Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 > @"Trittium.9104" said: > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > I said this before with scourge, and condi mirage (and I was right both times) and I guess I need to say it here... > > > > Once the class gets nerfed to the point ppl will finally stop complaining, ya'all know you will move to another class right? Its an observation/trend ive noticed over the months/years. You people kind of remind me of PvP'ers and their forum. > > > > Makes me seriously wonder...How much of these posts are truly l2p/complaining because its easy to as others are doing it? Ive played many classes in WvW the last couple months (as ive had urges to try others again) and ive fought some mirages (mainly condi as out of all mirages ive seen in WvW, most were condi by a vast margin) and the classes ive wiped them on were: Core engi (p/p), core guardian (GS/Sword+focus or sword+shield as ive tried both), Daredevil (D/P), and Druid (staff/LB) and I was able to beat the Mirages more often than not. I can say that none of these builds were Meta (as I dont run meta on any builds) and were done while solo/duo roaming. All of these builds however are not a "pick up and go"...Same for the DPS mirage build I run. Took me quite of while of tweaking and practicing/sparring and lots of adapting to overcome and finally win fights. > > > > Tbh I enjoy fighting them (esp condi mirage) as ya beat em enough, they leave you alone instead of the other way around. The only real issue I see is Condi Mirage. When it comes to DPS, if they are not the 1 shot variety that runs sword, then they are not OP/unbalanced. I've played DPS mirage. Condi is cheesy af if you are even slightly decent at it. Even when im not running the endurance food (while on Mirage...also non meta) I still beat people. Not all the time but I get my fair share (and no, im not running Adventure runes but Traveler runes as I hate being slow lol) > > > > With any class complaints, its becoming harder and harder to take seriously as some of the comments do come off as a l2p issue, but are QQing because its easier to do than to adapt (which lurking the forums as much as I do I see wayyyyy to much of compared to like 3-4 years ago). > > > > If anyone is in NA and wants to actually learn to fight/beat a Mirage, I can get my DPS build together and we can spar. > > > > Edit: inb4 I know I am going to get flak from a lot of ppl here. If anything, maybe it will prove some of my points. Who knows. Either way, I iz out . :) > > I also tend to counter them pretty hard on Condi DareDevil running D/D. Just trait Lotus Training, Uncatchable, and Dagger training, Run Sigil of Agility, and keep trading between dagger 3 and dodge roll. The condi damage is too high for them to keep up with (I.E. they're forced to waste dodges to cleanse) and you're constantly evade spamming all their burst and shatters. > > on OPs subject: Mirage has a completely overtuned kit that needs to be toned down first before nerfing food buffs. However I will agree that the food does need a nerf in it's own right (I hate saying that since I use this food for almost all my builds). I do find that a condi mirage typically doesnt have a lot of cleanses. If you can keep a DoT condi on them at all times, it really puts the pressure on. My DPS non meta has Jaunt (so i use a mobility ability to cleanse 1 condi, up to 2 times) and torch 4 (which is used for repositioning). Thats all I got so I gotta be veeeeeerry careful and watch for condi spikes. 1 round of full thieves venoms, even if they run away right after, I could be toast lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solori.6025 Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 > @"sfpops.1708" said: > It has become pretty clear the Mirage class is not going to be ever properly balanced in any game mode. Given the current state of WvW small scale, it is way past time to remove the 40% endurance regen food. This food completely breaks class balance on Mirage, and really needs to be implemented ASAP. Why do food buffs need to exist in a PvP environment? Remove food across the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 > @"Solori.6025" said: > > @"sfpops.1708" said: > > It has become pretty clear the Mirage class is not going to be ever properly balanced in any game mode. Given the current state of WvW small scale, it is way past time to remove the 40% endurance regen food. This food completely breaks class balance on Mirage, and really needs to be implemented ASAP. > > Why do food buffs need to exist in a PvP environment? Remove food across the board. No. It’s not sPvP. Food buffs aren’t the problem