Axl.8924 Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said: > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said: > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > So long as it has access to so much AoE coverage and boon denial with such high inbuilt sustain it will never *lead* in DPS. Nor should it. These things don't matter in PvE because ANet does not make them matter in PvE. But necromancer is responsible for and continues to have the tightest strangehold on the meta in the PvP modes of all classes. > > > > > > > > Scourge in particular was a mistake because it exacerbated existing problems with necro being entirely what causes metas to change and generally dominant in the PvP formats, while feeling underwhelming in PvE because of how much self-sustain and how much area control they gave it. > > > > > > > > Not to mention that if you're not having fun just because you're not the best for PvE of all things, you should do some evaluation. Necro is one of the most diverse classes due to its specs covering vastly different playstyles, so I highly doubt it's a lack of enjoyment from playstyle. > > > > > > a lot of its POTENTIAL DAMAGE locked behind boon corruption, now boon corrupt is good in PVP and zerging WvW, PVE? it is HEAVILY INCONSISTANT AT BEST... PVE content that does have boons either don't re-apply them in regular intervals to keep getting the value and thus it is just 1 small burst of extra damage at the start > > > > This sounds to me like it's a good portion of the problem, then. See, what ANet has failed to do is actually make any PvE encounter even closely resemble PvP such that things like weakness and cripple are worthless to be spewing because bosses don't even get affected by them, and because bosses don't re-apply their boons. > > > > They could also just as easily give bosses massive applications of vigor and regeneration even if the bosses don't necessarily use these mechanics just to help improve DPS via necro corruption rather than comps opting for boon stripping. And then they could buff the corruption table for things like bleeding/poison for PvE. That's not a necro problem so much as a boss behavior problem. The PvE issues necro has have literally nothing to do with any innate weakness of the class at this point. > > > > And given the fact that condi scourge is objectively so high on the damage charts as of right now which a ton of people are posting... I don't understand why you'd proclaim it's useless and not fun. > > > > >EPI WAS NOT OP THEN > > Yes it kinda was. 5 necros was meta in fractals for a while and it was so OP that even me as someone who hasn't played PvE in any capacity, including living story since early season 3 heard about it. And it was not skilled and trivialized the entire game. Epi was boring AF to use. Press a button and get obscene damage while you sit there basically doing nothing else. That's not what GW2 is about. > > > > > Want Damage Warriors. period or Ele's > > > Want Support? Druid > > > Want Condi Damage? Again Warrior, or Mesmer, or even Rev > > > > > > Necro excels only at AOE boon corrupt and that is VERY situational and those situations are only PVP and WvW and not even in every situation I would be fine for them to nerf the AOE boon corrupt and give Necro more HARD condis of bleed, torment, etc that way you remove potency of them in WvW and PvP and give them back strength in PVE, just scepter auto attack 3rd in the AA chain is enough condi corrupt for PVE most of the time you HARDLY IF EVER need more then that > > > > If necro excels at any of those categories it becomes the best class period, because then there's no identity for the other classes to fulfill because it has such high baseline potential in all three without needing build investment thanks to shroud's innate defenses and the utility scourge brings. > > > > It's not meant to be an optimal condition damage dealer, either. It's meant to utilize conditions to control fights, like through weakness to negate incoming damage and fear and cripple to lock down and kite enemies. Again, this is a problem with the encounters in "high end" PvE; they're all extremely narrow-scoped, and to be honest, as soon as necro advances in something over another class, someone else gets thrown out of the meta. Even if everyone did exactly the same damage, people would kick because one class would be more reliable in dealing its damage at more levels of skill or have slightly higher self-sustain. > > > > Necro can't be balanced with the trinity system in mind because GW2 as a whole wasn't ever intended to have the trinity system and "high end" PvE in mind from a class perspective. Adjusting the classes will not fix PvE because the issues in PvE are bigger than numbers tweaks to professions. > > > > And if you nerf necro's corruption ability, then many professions also need to be nerfed in their boon applications, especially Firebrand. I agree with this, but it's impossible to do in a fair way because of Concentration and how overpowered boons are. So then ANet needs to nerf a lot of boons and baseline damage coefficients and condition application because without nerfs to direct power everyone will just one-shot one another once boons are nerfed out of the meta. And then necro ends up needing to get nerfed because it outdamages everything, can tank super well thanks to its high baseline levels of sustain, and can shut down the limited number of resistance floating around. So then you're back at square 1 because something else will out-DPS it. > > > > While I'd love to see the above happen because the PvP modes aren't that fun anymore when everyone has massively-inflated stats and necros thus basically control the game, anything short of a full-on game-wide rework of all professions breaks virtually everything. > > > > Much easier to make some better encounters that the necro is good into, and maybe buff its corruption in PvE-only so it means even a small fraction of what it does in the PvP modes. > > > > Because if it mattered as much as it does in the PvP modes, we'd see most groups probably running 2 FB 8 scourge. > > your thing about Epi being OP it had to be OP because how necro applies its damage is increasing DPS over time to a SINGLE TARGET most of tis AOES are boon corrupt not condi applying that is why Epi was needed to be somewhat OP so that you could spread at least to a degree that single target damage to multiple enemies or Necro would need to have THE BEST single target damage amongst all classes to balance out their poor AoE damage when you compare say a warrior able to do their high power damage without any build up to multiple mobs, and you keep saying necro has high sustain, it does not have that much sustain because it does not give that many boons to itself or allies, the only REALLY notable thing is death shroud which that can EASILY be burned out of quit quickly that is the only thing truly "sustain" about necros unless you speck into low damage but high sustain with the trait that turns 10% of condi damage into heals (can't think of the name off the top of my head" and I NEVER SAID i wanted necro TO BE THE BE ALL END ALL DAMAGE and it should out damage every class, no i want it to be on par if not SLIGHTLY BETTER due to its long ramp up time to get its damage going and that unless it is kept up upon that damage will be lost unlike power builds. again that is where Epi was great because it offered a damage boost for co-ordination and only on certain encounters where there was adds to bounce them to the boss. to bring 2 necros or more and using that co-ordination should be rewarded so really in PVE no EPI was not OP because it was severly needed since necro has no good AoE condition application other then Epi but now Epi is pretty much near worthless and your part about making End game PVE feel more like PVP that would be bad because people playing PVE want to play PVE they don't want to play PVE but feel like they are playing PVP or else they would just play PVP In my opinion you could help alleviate the problem if necros were overhauled to be all defensive in shroud and all offensive outside shroud, that way you lose all you are forced to lose all sustain while dpsing and you lose all dps while sustaining. If it was overhauled that all abilities in reaper were made instead of being offensive, they were defensive, such as abilities to cc and use shield and stuff, you could have higher dps, because you could blow them up fairly easy if they are dpsing and not messing around, and if the cost is made to fit the defensive tools, necros would have to think on their feet of do i want to use aegis on 1 etc or not? The problem is, that a lot of people would be fairly unhappy with these changes, at least some would, but necro does need overhauls badly. If you look at the loss of sustain, necros didnt need to lose even more sustain for reaper. It is already too easy to kill a reaper outside reaper shroud with the duration, and they got further nerfs in sustain and got a easy arrow that says kill me outside shroud in the form of soul barbs. Necro needs either this, or to have sustain built into its weapons, because if its going to be so glassy, it better hit as hard as other glassy builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saloja.7920 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 I love this thread, lots of information in it! What strikes me as odd on the conversation are the casual references to dps. I get that it is a benchmark, but I feel if you want to debate over anything other than a benchmark, you don't use benchmark numbers. Sure 29k damage is a lot less than the double dagger deadeye's 38k, but there isn't a player alive who does even 29k damage on a thief in any encounter. Encounters have variables, benchmarks do not. Variables such as range, position, placement and aoe/single target switching. A necromancer is a class with very forgiving mechanics on - positioning = doesn't have to hit from the back. - range = does not need to move that much (this always affects performance no matter what people say). - aoe/st = has inbuilt aoe capabilities, our example of a thief requires a build change. I'm not jumping in on the argument which class is the best in everything, but all those things I've listed above are things that have detrimental effects on dps. What I'd love to see debated over are fight logs, as in, effective dps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said: > > your thing about Epi being OP it had to be OP because how necro applies its damage is increasing DPS over time to a SINGLE TARGET most of tis AOES are boon corrupt Not sure what you are smoking. Epi was overpowered and still is overpowered. It is the single highest damage skill in game when copying the maximum amount of conditions. Does it require setup to do so? Yes. Doesn't change the fact that it is insanely strong still and was absolutely broken before. I think you are rather out of touch with the meta and class and are simply going by what you have read and forum drama. I see power reapers and condi scourge perform very nicely in fractals. Support scrouge is becoming more and more popular in both fractals and raids (I should know, I play one occasionally). As far as the benchmark comments: yes let's