Mysticjedi.6053 Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 All and all, I have no problem with people selling runs. I think people buy them and participate in them at their own risk. Having a policy that makes this clear, makes perfect sense. With that said, I do believe sellers should have their own tab in the lfg, especially in the case of raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 This is why they need to nerf raids so they can add auto join so anyone can do it and beat it. It's just really bad the way it is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchonWing.9480 Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 Dang 2019 and people are still going off on this. I bet 80% of complainers are just upset they can't do it themselves, lol. Envy is a sad thing. Maybe if one would put effort into actually playing the game this would be a non issue instead of blaming random people for misfortune. It's up there with people thinking you need gem store for anything and nobody ever farms any gold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauried.5608 Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 I have no view about selling runs , but the issue for Anet is how to stop it if its not allowed. Any player can send gold to any other player, and no reason is required for doing so. It would seem to be to be impossible for Anet to enforce a ban on the run selling even if they wanted too. As for the issue with multi boxing, are 2 players who live in the same house and have an account each , and are sitting right next to each other so they can see both screens and are playing co operateavily legally play. This would be no differant to one player multi boxing, as the outcome is the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illconceived Was Na.9781 Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > Just stop with the tippy toeing around what was said, and please don't try to deny you know exactly what was said. I honestly can't make out what your point is. I'm not skirting around any language. I've been trying to help you understand that what they've actually said and done. > The fact that ANET come out, out of the blue at a time when other factors in the game are changing in an effort to claw revenue in and jump on the "pay for spots/runs are bad RMT and account fraud areas, It's not "out of the blue." It's the new year; they updated **all** their policies, which mostly didn't change what happens with us; some of it is seems to be rephrased to reduce the amount of internet-lawyering going on, but mostly I think they are probably updating to conform to expected changes in regulations etc. > please be good and get your gold legit You realize they have said this constantly and consistently since they've been a gaming company. This isn't a new policy. > ANET made the statement there was a large proportion of RMT/ ACCOUNT FRAUD activity around the buying /selling of spot/runs They said: "after digging into the origins of the funds involved in large transfers, we learned that almost all of them were directly involved in some form of Fraud and/or RMT. Obviously, Fraud is disallowed, and Real Money Trading (RMT) is absolutely against the rules." You're interpreting that as "a large proportion of all run purchases," when it's only "large transfers of wealth." There's really no reason to imagine that this is anything other than a niche situation. ANet used the term "transfers of wealth" rather than "trading of gold," which means we're talking amounts exceeding 500 gold per week. And we know from past statements that only a tiny fraction of exchanges exceed that amount. Given that most individual raid clears are going at significantly less, we're talking about people who are buying a ton of stuff at once. That is almost certainly a tiny fraction of the 'business' of the raid selling industry. > hence why they choose to tolerate an activity that allows its product to be open to abuse. You realize that just the existence of high-value rewards in the game is what leads to RMT. Raid selling is an example of one of the things that leads to rewards, but there are many, many others. Are you saying that having legendaries sold on the TP or new permanent contracts "allows the product to be open to abuse?" > If they took one iota of care for the players then they would simply come out and ban the sale/purchase of spots/runs in an effort to close the gates on such nefarious activities which they say make up a large proportion of them. Again, that's not what they said. They referred specifically to "large transfers," which doesn't apply to the typical raid run. > The LFG is for promoting the formation of groups.. absolutely - it is not to be used to advertise and promote the sale of anything.. except the sale of spots and runs that ANET do not support. When the LFG actively shows the prices you gotta pay etc .. that is not about just forming a group it is advertising the sale of the product, the party, the spot, the run whatever you want to call it.. Again, no, it's still formation of the group. In this case, instead of asking for full zerk or 150 LI, they are asking for 100 gold. > I would have more respect if ANET simply came out and said.. we now support the buying/selling of runs but only if paid for through our internal processes. That way ANET control who, what, where and how. That is, in fact, what they said: they support the buying & selling of runs. They don't support account sharing to get chieves. They don't support RMT in any form. > I have nothing against ANET making money, but at least be upfront about the reasoning's behind why they continue to tolerate an activity that goes against principle and is considered to be a very large issue proportionally within the activity and puts players accounts at risk. I'm unclear why you think that people converting gold to gems for the express purpose of buying raid runs amounts to a significant portion of their gem sales. There's absolutely no evidence of that. What evidence we do have suggests that people spend on MountFits, BL