Are the Elder Dragon's evil?

[perilisk.1874]

I messed up and lost my post, so I'll keep it brief this time, especially since it's all off topic.

 

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> Neither the Forgotten nor the Six Gods are native to Tyria - this is 100% confirmed and **not** murky at all. And everything we know suggests that they came from the same world that humanity did.

 

I think this was retconned away, since forgotten have been on Tyria since the last elder dragon rise 10000 years ago.

 

> I would disagree that souls are most resistant to dragon corruption, for two reasons. Firstly, Zhaitan trapped souls in his most powerful risen; Jormag supposedly does the same, and (secondly) I recall reading that Jormag corrupts the soul. Given that Jormag is capable of consuming the Spirits of the Wild like he did Owl and planned to for Minotaur, it wouldn't be surprising.

 

Trapped is not the same as corrupted, though. They're basically themselves once freed from their prison of flesh. Jormag seems to corrupt souls the old fashioned way (temptation), and we don't know if SotW are the same thing as souls.

 

> Besides that, why would a human soul be any different from, say, a charr soul, or a norn soul, or a kodan soul, or a mursaat or seer or dwarf soul? By all indication, there is no difference between a human soul and souls of other races. Even in the Domain of the Lost, we see no difference.

 

Why wouldn't it be? Norn are strong, Asura are smart, and humans are spiritual. It's their thing. Their racial abilities are prayers. That said, it might not be humans generally that mattered to the forgotten, but only the Chosen, and humans are just more likely to be born Chosen. Humans aren't native to Tyria, which sets them apart from the others you list, and could explain the difference -- be it that they evolved without a dragon cycle, the lifestream can't absorb them well so they go to the Mists, whatever.

 

> On top of that, the Gods' magic has nothing to do with souls.

 

They're served by elevated ghosts like Sunspears and Reapers, or by twisted and enslaved souls like Titans and Forged, they manage realms where souls congregate, they can consume souls like demons, and they're more associated with social concepts of ensouled beings (like beauty or war) rather than natural concepts like shadow or owls or fire. Their magic has much to do with souls.

 

> And the Bloodstones weren't made by Forgotten or the Six, but by the Seers, who had no (known) dealing with the Six or humanity.

 

The forgotten, mursaat, and seers worked together against the dragons (initially, anyway) and seemed to draw from a common pool of knowledge that they developed in different ways, one focused on spirits and the Mists.

 

Spectral agony and infusion, enchanted armor and jade constructs (and exalted), the eye of janthir and ascension rituals, soul batteries and bloodstones.

 

 

[ThatOddOne.4387]

> @"Jimbru.6014" said:

> Regarding the human gods, there is much still left unanswered in the lore, but it's become pretty obvious since the content reveals of PoF that #1 the human gods aren't all they're cracked up to be, and #2 there are still many questions left unanswered.

>

> - Balthazar had a half-brother, Menzies. Who were their parents? Orrian scrolls mention Balthazar having a father without naming him. Were they gods all along, or mortals who grew to godhood in some manner? Are all the gods like that?

> - Several, if not all of the gods, had predecessors in their positions, and in all known cases those successions came about by defeat and assumption of power. Kormir was a mortal became a goddess by defeating Abbadon, who succeeded the semi-mythical "Arachnia" in some manner before coming to Tyria as a god. Grenth was a half-god, son of Dwayna and Malchor, who defeated and succeeded Dhuum. It has been implied that Balthazar took his power from some older pre-Tyrian deity.

>

> So clearly, there is much more to the gods' history than we know, and much less to their apparent position relative to the Elder Dragons. Though their inability to defeat the Elder Dragons is likely more a matter of circumstance than power. The gods are probably powerful enough to kill the Elder Dragons (after all, we mere mortals killed two) but the Elder Dragons hold the "fail deadly" trump card of being inherently tied to Tyria's magic, so their deaths would destroy Tyria. Like a terrorist holding a grenade; you could shoot him, but then he would drop the grenade. Damned if you do, damned if you don't...