complain that a class benchmarks 10% lower on single target while having the most powerful cleave skill in game (not even talking about epi bouncing if you ran more than 1 necromancer in a fractal group). It's not the class, it's you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 > @"saloja.7920" said: > I love this thread, lots of information in it! > > What strikes me as odd on the conversation are the casual references to dps. I get that it is a benchmark, but I feel if you want to debate over anything other than a benchmark, you don't use benchmark numbers. > > Sure 29k damage is a lot less than the double dagger deadeye's 38k, but there isn't a player alive who does even 29k damage on a thief in any encounter. Encounters have variables, benchmarks do not. Variables such as range, position, placement and aoe/single target switching. A necromancer is a class with very forgiving mechanics on > - positioning = doesn't have to hit from the back. > - range = does not need to move that much (this always affects performance no matter what people say). > - aoe/st = has inbuilt aoe capabilities, our example of a thief requires a build change. > > I'm not jumping in on the argument which class is the best in everything, but all those things I've listed above are things that have detrimental effects on dps. What I'd love to see debated over are fight logs, as in, effective dps. When people debate on fight log they summon the infamous _Raidar_ which show, in fact, that the range of damage for a necromancer is as much affected in combat than it is for other professions. You point out an "interesting" advantage which is the ability to do aoe damage, however, most professions are proficient in aoe damage even if it's mostly "cleave damage". The point being that against a single entity (a boss) aoe damage aren't more valuable than single target damage (only exception being "impact skills", often found on elementalist's skills, that have a set number of impacts performing well on large targets). People like to perceive themselve as "good players" and thus always want the best of the best. On another hand, the necromancer undoubtly have a dps handicap against single target and the support it give to the party can be seen as embarassing if you see yourself as a "good player". It's forever been the case and there is a strong inertia of "necro hate" in PvE that you just can't stop with the necromancer being just below average than _all_ other professions. The fact that the necromancer is loaded with tools that are designed around PvP also make any buff to them, in order to increase the necromancer's PvE efficiency, awkward and even balance breaking. The reality is that PvE and PvP are vastly different gamemodes and PvP tools aren't adapted to PvE. For example, part of the necromancer's condi dps is supposed to be assumed by boon corruption, however while the impact of boon corruption on player is huge, it's impact on a single boss when amongst a group of 10 players is null (and will most likely remain null even if ANet increased boons on bosses). The same goes for any personnal boon that the necromancer give himself, it does have an impressive impact in PvP, but in an organized group fight these boons are already taken into account as being shared by the supports and thus the impressive advantage that you might have had when playing solo is again reindered void/null. An interresting point could be minions. The philosophy behind a minion master is that individually a minion won't do much damage but the more you got the more damage you'll do. (Un)fortunately ANet choose to make minions dull and limited (which is totally understandable when you consider the game as a whole) which prevent them from being able to count toward "efficiency". Also, in another thread I pointed out something important which is the value of being able to "specialize" in a role. The necromancer is bound by it's core design, unable to really specialize himself in a role. This fact make him dull in every role in a game where players look for extrem specialists that they can pair with other specialists in order to achieve the maximum efficiency possible. The scourge try to part from this core design and at the same time lamentably fail at doing so. To many things are tied to the "shroud" and ANet was to shy to let go of some of those things when they designed the scourge which is the reason why it failed. Those kind of threads are bound to appear now and then because the necromancer isn't able to specialize in anything else than WvW zergling. Until ANet really end up allowing the necromancer to specialize and be competitive in a "role" which can be applied to the whole game, there will be people complaining that the necromancer is lacking and there will be people which will continue to discriminate against necromancers in some part of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xxnecroxx.4039 Posted January 17, 2019 Author Share Posted January 17, 2019 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said: > > > > your thing about Epi being OP it had to be OP because how necro applies its damage is increasing DPS over time to a SINGLE TARGET most of tis AOES are boon corrupt > > Not sure what you are smoking. Epi was overpowered and still is overpowered. > > It is the single highest damage skill in game when copying the maximum amount of conditions. Does it require setup to do so? Yes. Doesn't change the fact that it is insanely strong still and was absolutely broken before. > > I think you are rather out of touch with the meta and class and are simply going by what you have read and forum drama. I see power reapers and condi scourge perform very nicely in fractals. Support scrouge is becoming more and more popular in both fractals and raids (I should know, I play one occasionally). As far as the benchmark comments: yes let's complain that a class benchmarks 10% lower on single target while having the most powerful cleave skill in game (not even talking about epi bouncing if you ran more than 1 necromancer in a fractal group). > > It's not the class, it's you. I should be asking wtf you smoking Epi was not OP, you try to get a good and consistant amount of condis on more then 1 target without epi, o wait even with epi due to all the nerfs THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE, because there is very few AoE condi abilities and most of them SUCK. the only good one WAS EPI but now it is complete crap. but yet many other professions have good AoE abilities, especially power builds. they don't need ramp up time UNLIKE CONDI. its just as soon as they start hitting the target they are doing their damage, no with condi's it needs constant care to ramp up and build up the damage/condis, Epi allowed you to not have to RESET your progress when your target dies and you start on another one. Epi was fine if not clunky in the form it was in before its latest nerf, now epi is just another lackluster boring and most of the time useless utility skill. necro was already bad and they made it worse by nerfing epi AGAIN. if it did not have the 25 condition cap when transferring condis then ok I would agree with you but it was fine. and no it is the class because the only thing that necro does good in is boon corruption, you do anything that does not need boon corruption you can take pretty much ANY OTHER DAMAGE PROFRESSION, heck even when the boons are not that severe you can just take boon strip and run something that will do a lot more damage then necro. Necro is the weakest profession PERIOD. the only reason why it is not dead is because no other professions can boon corrupt, but since there is boon strip it is a cheap alternative while the class can and in most cases will either provide more utility to the group or more damage then necro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said: > > > > > > your thing about Epi being OP it had to be OP because how necro applies its damage is increasing DPS over time to a SINGLE TARGET most of tis AOES are boon corrupt > > > > Not sure what you are smoking. Epi was overpowered and still is overpowered. > > > > It is the single highest damage skill in game when copying the maximum amount of conditions. Does it require setup to do so? Yes. Doesn't change the fact that it is insanely strong still and was absolutely broken before. > > > > I think you are rather out of touch with the meta and class and are simply going by what you have read and forum drama. I see power reapers and condi scourge perform very nicely in fractals. Support scrouge is becoming more and more popular in both fractals and raids (I should know, I play one occasionally). As far as the benchmark comments: yes let's complain that a class benchmarks 10% lower on single target while having the most powerful cleave skill in game (not even talking about epi bouncing if you ran more than 1 necromancer in a fractal group). > > > > It's not the class, it's you. > > I should be asking kitten you smoking Epi was not OP, you try to get a good and consistant amount of condis on more then 1 target without epi, o wait even with epi due to all the nerfs THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE, because there is very few AoE condi abilities and most of them SUCK. the only good one WAS EPI but now it is complete kitten. but yet many other professions have good AoE abilities, especially power builds. they don't need ramp up time UNLIKE CONDI. its just as soon as they start hitting the target they are doing their damage, no with condi's it needs constant care to ramp up and build up the damage/condis, Epi allowed you to not have to RESET your progress when your target dies and you start on another one. Epi was fine if not clunky in the form it was in before its latest nerf, now epi is just another lackluster boring and most of the time useless utility skill. necro was already bad and they made it worse by nerfing epi AGAIN. if it did not have the 25 condition cap when transferring condis then ok I would agree with you but it was fine. > > and no it is the class because the only thing that necro does good in is boon corruption, you do anything that does not need boon corruption you can take pretty much ANY OTHER DAMAGE PROFRESSION, heck even when the boons are not that severe you can just take boon strip and run something that will do a lot more damage then necro. Necro is the weakest profession PERIOD. the only reason why it is not dead is because no other professions can boon corrupt, but since there is boon strip it is a cheap alternative while the class can and in most cases will either provide more utility to the group or more damage then necro I'm sorry, I can't take you serious when you consider a skill which copies 25 stacks of all damage conditions (even at -50% duration) balanced. **Epidemic is the HIGHEST damage skill in game. Not among condition skills, among ALL damage skills.