Keys, world transfers by guilds, and all sorts of other gem shop items. I think you're also drastically underestimating the amount of wealth held by veterans of all sorts, even the most casual of players. Folks that want to come up with enough gold to see what raids are like aren't going to have that much trouble. **** tl;dr on the whole, ANet's simply restated, in a single location, their existing policy the only big change is making explicit that there is a burden on the seller to be careful of the biggest buyers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 > @"Jeknar.6184" said: > > @"Rysdude.3824" said: > > > @"Jeknar.6184" said: > > > > @"Zappax.4685" said: > > > > If its accepted by anet, then at least make its own subsection in the LFG. Lot of us are sick and tired of these guys. My block list is full and I still cant see the actual runs among the loads of sellers. > > > > > > Oh cmon... You don't like looking at your LFG and only seeing this? > > > > > >  > > > > > > > What's the big deal? Just scroll down > > There was nothing past that... :'( And you think ban on selling would change that last point? It would just have made LFG at that one time empty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > Just stop with the tippy toeing around what was said, and please don't try to deny you know exactly what was said. > I honestly can't make out what your point is. I'm not skirting around any language. I've been trying to help you understand that what they've actually said and done. > > > The fact that ANET come out, out of the blue at a time when other factors in the game are changing in an effort to claw revenue in and jump on the "pay for spots/runs are bad RMT and account fraud areas, > It's not "out of the blue." It's the new year; they updated **all** their policies, which mostly didn't change what happens with us; some of it is seems to be rephrased to reduce the amount of internet-lawyering going on, but mostly I think they are probably updating to conform to expected changes in regulations etc. > > > please be good and get your gold legit > You realize they have said this constantly and consistently since they've been a gaming company. This isn't a new policy. > > > ANET made the statement there was a large proportion of RMT/ ACCOUNT FRAUD activity around the buying /selling of spot/runs > They said: > "after digging into the origins of the funds involved in large transfers, we learned that almost all of them were directly involved in some form of Fraud and/or RMT. Obviously, Fraud is disallowed, and Real Money Trading (RMT) is absolutely against the rules." > > You're interpreting that as "a large proportion of all run purchases," when it's only "large transfers of wealth." There's really no reason to imagine that this is anything other than a niche situation. ANet used the term "transfers of wealth" rather than "trading of gold," which means we're talking amounts exceeding 500 gold per week. And we know from past statements that only a tiny fraction of exchanges exceed that amount. > > Given that most individual raid clears are going at significantly less, we're talking about people who are buying a ton of stuff at once. That is almost certainly a tiny fraction of the 'business' of the raid selling industry. > > > > hence why they choose to tolerate an activity that allows its product to be open to abuse. > You realize that just the existence of high-value rewards in the game is what leads to RMT. Raid selling is an example of one of the things that leads to rewards, but there are many, many others. Are you saying that having legendaries sold on the TP or new permanent contracts "allows the product to be open to abuse?" > > > > If they took one iota of care for the players then they would simply come out and ban the sale/purchase of spots/runs in an effort to close the gates on such nefarious activities which they say make up a large proportion of them. > Again, that's not what they said. They referred specifically to "large transfers," which doesn't apply to the typical raid run. > > > The LFG is for promoting the formation of groups.. absolutely - it is not to be used to advertise and promote the sale of anything.. except the sale of spots and runs that ANET do not support. When the LFG actively shows the prices you gotta pay etc .. that is not about just forming a group it is advertising the sale of the product, the party, the spot, the run whatever you want to call it.. > Again, no, it's still formation of the group. In this case, instead of asking for full zerk or 150 LI, they are asking for 100 gold. > > > > I would have more respect if ANET simply came out and said.. we now support the buying/selling of runs but only if paid for through our internal processes. That way ANET control who, what, where and how. > That is, in fact, what they said: they support the buying & selling of runs. They don't support account sharing to get chieves. They don't support RMT in any form. > > > I have nothing against ANET making money, but at least be upfront about the reasoning's behind why they continue to tolerate an activity that goes against principle and is considered to be a very large issue proportionally within the activity and puts players accounts at risk. > I'm unclear why you think that people converting gold to gems for the express purpose of buying raid runs amounts to a significant portion of their gem sales. There's absolutely no evidence of that. > > What evidence we do have suggests that people spend on MountFits, BL Keys, world transfers by guilds, and all sorts of other gem shop items. > > I think you're also drastically underestimating the amount of wealth held by veterans of all sorts, even the most casual of players. Folks that want to come up with enough gold to see what raids are like aren't going to have that much trouble. > > > **** > tl;dr on the whole, ANet's simply restated, in a single location, their existing policy > the only big change is making explicit that there is a burden on the seller to be careful of the biggest buyers > > Nice cherry