here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solori.6025 Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > @"sfpops.1708" said: > > > It has become pretty clear the Mirage class is not going to be ever properly balanced in any game mode. Given the current state of WvW small scale, it is way past time to remove the 40% endurance regen food. This food completely breaks class balance on Mirage, and really needs to be implemented ASAP. > > > > Why do food buffs need to exist in a PvP environment? Remove food across the board. > > No. It’s not sPvP. Food buffs aren’t the problem here. > OP seems to think so. Like, let's say we remove the 40% food. Now every one will just jump to -10% damage food or power food. Then people will be right back here complaining. " this class hits to hard!" " this class tanked 4 people to stronk" @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" is right. People now complain about everything, and it's only a matter of time before we end up with WvW basically being like spvp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 > @"Solori.6025" said: > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > @"sfpops.1708" said: > > > > It has become pretty clear the Mirage class is not going to be ever properly balanced in any game mode. Given the current state of WvW small scale, it is way past time to remove the 40% endurance regen food. This food completely breaks class balance on Mirage, and really needs to be implemented ASAP. > > > > > > Why do food buffs need to exist in a PvP environment? Remove food across the board. > > > > No. It’s not sPvP. Food buffs aren’t the problem here. > > > > OP seems to think so. > Like, let's say we remove the 40% food. > Now every one will just jump to -10% damage food or power food. Then people will be right back here complaining. > > " this class hits to hard!" > " this class tanked 4 people to stronk" > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" is right. People now complain about everything, and it's only a matter of time before we end up with WvW basically being like spvp > I agree with @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" If a class is over performing, it needs to be tweaked. Not nerf batted, but tweaked. Food isn’t the issue. Either this one, or any others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coro.3176 Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 So, as I laid out above, it's the class abilities that makes mirage dodging so broken but. The food/sigils/runes certainly exacerbate the problem by a factor of ~4. They get you 3.5x as many dodges as a "normal" player. That's pretty powerful and it's especially powerful on a class that cancels cc-burst combos on dodge, dodges for an extra 0.25s each time, gains reflect after each, and can counterattack while dodging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 > @"coro.3176" said: > So, as I laid out above, it's the class abilities that makes mirage dodging so broken > > but. > > The food/sigils/runes certainly exacerbate the problem by a factor of ~4. They get you 3.5x as many dodges as a "normal" player. That's pretty powerful and it's especially powerful on a class that cancels cc-burst combos on dodge, dodges for an extra 0.25s each time, gains reflect after each, and can counterattack while dodging. > > Agreed. Which is a great justification to tweak mirage dodging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KryTiKaL.3125 Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 Honestly viewpoints like people wanting a food buff nerfed over a class or its traits is likely why Mirage hasn't been nerfed in the way that it needs to be nerfed yet. People point at the *wrong* things, even Jawgeous did that recently in a video of his. He was pointing blame at the *wrong* things as to what needs to get nerfed or tweaked on Mirage. I get he is frustrated at Mirage but as overloaded of a defensive kit Mirage has, that can still be timed around. The issue lies in that the Mirage can *negate* that counterplay aspect with how Mirage Cloak functions right now and *that* is the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 > @"coro.3176" said: > So, as I laid out above, it's the class abilities that makes mirage dodging so broken > > but. > > The food/sigils/runes certainly exacerbate the problem by a factor of ~4. They get you 3.5x as many dodges as a "normal" player. That's pretty powerful and it's especially powerful on a class that cancels cc-burst combos on dodge, dodges for an extra 0.25s each time, gains reflect after each, and can counterattack while dodging. > > Yet, we're *still* not seeing mirages everywhere, fb/rev/scourge presence absolutely **dominate** the 3+ group field so how much are those "3.5x dodges" worth? Apparently as little as condi in general since 80-90% are now running power builds regardless of zerging or roaming and they do it on other classes than mesmer. "3.5x dodges" also means very little in the current enviroment where people regardless of food can still roflstomp you before you can barely dodge. On the same build that I can go 1v2 against condi mirages, I've died to spellbreakers and holos in less than 5s simply because they locked me down - and that's when playing a hybrid mirage. Lets not even talk about the real gank groups running all power, all damage. That the target can dodge more is pretty irrelevant. When I attack people its not like I exclaim "OMG HE HAS DODGE FOOD, ITS A HARD TARGET PEOPLE!". No, I go by class... and the condi mirage is only dangerous if its a 1v1. In a group, literally all other classes are the priority threat. All classes are power creeped. The 40% dodge food isnt even used anymore unless you're so rich you dont even care - most use the free 30% food, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrHome.1920 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Mirage Cloack is not only about dodging (which on itself is already way better than the dodge on other specs). It breaks stun / makes clones invulnerable and grants futher utility and mobility (ambush). A mirage that has additional 50 endurance has either 1s more invulnerabilty **and** one more 600 leap or some other effect. Comparing only dodge numbers instead of the whole mechanic is either ignoring or not understanding basics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 > @"KrHome.1920" said: > Mirage Cloack is not only about dodging (which on itself is already way better than the dodge on other specs). It breaks stun / makes clones invulnerable and grants futher utility and mobility (ambush). > > A mirage that has additional 50 endurance has either 1s more invulnerabilty **and** one more 600 leap or some other effect. > > Comparing only dodge numbers instead of the whole mechanic is either ignoring or not understanding basics. Dodge traits (effect on dodge) Rev: 3 Guard: 1 Engie: 1 War: 1 Ranger: 3 Thief: 5 Ele: 2 Mes: 3 Necro: 1 Also I saw a certain response video of a certain person fighting Sindrener. Man Sindrener must be like, *the worst* player in existance. How does he not loose every match since surely there are 2-3 condi mirages on every team? He wouldnt be able to kill anyone thats played mirage more than a minute! **And sPvP dont even have food, what is this sorcery?!?!** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 > @"KrHome.1920" said: > Mirage Cloack is not only about dodging (which on itself is already way better than the dodge on other specs). It breaks stun / makes clones invulnerable and grants futher utility and mobility (ambush). > > A mirage that has additional 50 endurance has either 1s more invulnerabilty **and** one more 600 leap or some other effect. > > Comparing only dodge numbers instead of the whole mechanic is either ignoring or not understanding basics. Yeah, ignoring the basics...like the fact that mirage cloak can't break stun or make clones invulnerable without two grandmaster traits and breaking stun that way applies exhaustion. I'm not saying you're wrong about mirage, but it's an odd way to make your point about "ignoring or not understanding" the basics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coro.3176 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > @"KrHome.1920" said: > > Mirage Cloack is not only about dodging (which on itself is already way better than the dodge on other specs). It breaks stun / makes clones invulnerable and grants futher utility and mobility (ambush). > > > > A mirage that has additional 50 endurance has either 1s more invulnerabilty **and** one more 600 leap or some other effect. > > > > Comparing only dodge numbers instead of the whole mechanic is either ignoring or not understanding basics. > > Yeah, ignoring the basics...like the fact that mirage cloak can't break stun or make clones invulnerable without two grandmaster traits and breaking stun that way applies exhaustion. I'm not saying you're wrong about mirage, but it's an odd way to make your point about "ignoring or not understanding" the basics. It doesn't actually "break stun" but it effectively does in that it grants evade AFTER the stun has landed. It means you can play badly (get stunned in the first place) and avoid the damage with a dodge after the fact. Every other class has to anticipate or react to the stun BEFORE it hits them. This is much harder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 > @"coro.3176" said: > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > @"KrHome.1920" said: > > > Mirage Cloack is not only about dodging (which on itself is already way better than the dodge on other specs). It breaks stun / makes clones invulnerable and grants futher utility and mobility (ambush). > > > > > > A mirage that has additional 50 endurance has either 1s more invulnerabilty **and** one more 600 leap or some other effect. > > > > > > Comparing only dodge numbers instead of the whole mechanic is either ignoring or not understanding basics. > > > > Yeah, ignoring the basics...like the fact that mirage cloak can't break stun or make clones invulnerable without two grandmaster traits and breaking stun that way applies exhaustion. I'm not saying you're wrong about mirage, but it's an odd way to make your point about "ignoring or not understanding" the basics. > > It doesn't actually "break stun" but it effectively does in that it grants evade AFTER the stun has landed. It means you can play badly (get stunned in the first place) and avoid the damage with a dodge after the fact. > > Every other class has to anticipate or react to the stun BEFORE it hits them. This is much harder. If the case is that other classes are much harder... and that you can play badly and avoid damage... I'd like to bring up an old video and ask you a question: **How bad was this mirage, really?** Please rate on a scale from minion necro to signet warrior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coro.3176 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 It doesn't really affect all builds equally. It is most noticeable if you need to land a burst after CC. For example, on my engi, I want to land "Magnet -> Pry Bar". Now, Magnet is a full 1.25s channel with a visible animation to dodge. That can be pretty hard to land if an opponent is paying attention. If I *do* manage to stick it, I want some payoff for that in the form of being able to Pry Bar or Blowtorch my opponent afterward. With Mirage, I can just never do that because they'll dodge after getting pulled. Every other class has to dodge the pull. Mirage can dodge the pull if they're paying attention, but if they're not paying attention they can just dodge anyway. .. and because dodge is on a much faster recharge rate than Magnet, I'll never be able to land that CC combo even if I successfully hit every magnet throughout the entire fight. Other classes that want to do similar CC+damage combos: Ele, Warrior, Thief, etc. If an Ele lands Gale, they want to be able to follow up. If a Warrior lands Shield Bash, they want to be able to follow up. If a thief lands a Basilisk Venom Steal, they want to be able to follow up .. etc. etc. At the very least, they want the opponent to have to burn a stunbreak to get out of it. Cancelling a CC combo with a dodge should be something you have to do in reaction to the initial CC, not after you get hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 > @"coro.3176" said: > It doesn't really affect all builds equally. It is most noticeable if you need to land a burst after CC. > > For example, on my engi, I want to land "Magnet -> Pry Bar". Now, Magnet is a full 1.25s channel with a visible animation to dodge. That can be pretty hard to land if an opponent is paying attention. If I *do* manage to stick it, I want some payoff for that in the form of being able to Pry Bar or Blowtorch my opponent afterward. > > With Mirage, I can just never do that because they'll dodge after getting pulled. Every other class has to dodge the pull. Mirage can dodge the pull if they're paying attention, but if they're not paying attention they can just dodge anyway. > .. and because dodge is on a much faster recharge rate than Magnet, I'll never be able to land that CC combo even if I successfully hit every magnet throughout the entire fight. > > Other classes that want to do similar CC+damage combos: Ele, Warrior, Thief, etc. If an Ele lands Gale, they want to be able to follow up. If a Warrior lands Shield Bash, they want to be able to follow up. If a thief lands a Basilisk Venom Steal, they want to be able to follow up .. etc. etc. At the very least, they want the opponent to have to burn a stunbreak to get out of it. Cancelling a CC combo with a dodge should be something you have to do in reaction to the initial CC, not after you get hit. Basicly what this says is... magnet + pry bar is bad against a mirage dodge. And you know what? I agree. *It is*. Just like a bad engie would waste the combo on a fresh mesmer instead of baiting out the dodges before trying a pull, a bad mesmer would waste a dodge on it which leaves them open to knockdown counters seconds