Confusion and Torment are 'Control' conditions and needs a re-look

[Aza.2105]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

>

> Strawman more please. I am not suggesting it's hard to get 6 stacks of confusion.

 

If that is what you think I'm doing. Then that is on you. I asked the question simply because I was asking if that is what you were suggesting.

 

> @"apharma.3741" said:

 

> What I'm saying is that the 2 are very different and scale very different while depending on a multitude of different factors and being applied differently too. They are not comparable at all.

 

Why did Anet abandon hexes and curses from gw1 and unified them with conditions?

 

> @"apharma.3741" said:

 

> The only thing they have in common is they punish you for attacking.

 

Correct. Its why they are the same.

 

 

[apharma.3741]

> @"Aza.2105" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> >

> > Strawman more please. I am not suggesting it's hard to get 6 stacks of confusion.

>

> If that is what you think I'm doing. Then that is on you. I asked the question simply because I was asking if that is what you were suggesting.

>

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

>

> > What I'm saying is that the 2 are very different and scale very different while depending on a multitude of different factors and being applied differently too. They are not comparable at all.

>

> Why did Anet abandon hexes and curses from gw1 and unified them with conditions?

>

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

>

> > The only thing they have in common is they punish you for attacking.

>

> Correct. Its why they are the same.

>

>

 

It's the way you put "Are you suggesting by chance that....its hard for Mirage to achieve 6 stacks of confusion?" it gives the impression of a snarky response. In context you were setting up a strawman.

 

GW1 hexes and curses has no bearing on confusion vs retal and is pointless to be discussed.

 

Yeah so here's the differences listed out for you:

 

Retal:

Boon.

Scales off power.

Affected by concentration/boon duration.

Binary in nature.

Stacks duration.

Scales up with number of attackers.

Scales up with number of attacks.

Duration tends to be moderate duration 5s+.

 

Confusion:

Condition.

Scales off condition damage.

Affected by expertise/condition duration.

Stacks in strength.

Does not scale with number of attackers.

Scales only with skill activation not number of attacks.

Duration tends to be short 2-3s. (yes there's something like 3 exceptions to this but most are short duration)

 

They are almost polar opposites, saying they are the same is like saying fire and ice are the same because they can both cause burns.

[LaGranse.8652]

Make condition damage taken be reduced by armor. After that we can start balancing by comparing condition damage to power damage.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Personally I think that before the conditions themselves are further touched, the main source of complaints needs to be looked at: condi mirage. I have been playing a lot of condi rev lately and I can assure you that hitting these two conditions would be a massive blow to the build, which is meta nowhere in PvP or WvW. Why further cripple it when this is, in my opinion, a more class-specific issue? I don't see any inherent issue with torment or confusion when power damage is so off the charts and condi cleansing is so rampant.

[coro.3176]

> @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> Personally I think that before the conditions themselves are further touched, the main source of complaints needs to be looked at: condi mirage. I have been playing a lot of condi rev lately and I can assure you that hitting these two conditions would be a massive blow to the build, which is meta nowhere in PvP or WvW. Why further cripple it when this is, in my opinion, a more class-specific issue? I don't see any inherent issue with torment or confusion when power damage is so off the charts and condi cleansing is so rampant.

 

The vast majority of condi builds are in a really really bad spot right now due to abundant cleanse. It's really only Mirage (because of constant evades + reapplication) and to an extent Scourge (because of corrupts) that are playable.

 

The rest have a hard time making damage stick at all. Nerfing confusion + torment will not help.

[Aza.2105]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Aza.2105" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > >

> > > Strawman more please. I am not suggesting it's hard to get 6 stacks of confusion.

> >

> > If that is what you think I'm doing. Then that is on you. I asked the question simply because I was asking if that is what you were suggesting.

> >

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> >

> > > What I'm saying is that the 2 are very different and scale very different while depending on a multitude of different factors and being applied differently too. They are not comparable at all.

> >

> > Why did Anet abandon hexes and curses from gw1 and unified them with conditions?

> >

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> >

> > > The only thing they have in common is they punish you for attacking.

> >

> > Correct. Its why they are the same.