 

Not quite sure what you mean by "not being all they're cracked up to be", if anything they're confirmed to very much be all that they're cracked up to be. (IE: The use of their powers in combat turning an ocean to desert)

 

That said you are correct that in a conflict between the Gods and the Elder Dragons, the Gods would likely win, the only reason they do not fight is because the Gods know that killing the Dragons destroys Tyria and if something goes wrong and one of them dies, Tyria is also destroyed (Abaddon dying was going to destroy Tyria if Kormir did not absorb his energy, and Dragons cannot absorb Divine magic).

 

It taking one God dying to destroy the planet compared to it taking three Dragons dying to end up with the same result should tell people all they need to know.

 

> @"Naxos.2503" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > @"Naxos.2503" said:

> > > The elder dragons are tied to the human gods in my opinion, as the humans gods are themselves tied to the natural cycle. The dragons represent the untamed raw Energy of the world, they each represent a different aspect or core principle of existence :

> >

> > People have tried to do this for so long, with it always pattering out before you can get halfway, that ArenaNet eventually put it and its incapability of making a complete connection between the Six Gods and the Elder Dragons [into the game](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragons_and_Gods). And last year, we got a direct, undeniable, debunk of that theory:

> >

> > > @"Jessica Price.1649" said:

> > > Elder Dragons are native to Tyria, and the human gods are from elsewhere, so as far as them being related: no.

> >

> > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/494601/#Comment_494601

> >

> > Sorry, but that explanation has been thoroughly and fully denied.

>

> While they may be from elsewhere, it doesn't necessarily means they are not tied to the energies themselves though, that was essentially what I pointed out. As was shown in Path of Fire, god and dragon energies can mix, meaning they can tap within the same pool of Energy. They are tied to the world, just as the dragons are, so much so that when Gods influence wane over certain dominions, the place is not destroyed, but Simply "changes hands", much like how the dragons Energy do.

 

God and Dragon energies cannot mix, the former appears to repel the latter and cannot be corrupted. If you're thinking about Balthazar being able to absorb Dragon magic, he no longer had any 'God' magic as that was stripped from him by the others.

[Naxos.2503]

> @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

 

> God and Dragon energies cannot mix, the former appears to repel the latter and cannot be corrupted. If you're thinking about Balthazar being able to absorb Dragon >magic, he no longer had any 'God' magic as that was stripped from him by the others.

 

 

Didn't he still reignite Rytlock's sword post emprisonement though ? In my book, that means he still had godly powers, just very little of it.

I think mostly, both gods and dragons draw from the same magic currents, they just cannot draw from it at the same time. I dont think the gods appearing during the dragons slumber, and disappearing when the dragons wake is certainly not a coincidence. What changes is the magic flow switching to different nodes during that point, as the elder dragons absorb the magic of the world.

[Teratus.2859]

Originally I would have said no but now i'm not so sure..

 

Since Mordremoth the dragons certainly seem like they have a higher level of consciousness and comprehension than just being natural forces such as a Tsunami or Volcano..

It definitely feels like they destroy and enslave intentionally.

Glint planned to usurp one of the dragons suggesting that they could be peaceful or that their roles could be handled without destruction if the dragons willed it yet choose not to.

 

I think it's safe to say that the Dragons do not see value in the lives of lesser beings and each of them probably think of itself as a god or at the very least thee most dominant being on Tyria.

With that in mind I would lean more to saying yeah the Dragons are at least in some way evil.. from our perspective at least.

 

[Naxos.2503]

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> Originally I would have said no but now i'm not so sure..

>

> Since Mordremoth the dragons certainly seem like they have a higher level of consciousness and comprehension than just being natural forces such as a Tsunami or Volcano..

> It definitely feels like they destroy and enslave intentionally.

> Glint planned to usurp one of the dragons suggesting that they could be peaceful or that their roles could be handled without destruction if the dragons willed it yet choose not to.

>

> I think it's safe to say that the Dragons do not see value in the lives of lesser beings and each of them probably think of itself as a god or at the very least thee most dominant being on Tyria.

