Runecrafter's Salvage-o-Matic concerns [Merged]

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"DiogoSilva.7089" said:

> Now that niche is taken away from it by Runecrafter's, bringing Silver back to its grave.

The data doesn't support that statement.

> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qLrFPcTJeoM-QvYl49OwgEXHwfHVN_-R4aSKopr98xk/edit#gid=0

 

Even with the increased cost, Silver-Fed is superior to Runecrafter's in several important niches (RC is better in some, too). And either is a good choice; if you own one, there's (currently) little reason to buy the other.

 

This ~~might~~ probably will change in the future, but for now, Silver-Fed remains a good if not great option.

 

[Khisanth.2948]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > > @"Khisanth.2948" said:

> > > > @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> > > > So what does anyone use to salvage rares and exotics?

> > >

> > > Need to wait for a large enough data set of ecto salvage rates to know what is best but for me I just stick with silver fed.

> >

> > For exotics?? Are you crazy? :o A Black Lion Salvage kit for those, ofcourse! Or use the Endless Upgrade Extractor first, _then_ try your luck with the Silver-fed/Mystic Salvage Kit.

>

> This isn't a realistic plan. Only a fraction of the community has enough BL sal kits to use on exotics. A smaller fraction of the community has enough disposable gold to afford the endless extractor.

>

 

I have a few ...


but the bigger problem is that most exotics aren't worth bothering with

 

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"Vethaera.6319" said:

> > > @"Tanner Blackfeather.6509" said:

> > >

> > > You do **not get the upgrade** with the new tool, it just has a 100% chance to break it down. It's as if you always used an upgrade extractor *and then salvaged the upgrade*.

> >

> > The wording of the item description is misleading, and that's only proven by the number of people who were fooled by it. I have trouble believing Anet didn't realize that would happen.

> It only proves that people have different ideas of the of the plain English meaning of various phrase. It's happened more than a few times that ANet has misjudged people's reactions.

>

 

The changes were also in the patch notes.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60248/game-update-notes-november-13-2018#latest

> Salvage Kits: The chance to extract a rune or sigil from equipment is now a chance to salvage the upgrades directly into their crafting materials. This does not affect Black Lion Salvage Kits, which will continue to always extract upgrades intact.

 

If people don't want to bother reading about changes then they only have themselves to blame for not knowing about said changes.

[perilisk.1874]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> It only proves that people have different ideas of the of the plain English meaning of various phrase. It's happened more than a few times that ANet has misjudged people's reactions.

 

It would be a lot less confusing if they said "...salvage upgrades into upgrade components", or something along those lines.

 

 

[Donutdude.9582]

My five pence: we have had the Silver-fed Salvage-o-Matic for years now. You or I are under no obligation to buy the new Runecrafter's Salvage-o-Matic to take advantage of the slightly better copper usage.

 

So ArenaNet are trying to be a bit tricksy to guage people into buying their new stuff. Fair play. I will stick with my Silver-fed robot all day thank you very much.

[eldrjth.7384]

The only real complaint I have is now I have 3 shared inventory slots dedicated to gizmos just used for salvaging gear, and have to determine which is best to use in each case. It would be better if somehow they could be combined them into a single salvager with user 'presets' that allow a certain salvager to be used with certain rarities and maybe even the option to use on items with/without runes. Maybe this can be the legendary version (it can cost 1000g to obtain and require quest to be completed) given the usefulness and the fact it saves you shared inventory space. F2p players would have much to complain about though as the new gemstore items are putting them at further disadvantage.

[Balthzar.3807]

In the end I bought one without doing the numbers and this just means that if you want to salvage greens with the runecrafters you are paying 1000% more than copper fed with no real value other than the occasional symbol or charm. + you are getting less ecto and less luck.

 

thanks Anet for wasting my time gems all to make a bigger gold sink

 

the fact is that the description was misleading and plain and simple I want my Gems back and you can have that piece of junk it has no real benefit and I feel that I was misled

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Balthzar.3807" said:

> In the end I bought one without doing the numbers and this just means that if you want to salvage greens with the runecrafters you are paying 1000% more than copper fed with no real value other than the occasional symbol or charm. + you are getting less ecto and less luck.