> >

> >

>

> It's the way you put "Are you suggesting by chance that....its hard for Mirage to achieve 6 stacks of confusion?" it gives the impression of a snarky response. In context you were setting up a strawman.

>

> GW1 hexes and curses has no bearing on confusion vs retal and is pointless to be discussed.

>

> Yeah so here's the differences listed out for you:

>

> Retal:

> Boon.

> Scales off power.

> Affected by concentration/boon duration.

> Binary in nature.

> Stacks duration.

> Scales up with number of attackers.

> Scales up with number of attacks.

> Duration tends to be moderate duration 5s+.

>

> Confusion:

> Condition.

> Scales off condition damage.

> Affected by expertise/condition duration.

> Stacks in strength.

> Does not scale with number of attackers.

> Scales only with skill activation not number of attacks.

> Duration tends to be short 2-3s. (yes there's something like 3 exceptions to this but most are short duration)

>

> They are almost polar opposites, saying they are the same is like saying fire and ice are the same because they can both cause burns.

 

None of that matters with regards to what I'm saying.

 

The question is how long and how often should an attacker be forced to stop attacking because of damage due to skills like confusion and retaliation? And furthermore how much damage is too much for punishing a attacker who does so.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

> @"Aza.2105" said:

> > @"SteepledHat.1345" said:

> > So we make it active only. Now we need to nerf that because you can't stow your weapon.

>

> This is part of the problem. That you pretty much have to stow your weapon and stand still while they pound on you. Lets not get it twisted, its not like Mesmer confusion re-application is low like Rev. Mirage reapplies confusion at a alarming rate.

 

Condi mirage builds that can stack significant amounts of confusion lack direct, power-derived damage with the exception, perhaps, of highly-telegraphed scepter 3 Confusing Images for the minority that play scepter. All their eggs are in the condi basket, namely confusion and torment with maybe a few cover conditions. There is abundant cleanse, resistance, invuln in the game, on top of standing still or stowing weapons, to counter. In contrast, Rev has huge direct damage potential, which by its nature, does instant damage on hit. This is what is called a trade off.

 

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"anduriell.6280" said:

> > I think those two control conditions are fine, although in PvP should be pure in their design:

> > * Torment should do only damage while moving.

> > * Confusion should do damage only when casting an ability which is not the auto-attack.

> >

>

> To the people who keep insisting: "Just stand still, stop using skills."

>

> ^ That is a cop-out response and people need to stop using it. The reality is there are more often than not, situations where you cannot stop moving or stop using skills unless you want to die. More often than not, you aren't getting some favorable 1v1 against a Mirage where the stars align and everything works out in your favor. More often than not things happen like this: **"You are 1v1ing a Scourge and about to kill it on a node, but a Mirage randomly appears out of no where with his stealth into burst combo after using blink/jaunt. Now you have 15 stacks of confusion and 15 stacks of torment and god knows what other condis." Is it a good idea to stop moving, stand still for awhile, and not use skills? Rofl yeah alright.**

 

Would a Soubleast or Deadeye or any other power burst build that "randomly appears out of nowhere" and instantly deletes a large chunk of your health (or even one- or two-shots you) be better?

 

People freak out about torment doing damage on moving and confusion doing damage on skill use, but seem to forget that these and other damaging conditions can be completely negated or mitigated in multiple ways after application, unlike direct damage. It's as if damage over time that can be avoided in multiple ways is somehow inherently worse than instant, direct damage that is done on hit.

 

There is a reason there are only two viable condi classes in PvP (Scourge and Mirage). The current amount of resistance and cleanse leaves only two builds that can keep the condi pressure on enough to matter. Just because a condi build is viable does not make it OP. If anything, it's an example of what it takes to be effective with condi in the current meta.

[EremiteAngel.9765]

For those who are saying the condi meta is dead because of too much cleanses, you should watch this.

Best condi class (Mirage) vs the Best condi clear (Weaver).

Both are played by top players.

Lord Hizen VS Cellofrag.

Fights start at the 2 min 40 seconds mark.

Its like the sharpest sword vs the strongest shield.

But with a twist.

The sharpest sword also happens to be tougher than the shield :o

 

 

Oh and anyway, condi meta viability is a topic for another thread I guess haha.