> With that in mind I would lean more to saying yeah the Dragons are at least in some way evil.. from our perspective at least.

>

 

They represent the more chaotic side of the world's Energy, untamed magical power, which they abuse, I think.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Naxos.2503" said:

> While they may be from elsewhere, it doesn't necessarily means they are not tied to the energies themselves though, that was essentially what I pointed out. As was shown in Path of Fire, god and dragon energies can mix, meaning they can tap within the same pool of Energy. They are tied to the world, just as the dragons are, so much so that when Gods influence wane over certain dominions, the place is not destroyed, but Simply "changes hands", much like how the dragons Energy do.

 

Except that, like I said in my first comment, the attempts to compare the Six Gods' domains to the Elder Dragons' domains fall short halfway through.

 

1. First off, Grenth as being god of death and ice relates to two Elder Dragons. Yet at the same time, Dhuum has no relation to ice, just death.

2. Despite your claim, Jormag is **not** about order and on top of that, Kormir is order, not Dwayna.

3. Your comparison has Zhaitan, Primordus, Mordremoth, and Jormag being "similarities", while Kralkatirrik is "opposite" of Lyssa. Breaking your convention right off the bat.

4. There is nothing secretive about the Deep Sea Dragon's domain, ArenaNet just wants to keep it mysterious, and there's nothing at all linking the tentacled dragon who corrupts water with Kormir. With Abaddon, sure, but just like how Grenth has ice even before ascension to godhood, and Dhuum never does, the secondary domains seem interchangable between generations - air for dwayna, earth for Melandru, beauty for Lyssa, fire for Balthazar are all things that appear to be dependent on the personality of the god, and not the god's magic.

 

Above all this, the gods were gods when they arrived on Tyria. Their magic is **wholly alien to the world**, just as the gods themselves are. The closest relation the Six Gods and the Elder Dragons may have, is that the Six Gods might have been The All bearers of their homeworld that got destroyed.

 

Furthermore, Path of Fire does not show that god and dragon energies can mix. If you forgot, Balthazar **lost all his god magic**. A former god may be able to steal magic from the Elder Dragons, but nothing shows that an Elder Dragon can steal magic from a true god. Kralkatorrik and Aurene merely ate the magic Balthazar took from the Maguuma Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag.

 

In fact, the opposite is frequently shown.

* Divine Fire in Season 2 fearing mordrem away and killing the supposedly unkillable Shadow of the Dragon.

* Balthazar, even as a former god, wading through an army of destroyers and walking up to an Elder Dragon, with enough time to create barriers before turning on Taimi's Machine that paralyzed the Elder Dragon, with no harm done to him or his magic.

* Sun's Refuge being protected from the Branded's invasions from the Rifts while Kormir's protection spell is up.

* The Djinn using the remnants of Abaddon's magic in the sand to create their defenses against the Dragonbrand and its corruption.

 

We see four straight up cases of the Six Gods magic *counteracting* the Elder Dragon's corruption and minions. We see zero cases of them properly mixing.

 

Add in the Exalted's immunity to corruption, and the Forgotten's magic to counteract mental corruption - as the Forgotten have been servants of the Six longer than they've been on Tyria - and we got five cases of this non-Tyrian magic counteracting Tyrian magic.

 

The Six Gods have no innate connection to Tyria. It's why they can so easily abandon the place.

 

> @"Naxos.2503" said:

> > @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

>

> > God and Dragon energies cannot mix, the former appears to repel the latter and cannot be corrupted. If you're thinking about Balthazar being able to absorb Dragon >magic, he no longer had any 'God' magic as that was stripped from him by the others.

>

>

> Didn't he still reignite Rytlock's sword post emprisonement though ? In my book, that means he still had godly powers, just very little of it.

> I think mostly, both gods and dragons draw from the same magic currents, they just cannot draw from it at the same time. I dont think the gods appearing during the dragons slumber, and disappearing when the dragons wake is certainly not a coincidence. What changes is the magic flow switching to different nodes during that point, as the elder dragons absorb the magic of the world.