** The fact that it needs a setup is irrelevant since the setup for this skill is not hard once you have 2 condition classes (solo necromancer works too but won't get all condis). The only downside is that it won't work on single targets without things to bounce off. Hence why I said it is ludicrous to complain about single target golem dps when the class has the most powerful aoe cleave there is. It was insanely overpowered and is still overpowered. Not advocating for nerfs, but I will call out something like this. Also once again, power reaper and condi scourge are very viable. So is heal scourge. Maybe instead of complaining actually try one of these builds and get some experience on them. As far as boon corrupt/cleanse, you are wrong here too. Spellbreaker, Renegade and mesmer say high. I don't know of any pve content which requires boon corruption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xxnecroxx.4039 Posted January 18, 2019 Author Share Posted January 18, 2019 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said: > > > > > > > > your thing about Epi being OP it had to be OP because how necro applies its damage is increasing DPS over time to a SINGLE TARGET most of tis AOES are boon corrupt > > > > > > Not sure what you are smoking. Epi was overpowered and still is overpowered. > > > > > > It is the single highest damage skill in game when copying the maximum amount of conditions. Does it require setup to do so? Yes. Doesn't change the fact that it is insanely strong still and was absolutely broken before. > > > > > > I think you are rather out of touch with the meta and class and are simply going by what you have read and forum drama. I see power reapers and condi scourge perform very nicely in fractals. Support scrouge is becoming more and more popular in both fractals and raids (I should know, I play one occasionally). As far as the benchmark comments: yes let's complain that a class benchmarks 10% lower on single target while having the most powerful cleave skill in game (not even talking about epi bouncing if you ran more than 1 necromancer in a fractal group). > > > > > > It's not the class, it's you. > > > > I should be asking kitten you smoking Epi was not OP, you try to get a good and consistant amount of condis on more then 1 target without epi, o wait even with epi due to all the nerfs THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE, because there is very few AoE condi abilities and most of them SUCK. the only good one WAS EPI but now it is complete kitten. but yet many other professions have good AoE abilities, especially power builds. they don't need ramp up time UNLIKE CONDI. its just as soon as they start hitting the target they are doing their damage, no with condi's it needs constant care to ramp up and build up the damage/condis, Epi allowed you to not have to RESET your progress when your target dies and you start on another one. Epi was fine if not clunky in the form it was in before its latest nerf, now epi is just another lackluster boring and most of the time useless utility skill. necro was already bad and they made it worse by nerfing epi AGAIN. if it did not have the 25 condition cap when transferring condis then ok I would agree with you but it was fine. > > > > and no it is the class because the only thing that necro does good in is boon corruption, you do anything that does not need boon corruption you can take pretty much ANY OTHER DAMAGE PROFRESSION, heck even when the boons are not that severe you can just take boon strip and run something that will do a lot more damage then necro. Necro is the weakest profession PERIOD. the only reason why it is not dead is because no other professions can boon corrupt, but since there is boon strip it is a cheap alternative while the class can and in most cases will either provide more utility to the group or more damage then necro > > I'm sorry, I can't take you serious when you consider a skill which copies 25 stacks of all damage conditions (even at -50% duration) balanced. > > **Epidemic is the HIGHEST damage skill in game. Not among condition skills, among ALL damage skills.** The fact that it needs a setup is irrelevant since the setup for this skill is not hard once you have 2 condition classes (solo necromancer works too but won't get all condis). The only downside is that it won't work on single targets without things to bounce off. Hence why I said it is ludicrous to complain about single target golem dps when the class has the most powerful aoe cleave there is. > > It was insanely overpowered and is still overpowered. Not advocating for nerfs, but I will call out something like this. > > Also once again, power reaper and condi scourge are very viable. So is heal scourge. Maybe instead of complaining actually try one of these builds and get some experience on them. > > As far as boon corrupt/cleanse, you are wrong here too. Spellbreaker, Renegade and mesmer say high. I don't know of any pve content which requires boon corruption. if Epi is and was as OP as you say it is and I mean this in PVE btw, then why was it that even with Epi bounce necros where still getting out dmged in encounters and even before the Epi nerf necro was not doing good in terms of damage EVEN WITH EPI BOUNCING, and epi bouncing only increases the damage of 1 person WITH 2 SLOTS INVESTED in a party so if the class was only good even with this OMG MEGA OP ABILITY that no one was complaining about, then what does that say about the damage of the class? the skill was FINE it was not GAME BREAKING and it did require CO-ORDINATION. it allowed necros to apply conditions TO MORE THEN 1 TARGET without making their damage per target worse then that of a AA staff necro. but if it was OP and not needed then please tell everyone how condi necros where supposed to deal with encounters that had more then 1 target? o wait you cant. and you misread my post about condis and boon corrupting I said that CURRENTLY because of how bad necro is their boon corruption does nothing that good because you can just bring a class that BOON STRIPS and get more damage out of them MAKING NECRO NEARLY USELESS AT THIS POINT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimon.7840 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said: > > > > > > > > > > your thing about Epi being OP it had to be OP because how necro applies its damage is increasing DPS over time to a SINGLE TARGET most of tis AOES are boon corrupt > > > > > > > > Not sure what you are smoking. Epi was overpowered and still is overpowered. > > > > > > > > It is the single highest damage skill in game when copying the maximum amount of conditions. Does it require setup to do so? Yes. Doesn't change the fact that it is insanely strong still and was absolutely broken before. > > > > > > > > I think you are rather out of touch with the meta and class and are simply going by what you have read and forum drama. I see power reapers and condi scourge perform very nicely in fractals. Support scrouge is becoming more and more popular in both fractals and raids (I should know, I play one occasionally). As far as the benchmark comments: yes let's complain that a class benchmarks 10% lower on single target while having the most powerful cleave skill in game (not even talking about epi bouncing if you ran more than 1 necromancer in a fractal group). > > > > > > > > It's not the class, it's you. > > > > > > I should be asking kitten you smoking Epi was not OP, you try to get a good and consistant amount of condis on more then 1 target without epi, o wait even with epi due to all the nerfs THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE, because there is very few AoE condi abilities and most of them SUCK. the only good one WAS EPI but now it is complete kitten. but yet many other professions have good AoE abilities, especially power builds. they don't need ramp up time UNLIKE CONDI. its just as soon as they start hitting the target they are doing their damage, no with condi's it needs constant care to ramp up and build up the damage/condis, Epi allowed you to not have to RESET your progress when your target dies and you start on another one. Epi was fine if not clunky in the form it was in before its latest nerf, now epi is just another lackluster boring and most of the time useless utility skill. necro was already bad and they made it worse by nerfing epi AGAIN. if it did not have the 25 condition cap when transferring condis then ok I would agree with you but it was fine. > > > > > > and no it is the class because the only thing that necro does good in is boon corruption, you do anything that does not need boon corruption you can take pretty much ANY OTHER DAMAGE PROFRESSION, heck even when the boons are not that severe you can just take boon strip and run something that will do a lot more damage then necro. Necro is the weakest profession PERIOD. the only reason why it is not dead is because no other professions can boon corrupt, but since there is boon strip it is a cheap alternative while the class can and in most cases will either provide more utility to the group or more damage then necro > > > > I'm sorry, I can't take you serious when you consider a skill which copies 25 stacks of all damage conditions (even at -50% duration) balanced. > > > > **Epidemic is the HIGHEST damage skill in game. Not among condition skills, among ALL damage skills.** The fact that it needs a setup is irrelevant since the setup for this skill is not hard once you have 2 condition classes (solo necromancer works too but won't get all condis). The only downside is that it won't work on single targets without things to bounce off. Hence why I said it is ludicrous to complain about single target golem dps when the class has the most powerful aoe cleave there is. > > > > It was insanely overpowered and is still overpowered. Not advocating for nerfs, but I will call out something like this. > > > > Also once again, power reaper and condi scourge are very viable. So is heal scourge. Maybe instead of complaining actually try one of these builds and get some experience on them. > > > > As far as boon corrupt/cleanse, you are wrong here too. Spellbreaker, Renegade and mesmer say high. I don't know of any pve content which requires boon corruption. > > if Epi is and was as OP as you say it is and I mean this in PVE btw, then why was it that even with Epi bounce necros where still getting out dmged in encounters and even before the Epi nerf necro was not doing good in terms of damage EVEN WITH EPI BOUNCING, and epi bouncing only increases the damage of 1 person WITH 2 SLOTS INVESTED in a party so if the class was only good even with this OMG MEGA OP ABILITY that no one was complaining about, then what does that say about the damage of the class? the skill was FINE it was not GAME BREAKING and it did require CO-ORDINATION. it allowed necros to apply conditions TO MORE THEN 1 TARGET without making their damage per target worse then that of a AA staff necro. but if it was OP and not needed then please tell everyone how condi necros where supposed to deal with encounters that had more then 1 target? o wait you cant. and you misread my post about condis and boon corrupting I said that CURRENTLY because of how bad necro is their boon corruption does nothing that good because you can just bring a class that BOON STRIPS and get more damage out of them MAKING NECRO NEARLY USELESS AT THIS POINT. please read While I agree, that necros boonstrips are totally useless in pve, because of the boon corrupt table and what boons mobs apply to themselves if they even do it at all. Enemies would need permanent reapplication of vigor, to increase bleed dmg Aegis, to