This thread is more to bring light on torment/confusion being an effect that is very similar to a control effect like Fear etc. and should be balanced appropriately.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> For those who are saying the condi meta is dead because of too much cleanses, you should watch this.

> Best condi class (Mirage) vs the Best condi clear (Weaver).

> Both are played by top players.

> Lord Hizen VS Cellofrag.

> Fights start at the 2 min 40 seconds mark.

> Its like the sharpest sword vs the strongest shield.

> But with a twist.

> The sharpest sword also happens to be tougher than the shield :o

>

>

>

> Oh and anyway, condi meta viability is a topic for another thread I guess haha.

> This thread is more to bring light on torment/confusion being an effect that is very similar to a control effect like Fear etc. and should be balanced appropriately.

 

This video is stupid and people need to stop bringing it up in the SPvP sub forum every thread about mesmer like it means anything.

 

1. They're in PvE, with PvE values and unnerfed damage values for a wide variety of Mirage skills.

2. Weaver is the most nonthreatening thing in the entire game.

3. The fight you point out is a stalemate with Cello shrugging off everything Hizen throws at it for four minutes until Cello DC's.

 

And yes, condition damage is completely nonviable for anything that's not a mesmer or a necromancer and people make it a point to qualify that statement.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@"EremiteAngel.9765"

 

That there are only two viable condi specs out of 27 in the game says more about the state of condi than a duel between a couple good players. Also, cleanse is not the only way to deal with condi.

[XenoSpyro.1780]

> @"Aza.2105" said:

> Why did Anet abandon hexes and curses from gw1 and unified them with conditions?

 

One too many hits on the snake.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

> @"coro.3176" said:

> > @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> > Personally I think that before the conditions themselves are further touched, the main source of complaints needs to be looked at: condi mirage. I have been playing a lot of condi rev lately and I can assure you that hitting these two conditions would be a massive blow to the build, which is meta nowhere in PvP or WvW. Why further cripple it when this is, in my opinion, a more class-specific issue? I don't see any inherent issue with torment or confusion when power damage is so off the charts and condi cleansing is so rampant.

>

> The vast majority of condi builds are in a really really bad spot right now due to abundant cleanse. It's really only Mirage (because of constant evades + reapplication) and to an extent Scourge (because of corrupts) that are playable.

>

> The rest have a hard time making damage stick at all. Nerfing confusion + torment will not help.

 

Yeah it seems like they have balanced condition management around Mirage and Scourge (because of corrupts) while leaving other condi builds behind. While the WvW cleansing sigil change, for example, was a good step forward for classes that lack condi cleanse (like power herald), it was a big blow to non-meta condi builds. It's still crazy to me that they tripled its effectiveness and introduced a rune like Antitoxin. I can do decently as a condi rev (I play core) against unprepared players but I am totally useless against something like a core warrior that tries to countercomp me.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

>

> Would a Soubleast or Deadeye or any other power burst build that "randomly appears out of nowhere" and instantly deletes a large chunk of your health (or even one- or two-shots you) be better?

>

 

Yes because a Soulbeast & DE bursts have more tells than Condi Mirage. Intermediate and lower players probably have trouble dodging a sic em rapid fire or a DE who comes out of stealth with Death's Judgment, but in reality at higher tiers of play, this is all much easier to avoid than Condi Mirage pressure. There are a few reasons for this:

* Higher tiered players have much stronger map awareness. In the case of a Soulbeast, its stealthing is limited so better players have their eyes on where a Soulbeast is and what build it is running. If it is identified as a glass cannon, better players are already positioned to not get hit by cheap shots as soon as it approaches a combat engagement. Even if the Soulbeasts quick stealths, It gets limited short stealths, leaving a very telegraphed margin of time in which it can land a Maul or WI, which is easy to avoid. Glass cannons are also much much much easier to kill than a Condi Mirage. They literally have about 10x less the sustain as a Condi Mirage, and that is no over-exaggeration. All it takes is a single Herald to pressure it and it removes it from the combat. If two were to pressure the glass cannon such as a Herald and Spellbreaker, it dies unless it retreats from the combat completely, and even then it won't be able to outrun even a single Herald. In the case of Boonbeast, its practical damage and chase power is nothing compared to something like a Condi Mirage. By "practical damage" I mean, "how easy and consistently its attacks can even hit a player who is retreating or kiting it". A Boonbeast is strong while defending a node and pushing others off that node, but its attacks are not good for chasing or trying to kill an opponent who is kiting. The best it has is smoke assault into a WI or Maul, which is ridiculous telegraphed and easy to dodge. Outside of that, it has no burst damage. So yeah,, If you want to point out the differences between Soulbeast + vs. Condi Mirage +, there ya go ^ Condi Mirage is a much more dangerous +.