 

He still had power, yes, but he was no longer a god. This is a major plot point of Balthazar's actions throughout Season 3 and Path of Fire. He was stripped of his divinity and his power, left with only a very little strength left, to the point that when Rytlock met him in the Mists, Rytlock thought he was a lost soul.

 

But for all we know, his power to reignite Sohothin came from the fact he stole Sohothin's magic since it was right next to him. We do not know how Sohothin's flame was extinguished.

 

I really think you need to replay Season 3 and Path of Fire, since that is pretty much **THE** main reason behind the plot. Balthazar was stripped of his divinity, so he sought to steal magic from the Bloodstones and Elder Dragons so that he could take his revenge against the gods.

 

All the same, it's been completely confirmed the Six Gods and Elder Dragons' magic are completely different. The Elder Dragon's magic comes from Tyria. The Six Gods' magic comes from elsewhere. There is no direct or distant relation between the two.

 

As for the Six Gods arriving while the dragons slept and leaving when they woke - keep in mind that they left a thousand years before the Elder Dragons woke up. And they did so because of their war with Abaddon. They left the Mists near Tyria when the Elder Dragons woke up because, as Kormir explained in Facing the Truth, there would be no real victory in fighting the Elder Dragons - either the gods lost and the gods' volatile released magic would destroy the world (as it nearly did with Abaddon's death), or the dragons lost and The All's imbalance would destroy the world.

 

And we're not even fully certain the Six Gods arrived while the dragons slept. The Forgotten came from The Mists just as the Six Gods did, but we do not know whether the Six were first (as GW1 unreliable narrator lore leads us to believe) or the Forgotten were first (as some Priory unreliable narrators lead us to believe - but Warden Illyra has been wrong before in her Arah path). And even if the Forgotten were first, we do not know with certainty that all or any the Elder Dragons were asleep when the Six arrived.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"perilisk.1874" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > Neither the Forgotten nor the Six Gods are native to Tyria - this is 100% confirmed and **not** murky at all. And everything we know suggests that they came from the same world that humanity did.

>

> I think this was retconned away, since forgotten have been on Tyria since the last elder dragon rise 10000 years ago.

[Not retconned](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Forgotten_Not_Forgotten). Forgotten came from the Mists.

 

There's also conflicting time periods for the last dragonrise. While there is the whole "Gigatnicus Lupicus were wiped out by them" there's also several mentions - mainly pertaining to the Forgotten and Glint - that states 3,000 years ago. For example:

 

> Glint: I remember only fragments from the days before the Forgotten performed their ritual on me.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crystalline_Memories#In_Glint.27s_Lair

 

Which is a nod back to older lore:

 

> Eir Stegalkin: Ancient, wise, powerful. She had the gift of prophecy and the burden of three thousand years of memories. She warned us about dragons taking over the world. They feast, she said, on all life.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Return_to_Camp_Resolve#After_talking_with_Logan

 

Which itself is a nod back to *older* lore from Edge of Destiny (Chapter 26: Seeking the Sanctum):

 

> "I am Glint, Keeper of the Flameseeker Prophecies, Protector of the Forgotten, Foe of the Lich Lord, and Downfall of the Titans! Three thousand years ago, I was set here as a guardian of the world. Three hundred years ago, I welcomed heroes such as yourselves, hailing them as the Chosen who would destroy the titans and save the world."

 

Which is where the "Glint lied about her identity" that is itself is a nod back to lore from GW1, about Glint and the Forgotten being 3,000 years old.

 

> @"perilisk.1874" said:

> > Besides that, why would a human soul be any different from, say, a charr soul, or a norn soul, or a kodan soul, or a mursaat or seer or dwarf soul? By all indication, there is no difference between a human soul and souls of other races. Even in the Domain of the Lost, we see no difference.

>

> Why wouldn't it be? Norn are strong, Asura are smart, and humans are spiritual. It's their thing. Their racial abilities are prayers. That said, it might not be humans generally that mattered to the forgotten, but only the Chosen, and humans are just more likely to be born Chosen. Humans aren't native to Tyria, which sets them apart from the others you list, and could explain the difference -- be it that they evolved without a dragon cycle, the lifestream can't absorb them well so they go to the Mists, whatever.