later. If you bother to use the pry bar, you're condi engie and shouldnt be much of a threat to the mirage to begin with. No one run condi engie today, they went extinct with the rise of the power holo and other powercreeped classes such as... well, literally everyone. It wasnt even mirage or holo that killed it - it was the scourge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coro.3176 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"coro.3176" said: > > It doesn't really affect all builds equally. It is most noticeable if you need to land a burst after CC. > > > > For example, on my engi, I want to land "Magnet -> Pry Bar". Now, Magnet is a full 1.25s channel with a visible animation to dodge. That can be pretty hard to land if an opponent is paying attention. If I *do* manage to stick it, I want some payoff for that in the form of being able to Pry Bar or Blowtorch my opponent afterward. > > > > With Mirage, I can just never do that because they'll dodge after getting pulled. Every other class has to dodge the pull. Mirage can dodge the pull if they're paying attention, but if they're not paying attention they can just dodge anyway. > > .. and because dodge is on a much faster recharge rate than Magnet, I'll never be able to land that CC combo even if I successfully hit every magnet throughout the entire fight. > > > > Other classes that want to do similar CC+damage combos: Ele, Warrior, Thief, etc. If an Ele lands Gale, they want to be able to follow up. If a Warrior lands Shield Bash, they want to be able to follow up. If a thief lands a Basilisk Venom Steal, they want to be able to follow up .. etc. etc. At the very least, they want the opponent to have to burn a stunbreak to get out of it. Cancelling a CC combo with a dodge should be something you have to do in reaction to the initial CC, not after you get hit. > Basicly what this says is... magnet + pry bar is bad against a mirage dodge. And you know what? I agree. *It is*. > > Just like a bad engie would waste the combo on a fresh mesmer instead of baiting out the dodges before trying a pull, a bad mesmer would waste a dodge on it which leaves them open to knockdown counters seconds later. If you bother to use the pry bar, you're condi engie and shouldnt be much of a threat to the mirage to begin with. No one run condi engie today, they went extinct with the rise of the power holo and other powercreeped classes such as... well, literally everyone. It wasnt even mirage or holo that killed it - it was the scourge. > Nah. It was the condi nerf patch in conjunction with not lowering overall cleanse to match, but that's beside the point. My particular hipster build is just the example I have the most experience with. However, it is equally a problem for many other builds including meta. How is a Warrior ever going to land their Bull's Charge or Shield Bash combo? How is a Ele/Weaver ever going to land their Gale combo? etc. etc. It's not just Magnet+Pry Bar. It's EVERY cc + burst combo. Baiting dodges doesn't really work when you need to bait 4-5 of them in a very short time period before you can be sure of landing your CC. Plus, the dodges recharge much faster than your must-dodge skills. If you get CCed (especially hard CC), you should eat the damage or burn a stunbreak. You should not be able to dodge out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KryTiKaL.3125 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"coro.3176" said: > > It doesn't really affect all builds equally. It is most noticeable if you need to land a burst after CC. > > > > For example, on my engi, I want to land "Magnet -> Pry Bar". Now, Magnet is a full 1.25s channel with a visible animation to dodge. That can be pretty hard to land if an opponent is paying attention. If I *do* manage to stick it, I want some payoff for that in the form of being able to Pry Bar or Blowtorch my opponent afterward. > > > > With Mirage, I can just never do that because they'll dodge after getting pulled. Every other class has to dodge the pull. Mirage can dodge the pull if they're paying attention, but if they're not paying attention they can just dodge anyway. > > .. and because dodge is on a much faster recharge rate than Magnet, I'll never be able to land that CC combo even if I successfully hit every magnet throughout the entire fight. > > > > Other classes that want to do similar CC+damage combos: Ele, Warrior, Thief, etc. If an Ele lands Gale, they want to be able to follow up. If a Warrior lands Shield Bash, they want to be able to follow up. If a thief lands a Basilisk Venom Steal, they want to be able to follow up .. etc. etc. At the very least, they want the opponent to have to burn a stunbreak to