* In the case of Deadeyes, when you're talking higher tiered play, DE's lose 1v1s my good bro. I don't know what tier you play at, but if you aren't aware of this fact, I would guess maybe gold 3 at the best. Although DEs deal a lot of burst damage and have high stealth uptime, they burst is highly telegraphed and they are full projectile power damage for the most part, which means they can be LOS'd, reflected, and completely denied their damage by something like a single endure pain or signet of stone. Upon this, they die immediately. If a higher tiered player with quick reflexes targets the DE nearly simultaneously as the DE appears, pops endure pain, and then bull charge's him, the DE is going to die if he's bad. If he's good, he gets a free shadowstep ONCE, and then the next time it happens, it's game over. Furthermore, when the DE stealths, it alleviates all pressure form the opponent, allowing him to move around and reposition, let skills come off CD, heal, ect.. ect.. and setup a counter offensive plan for when the DE next appears. Now with your question about comparing DE vs. Condi Mirage pressure: Condi Mirage is the least telegraphed class in the game. Literally every skill they have can be used in any order to toss things up and keep the fight confusing. <- This is an enormously powerful factor that other classes/builds are not able to do so casually as Condi Mirage. In other words, it's extremely difficult to judge what the Condi Mirage is going to do next. Then the Condi Mirage is power and condi damage. So its bursts are not so easily mitigated as a class that is full power or full condi. People like to ignore this fact but it's true. I see 99% of discussion about Condi Mirage talking about "using condi clears" but that's only dealing with about 3/5ths of its actual damage output. Now along with that mixed damage output which is powerful, most of it is coming from skills that have little to no tell at all. Shatter skills as example, just big rando explosions that can be spammed all at once with little to no animation time whatsoever, that happens in an AoE that can go through walls and around pillars "can't LOS the mes, can't reflect him". Worse yet is that unlike a DE who is extremely vulnerable to counter attacks, the Condi Mirage is an ultra fat bully that doesn't need to stealth and reposition and come at you carefully, in fact it doesn't need stealth at all in most cases and it can afford to just stay on top of you, applying consistent pressure 100% of the time, with no real hazard of being killed unless someone sneak +s it. This means that it gives you no time to recuperate or let skills come off CDs. If the Condi Mirage is good, he will apply so much pressure that the opponent must maintain complete defensive stature to even survive and hold the node at all. There are only two classes that are even dangerous to a good Condi Mirage player in 1v1, and that is Spellbreakers and believe it or not Weavers. Other things will eventually die to the good Condi Mirage 1v1, even if they are excellent players, "again we are talking amongst higher tiers here". Now don't get this confused with "Condi Mirage gets countered by Spellbreakers and Weavers" no no no no, I said the only things that are dangerous to a Condi Mirage is Spellbreakers and Weavers. <- That aint no counter like a Thief gets countered by DH or Core Guards get countered by Axe/Axe rangers with Axe 5 retal counter pressure & superior sustain. Many long time Mesmer mains are not quite aware of what a real counter feels like, because they've been playing Mesmer for so long. Mirages do not have counters, they only have things that can potentially damage them 1v1. Now you're talking team fights that's different. Condi Mirage isn't so hot in team fights, that's a completely different dynamic. But moral of the story is that Condi Mirage is still the superior 1v1 side nodding class in the game, amongst higher tiers. Whereas things like Boonbeasts, Spellbreakers, DEs and all of that, they have weaknesses and counters to drive them off nodes, or ways to kill them easily with 2v1 focus or greater, Condi Mirage can just immediately disengage and escape bad situations like that and reposition itself to go win 1v1s somewhere else. Now the final part of this rant, is to address an important part of your question, which was "would a 2 shot power burst be any better?" Now we're getting into the realm of the dynamic difference in mechanics between "the burst" and "damage per second". A burst build generally has obvious tells and significant CD factor before it can burst again. During a burst build's CD before it winds up to attempt its burst again, it usually has poor damage output that doesn't need to be so aggressively dodged or avoided. This grants time for the opponent to cycle his defenses to counter the burst again once it's launched. <- This is why burst builds although great at sneak +ing, are not usually ever good 1v1 side noders in general. Now something like a Condi Mirage not only has the diversity to launch a power/condi burst if it wants to, but it also has the diversity to choose to slow down that burst over the course of time to create a greater "Damage per second" effect, where all of that damage can't be avoided and it doesn't matter what class is being played against it or how good the defender is. You can argue that "a DE has a stronger burst than a Condi Mirage" and you would be correct. But is a stronger burst necessarily more practical damage? Is a stronger burst necessarily more damage per second over the course of a 2 minute 1v1? The Condi Mirage has much more practical damage application than any other class in the game "You're gonna get hit a lot when you fight a Condi Mirage, no way around it." Due to this, the Condi Mirage has much greater damage per second than any other class in conquest. <- And that is what makes it the superior 1v1 class in the game. Well, that and how it can freely disengage and reset and come back when it needs to.