Actually, there's a great deal of value in using runecrafter's, as shown in [this thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/64720/which-salvage-kit-should-i-use-recommendations-now-with-data) (with links to market-value spreadsheet)

 

> the fact is that the description was misleading

That's an opinion, not a fact.

 

> and plain and simple I want my Gems back and you can have that piece of junk it has no real benefit

Submit a support ticket. Chances are you can get a full refund.

 

However, I'd hesitate before doing so. In the long run, having a copper-fed plus a runecrafter's turns out to be a good combination of convenience plus economic value.

 

 

[Ashantara.8731]

> @"Balthzar.3807" said:

> + you are getting less ecto and less luck.

 

The 5% are negligible in the long run, I'd say.

 

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> However, I'd hesitate before doing so. In the long run, having a copper-fed plus a runecrafter's turns out to be a good combination of convenience plus economic value.

 

:+1:

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

Removing functionality of the Copperfed and Silverfed when they should already be producing these materials at the rate the runes and sigils were before. Its like trying to cover a car wreck with a blanket, not very well disguised nerf.

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

> @"Saniyah.1984" said:

> > @"totaloverride.3240" said:

> > Runecrafter's kit should give rune not salvage the rune!!!!!!!!!!

> > This is one more scam. I bought this and now i regret that.

> > i want my 200g back!

> >

>

> OMG please NOOO, i bought permenant upgrade extractor if they did as you said i want 3000 gold back!!!

 

That's not the same since your permanent upgrade extractor keeps the gear intact.

[Clyan.1593]

For those who bought the endless extractor it would actually BE a scam if this thing could 100% extract upgrades.

[LucianDK.8615]

> @"Clyan.1593" said:

> For those who bought the endless extractor it would actually BE a scam if this thing could 100% extract upgrades.

 

Yep, people is not really understanding the differences.

[ROMANG.1903]

> @"Clyan.1593" said:

> For those who bought the endless extractor it would actually BE a scam if this thing could 100% extract upgrades.

 

The upgrade exctractor is to separate the item and the upgrade while salvaging neither. What some people thought the runecrafter's kit would do was to keep the upgrade but salvage the item, which is not the same thing. For example, one could be used to change gear in raids or whatever, while the other can't.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

>

> However, I'd hesitate before doing so. In the long run, having a copper-fed plus a runecrafter's turns out to be a good combination of convenience plus economic value.

>

Explain please. Because unless the Runecrafter increases (significantly) the chances of getting Symbols, it has no value at all compared to a Copper-Fed.

 

Please raise your hand if anyone needs more lucent motes? (currently selling for 14c each on TP) Anyone?

 

Getting or not getting a lucent mote from salvaging an item isn't a problem or a solution for anyone afaik.

 

 

[Talonblaze.3175]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> Explain please. Because unless the Runecrafter increases (significantly) the chances of getting Symbols, it has no value at all compared to a Copper-Fed.

>

> Please raise your hand if anyone needs more lucent motes? (currently selling for 14c each on TP) Anyone?

>

> Getting or not getting a lucent mote from salvaging an item isn't a problem or a solution for anyone afaik.

>

 

This was basically the only factor that I was contemplating purchasing this for. Symbols.

However, given the rates I saw in this thread, it hardly feels justified with the current rate.

"Runecrafter" is kinda a pointless name when it barely gives the actual important component. Hence why "Mote Maker" is a more apt name for it lol.

 

Kinda disappointed with it being so, along with being perturbed about the Silver comparison as well.

 

 

[Diak Atoli.2085]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> >

> > However, I'd hesitate before doing so. In the long run, having a copper-fed plus a runecrafter's turns out to be a good combination of convenience plus economic value.

> >

> Explain please. Because unless the Runecrafter increases (significantly) the chances of getting Symbols, it has no value at all compared to a Copper-Fed.