get out of it. Cancelling a CC combo with a dodge should be something you have to do in reaction to the initial CC, not after you get hit. > Basicly what this says is... magnet + pry bar is bad against a mirage dodge. And you know what? I agree. *It is*. > > Just like a bad engie would waste the combo on a fresh mesmer instead of baiting out the dodges before trying a pull, a bad mesmer would waste a dodge on it which leaves them open to knockdown counters seconds later. If you bother to use the pry bar, you're condi engie and shouldnt be much of a threat to the mirage to begin with. No one run condi engie today, they went extinct with the rise of the power holo and other powercreeped classes such as... well, literally everyone. It wasnt even mirage or holo that killed it - it was the scourge. > No one is saying to remove Mirage Cloak or to gut down the Mirage defenses (okay maybe some are but not people who actually know anything). The biggest ask myself and others have, those of us with any sense of how Mesmer is played because we fight them constantly, is that Mirage should not be able to use Mirage Cloak while they are CC'd. The only other class that has anything similar is Thief and that is from a *trait* which has a *40 second* ICD and procs after the Thief hits 50% health. Mirage Cloak has no such restrictions as that. Its baseline for Mirage and is on a sub 10 second cooldown when it functions, or is used, nearly identically to that same Thief trait (Instant Reflexes if you're curious). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > @"coro.3176" said: > > > It doesn't really affect all builds equally. It is most noticeable if you need to land a burst after CC. > > > > > > For example, on my engi, I want to land "Magnet -> Pry Bar". Now, Magnet is a full 1.25s channel with a visible animation to dodge. That can be pretty hard to land if an opponent is paying attention. If I *do* manage to stick it, I want some payoff for that in the form of being able to Pry Bar or Blowtorch my opponent afterward. > > > > > > With Mirage, I can just never do that because they'll dodge after getting pulled. Every other class has to dodge the pull. Mirage can dodge the pull if they're paying attention, but if they're not paying attention they can just dodge anyway. > > > .. and because dodge is on a much faster recharge rate than Magnet, I'll never be able to land that CC combo even if I successfully hit every magnet throughout the entire fight. > > > > > > Other classes that want to do similar CC+damage combos: Ele, Warrior, Thief, etc. If an Ele lands Gale, they want to be able to follow up. If a Warrior lands Shield Bash, they want to be able to follow up. If a thief lands a Basilisk Venom Steal, they want to be able to follow up .. etc. etc. At the very least, they want the opponent to have to burn a stunbreak to get out of it. Cancelling a CC combo with a dodge should be something you have to do in reaction to the initial CC, not after you get hit. > > Basicly what this says is... magnet + pry bar is bad against a mirage dodge. And you know what? I agree. *It is*. > > > > Just like a bad engie would waste the combo on a fresh mesmer instead of baiting out the dodges before trying a pull, a bad mesmer would waste a dodge on it which leaves them open to knockdown counters seconds later. If you bother to use the pry bar, you're condi engie and shouldnt be much of a threat to the mirage to begin with. No one run condi engie today, they went extinct with the rise of the power holo and other powercreeped classes such as... well, literally everyone. It wasnt even mirage or holo that killed it - it was the scourge. > > > > No one is saying to remove Mirage Cloak or to gut down the Mirage defenses (okay maybe some are but not people who actually know anything). The biggest ask myself and others have, those of us with any sense of how Mesmer is played because we fight them constantly, is that Mirage should not be able to use Mirage Cloak while they are CC'd. The only other class that has anything similar is Thief and that is from a *trait* which has a *40 second* ICD and procs after the Thief hits 50% health. Mirage Cloak has no such restrictions as that. Its baseline for Mirage and is on a sub 10 second cooldown when it functions, or is used, nearly identically to that same Thief trait (Instant Reflexes if you're curious). Yet a holo can still stunlock you to death. Hm. Weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KryTiKaL.3125 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > @"coro.3176" said: > > > > It doesn't really affect all builds equally. It is most noticeable if you need to land a burst after CC. > > > > > > > > For