 

Yeah so getting back to confuse/torment. Yes, I would rather have a dps soulbeast or a DE + me than a Condi Mirage. I could actually win a 1v2 that was consisting of DE & Scourge, just retreat from the slow Scourge temp and down the DE and then go back for Scourge, possibly cleave trap the Scourge if it tries to res DE. But a Condi Mirage + Scourge? Naaaaaaah time to bail the node. Why run from that fight? Because I WILL be getting hit with Confuse & Torment, I can't randomly dodge and clear everything. And when I do get hit with Confuse & Torment and I am out of condi clears, I won't be able to afford to stand still and stop using skills to mitigate its damage while I am getting 2v1'd. You know the more I think about though, I don't think it's necessarily Confuse & Torment that are the direct problems. I think it's that Condi Mirage just has too much pressure and when that pressure runs you out of condi cleanse, it's pretty obnoxious to soft CC'd into the ground with Confuse & Torment when something is already capable of staying on top of your head with teleports.

 

[Crab Fear.1624]

There is a class that can consistently apply both along with blind and burning....and social give poison... on top of extreme mobility...stealth...and evasion...what class is that?

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> There is a class that can consistently apply both along with blind and burning....and social give poison... on top of extreme mobility...stealth...and evasion...what class is that?

 

Asura Condition Dragon Hunter with Trapper Runes and Torment+Doom Sigil combo?

[Crab Fear.1624]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > There is a class that can consistently apply both along with blind and burning....and social give poison... on top of extreme mobility...stealth...and evasion...what class is that?

>

> Asura Condition Dragon Hunter with Trapper Runes?

 

Dead

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > > There is a class that can consistently apply both along with blind and burning....and social give poison... on top of extreme mobility...stealth...and evasion...what class is that?

> >

> > Asura Condition Dragon Hunter with Trapper Runes?

>

> Dead

 

I forgot to mention Superior Sigil of Torment.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> >

> > Would a Soubleast or Deadeye or any other power burst build that "randomly appears out of nowhere" and instantly deletes a large chunk of your health (or even one- or two-shots you) be better?