increase burn Regeneration, for poison Retaliation, for confusion. But most mobs that give themselves boons, use might and fury, which gets currupted into non-damaging conditions. But: I also have to disagree. Epi bounce was too strong. You used 1 necro to bounce condis out, and this one necro would increase the DPS of all other necros in your squad/group. Yes it required coordination, and at least a minimum of communication Right now it's just mindlessly spamming holos or mirages, not requiring any communication, but also doing insane amounts of dmg, with not much effort. Did anyone look into scourges dmg rotation? Practically you need to spam everything on cooldown, but always have a 1 second break between using shade abilities. Which is much more challenging to do than nokit holo, that still outdamages scourge. Some people say "but scourge is support" yeah I don't see any support, you are just using everything on cd. You do not care if your team needs barriers or cleanses, you just press them to be able to reach anywhere near the DPS, that all other classes do. And even if it's considered support, what about warrior then? If we look at benchmarks: Scourge 29k Bs warrior 34k While scourge only gives a tiny bit of survivability for 5 people, warrior improves the dmg of the whole squad. That goes even to a point, where builds are dependant on the precision they get from banners, to reach 100% critchance. And that's the real issue I think. That classes get treated so differently without any reason, or the only reasons being "looks cool, what else do you want?" or "sounds cool, what else do you want?" Or "doesn't fit it's theme" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said: > > > > > > > > > > your thing about Epi being OP it had to be OP because how necro applies its damage is increasing DPS over time to a SINGLE TARGET most of tis AOES are boon corrupt > > > > > > > > Not sure what you are smoking. Epi was overpowered and still is overpowered. > > > > > > > > It is the single highest damage skill in game when copying the maximum amount of conditions. Does it require setup to do so? Yes. Doesn't change the fact that it is insanely strong still and was absolutely broken before. > > > > > > > > I think you are rather out of touch with the meta and class and are simply going by what you have read and forum drama. I see power reapers and condi scourge perform very nicely in fractals. Support scrouge is becoming more and more popular in both fractals and raids (I should know, I play one occasionally). As far as the benchmark comments: yes let's complain that a class benchmarks 10% lower on single target while having the most powerful cleave skill in game (not even talking about epi bouncing if you ran more than 1 necromancer in a fractal group). > > > > > > > > It's not the class, it's you. > > > > > > I should be asking kitten you smoking Epi was not OP, you try to get a good and consistant amount of condis on more then 1 target without epi, o wait even with epi due to all the nerfs THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE, because there is very few AoE condi abilities and most of them SUCK. the only good one WAS EPI but now it is complete kitten. but yet many other professions have good AoE abilities, especially power builds. they don't need ramp up time UNLIKE CONDI. its just as soon as they start hitting the target they are doing their damage, no with condi's it needs constant care to ramp up and build up the damage/condis, Epi allowed you to not have to RESET your progress when your target dies and you start on another one. Epi was fine if not clunky in the form it was in before its latest nerf, now epi is just another lackluster boring and most of the time useless utility skill. necro was already bad and they made it worse by nerfing epi AGAIN. if it did not have the 25 condition cap when transferring condis then ok I would agree with you but it was fine. > > > > > > and no it is the class because the only thing that necro does good in is boon corruption, you do anything that does not need boon corruption you can take pretty much ANY OTHER DAMAGE PROFRESSION, heck even when the boons are not that severe you can just take boon strip and run something that will do a lot more damage then necro. Necro is the weakest profession PERIOD. the only reason why it is not dead is because no other professions can boon corrupt, but since there is boon strip it is a cheap alternative while the class can and in most cases will either provide more utility to the group or more damage then necro > > > > I'm sorry, I can't take you serious when you consider a skill which copies 25 stacks of all damage conditions (even at -50% duration) balanced. > > > > **Epidemic is the HIGHEST damage skill in game. Not among condition skills, among ALL damage skills.** The fact that it needs a setup is irrelevant since the setup for this skill is not hard once you have 2 condition classes (solo necromancer works too but won't get all condis). The only downside is that it won't work on single targets without things to bounce off. Hence why I said it is ludicrous to complain about single target golem dps when the class has the most powerful aoe cleave there is. > > > > It was insanely overpowered and is still overpowered. Not advocating for nerfs, but I will call out something like this. > > > > Also once again, power reaper and condi scourge are very viable. So is heal scourge. Maybe instead of complaining actually try one of these builds and get some experience on them. > > > > As far as boon corrupt/cleanse, you are wrong here too. Spellbreaker, Renegade and mesmer say high. I don't know of any pve content which requires boon corruption. > > if Epi is and was as OP as you say it is and I mean this in PVE btw, then why was it that even with Epi bounce necros where still getting out dmged in encounters and even before the Epi nerf necro was not doing good in terms of damage EVEN WITH EPI BOUNCING, and epi bouncing only increases the damage of 1 person WITH 2 SLOTS INVESTED in a party so if the class was only good even with this OMG MEGA OP ABILITY that no one was complaining about, then what does that say about the damage of the class? the skill was FINE it was not GAME BREAKING and it did require CO-ORDINATION. it allowed necros to apply conditions TO MORE THEN 1 TARGET without making their damage per target worse then that of a AA staff necro. but if it was OP and not needed then please tell everyone how condi necros where supposed to deal with encounters that had more then 1 target? o wait you cant. and you misread my post about condis and boon corrupting I said that CURRENTLY because of how bad necro is their boon corruption does nothing that good because you can just bring a class that BOON STRIPS and get more damage out of them MAKING NECRO NEARLY USELESS AT THIS POINT. please read Because they weren't. Dhuum CM was especially run with a full necromancer comp to kill him with epi bouncing off of the add. Soulless Horror speed kills were done with epi bounce. The fact that not every boss was possible to be setup for epi bouncing does not mean that the bosses who were, were not destroyed by it. Even now epi bounce will produce max level dps on Soulless Horror or Dhuum. You are wrong and ill-informed. Also please realize what you were saying and what I am saying. You are comparing a full rotation of classes while I am talking about a single skill. Here is what I am saying: **Epidemic** as a single skill is overpowered and was overpowered. It is one of the reasons why necromancer can't see changes since this skill alone would drastically unbalance any changes since it alone is insanely strong. Here is what you are hearing: **Necromancer** is insanely overpowered. Those 2 are not the same thing. I am not saying epidemic is making up for ALL the other skills a necromencer might be lacking compared to a different class, I am saying EPIDEMIC stand alone as a skill is overpowered by simple math when comparing it to any other damage skill in game. I'm sorry but none of your answers or arguments have in anyway provided me with the assumption you have cleared any challenging content on necromancer/reaper/scourge. So I will repeat for the third time now: play the class and see for your self. Power reaper, epi scourge and scourge heal support are fine. They could use some work, but unless you are running with a top tier snowcrows raid squad, you will be fine. As far as boon corruption, I don't deal with hypothetical situations when arguing a classes merits at a given point in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said: > > > > > > > > your thing about Epi being OP it had to be OP because how necro applies its damage is increasing DPS over time to a SINGLE TARGET most of tis AOES are boon corrupt > > > > > > Not sure what you are smoking. Epi was overpowered and still is overpowered. > > > > > > It is the single highest damage skill in game when copying the maximum amount of conditions. Does it require setup to do so? Yes. Doesn't change the fact that it is insanely strong still and was absolutely broken before. > > > > > > I think you are rather out of touch with the meta and class and are simply going by what you have read and forum drama. I see power reapers and condi scourge perform very nicely in fractals. Support scrouge is becoming more and more popular in both fractals and raids (I should know, I play one occasionally). As far as the benchmark comments: yes let's complain that a class benchmarks 10% lower on single target while having the most powerful cleave skill in game (not even talking about epi bouncing if you ran more than 1 necromancer in a fractal group). > > > > > > It's not the class, it's you. > > > > I should be asking kitten you smoking Epi was not OP, you try to get a good and consistant amount of condis on more then 1 target without epi, o wait even with epi due to all the nerfs THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE, because there is very few AoE condi abilities and most of them SUCK. the only good one WAS EPI but now it is complete kitten. but yet many other professions have good AoE abilities, especially power builds. they don't need ramp up time UNLIKE CONDI. its just as soon as they start hitting the target they are doing their damage, no with condi's it needs constant care to ramp up and build up the damage/condis, Epi allowed you to not have to RESET your progress when your target dies and you start on another one. Epi was fine if not clunky in the form it was in before its latest nerf, now epi is just another lackluster boring and most of the time useless utility skill. necro was already bad and they made it worse by nerfing epi AGAIN. if it did not have the 25 condition cap when transferring condis then ok I would agree with you but it was fine. > > > > and no it is the class because the only thing that necro does good in is boon corruption, you do anything that does not need boon corruption you can take pretty much ANY OTHER DAMAGE PROFRESSION, heck even when the boons are not that severe you can just take boon strip and run something that will do a lot more damage then necro. Necro is the weakest profession PERIOD. the only reason why it is not dead is because no other professions can boon corrupt, but since there is boon strip it is a cheap alternative while the class can and in most cases will either provide more utility to the group or more damage then necro > > I'm sorry, I can't take you serious when you consider a skill which copies 25 stacks of all damage conditions (even at -50% duration) balanced. > > **Epidemic is the HIGHEST damage skill in game. Not among condition skills, among ALL damage skills.