>

> Please raise your hand if anyone needs more lucent motes? (currently selling for 14c each on TP) Anyone?

>

> Getting or not getting a lucent mote from salvaging an item isn't a problem or a solution for anyone afaik.

>

>

 

As far as I know, both Copper-fed and Runecrafter's have the the same chance of salvaging symbols/charms.

 

The difference is in the _overall chance to salvage._ A Copper-fed only has a 20% chance to salvage upgrades when salvaging an item, while Runecrafter's is 100%. Meaning, on average, a Runecrafter's Kit will salvage 5x more upgrades.

[Arsenic Touch.7960]

Usually support their gem store items but this one is insulting to their playerbase. Especially those that already have the silver fed one. Anet needs to sit down for once and address the concerns from players about the charm and symbol drop rate, it's ridiculous.

[TokenG.7863]

> @"Arsenic Touch.7960" said:

> Usually support their gem store items but this one is insulting to their playerbase. Especially those that already have the silver fed one. Anet needs to sit down for once and address the concerns from players about the charm and symbol drop rate, it's ridiculous.

 

I suggested this in another topic, but sorta fits here too; Seems like to me a simple solution that may help the dilemma is to change the recipes for minor/major runes and sigils to stop requiring the symbols and charms to craft them. That way when you have an abundance of lucent motes, you can burn them off and create minor/major sigils to sell or salvage to try and get symbols and charms to create the superior versions. It would also favor new players who may want to craft or buy minor/major sigils to put on gear without having to spend an inflated price on the TP.

 

This, of course, has nothing to do with the topic of -fed kits losing their ability to retain sigils and runes, but would definitely help in the foreseeable shortage of materials to craft runes and sigils.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> >

> > However, I'd hesitate before doing so. In the long run, having a copper-fed plus a runecrafter's turns out to be a good combination of convenience plus economic value.

> >

> Explain please. Because unless the Runecrafter increases (significantly) the chances of getting Symbols, it has no value at all compared to a Copper-Fed.

It has been explained. The Copper-Fed has only a 20% chance to salvage runes & sigils; the Runecrafter has 100% chance. That's huge. As it turns out, that means RC offers close to an extra silver of value beyond Copper-Fed for upgrade-bearing masterwork gear & over 2 silver for non-ecto|upgrade-bearing rares.

 

>

> Please raise your hand if anyone needs more lucent motes? (currently selling for 14c each on TP) Anyone?

Don't ignore the value of lucent motes just because you don't see a use for them. Profit is profit.

 

>

> Getting or not getting a lucent mote from salvaging an item isn't a problem or a solution for anyone afaik.

Economics isn't about solving an individual's concern; it's about looking at the overall market. The value of masterwork, rares, and exotics is up. The amount of sigils & runes we need is roughly the same as always (usually once or twice per character for most players, a time or three extra for some players after a balance patch), so we get more income overall to purchase just what we need, by selling everything we don't.

 

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Arsenic Touch.7960" said:

> Usually support their gem store items but this one is insulting to their playerbase.

Only for those who aren't looking at the actual salvage results.

 

> Especially those that already have the silver fed one.

If you own the silver-fed one, keep using it. It's still a good option.

 

> Anet needs to sit down for once and address the concerns from players about the charm and symbol drop rate, it's ridiculous.

That is the topic of a different thread.

 

 

[Biff.5312]

 

> It's not a scam. It upfront tells us what it does.

> You might not like that, you might prefer a different item on the TP, but that's a design concern, not one about whether we're being deliberately misled.

 

The fact is that the phrasing requires careful reading to interpret correctly. A lot of players are likely to buy the item thinking it means they'll recover a rune/sigil. It's therefor taking advantage of a likely misunderstanding. If they weren't trying to get unearned sales, they'd do more to make sure it's clear to buyers that this does NOT recover items. It's not a 'scam' per se, but it definitely fishes for sales from people who misread the text.

[ROMANG.1903]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"Arsenic Touch.7960" said:

> > Usually support their gem store items but this one is insulting to their playerbase.