picking there.. and misinterpreting what was actually being said, but then I expected little else tbh. Like I said it is not about making significant income through this activity channel it is tolerated because it can generate income large or small, even though ANET know and have said there is a very definite correlation between the activity and nefarious activities like RMT and account fraud. Any company genuinely concerned at the how such activities can impact negatively on their product and their customers would take actions not just to stop the bad stuff, but to alter the landscape in which it is happening. But instead they merely tolerate it and say players do so at their own risk with no support to be offered. It is a very inconsistent stance on their LFG abuse policy.. Using your notion I could form a group for selling almost anything in the game not just spots and runs... like I said tippy toe all you like, and try to downplay the very real issues and the complaints of players who disagree with your use of cherry picking words in defence once more of ANETS use of greyness. 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kharmin.7683 Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > I think you're also drastically underestimating the amount of wealth held by veterans of all sorts, even the most casual of players. Folks that want to come up with enough gold to see what raids are like aren't going to have that much trouble. Haven't been around since launch, but have been longer than five years so I think that might qualify me as a veteran. Also, I am probably one of the most casual of players out there. I hover around 900g constantly, so for me if I wanted to purchase a raid run, it wouldn't be problematic for me. The others in my circle haven't been on GW2 for as long (3 years, some less) and they are holding anywhere from 150-350g. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeknar.6184 Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Jeknar.6184" said: > > > @"Rysdude.3824" said: > > > > @"Jeknar.6184" said: > > > > > @"Zappax.4685" said: > > > > > If its accepted by anet, then at least make its own subsection in the LFG. Lot of us are sick and tired of these guys. My block list is full and I still cant see the actual runs among the loads of sellers. > > > > > > > > Oh cmon... You don't like looking at your LFG and only seeing this? > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > What's the big deal? Just scroll down > > > > There was nothing past that... :'( > And you think ban on selling would change that last point? It would just have made LFG at that one time empty. > Please quote where I said I care about banning them or not... I'm pretty sure I just made a joke on a guy that complained that he couldn't see anything on LFG because of all the sellers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeknar.6184 Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 > @"kharmin.7683" said: > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > I think you're also drastically underestimating the amount of wealth held by veterans of all sorts, even the most casual of players. Folks that want to come up with enough gold to see what raids are like aren't going to have that much trouble. > > Haven't been around since launch, but have been longer than five years so I think that might qualify me as a veteran. Also, I am probably one of the most casual of players out there. I hover around 900g constantly, so for me if I wanted to purchase a raid run, it wouldn't be problematic for me. The others in my circle haven't been on GW2 for as long (3 years, some less) and they are holding anywhere from 150-350g. > > Have you even bothered to check the prices on those runs tho? Other day I was so annoyed that LFG was always empty that I thought about buying a run from KC to Xera just to finish the first part of Experimental Armor for my alt account... The run would cost me 320g for 2.5 bosses (Can't really count Twisted Castle as a boss can we?) and it wouldn't even have Escort included. If the prices for the rest of the bosses are about the same, people are problably paying Thousands of gold for those runs in total... It's definetely not casual territory... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blocki.4931 Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > Just stop with the tippy toeing around what was said, and please don't try to deny you know exactly what was said. > > I honestly can't make out what your point is. I'm not skirting around any language. I've been trying to help you understand that what they've actually said and done. > > > > > The fact that ANET come out, out of the blue at a time when other factors in the game are changing in an effort to claw revenue in and jump on the "pay for spots/runs are bad RMT and account fraud areas, > > It's not "out of the blue." It's the new year; they updated **all** their policies, which mostly didn't change what happens with us; some of it is seems to be rephrased to reduce the amount of internet-lawyering going on, but mostly I think they are probably updating to conform to expected changes in regulations etc. > > > > > please be good and get your gold legit > > You realize they have said this constantly and consistently since they've been a gaming company. This isn't a new policy. > > > > > ANET made the statement there was a large proportion of RMT/ ACCOUNT FRAUD activity around the buying /selling of spot/runs > > They said: > > "after digging into the origins of the funds involved in large transfers, we learned that almost all of them were directly involved in some form of Fraud and/or RMT. Obviously, Fraud is disallowed, and Real Money Trading (RMT) is absolutely against the rules." > > > > You're interpreting that as "a large proportion of all run purchases," when it's only "large transfers of wealth." There's really no reason to imagine that this is anything other than a niche situation. ANet used the term "transfers of wealth" rather than "trading of gold," which means we're talking amounts exceeding 