** The fact that it needs a setup is irrelevant since the setup for this skill is not hard once you have 2 condition classes (solo necromancer works too but won't get all condis). The only downside is that it won't work on single targets without things to bounce off. Hence why I said it is ludicrous to complain about single target golem dps when the class has the most powerful aoe cleave there is. > > It was insanely overpowered and is still overpowered. Not advocating for nerfs, but I will call out something like this. > > Also once again, power reaper and condi scourge are very viable. So is heal scourge. Maybe instead of complaining actually try one of these builds and get some experience on them. > > As far as boon corrupt/cleanse, you are wrong here too. Spellbreaker, Renegade and mesmer say high. I don't know of any pve content which requires boon corruption. What they need to do is stop making necros more efficient by stacking, and make it so that individual necros are stronger but stacking is less potent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoid.2568 Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 Necro is still fun. Same class as always. Maybe not as powerful as other classes in raids and fractals. Elitists always want the best viable option. Don't play with them then? Find other people to play with. People see fun in different ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said: > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said: > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > So long as it has access to so much AoE coverage and boon denial with such high inbuilt sustain it will never *lead* in DPS. Nor should it. These things don't matter in PvE because ANet does not make them matter in PvE. But necromancer is responsible for and continues to have the tightest strangehold on the meta in the PvP modes of all classes. > > > > > > > > Scourge in particular was a mistake because it exacerbated existing problems with necro being entirely what causes metas to change and generally dominant in the PvP formats, while feeling underwhelming in PvE because of how much self-sustain and how much area control they gave it. > > > > > > > > Not to mention that if you're not having fun just because you're not the best for PvE of all things, you should do some evaluation. Necro is one of the most diverse classes due to its specs covering vastly different playstyles, so I highly doubt it's a lack of enjoyment from playstyle. > > > > > > a lot of its POTENTIAL DAMAGE locked behind boon corruption, now boon corrupt is good in PVP and zerging WvW, PVE? it is HEAVILY INCONSISTANT AT BEST... PVE content that does have boons either don't re-apply them in regular intervals to keep getting the value and thus it is just 1 small burst of extra damage at the start > > > > This sounds to me like it's a good portion of the problem, then. See, what ANet has failed to do is actually make any PvE encounter even closely resemble PvP such that things like weakness and cripple are worthless to be spewing because bosses don't even get affected by them, and because bosses don't re-apply their boons. > > > > They could also just as easily give bosses massive applications of vigor and regeneration even if the bosses don't necessarily use these mechanics just to help improve DPS via necro corruption rather than comps opting for boon stripping. And then they could buff the corruption table for things like bleeding/poison for PvE. That's not a necro problem so much as a boss behavior problem. The PvE issues necro has have literally nothing to do with any innate weakness of the class at this point. > > > > And given the fact that condi scourge is objectively so high on the damage charts as of right now which a ton of people are posting... I don't understand why you'd proclaim it's useless and not fun. > > > > >EPI WAS NOT OP THEN > > Yes it kinda was. 5 necros was meta in fractals for a while and it was so OP that even me as someone who hasn't played PvE in any capacity, including living story since early season 3 heard about it. And it was not skilled and trivialized the entire game. Epi was boring AF to use. Press a button and get obscene damage while you sit there basically doing nothing else. That's not what GW2 is about. > > > > > Want Damage Warriors. period or Ele's > > > Want Support? Druid > > > Want Condi Damage? Again Warrior, or Mesmer, or even Rev > > > > > > Necro excels only at AOE boon corrupt and that is VERY situational and those situations are only PVP and WvW and not even in every situation I would be fine for them to nerf the AOE boon corrupt and give Necro more HARD condis of bleed, torment, etc that way you remove potency of them in WvW and PvP and give them back strength in PVE, just scepter auto attack 3rd in the AA chain is enough condi corrupt for PVE most of the time you HARDLY IF EVER need more then that > > > > If necro excels at any of those categories it becomes the best class period, because then there's no identity for the other classes to fulfill because it has such high baseline potential in all three without needing build investment thanks to shroud's innate defenses and the utility scourge brings. > > > > It's not meant to be an optimal condition damage dealer, either. It's meant to utilize conditions to control fights, like through weakness to negate incoming damage and fear and cripple to lock down and kite enemies. Again, this is a problem with the encounters in "high end" PvE; they're all extremely narrow-scoped, and to be honest, as soon as necro advances in something over another class, someone else gets thrown out of the meta. Even if everyone did exactly the same damage, people would kick because one class would be more reliable in dealing its damage at more levels of skill or have slightly higher self-sustain. > > > > Necro can't be balanced with the trinity system in mind because GW2 as a whole wasn't ever intended to have the trinity system and "high end" PvE in mind from a class perspective. Adjusting the classes will not fix PvE because the issues in PvE are bigger than numbers tweaks to professions. > > > > And if you nerf necro's corruption ability, then many professions also need to be nerfed in their boon applications, especially Firebrand. I agree with this, but it's impossible to do in a fair way because of Concentration and how overpowered boons are. So then ANet needs to nerf a lot of boons and baseline damage coefficients and condition application because without nerfs to direct power everyone will just one-shot one another once boons are nerfed out of the meta. And then necro ends up needing to get nerfed because it outdamages everything, can tank super well thanks to its high baseline levels of sustain, and can shut down the limited number of resistance floating around. So then you're back at square 1 because something else will out-DPS it. > > > > While I'd love to see the above happen because the PvP modes aren't that fun anymore when everyone has massively-inflated stats and necros thus basically control the game, anything short of a full-on game-wide rework of all professions breaks virtually everything. > > > > Much easier to make some better encounters that the necro is good into, and maybe buff its corruption in PvE-only so it means even a small fraction of what it does in the PvP modes. > > > > Because if it mattered as much as it does in the PvP modes, we'd see most groups probably running 2 FB 8 scourge. > > your thing about Epi being OP it had to be OP because how necro applies its damage is increasing DPS over time to a SINGLE TARGET most of tis AOES are boon corrupt not condi applying that is why Epi was needed to be somewhat OP so that you could spread at least to a degree that single target damage to multiple enemies or Necro would need to have THE BEST single target damage amongst all classes to balance out their poor AoE damage when you compare say a warrior able to do their high power damage without any build up to multiple mobs, and you keep saying necro has high sustain, it does not have that much sustain because it does not give that many boons to itself or allies, the only REALLY notable thing is death shroud which that can EASILY be burned out of quit quickly that is the only thing truly "sustain" about necros unless you speck into low damage but high sustain with the trait that turns 10% of condi damage into heals (can't think of the name off the top of my head" and I NEVER SAID i wanted necro TO BE THE BE ALL END ALL DAMAGE and it should out damage every class, no i want it to be on par if not SLIGHTLY BETTER due to its long ramp up time to get its damage going and that unless it is kept up upon that damage will be lost unlike power builds. again that is where Epi was great because it offered a damage boost for co-ordination and only on certain encounters where there was adds to bounce them to the boss. to bring 2 necros or more and using that co-ordination should be rewarded so really in PVE no EPI was not OP because it was severly needed since necro has no good AoE condition application other then Epi but now Epi is pretty much near worthless and your part about making End game PVE feel more like PVP that would be bad because people playing PVE want to play PVE they don't want to play PVE but feel like they are playing PVP or else they would just play PVP Me: I hate to do this, but epi was op in raids, and that is why it got nerfed. Necromancers were doing over 40k when stacked while using epi. Having to stack necros is bad for the game, and needs changed. The way abilities works do need to change in some ways so that single necro could have more dps when unstacked, or more limitations on how much you can stack. > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > @"Xxnecroxx.4039" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > Fun is subjective .. there is no way Anet can deliver directly to you what you ask because you have associated fun with balance when their isn't any correlation at all. Despite those nerfs, lots of people still have fun. It's a weak argument when people start linking balance to 'fun'. It's so meaningless and unmeasurable. > > > > > > Doesn't change what I said. Sounds like you choose the wrong class to play; if your criteria links 'balanced' to what is 'fun', better find a different class. > > > > would you find your main class that you have put thousands of hours into and thousands of gold and grinding to make look amazing, would you have fun with it if one balance patch they gutted them to be terrible, their damage numbers are poo, your character is no longer accepted in high end end game content, you have nothing special about your class anymore, no special boons to share and the kind of job that you can do it can easily be out done by other classes in every way (this is PVE BTW) > > I don't think you