 

I wouldn't really claim humans are more spiritual than norn. I mean, norn are pretty damn devout to the Spirits of the Wild. They're just devout in a different way - they don't think that the Spirits of the Wild will actually intervene if prayed to, while humans for a long time did think such of their gods (because the Six *did* intervene in ye olde days).

 

Above that, many humans have been losing faith in their gods. It's one of their GW2 themes compared to GW1, where there's far less devoutness in the race than ever before. So I would disagree completely with the idea that "humans are the spiritual race" idea. Originally, humans were meant to be "the race with history" during the development of GW2. That they would be the ones who have the most access to the accurate history of the world of the five playable races. But then they decided to retcon 70% of GW1's historical lore.

 

> @"perilisk.1874" said:

> > On top of that, the Gods' magic has nothing to do with souls.

>

> They're served by elevated ghosts like Sunspears and Reapers, or by twisted and enslaved souls like Titans and Forged, they manage realms where souls congregate, they can consume souls like demons, and they're more associated with social concepts of ensouled beings (like beauty or war) rather than natural concepts like shadow or owls or fire. Their magic has much to do with souls.

 

They are capable of manipulating souls, but their magic does not have a foundation of souls. The elevated ghosts' job is the run the afterlife, you wouldn't have mortals doing that since they, y'know, die off. Titans are not confirmed to be directly related by the Six, but instead it's suggested that Dhuum merely made use of breeding them - no different than Rragar Maneater breeding Fleshreavers and Oozes. Forged were literally modifications of Exalted, which stem from Forgotten magic, not god magic (and even then, we got hints in Season 3 that the Exalted and Enchanted Armor - as well as Jade Constructs and other ancient spells - were likely formed from a coalition of mursaat, Seer, Forgotten, jotun, and dwarven magic, thus the similarities between all these ancient races' spells, like both mursaat and seers floating).

 

> @"perilisk.1874" said:

> > And the Bloodstones weren't made by Forgotten or the Six, but by the Seers, who had no (known) dealing with the Six or humanity.

>

> The forgotten, mursaat, and seers worked together against the dragons (initially, anyway) and seemed to draw from a common pool of knowledge that they developed in different ways, one focused on spirits and the Mists.

>

> Spectral agony and infusion, enchanted armor and jade constructs (and exalted), the eye of janthir and ascension rituals, soul batteries and bloodstones.

 

I don't really see the connection between Enchanted armor, Jade constructs, Eye of Janthir, Ascension (if the latter two were at all involved with the sharing of knowledge) to souls or the Mists. Nor would the mursaat and seer's floating abilities. Plus, the mursaat never shared the spectral agony or their Mists traversal - it's one of the things that made the alliance fall apart - as brought up in Arah.

 

And Bloodstones similarly have no connection to souls and Mists, besides the fact that when modified by the mursaat and connected to soul batteries, the Bloodstones were used as a transference device of souls. But this is more due to the mursaat tampering thousands of years later, and not the initial magic involved.

 

But even then, none of that has to do with the Six Gods.

[Edelweiss.4261]

I'd say the only "evil" dragon would be Mordremoth as it acted quite differently than would a natural phenomena as we were lead to believe elder dragons were. It acted out of arrogance and malice, so I'd say it was evil.

[Ronin.7381]

> @"starhunter.6015" said:

> Evil no, it would be like saying that the erupting volcano was evil or the hurricane was evil. The Elder Dragons just don't see any of the races as much more then food or fodder. They eat and then sleep a natural cycle .

 

Sadly, this isn't the direction they stuck with. Ever since HoT, they've humanized the Elder Dragons and made them fallible. Where as prior to launch of Guild Wars 2, we were told that Elder Dragons were "Forces of Nature." The concept of a beast that cares little for those it comes into contact with because they're too small, always apealed to me. But unfortunately, the novel with Destiny's Edge, had given Kralk a personality - a purpose. With the recent LW Episode, they've done more in this regard - further departing from that original concept. It's a shame really but the story making our player characters the BGDH kind of demands it.