500 gold per week. And we know from past statements that only a tiny fraction of exchanges exceed that amount. > > > > Given that most individual raid clears are going at significantly less, we're talking about people who are buying a ton of stuff at once. That is almost certainly a tiny fraction of the 'business' of the raid selling industry. > > > > > > > hence why they choose to tolerate an activity that allows its product to be open to abuse. > > You realize that just the existence of high-value rewards in the game is what leads to RMT. Raid selling is an example of one of the things that leads to rewards, but there are many, many others. Are you saying that having legendaries sold on the TP or new permanent contracts "allows the product to be open to abuse?" > > > > > > > If they took one iota of care for the players then they would simply come out and ban the sale/purchase of spots/runs in an effort to close the gates on such nefarious activities which they say make up a large proportion of them. > > Again, that's not what they said. They referred specifically to "large transfers," which doesn't apply to the typical raid run. > > > > > The LFG is for promoting the formation of groups.. absolutely - it is not to be used to advertise and promote the sale of anything.. except the sale of spots and runs that ANET do not support. When the LFG actively shows the prices you gotta pay etc .. that is not about just forming a group it is advertising the sale of the product, the party, the spot, the run whatever you want to call it.. > > Again, no, it's still formation of the group. In this case, instead of asking for full zerk or 150 LI, they are asking for 100 gold. > > > > > > > I would have more respect if ANET simply came out and said.. we now support the buying/selling of runs but only if paid for through our internal processes. That way ANET control who, what, where and how. > > That is, in fact, what they said: they support the buying & selling of runs. They don't support account sharing to get chieves. They don't support RMT in any form. > > > > > I have nothing against ANET making money, but at least be upfront about the reasoning's behind why they continue to tolerate an activity that goes against principle and is considered to be a very large issue proportionally within the activity and puts players accounts at risk. > > I'm unclear why you think that people converting gold to gems for the express purpose of buying raid runs amounts to a significant portion of their gem sales. There's absolutely no evidence of that. > > > > What evidence we do have suggests that people spend on MountFits, BL Keys, world transfers by guilds, and all sorts of other gem shop items. > > > > I think you're also drastically underestimating the amount of wealth held by veterans of all sorts, even the most casual of players. Folks that want to come up with enough gold to see what raids are like aren't going to have that much trouble. > > > > > > **** > > tl;dr on the whole, ANet's simply restated, in a single location, their existing policy > > the only big change is making explicit that there is a burden on the seller to be careful of the biggest buyers > > > > > Nice cherry picking there.. and misinterpreting what was actually being said, but then I expected little else tbh. > Like I said it is not about making significant income through this activity channel it is tolerated because it can generate income large or small, even though ANET know and have said there is a very definite correlation between the activity and nefarious activities like RMT and account fraud. > Any company genuinely concerned at the how such activities can impact negatively on their product and their customers would take actions not just to stop the bad stuff, but to alter the landscape in which it is happening. But instead they merely tolerate it and say players do so at their own risk with no support to be offered. It is a very inconsistent stance on their LFG abuse policy.. > Using your notion I could form a group for selling almost anything in the game not just spots and runs... like I said tippy toe all you like, and try to downplay the very real issues and the complaints of players who disagree with your use of cherry picking words in defence once more of ANETS use of greyness. Why are you condemning people who use their real money to exchange into gold? That's allowed and perfectly fine and if they really wanted to do that to pay for raids that's their own thing. The amount of illegal RMT is also tiny compared to the normal ones. Why would they change something for the majority because a tiny fraction of them does something bad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illconceived Was Na.9781 Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > Just stop with the tippy toeing around what was said, and please don't try to deny you know exactly what was said. > > I honestly can't make out what your point is. I'm not skirting around any language. I've been trying to help you understand that what they've actually said and done. > > > > > The fact that ANET come out, out of the blue at a time when other factors in the game are changing in an effort to claw revenue in and jump on the "pay for spots/runs are bad RMT and account fraud areas, > > It's not "out of the blue." It's the new year; they updated **all** their policies, which mostly didn't change what happens with us; some of it is seems to be rephrased to reduce the amount of internet-lawyering going on, but mostly I think they are probably updating to conform to expected changes in regulations etc. > > > > > please be good and get your gold legit > > You realize they have said this constantly and consistently since they've been a gaming company. This isn't a new policy. > > > > > ANET made the statement there was a large proportion of RMT/ ACCOUNT FRAUD activity around the buying /selling of spot/runs > > They said: > > "after digging into the origins of the funds involved in large transfers, we learned that almost all of them were directly involved in some form of Fraud