understand that for PvP players, necro is literally the source of this problem for *multiple* professions where the entire game revolves around how well necro performs because it's actually that powerful of a class. > > We understand fully. It's just your complaint isn't correct by asking for buffs to necro. The class is arguably the strongest or one of the strongest in the game in macro power based on how it counters things and how it needs to be played around. Its entire purpose is to maintain dominance through battlefield control and denial of power to enemies and converting that into their offense. Just none of these strengths apply in PvE because ANet has yet to make an encounter that's anything more than number-crunching some DPS and makes half their big bad boss encounters downright immune to most of the power necro brings. > > You're asking to change what necromancer is intended to do, rather than suggesting ways to make what it does work better in PvE. That's the issue. Do you think it would make sense for someone to request in the thief subsection that the class needs more invulnerability effects and reduced incoming damage so that it can be an effective tank/damage sponge? No. If people wanted to suggest ways for thief to tank, it'd be through aggro maintenance tools and ways to involve dodging through the incoming damage rather than necessarily depending on a healer or zero-tell stun which some bosses inflict. That's basically what you're asking for on necro right now, and it makes little sense. > > Nowhere in the class is maximum damage via conditions mentioned, and Epi spam was boring gameplay that a lot of necromancer players criticized because they wanted to actually play their class rather than simulate the terminal hacking part of Crucible of Eternity where people just type 3 2 1 and press F to advance. Me: Necro basically cannot get buffed because of pvp, but I think that is false, because if the values were split, then you wouldn't have overly strong abilities no? I mean why cant you have conditions and bursts higher in pve only? Also some of the specs have builds that you literally have to build into that, such as for reaper builds into power or scourge builds into condition. Currently the way reaper is built, you got to decide if to go full power or sustain, so why not increase the reward for going full glass to be a little stronger in pve only and make it so that its separate? Super high burst in pvp is bad yeah I know, because you end up with 1 shot builds, but if you have no dmg in pve, your value as a class goes down. Also, Reaper is a very selfish elite spec that could benefit being stronger in pve only, and scourge could benefit being the condi only build. It doesn't have to be built into all 3, you could improve the support parts, I mean look at scourge taking vampiric for draining hp on enemies to give to the team, or blood. If we make it so that they are strong enough alone, and we don't take them, that our support is actually weak, then we have something. Also some classes have unfair advantage, such as chronomancers, who can spread buffs fairly easy even without much investment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 > @"Axl.8924" said: > Me: > > Necro basically cannot get buffed because of pvp, but I think that is false, because if the values were split, then you wouldn't have overly strong abilities no? > > I mean why cant you have conditions and bursts higher in pve only? > Unfortunately, there is a limit to number splits efficacity. Professions are balanced around the potential that their abilities can reach which is why necro's life leeching effects tend to have low value. In case of PvE conditions, the issue is that the potential of boon corruption and condition manipulation exist but struggle to find a balanced way to be exploited in the gamemode. If Anet were to balance "numbers" in such a way that the necromancer reach the average DPS mark for PvE condition damage it will either meant giving up to both of those profession's defining tools or hanging a damocles sword above the necromancer's head awaiting that those 2 tools become "viable" to fall with a huge hard nerf. Ideally, you don't want that. > > Also some of the specs have builds that you literally have to build into that, such as for reaper builds into power or scourge builds into condition. Currently the way reaper is built, you got to decide if to go full power or sustain, so why not increase the reward for going full glass to be a little stronger in pve only and make it so that its separate? > Because whether we like it or not the necromancer's defense is inbuilt while other profession's defense isn't. Which mean that while a necromancer will always have defense available to him, other profession can perfectly run "naked" and it's a given that someone that forsake all defense should be able to be better on offense than someone that still retain defense along it's offense. The necromancer's special mechanism is the culprit like I said above in an answer to Saloja. > Super high burst in pvp is bad yeah I know, because you end up with 1 shot builds, but if you have no dmg in pve, your value as a class goes down. Also, Reaper is a very selfish elite spec that could benefit being stronger in pve only, and scourge could benefit being the condi only build. It doesn't have to be built into all 3, you could improve the support parts, I mean look at scourge taking vampiric for draining hp on enemies to give to the team, or blood. If we make it so that they are strong enough alone, and we don't take them, that our support is actually weak, then we have something. > But objectively, the scourge's support stand strong in it's niche. The fact that this niche doesn't satisfy the need of the top raid group don't mean that the scourge support is bad, just that it's not adapted to be part of the most efficient team comp. The same goes for reaper, with the fact that it does have inbuilt defense make it naturally sturdier than other professions and thus make it "easier to play", ANet just can't legitimately give it "moar damage" than other professions nor can it objectively give him as much because the profession have inate defense making it naturally more resilient than other profession building glassy and thus more forgiving to use in a fight. The necromancer's main issue is and have always been it's defensive system. It is inbuilt and force the profession into a "generalist" while PvE look for "specialist". You can't and shouldn't expect a "generalist" to reach the same amount of efficiency than a "specialist". Both reaper and scourge are objectively very good generalists as they stand but being very good generalist doesn't mean that they can or should stand shoulder to shoulder with average specialists. Scourge that broke free from the shroud could have become a specialist but ANet choose to still push everything at the same time on the special mechanism which is the reason it failed (Even if in it's "player ralying niche" he is a true specialist). The only path for the necromancer to become a part of the "meta" is an e-spec that would break free from the all encompassing necromancer's special mechanism. In other world, an e-spec that move defense out of the "shroud/shroud skill" toward either the e-spec weapon skills or the e-spec utility skills. In the scourge's case, to make it a true specialist ANet should have removed a good part of the "offense" out of the shroud skills (F skills) which mean no F1 proc on F skills use (which would have allowed them to retain their original strong support)... The shade mechanism would probably had had to be totally different due to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > Me: > > > > Necro basically cannot get buffed because of pvp, but I think that is false, because if the values were split, then you wouldn't have overly strong abilities no? > > > > I mean why cant you have conditions and bursts higher in pve only? > > > > Unfortunately, there is a limit to number splits efficacity. Professions are balanced around the potential that their abilities can reach which is why necro's life leeching effects tend to have low value. In case of PvE conditions, the issue is that the potential of boon corruption and condition manipulation exist but struggle to find a balanced way to be exploited in the gamemode. If Anet were to balance "numbers" in such a way that the necromancer reach the average DPS mark for PvE condition damage it will either meant giving up to both of those profession's defining tools or hanging a damocles sword above the necromancer's head awaiting that those 2 tools become "viable" to fall with a huge hard nerf. Ideally, you don't want that. > > > > > > Also some of the specs have builds that you literally have to build into that, such as for reaper builds into power or scourge builds into condition. Currently the way reaper is built, you got to decide if to go full power or sustain, so why not increase the reward for going full glass to be a little stronger in pve only and make it so that its separate? > > > > Because whether we like it or not the necromancer's defense is inbuilt while other profession's defense isn't. Which mean that while a necromancer will always have defense available to him, other profession can perfectly run "naked" and it's a given that someone that forsake all defense should be able to be better on offense than someone that still retain defense along it's offense. > > The necromancer's special mechanism is the culprit like I said above in an answer to Saloja. > > > Super high burst in pvp is bad yeah I know, because you end up with 1 shot builds, but if you have no dmg in pve, your value as a class goes down. Also, Reaper is a very selfish elite spec that could benefit being stronger in pve only, and scourge could benefit being the condi only build. It doesn't have to be built into all 3, you could improve the support parts, I mean look at scourge taking vampiric for draining hp on enemies to give to the team, or blood. If we make it so that they are strong enough alone, and we don't take them, that our support is actually weak, then we have something. > > > > But objectively, the scourge's support stand strong in it's niche. The fact that this niche doesn't satisfy the need of the top raid group don't mean that the scourge support is bad, just that it's not adapted to be part of the most efficient team comp. The same goes for reaper, with the fact that it does have inbuilt defense make it naturally sturdier than other professions and thus make it "easier to play", ANet just can't legitimately give it "moar damage" than other professions nor can it objectively give him as much because the profession have inate defense making it naturally more resilient than other profession building glassy and thus more forgiving to use in a fight. > > > The necromancer's main issue is and have always been it's defensive system. It is inbuilt and force the profession into a "generalist" while PvE look for "specialist". You can't and shouldn't expect a "generalist" to reach the same amount of efficiency than a "specialist". Both reaper and scourge are objectively very good generalists as they stand but being very good generalist doesn't mean that they can or should stand shoulder