> Only for those who aren't looking at the actual salvage results.

>

> > Especially those that already have the silver fed one.

> If you own the silver-fed one, keep using it. It's still a good option.

>

> > Anet needs to sit down for once and address the concerns from players about the charm and symbol drop rate, it's ridiculous.

> That is the topic of a different thread.

>

>

 

I usually agree with you but you said yourself that if we had neither of the silverfed or the runecrafter's, we should buy the runecrafter's. You also said that if we already have one, we don't need the other. This basically means that the runecrafter's is overall a better option than the silverfed, just not by a large enough margin to justify buying the runecrafter if we already own the silverfed. But basically, the runecrafter renders the silverfed obsolete, unless I missed something.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"ROMANG.1903" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > @"Arsenic Touch.7960" said:

> > > Usually support their gem store items but this one is insulting to their playerbase.

> > Only for those who aren't looking at the actual salvage results.

> >

> > > Especially those that already have the silver fed one.

> > If you own the silver-fed one, keep using it. It's still a good option.

> >

> > > Anet needs to sit down for once and address the concerns from players about the charm and symbol drop rate, it's ridiculous.

> > That is the topic of a different thread.

> >

> >

>

> I usually agree with you but you said yourself that if we had neither of the silverfed or the runecrafter's, we should buy the runecrafter's. You also said that if we already have one, we don't need the other. This basically means that the runecrafter's is overall a better option than the silverfed, just not by a large enough margin to justify buying the runecrafter if we already own the silverfed. But basically, the runecrafter renders the silverfed obsolete, unless I missed something.

 

You missed something. The Silver-Fed is more efficient in several niches, the Runecrafter's is better in others. Thus it's incorrect to say that SF is obsolete.

 

For many, having both requires more inventory management than some can stomach. Therefore, the keep-it-simple-skritt solution is to stick with one. If you only buy one, then it's somewhat arbitrary to choose: RC is better on anything without ecto, SF is better on stuff with ecto. Most people salvage more greens than rares, so when making a general recommendation, I gave the nod to RC.

 

Saying SF is obsolete because of RC is like saying that RC is obsolete because of Mystic Kits: that's a better option still, but it's not universally available or convenient for all. Saying SF is obsolete is like saying that Copper-Fed is obsolete because Basic Kits are cheaper.

 

No one has to buy any of these convenience items. Those that do are looking to maximize profits, minimize effort, and keep things simple enough. The proper mix varies with the individual. Some people "should" own all three, some should own just Copper-Fed, some shouldn't own any. And for those that want just two, RC & SF are close in value in the _current_ market.

 

 

[LucianDK.8615]

how much of a difference does 20% vs 25% make in recovering ecto overall? enough to be noticeable over time? Especially if the RC rune material recovery is 20% better?

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> how much of a difference does 20% vs 25% make in recovering ecto overall? enough to be noticeable over time? Especially if the RC rune material recovery is 20% better?

If you look at the spreadsheet linked at the top of the [recommendation thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/64720/which-salvage-kit-should-i-use-recommendations-now-with-data), you'll see that "small" difference is enough _at current ecto prices_ to make Silver-Fed a better choice for all ecto-bearing rares, with or without runes.

 

FYI the ratio isn't 20% or 25% for ecto. I really don't understand how ANet's description predicts the ecto rate and the few times they tried to clarify made things more opaque, not less (in my opinion anyhow).

 

So I go by actual data. What we have so far is that Silver-Fed|Mystic|Master's generates 87-88 ecto per 100 rares, while RC generates 80 (and there's only sparse data for Basic|Copper-Fed).

 

All this will change at some point: ecto will trend down, symbols & charms will trend down (probably more slowly). Plus, how you play has a dramatic impact on the sort of loot you have available to salvage. Istani farmers tend to get their blues & greens as unID gear, which is more efficiently sold directly; choice of kit will not profoundly affect the value of Palawadan + Great Hall runs. It will matter a lot more for Silverwastes farmers, who get a lot of gear (and convert badges to gear bags).