and/or RMT. Obviously, Fraud is disallowed, and Real Money Trading (RMT) is absolutely against the rules." > > > > You're interpreting that as "a large proportion of all run purchases," when it's only "large transfers of wealth." There's really no reason to imagine that this is anything other than a niche situation. ANet used the term "transfers of wealth" rather than "trading of gold," which means we're talking amounts exceeding 500 gold per week. And we know from past statements that only a tiny fraction of exchanges exceed that amount. > > > > Given that most individual raid clears are going at significantly less, we're talking about people who are buying a ton of stuff at once. That is almost certainly a tiny fraction of the 'business' of the raid selling industry. > > > > > > > hence why they choose to tolerate an activity that allows its product to be open to abuse. > > You realize that just the existence of high-value rewards in the game is what leads to RMT. Raid selling is an example of one of the things that leads to rewards, but there are many, many others. Are you saying that having legendaries sold on the TP or new permanent contracts "allows the product to be open to abuse?" > > > > > > > If they took one iota of care for the players then they would simply come out and ban the sale/purchase of spots/runs in an effort to close the gates on such nefarious activities which they say make up a large proportion of them. > > Again, that's not what they said. They referred specifically to "large transfers," which doesn't apply to the typical raid run. > > > > > The LFG is for promoting the formation of groups.. absolutely - it is not to be used to advertise and promote the sale of anything.. except the sale of spots and runs that ANET do not support. When the LFG actively shows the prices you gotta pay etc .. that is not about just forming a group it is advertising the sale of the product, the party, the spot, the run whatever you want to call it.. > > Again, no, it's still formation of the group. In this case, instead of asking for full zerk or 150 LI, they are asking for 100 gold. > > > > > > > I would have more respect if ANET simply came out and said.. we now support the buying/selling of runs but only if paid for through our internal processes. That way ANET control who, what, where and how. > > That is, in fact, what they said: they support the buying & selling of runs. They don't support account sharing to get chieves. They don't support RMT in any form. > > > > > I have nothing against ANET making money, but at least be upfront about the reasoning's behind why they continue to tolerate an activity that goes against principle and is considered to be a very large issue proportionally within the activity and puts players accounts at risk. > > I'm unclear why you think that people converting gold to gems for the express purpose of buying raid runs amounts to a significant portion of their gem sales. There's absolutely no evidence of that. > > > > What evidence we do have suggests that people spend on MountFits, BL Keys, world transfers by guilds, and all sorts of other gem shop items. > > > > I think you're also drastically underestimating the amount of wealth held by veterans of all sorts, even the most casual of players. Folks that want to come up with enough gold to see what raids are like aren't going to have that much trouble. > > > > > > **** > > tl;dr on the whole, ANet's simply restated, in a single location, their existing policy > > the only big change is making explicit that there is a burden on the seller to be careful of the biggest buyers > > > > > Nice cherry picking there.. and misinterpreting what was actually being said, but then I expected little else tbh. On the contrary, your argument rests on looking at only part of what ANet said. > Like I said it is not about making significant income through this activity channel it is tolerated because it can generate income large or small, even though ANET know and have said there is a very definite correlation between the activity and nefarious activities like RMT and account fraud. They have said no such thing. They specifically only mentioned "large wealth transfers." You seem to think that's somehow a significant fraction of all raid sales. > Any company genuinely concerned at the how such activities can impact negatively on their product and their customers would take actions not just to stop the bad stuff, but to alter the landscape in which it is happening. Which they have done: they have warned sellers. > But instead they merely tolerate it and say players do so at their own risk with no support to be offered. That's not a new policy; that policy is 10 years old. They allow trading outside the TP, including coin for goods or services; trading is at one's own risk because it's not a good use of ANet's time to deal with he-said-she-said. They do, however, suspend and sometimes ban people who scam; "no support" simply means they won't help you get your coin or time or goods refunded. > It is a very inconsistent stance on their LFG abuse policy.. What has this to do with LFG? > Using your notion I could form a group for selling almost anything in the game not just spots and runs... It's not "my notion;" it's ANet's. And sure, you can form a group to sell almost anything. You can't, however, advertise it for LFG _unless_ the nature of what's being sold requires a group. Trading an item does not require a group; offering a teleport-to-friend to the end of a tricky JP does. > like I said tippy toe all you like, What does that mean? Where am I being other than explicit about what ANet has said and how they enforce their own policies? > and try to downplay the very real issues Actually, I am pointing out that the issues claimed don't exist. There's nothing to downplay. > and the complaints of players who disagree There are always people who disagree with policies, including myself. That isn't enough to make something "an issue." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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