to shoulder with average specialists. Scourge that broke free from the shroud could have become a specialist but ANet choose to still push everything at the same time on the special mechanism which is the reason it failed (Even if in it's "player ralying niche" he is a true specialist). > > The only path for the necromancer to become a part of the "meta" is an e-spec that would break free from the all encompassing necromancer's special mechanism. In other world, an e-spec that move defense out of the "shroud/shroud skill" toward either the e-spec weapon skills or the e-spec utility skills. In the scourge's case, to make it a true specialist ANet should have removed a good part of the "offense" out of the shroud skills (F skills) which mean no F1 proc on F skills use (which would have allowed them to retain their original strong support)... The shade mechanism would probably had had to be totally different due to that. But the problem is only in shroud mode as reaper, and generally speaking it doesnt even work the same in pve. The shroud actually gets blown up very fast between dmg that lowers your shroud efficiency AND the cost of abilities. Given that shroud makes some jealous, it seems fair that since shroud was lowered in duration and efficiency to keep up, that in that time they do burst? In pve yeah they are tanky and all, but we are super slow on reaper. Its kinda expeected to be somewhat tanky since we are super slow as well. Also the same issues regarding massive burst to necro applies to everyone else, which is why people cry about soulbeast and mirage doing such massive dmg, or the sustain. Given that there is no holy trinity, but its very unbalanced to have low dmg numbers for pve just because of pvp. They have to find a way to keep the values low for everyone in pvp while keeping dmg fair in pve. I understand necros have shroud and boon corrupt, but those boon corrupts with how limited they are, are literally holding back necro. In raid raidar says scourge are viable as buffers, but what about reapers? their dmg is way behind everyone. The defense argument doesnt hold as much water in pve as it does in pvp, because in pvp, having a long duration shroud means you can live longer than anyone else and burst, that is: So long as the said duration of survival isnt so extreme that you are able to have god tier dps and sustain, which i dont think necros have anymore in reaper shroud, especially since the life force goes down fairly fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 @Axl.8924 You don't understand my points. You are focusing on the efficiency of the tools while I point out that the necromancer can't trade those tools for damage or anything else. What prevent the necromancer from being a specialist and thus compete against the other specialists is that it's special mechanism cannot be traded for something more specialized. If there is no trade off for the necromancer and he can stay a generalist, then it's unfair for other professions that trade everything in order to specialize to see the necromancer perform at the same level as them. As long as someone don't understand that, he won't understand the necromancer's balance. Due to it's special mechanism the necromancer is just inately unable to be a specialist and thus unable to compete against true specialist that **player** look for when they create a group/raid. What is the proper trade off for this inate defense? Anet seemed to have put it at 10% below the other profession's average. Is it fair? is it unfair? Who know? If you think it's "unfair", what trade off would you think "fair"? What trade off would other profession think "fair"? It's a tricky "balance" to come by. That's why the best hope is to see an e-spec that break free from the all encompassing necromancer's mechanic. Because if the shroud is "specialized", then you have to do meaningfull choice that allow you to either go toward being a generalist or go all out as a specialist. However, neither core, nor reaper or scourge give you this possibility. Only when you'll have this possibility will you be able to become a specialist and fairly ask for an efficiency which is on par with other specialists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anchoku.8142 Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 There are a number of comments on Epidemic, here. Epi is an OP condi-cleave that does zero damage to the target and merely copies conditions to other enemies or to trash mobs. The reason it has not been nerfed more than it has is because condi stacks and condi cleanse in competitive game modes keeps this utility in line with other tactical utilities. It is actually very difficult to target a player with conditions and propagate them before they are cleared. However, its function in WvW is condi pressure, not dps. In PvE end-game, Epi is amazing until you consider any trash mobs wandering into a stacked group would be cleaved down, anyway. Epi is a powerful trash and add mob tool but that is partly due to a lack of cleave capability in the rest of core Necro. Without it, core Necro AoE is quite bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teratus.2859 Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 Tis fun for me although I run power Necros more than condi these days tbh.. Sceptor attack speed is pretty meh tbh.. which does make playing a condi Necro in PvE a little slow. My advice for that is to run a Dhuumfire Reaper and make a hybrid rather than a pure condi.. Significantly increases the speed on which you can burn things down.. HA! Puns :D Seriously though I much prefer Reaper over Scourge because of the Shroud and how much direct and burn damage it can output for a hybrid Necro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterman.1530 Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 I haven't played in months. Came into the forums to see if Necros had gotten...well...better. No, that's not true. Logged in and did the first mission in the latest Living Story chapter. Was so bored at the ridiculous mechanics (standing in the circles next to Aurene) that I went "Meh", finished the mission, and logged out. That was...the 10th or so. Seriously. The only class I enjoyed playing and it's total crap. As per usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xxnecroxx.4039 Posted January 21, 2019 Author Share Posted January 21, 2019 > @"misterman.1530" said: > I haven't played in months. Came into the forums to see if Necros had gotten...well...better. No, that's not true. Logged in and did the first mission in the latest Living Story chapter. Was so bored at the ridiculous mechanics (standing in the circles next to Aurene) that I went "Meh", finished the mission, and logged out. That was...the 10th or so. > > Seriously. The only class I enjoyed playing and it's total kitten. As per usual. im with you, if they EVER make condi necro actually viable again im gonna have ALOT of content to play :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > Me: > > > > > > Necro basically cannot get buffed because of pvp, but I think that is false, because if the values were split, then you wouldn't have overly strong abilities no? > > > > > > I mean why cant you have conditions and bursts higher in pve only? > > > > > > > Unfortunately, there is a limit to number splits efficacity. Professions are balanced around the potential that their abilities can reach which is why necro's life leeching effects tend to have low value. In case of PvE conditions, the issue is that the potential of boon corruption and condition manipulation exist but struggle to find a balanced way to be exploited in the gamemode. If Anet were to balance "numbers" in such a way that the necromancer reach the average DPS mark for PvE condition damage it will either meant giving up to both of those profession's defining tools or hanging a damocles sword above the necromancer's head awaiting that those 2 tools become "viable" to fall with a huge hard nerf. Ideally, you don't want that. > > > > > > > > > > Also some of the specs have builds that you literally have to build into that, such as for reaper builds into power or scourge builds into condition. Currently the way reaper is built, you got to decide if to go full power or sustain, so why not increase the reward for going full glass to be a little stronger in pve only and make it so that its separate? > > > > > > > Because whether we like it or not the necromancer's defense is inbuilt while other profession's defense isn't. Which mean that while a necromancer will always have defense available to him, other profession can perfectly run "naked" and it's a given that someone that forsake all defense should be able to be better on offense than someone that still retain defense along it's offense. > > > > The necromancer's special mechanism is the culprit like I said above in an answer to Saloja. > > > > > Super high burst in pvp is bad yeah I know, because you end up with 1 shot builds, but if you have no dmg in pve, your value as a class goes down. Also, Reaper is a very selfish elite spec that could benefit being stronger in pve only, and scourge could benefit being the condi only build. It doesn't have to be built into all 3, you could improve the support parts, I mean look at scourge taking vampiric for draining hp on enemies to give to the team, or blood. If we make it so that they are strong enough alone, and we don't take them, that our support is actually weak, then we have something. > > > > > > > But objectively, the scourge's support stand strong in it's niche. The fact that this niche doesn't satisfy the need of the top raid group don't mean that the scourge support is bad, just that it's not adapted to be part of the most efficient team comp. The same goes for reaper, with the fact that it does have inbuilt defense make it naturally sturdier than other professions and thus make it "easier to play", ANet just can't legitimately give it "moar damage" than other professions nor can it objectively give him as much because the profession have inate defense making it naturally more resilient than other profession building glassy and thus more forgiving to use in a fight. > > > > > > The necromancer's main issue is and have always been it's defensive system. It is inbuilt and force the profession into a "generalist" while PvE look for "specialist". You can't and shouldn't expect a "generalist" to reach the same amount of efficiency than a "specialist". Both reaper and scourge are objectively very good generalists as they stand but being very good generalist doesn't mean that they can or should stand shoulder to shoulder with average specialists. Scourge that broke free from the shroud could have become a specialist but ANet choose to still push everything at the same time on the special mechanism which is the reason it failed (Even if in it's "player ralying niche" he is a true specialist). > > > > The only path for the necromancer to become a part of the "meta" is an e-spec that would break free from the all encompassing necromancer's special mechanism. In other world, an e-spec that move defense out of the "shroud/shroud skill" toward either the e-spec weapon skills or the e-spec utility skills. In the scourge's case, to make it a true specialist ANet should have