> >

>

> Yes because a Soulbeast & DE bursts have more tells than Condi Mirage. Intermediate and lower players probably have trouble dodging a sic em rapid fire or a DE who comes out of stealth with Death's Judgment, but in reality at higher tiers of play, this is all much easier to avoid than Condi Mirage pressure. There are a few reasons for this:

> * Higher tiered players have much stronger map awareness. In the case of a Soulbeast, its stealthing is limited so better players have their eyes on where a Soulbeast is and what build it is running. If it is identified as a glass cannon, better players are already positioned to not get hit by cheap shots as soon as it approaches a combat engagement. Even if the Soulbeasts quick stealths, It gets limited short stealths, leaving a very telegraphed margin of time in which it can land a Maul or WI, which is easy to avoid. Glass cannons are also much much much easier to kill than a Condi Mirage. They literally have about 10x less the sustain as a Condi Mirage, and that is no over-exaggeration. All it takes is a single Herald to pressure it and it removes it from the combat. If two were to pressure the glass cannon such as a Herald and Spellbreaker, it dies unless it retreats from the combat completely, and even then it won't be able to outrun even a single Herald. In the case of Boonbeast, its practical damage and chase power is nothing compared to something like a Condi Mirage. By "practical damage" I mean, "how easy and consistently its attacks can even hit a player who is retreating or kiting it". A Boonbeast is strong while defending a node and pushing others off that node, but its attacks are not good for chasing or trying to kill an opponent who is kiting. The best it has is smoke assault into a WI or Maul, which is ridiculous telegraphed and easy to dodge. Outside of that, it has no burst damage. So yeah,, If you want to point out the differences between Soulbeast + vs. Condi Mirage +, there ya go ^ Condi Mirage is a much more dangerous +.

 

I'll take your word for it about greater map and build awareness at higher levels, but your scenario involves getting plussed while fighting a necro on node. Do even the PvP greats consistently notice a stealthed plus moving in during the heat of battle? Let alone average players? Your original scenario mentioned nothing about "higher tiers of play" but what you say here seems focused on that.

 

The basic point I was making is that condition damage in general, including confusion and torment, even applied in burst, has more counter play than equivalent direct damage, since the former can be negated or mitigated before or after application in various ways, whereas there is only one way to avoid direct damage, and that's not to get hit by it.

 

> * In the case of Deadeyes, when you're talking higher tiered play, DE's lose 1v1s my good bro.

 

But isn't your scenario a + situation? Which is exactly where DE excels?

 

> Condi Mirage is the least telegraphed class in the game. Literally every skill they have can be used in any order to toss things up and keep the fight confusing. <- This is an enormously powerful factor that other classes/builds are not able to do so casually as Condi Mirage. In other words, it's extremely difficult to judge what the Condi Mirage is going to do next.

 

I basically agree. That is the nature, character, and theme of mesmer in general, and can be admittedly challenging, or as some say, "unfun" to play against. It is a "trickster" profession. Personally, I wouldn't be against shaving mesmer damage somewhat in exchange for its reliance on literal confusion, deception, and trickery to outplay its opponents. It could be more about clever use of skills and utilities and less about DPS.

 

> Now along with that mixed damage output which is powerful, most of it is coming from skills that have little to no tell at all. Shatter skills as example, just big rando explosions that can be spammed all at once with little to no animation time whatsoever.

 

Clone shatter entails clones running towards and converging on their target. Isn't that a pretty big tell?

 

> You know the more I think about though, I don't think it's necessarily Confuse & Torment that are the direct problems. I think it's that Condi Mirage just has too much pressure and when that pressure runs you out of condi cleanse, it's pretty obnoxious to soft CC'd into the ground with Confuse & Torment when something is already capable of staying on top of your head with teleports.

 

What do the only two viable PvP condi classes have in common? Ability to keep enough condi pressure on to matter. One is a team fighter, the other is a duelist. If we accept the premise that condi isn't really an issue, can we envision a viable condi class that doesn't play similar to Scourge in team fights and Mirage in duels? I suppose it gets a bit off the OP, but these are topics that follow a discussion of whether condition play should be changed, and by extension, whether the viable condi classes should be.

[MyPuppy.8970]

The problem is more often than not the cover condis that come with torment and confusion. Add to that the clones/phantasms that take most of the cleave damage and the blinds, there is little possibility for counter pressure left. Sure you can stand still and stow your weapons, eat some direct damage and wait to cleanse the damaging condis, but it's not likely the mesmer(s) will idly wait for you to be ready to fight back. Not even taking into consideration the fact that the mesmer(s) may not be your only opponent. Anyway, by the time you've cleansed all the stuff you'd better have dodges ready or eat another whole bunch of condis.