 

 

[Steve The Cynic.3217]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> There is the saying that power corrupts

 

As I heard it(0):

 

> Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

 

It's a commentary, in origin, on political power and the consequences of statecraft rather than magical power, but applies, by extension, in situations that are "like" politics, many of which are called "something-or-other politics". Notable among them, obviously, is "corporate" or "office" politics. We accuse CEOs and the like of being corrupted by the power that their CEO-ness and/or the success of their companies give them, and a frequently-cited example (rightly or wrongly(1)) is the abandonment of the ideals expressed in "Don't be evil".

 

It is, therefore, of marginal relevance to the question of corruption of lesser beings (Risen, Mordrem, etc.) by the Elder Dragons, but very much can be applied to the dragons themselves.

 

(0) Wikiquote attributes it to "John Emerich Edward Dalberg-Acton, 1st Baron Acton, KCVO DL", more often known just as "Lord Acton". The larger context of the quote is:

 

> Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men, even when they exercise influence and not authority: still more when you superadd the tendency or the certainty of corruption by authority. There is no worse heresy than that the office sanctifies the holder of it.

 

TIL: It's part of a larger critique on the question of papal infallibility, one that includes the assertion that we should hold all people, high or low, to the same moral standards, and especially not excuse evil done by the high-placed merely because they are high-placed.

 

(1) That's a topic for another day, another forum, and another case of beer.

[AzureNightmare.3914]

> > @"Jimbru.6014" said:

> > Regarding the human gods, there is much still left unanswered in the lore, but it's become pretty obvious since the content reveals of PoF that #1 the human gods aren't all they're cracked up to be, and #2 there are still many questions left unanswered.

> >

> > - Balthazar had a half-brother, Menzies. Who were their parents? Orrian scrolls mention Balthazar having a father without naming him. Were they gods all along, or mortals who grew to godhood in some manner? Are all the gods like that?

> > - Several, if not all of the gods, had predecessors in their positions, and in all known cases those successions came about by defeat and assumption of power. Kormir was a mortal became a goddess by defeating Abbadon, who succeeded the semi-mythical "Arachnia" in some manner before coming to Tyria as a god. Grenth was a half-god, son of Dwayna and Malchor, who defeated and succeeded Dhuum. It has been implied that Balthazar took his power from some older pre-Tyrian deity.

> >

> > So clearly, there is much more to the gods' history than we know, and much less to their apparent position relative to the Elder Dragons. Though their inability to defeat the Elder Dragons is likely more a matter of circumstance than power. The gods are probably powerful enough to kill the Elder Dragons (after all, we mere mortals killed two) but the Elder Dragons hold the "fail deadly" trump card of being inherently tied to Tyria's magic, so their deaths would destroy Tyria. Like a terrorist holding a grenade; you could shoot him, but then he would drop the grenade. Damned if you do, damned if you don't...

>

 

I think the questions on the origins of the gods' homeland is very interesting, especially considering it feels like that would have been the theme of the cancelled **_Utopia _**campaign for GW1. For those of you unaware, _Utopia_ would have taken place in the Mists themselves, and would have included on an expanded pantheon, like Dwayna's father appearing. While I imagine most of Utopia isn't canon anymore, its very interesting, since at some point ANet did seem to have the Human Gods' homelands in mind in the narrative.

 

Makes me wonder if they'll ever return to it, you know?

[derd.6413]

evil is just a matter of perspective

[ThatOddOne.4387]

Yes, they are evil. Not due to what they are (Elder Dragons) but their own individual personalities.

[Jimbru.6014]

> @"AzureNightmare.3914" said:

>

> Makes me wonder if they'll ever return to it, you know?

 

My own theory is that the original home of humans and their gods doesn't exist anymore; they migrated to Tyria when their original home was destroyed. Perhaps by the very same kind of vast magical conflicts we are fighting in Tyria now. I also have an idea that the human gods were all originally humans, and the destruction of humanity's original home is at least partly how the human gods became gods in the first place.