Having the skills re-balanced is near impossible, thus leaving them as fluff skills makes sense. Having racial skills as fluff removes part of the reason to share them across all races. Maybe when constructing an argument, start with the status quo and go step by step instead of leaping past things which have not yet been done, like sharing racial skills among all races (which as mentioned is not even the only hurdle since some racial skills in GW2 are locked behind specific background choices too). > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > As for the subject of balance yesn, thats the only thing, how much of a pain would be to balance them to remain balanced between other skills. > That is not the only thing, it is a HUGE thing close to game break worthy. This is not some paltry side point you can just skip over. It is of significant magnitude as to warrent a former lead developer to state that they specifically do NOT want racial skills to in any way unbalance the choice of which race to play. > @"zealex.9410" said: > Theres also alot of skills depending on the gamemode that are either great or useless and in specific situations, this would increase the number of said skills. It really comes down if ppl want it more than the devs can bother (like the whole dungeon deal) Yes, because developers being able to be bothered with basically a near impossible task when balance is already insanely hard is a realistic mindset. You are unbelievably naive in your approach to work, workload and management of resources. That said, you have my earlier quote by a former lead developer, it basically says that Arenanet does not want to make racial skill relevant as far as balance is concerned. You can disagree with it as much as you want, since it is their game, don't expect this to change without good arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > The problem with racials is that they are race exclusive and depending on balance ppl could be feel forced to play some specific race, and limiting them only to ow would be a waste imho. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not discounting your point, but for discussion purposes, I'd like to argue it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is it really a bad thing to "feel forced" to play a specific race if its in a game mode that doesn't impact others? Consider that people already feel forced to play specific professions for specific content. Or use specific builds. Or even feel forced to play specific content. So what is the actual cost-benefit of compelling players to play specific races in open world gameplay? I'm sure one could point to imbalance for certain events but even then, who actually cares? No one can tell you what you NEED to play in open world nor can you be pressured. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The fact that current balance is not ideal or that true balance in general might be unachievable is no good argument to intentionally add even more unbalance and parts to the equation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is it not a good argument? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can say it is but then ignore the discussion point of what I presented, to which then why even bother replying to my point if you're just going to ignore what I'm asking? I'll ask you again though: Who would care? Who would actually care that you might feel slighted that your Asura warrior might not be as effective in a certain open world event than a Sylvari warrior? And further still, who shoulders the cost of that concern? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every person who might be min/maxing. Given how obsessed people are with meta builds, there is enough who would be displeased. Now add in the non existent ability to remedie this situation (no race changes available, no free characters available) and I don't think I have to engage this point any longer. Causing more unbalance only because balance might not be perfect is simply not a good argument. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as implementing this for open world only (which would again require changes to the system overall). I remain by what I said: they are unwilling to make changes to the system based on the simple fact that they do not want to devote resources to this > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > Especially when those parts are part of a feature which was intentionally designed to not conflict in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To this, I ask you to answer the question in my second paragraph. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > Not sure Arenanet has the will to devote man power to such a task when the net result will automatically be something which to some extent will create unhappy players. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would you automatically assume that? And while I can understand the position of a realist in discussions like these, it's rather beside the point, IMO, to dwell on trivialities when I believe the discussion could focus on what could be done vs what won't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already said that I do not consider any thing HAS to be done. I already mentioned how I am a fan of the "make racial abilities available to every race" (via that skill point system maybe). I do not consider opening up racial based abilities (which are currently sitting at 30+ abilities separated even further down into class backstory choices) to re-balance even a remote possibility. Even more so when 1 class does not even have access to them at all. It's simply not a thing, period. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On that note, and yes this is quite old but back during pre vanilla launch days there was an official statement made by Eric Flannum (former lead game designer for GW2, now with Amazon): > > > > > > > > We don't like to restrict professions or equipment that people can use based on race choice. > > > > > > > > We don't want to make it so that only a Norn is gonna wanna be a Warrior because he has all the best Warrior abilities and that sort of thing. We want the Norn to be able to play any profession that they want. **And so we're working really hard to make sure those racial abilities don't give someone an overwhelming advantage as one profession or another**. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now one can argue that since then 6-7 years have passed and objectives change, but in this case one would have to show how changing or moving away from this prerogative is of a net benefit to the game and the player base as a whole. "Because I want it" is not a big net benefit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > Keeping the status quo is what every body signed on to and can accept or disapprove of, it remains the status quo though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, I liked my phantasm Mesmer and my Spirit Weapons Armory Guardian. Where's the status quo for them? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The status quo for racial skills is: they will not matter and are fluff. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The status quo for class abilities is: they are subject to balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While you might enjoy the previous version of a class, class balance has always been up for changes. Now realize that on a smaller scale you have just the same issue. People being disappointed that the class they had and its play style getting fundamentally changed. This is WITH the knowledge that class balance happens. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now imagine how big this frustration might be when the original concept was: this is fluff and will not matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > U speak of the exclusivity of these skills to specific races as if anet didn't deal with that back in gw1. > > > > > > > > > > > > Even in the case of revenant we've seen with the underwater rework that they can deal with such issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > The only obsticle is how much of a balance nightmare they might prove And how much the players want to see t change vs the devs. > > > > > > > > > > GW1 had no races. So not sure what you are referring to. > > > > > > > > There were multiple races albeit non plyable ones (not that that mattered). We could as human learn all the racials of diff races and have a way bigger selection of racial skills to pick from. > > > > > > First off, those were not racially locked out skills. Those were independent stances and some of them were severely broken leading to entire metas of people using the same stance (Ursan Way) until they were nerfed at which point they became useless. These are in no way similar to racial skills in GW2. You basically just jumped on some new skills in GW1 which were available to every player and called them racial skills when they have absolutely no resemblance to actually racial based locked out skills (as is the case in GW2). > > > > > > Second GW1 was no MMO and the skill system in GW1 was vastly inferior balance wise to GW2. About 90% of all skills in GW1 were either useless, copies of each other or both. This made it a lot easier to balance the game because no body cared. > > > > > > I already mentioned I like the idea of having all racial skills available, but if you want to use GW1 as example of having racial skills get re-balanced and made useful, you have no understanding of how broken that system actually was (in both directions). It is the prime example of why NOT to make racial skills viable or stronger. > > > > They are very much racial skills or skills of a group of people since they are the ones that have it originally and u can learn it only through them and master them through gaining reputation with them. > > They are not racial skills in the context of how this term was used and is being used in this thread, by the developers of GW2 or myself. When referring to racial skills people in this thread and the developer I quoted earlier are making mention of unique and exclusive skills to a specific race. This does not apply to GW1 skills, period. > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > Much like gw2 racial skills would still be racial if a human could learn the ways of norm. U just getting accepted and accostumed to the ways of another race so they let you in on their secrets. > > But they can not. You are literally applying a condition which is NOT THE CASE currently. Stop mixing together completely different aspects. Getting all racial skills shared among all races is a way different issue than having them get re-balanced. Having the skills re-balanced is near impossible, thus leaving them as fluff skills makes sense. > > Having racial skills as fluff removes part of the reason to share them across all races. > > Maybe when constructing an argument, start with the status quo and go step by step instead of leaping past things which have not yet been done, like sharing racial skills among all races (which as mentioned is not even the only hurdle since some racial skills in GW2 are locked behind specific background choices too). > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > As for the subject of balance yesn, thats the only thing, how much of a pain would be to balance them to remain balanced between other skills. > > > > That is not the only thing, it is a HUGE thing close to game break worthy. This is not some paltry side point you can just skip over. It is of significant magnitude as to warrent a former lead developer to state that they specifically do NOT want racial skills to in any way unbalance the choice of which race to play. > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > Theres also alot of skills depending on the gamemode that are either great or useless and in specific situations, this would increase the number of said skills. It really comes down if ppl want it more than the devs can bother (like the whole dungeon deal) > > Yes, because developers being able to be bothered with basically a near impossible task when balance is already insanely hard is a realistic mindset. You are unbelievably naive in your approach to work, workload and management of resources. > > That said, you have my earlier quote by a former lead developer, it basically says that Arenanet does not want to make racial skill relevant as far as balance is concerned. You can disagree with it as much as you want, since it is their game, don't expect this to change without good arguments. You are missing the point, i didnt put sharing the racials and balance in the same basket. I simply argued that as a human you could learn skills from the norn or the asura and with a similar system you could prob do so in this game as well. We dont need one to have the other, they could make all the racials obtainable for all the races and that would be that. Similarly they could make the racials competive and exclusive and that would be jsut that. The main "problem" with balancing them to be stronger would be that then ppl would be forced to play a diff race (and its not even a problem its more like bitching). This idea which as a concept existed in the first game could solve that part. Im not arguing that balancing them would be easy or not im simply bringing up a solution to a prpblem that would arise for number of ppl, being forced to play a race they dont like. Its an arguement to ppl that say "they cant because they are exclusive to races" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balsa.3951 Posted December 31, 2018 Author Share Posted December 31, 2018 How about we stop calling it racial Skills and call it core mastery's and its inspired by the Gods of tyria or something like that. Every race can learn every skill just need the core mastery points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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