removed a good part of the "offense" out of the shroud skills (F skills) which mean no F1 proc on F skills use (which would have allowed them to retain their original strong support)... The shade mechanism would probably had had to be totally different due to that. > > But the problem is only in shroud mode as reaper, and generally speaking it doesnt even work the same in pve. The shroud actually gets blown up very fast between dmg that lowers your shroud efficiency AND the cost of abilities. Given that shroud makes some jealous, it seems fair that since shroud was lowered in duration and efficiency to keep up, that in that time they do burst? > > In pve yeah they are tanky and all, but we are super slow on reaper. Its kinda expeected to be somewhat tanky since we are super slow as well. > > Also the same issues regarding massive burst to necro applies to everyone else, which is why people cry about soulbeast and mirage doing such massive dmg, or the sustain. > > Given that there is no holy trinity, but its very unbalanced to have low dmg numbers for pve just because of pvp. They have to find a way to keep the values low for everyone in pvp while keeping dmg fair in pve. > > I understand necros have shroud and boon corrupt, but those boon corrupts with how limited they are, are literally holding back necro. In raid raidar says scourge are viable as buffers, but what about reapers? their dmg is way behind everyone. The defense argument doesnt hold as much water in pve as it does in pvp, because in pvp, having a long duration shroud means you can live longer than anyone else and burst, that is: So long as the said duration of survival isnt so extreme that you are able to have god tier dps and sustain, which i dont think necros have anymore in reaper shroud, especially since the life force goes down fairly fast. > > > I'm siding with @"Dadnir.5038" on this. The fact that Necromancer will always be able to have an innate defense that will never go away makes giving them more burst difficult. Sure that defense can be cut down due to other factors but it doesn't change the fact that it is always there, no matter what build you run. Shroud is an interesting and creative mechanic but in hindsight, not a good idea. It should have been optional, something you gained with taking a trait. That likely would have made it possible for Necromancer to specialize in the same fashion that others do. The issue isn't the length of Shroud but the act of having it. Simply put, Necromancer isn't capable of trading more damage for lower defense like everyone else and this will always hobble damage potential. The speed at which you can blow through that doesn't change that Necromancer has that capability. A Necromancer close to death can suddenly go into Shroud and it has a second chance and then if it gets downed has a third chance in downed state. Most folks don't get that third chance. Sure the second chance that Shroud provides can be short but that short period can be all it takes in some instances. And yes, some professions have an unfair edge, such as Soulbeast and Mirage but that isn't a reason for Necromancer to be given something. It means that Soulbeast and Mirage need to be brought in line. I see a lot of counter-arguments about how strong this and that is and therefore Necromancer needs X and Y and that's not how this works. Game balance isn't about making everyone as bad as the worst offender. It's about bringing the worst offenders in line. Yes, ANet isn't always doing the best job at this. That doesn't change the state of what game balance is though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 The OP's last three threads on the same topic were better: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/48703/can-we-show-necromancers-some-love https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/54838/so-how-long-will-i-not-be-able-to-play-my-main-in-gw2 https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60059/been-6-months-and-still-waiting-for-some-decent-condi-reaper-necro-buffs Can't say he wasn't warned. This thread has some good discussion in it once you get past the rehash. I completely agree with the problem that Necro has that limits it with a 2nd health bar. Scourge moves away from that fortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anchoku.8142 Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > The OP's last three threads on the same topic were better: > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/48703/can-we-show-necromancers-some-love > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/54838/so-how-long-will-i-not-be-able-to-play-my-main-in-gw2 > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60059/been-6-months-and-still-waiting-for-some-decent-condi-reaper-necro-buffs > > Can't say he wasn't warned. This thread has some good discussion in it once you get past the rehash. I completely agree with the problem that Necro has that limits it with a 2nd health bar. Scourge moves away from that fortunately. We all have practice at subverting hyperbole into a more productive discussion. @"Dace.8173" I think a core issue with Necro is its selfishness. Low group buff capability is holding it back more than dps and imbalances the profession between PvP and PvE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 > @"Anchoku.8142" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > The OP's last three threads on the same topic were better: > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/48703/can-we-show-necromancers-some-love > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/54838/so-how-long-will-i-not-be-able-to-play-my-main-in-gw2 > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60059/been-6-months-and-still-waiting-for-some-decent-condi-reaper-necro-buffs > > > > Can't say he wasn't warned. This thread has some good discussion in it once you get past the rehash. I completely agree with the problem that Necro has that limits it with a 2nd health bar. Scourge moves away from that fortunately. > > We all have practice at subverting hyperbole into a more productive discussion. > > @"Dace.8173" > I think a core issue with Necro is its selfishness. Low group buff capability is holding it back more than dps and imbalances the profession between PvP and PvE. The point is that those discussions already happened ... three times. Somehow the OP thinks the result will be different. Frankly, i don't understand why we don't just necro the old threads. It's already covered. I have some confidence that as Anet rolls out this new boon sharing scheme, the class will be less selfish. On the flip side, I don't think that will address the OP's problems with it, nor will it address Necro not being meta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Anchoku.8142" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > The OP's last three threads on the same topic were better: > > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/48703/can-we-show-necromancers-some-love > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/54838/so-how-long-will-i-not-be-able-to-play-my-main-in-gw2 > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60059/been-6-months-and-still-waiting-for-some-decent-condi-reaper-necro-buffs > > > > > > Can't say he wasn't warned. This thread has some good discussion in it once you get past the rehash. I completely agree with the problem that Necro has that limits it with a 2nd health bar. Scourge moves away from that fortunately. > > > > We all have practice at subverting hyperbole into a more productive discussion. > > > > @"Dace.8173" > > I think a core issue with Necro is its selfishness. Low group buff capability is holding it back more than dps and imbalances the profession between PvP and PvE. > > The point is that those discussions already happened ... three times. Somehow the OP thinks the result will be different. Frankly, i don't understand why we don't just necro the old threads. It's already covered. > > I have some confidence that as Anet rolls out this new boon sharing scheme, the class will be less selfish. On the flip side, I don't think that will address the OP's problems with it, nor will it address Necro not being meta. The point is: We may not like it, but when it comes to viability, scourge and reaper can raid. Scourge is viable as support, so not much more can be said about that. It has been argued over and over, but raidar shows a graph. I am not arguing raids cannot be done, im just hoping for quality of life improvements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Anchoku.8142" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > The OP's last three threads on the same topic were better: > > > > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/48703/can-we-show-necromancers-some-love > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/54838/so-how-long-will-i-not-be-able-to-play-my-main-in-gw2 > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60059/been-6-months-and-still-waiting-for-some-decent-condi-reaper-necro-buffs > > > > > > > > Can't say he wasn't warned. This thread has some good discussion in it once you get past the rehash. I completely agree with the problem that Necro has that limits it with a 2nd health bar. Scourge moves away from that fortunately. > > > > > > We all have practice at subverting hyperbole into a more productive discussion. > > > > > > @"Dace.8173" > > > I think a core issue with Necro is its selfishness. Low group buff capability is holding it back more than dps and imbalances the profession between PvP and PvE. > > > > The point is that those discussions already happened ... three times. Somehow the OP thinks the result will be different. Frankly, i don't understand why we don't just necro the old threads. It's already covered. > > > > I have some confidence that as Anet rolls out this new boon sharing scheme, the class will be less selfish. On the flip side, I don't think that will address the OP's problems with it, nor will it address Necro not being meta. > > The point is: We may not like it, but when it comes to viability, scourge and reaper can raid. > > Scourge is viable as support, so not much more can be said about that. It has been argued over and over, but raidar shows a graph. > > > I am not arguing raids cannot be done, im just hoping for quality of life improvements. > Certainly, without a good start at the beginning, the thread can ebb and flow in any direction a single person chooses. So common in 'I QUIT' threads like this one. Honestly, I think QoL improvements have little place in threads complaining about balance; fundamentally, they aren't the same kinds of change. QoL changes are a little elusive; it's not like it's hard to execute skills and gain the effects of them in this game. QoL have a minor impact in most cases. What I think is important is that IF there is a theme with all the threads from the OP, it's that no one should be married to anything they like if they desire performance above all. If you like condi necro, then play it and enjoy it as it is. If you want performance at the highest levels of whatever style of play you want, that player better join the FOTM club. Now we have four threads that have that message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now