 

I'm fine with mesmers in general, but I can understand why it can be frustrating to play against.

 

 

[Abazigal.3679]

There are good points in this thread, but totally off the real issue. We're talking about confusion and torment because it's a plague to face mesmers usually, not because of the conditions themselves.

 

What's an issue is that there isn't a build that will win 90% of the time against mirage, regardless player's skill. When you're facing 2 scourges 2 mirages in gold division, you already know it's going to be boring since you have no facilitators to beat that setup.

Playing warrior for a long time, i'm not having it hard against mirages usually, but i'm still finding it too easy to drop 1v1, even against average mirages.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"phokus.8934" said:

> Torment is fine as it is but one change that needs to happen is how confusion is cleansed.

>

> Cleansing abilities shouldn't count towards confusing damage on use.

 

ANET time to bring HEXES and HEX clenses....

 

Some conditions actually need to bexome hexes efect it would help alot the balance o the game overtime.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

> @"Abazigal.3679" said:

>

> What's an issue is that there isn't a build that will win 90% of the time against mirage, regardless player's skill.

 

How many professions do have a counter build that can beat them 90% of the time regardless of skill? Is that even desirable?

 

 

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

My two cents to OP's post as a fellow necro:

 

1. Torment needs to have it's base tick damage lowered. Since much like confusion it's a condi with a "trigger" (in this case moving) it's base damage when enemy plays against it (stops moving) should not be the same as standard condies like bleeds or poison. That's not rewarding proper counterplay and making this condition a win when compared to bleeds no matter what.

 

2. confusion is a fair condition if we're in a duel. But in a larger scale matchup your counterplay means jack, because even if you stopped moving and taking action, another enemy will just burst you down with his damage, even if mesmer's own went down the drain, thanks to your "counterplay".

 

So yeah, maybe cleanses not triggering confusion if they will remove it is a good suggestion. As a necro i would also enjoy some decrease condi duration defense in my lines (i know i got strong condi damage reduction in death magic, but vs confusion stacking shorter duration lets you start acting before it's too late).

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Abazigal.3679" said:

> There are good points in this thread, but totally off the real issue. We're talking about confusion and torment because it's a plague to face mesmers usually, not because of the conditions themselves.

>

> What's an issue is that there isn't a build that will win 90% of the time against mirage, regardless player's skill. When you're facing 2 scourges 2 mirages in gold division, you already know it's going to be boring since you have no facilitators to beat that setup.

> Playing warrior for a long time, i'm not having it hard against mirages usually, but i'm still finding it too easy to drop 1v1, even against average mirages.

 

[boonbeast](https://www.godsofpvp.net/builds/ranger/ "Boonbeast"). Equal skill Mirage should never be winning that match up. There's a reason Helio mained this build to get ranks 1,2 and three on all his accounts on NA this season when he used to main Warrior and Rev. It can literally just facetank all of the mirage's damage without giving a crap, doesn't even have to dodge, or kite, or rotate through defensive skills to be that survivable, and has high kill potential against mirage.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> My two cents to OP's post as a fellow necro:

>

> 1. Torment needs to have it's base tick damage lowered. Since much like confusion it's a condi with a "trigger" (in this case moving) it's base damage when enemy plays against it (stops moving) should not be the same as standard condies like bleeds or poison. That's not rewarding proper counterplay and making this condition a win when compared to bleeds no matter what.

 

I think this would be fair and smart change for SPvP.

 

> 2. confusion is a fair condition if we're in a duel. But in a larger scale matchup your counterplay means jack, because even if you stopped moving and taking action, another enemy will just burst you down with his damage, even if mesmer's own went down the drain, thanks to your "counterplay".

 

Being jumped 2v1 or getting pressured by 2 people at once in a team fight is always an extremely lethal and unfair circumstance to be in.

 

> So yeah, maybe cleanses not triggering confusion if they will remove it is a good suggestion. As a necro i would also enjoy some decrease condi duration defense in my lines (i know i got strong condi damage reduction in death magic, but vs confusion stacking shorter duration lets you start acting before it's too late).

Cleanses do not trigger confusion so long as they are instant cast already.