example, on my engi, I want to land "Magnet -> Pry Bar". Now, Magnet is a full 1.25s channel with a visible animation to dodge. That can be pretty hard to land if an opponent is paying attention. If I *do* manage to stick it, I want some payoff for that in the form of being able to Pry Bar or Blowtorch my opponent afterward. > > > > > > > > With Mirage, I can just never do that because they'll dodge after getting pulled. Every other class has to dodge the pull. Mirage can dodge the pull if they're paying attention, but if they're not paying attention they can just dodge anyway. > > > > .. and because dodge is on a much faster recharge rate than Magnet, I'll never be able to land that CC combo even if I successfully hit every magnet throughout the entire fight. > > > > > > > > Other classes that want to do similar CC+damage combos: Ele, Warrior, Thief, etc. If an Ele lands Gale, they want to be able to follow up. If a Warrior lands Shield Bash, they want to be able to follow up. If a thief lands a Basilisk Venom Steal, they want to be able to follow up .. etc. etc. At the very least, they want the opponent to have to burn a stunbreak to get out of it. Cancelling a CC combo with a dodge should be something you have to do in reaction to the initial CC, not after you get hit. > > > Basicly what this says is... magnet + pry bar is bad against a mirage dodge. And you know what? I agree. *It is*. > > > > > > Just like a bad engie would waste the combo on a fresh mesmer instead of baiting out the dodges before trying a pull, a bad mesmer would waste a dodge on it which leaves them open to knockdown counters seconds later. If you bother to use the pry bar, you're condi engie and shouldnt be much of a threat to the mirage to begin with. No one run condi engie today, they went extinct with the rise of the power holo and other powercreeped classes such as... well, literally everyone. It wasnt even mirage or holo that killed it - it was the scourge. > > > > > > > No one is saying to remove Mirage Cloak or to gut down the Mirage defenses (okay maybe some are but not people who actually know anything). The biggest ask myself and others have, those of us with any sense of how Mesmer is played because we fight them constantly, is that Mirage should not be able to use Mirage Cloak while they are CC'd. The only other class that has anything similar is Thief and that is from a *trait* which has a *40 second* ICD and procs after the Thief hits 50% health. Mirage Cloak has no such restrictions as that. Its baseline for Mirage and is on a sub 10 second cooldown when it functions, or is used, nearly identically to that same Thief trait (Instant Reflexes if you're curious). > Yet a holo can still stunlock you to death. Hm. Weird. Lemme guess...Mirage main? I can understand if you don't want your class to get nerfed into obscurity, especially considering all the other nerfs that Mesmer in general has been hit with that were very likely unnecessary and made Core Mesmer and Chrono much more obscure and less appealing to use over Mirage. Though if I'm being honest I fought a Core Mesmer today and they refused to die, also put out a lot of pressure in the form of constant Confusion and making it so that trading was a bad idea. They played very well and were built rather tanky from the looks of it, and they nearly killed me because it was so obscure to see a Mesmer actually dodge roll important skills or try to use their more limited defenses (compared to Mirage) much more intelligently (the duel ended in a stalemate). Which is something I don't see Mirages do frequently, especially if I ask them to use something other than Mirage when they 1v1 me. When you see them fumble about on Core Mesmer or Chrono when they don't have those chained evades or the safety net of Mirage Cloak after they get hit by a CC its kind of amusing. Mirage will by no means be murdered by changing Mirage Cloak to being unusable while CC'd, Mesmer got along more than fine before Mirage and the Phantasm rework came along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 It would be better if they removed Sigil of Energy. But removing the food would be better than nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"coro.3176" said: > > So, as I laid out above, it's the class abilities that makes mirage dodging so broken > > > > but. > > > > The food/sigils/runes certainly exacerbate the problem by a factor of ~4. They get you 3.5x as many dodges as a "normal" player. That's pretty powerful and it's especially powerful on a class that cancels cc-burst combos on dodge, dodges for an extra 0.25s each time, gains reflect after each, and can counterattack while dodging. > > > > > Yet, we're *still* not seeing mirages everywhere, fb/rev/scourge presence absolutely **dominate** the 3+ group field so how much are those "3.5x dodges" worth? Just because you don't see an overabundance of Mirages in a group setting does not make the problem null. This game mode has many sub areas of play, and solo/duo roaming is one of them. And in that regards, we *do* see Mirages everywhere, and have for quite some time. They still are the most represented roamer in t1/2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 > @"Turk.5460" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > @"coro.3176" said: > > > So, as I laid out above, it's the class abilities that makes mirage dodging so broken > > > > > > but. > > > > > > The food/sigils/runes certainly exacerbate the problem by a factor of ~4. They get you 3.5x as many dodges as a "normal" player. That's pretty powerful and it's especially powerful on a class that cancels cc-burst combos on dodge, dodges for an extra 0.25s each time, gains reflect after each, and can counterattack while dodging. > > > > > > > > Yet, we're *still* not seeing mirages everywhere, fb/rev/scourge presence absolutely **dominate** the 3+ group field so how much are those "3.5x dodges" worth? > > Just because you don't see an overabundance of Mirages in a group setting does not make the problem null. This game mode has many sub areas of play, and solo/duo roaming is one of them. And in that regards, we *do* see Mirages everywhere, and have for quite some time. They still are the most represented roamer in t1/2 T1/T2 EU for the last...well months. I see mostly Rifle holosmiths, soulbeasts, Shiro/glint revs, deadeyes, warriors, condi mirages then scourges or reaper/firebrands as a duo and then ele. Yes mostly in that order from most prevalent to least. You see mostly condi mirages out of the mesmer class and even the occasional chrono but they're nowhere near as well represented small scale as holo, soulbeast and rev, not even close as these 3 have a lot more sustained damage, AoE and escape while killing people out of defences much much quicker than condi. As you scale up it becomes FB+necro in some capacity then adding in wars, holos, revs until you get to 5-10 where you start adding in more necros, revs and FB. At 10+ you start dropping the holo and might add in an ele every few other classes but you keep stacking FB, scourge and rev. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 > @"Turk.5460" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > @"coro.3176" said: > > > So, as I laid out above, it's the class abilities that makes mirage dodging so broken > > > > > > but. > > > > > > The food/sigils/runes certainly exacerbate the problem by a factor of ~4. They get you 3.5x as many dodges as a "normal" player. That's pretty powerful and it's especially powerful on a class that cancels cc-burst combos on dodge, dodges for an extra 0.25s each time, gains reflect after each, and can counterattack while dodging. > > > > > > > > Yet, we're *still* not seeing mirages everywhere, fb/rev/scourge presence absolutely **dominate** the 3+ group field so how much are those "3.5x dodges" worth? > > Just because you don't see an overabundance of Mirages in a group setting does not make the problem null. This game mode has many sub areas of play, and solo/duo roaming is one of them. And in that regards, we *do* see Mirages everywhere, and have for quite some time. They still are the most represented roamer in t1/2 They are definetly not the most represented roamer, but I've said it before and I'm saying it again - **mirage is one of the best 1v1 classes and condi mirage in particular heavily punish those that cant condi cleanse**. I dont dispute that. But WvW isnt black and white. 1v1 is a very small aspect of it. WvW encourage group combat - in fact I would dare say that is the **point** of WvW. We're not even talking zergs here, just 2+. At the end of the day maybe you wont win a 1v1, but any class can kill assist in group combat. And coincidentally, as I've also said many times, the condi mirage is worse at that than pretty much anyone else. Other classes share similar fates, such as thief and ranger... perhaps its a pattern that good 1v1 arent really taken in group combat? *Something something balance.* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddie.5861 Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 > @"sfpops.1708" said: > > @"DemonSeed.3528" said: > > I'll let you in on a little secret - it's not even going to make a dent in whatever is troubling you if that food gets removed. You are looking at the wrong thing to pin the blame on. If this good gets removed, guess what? They will still be strong. > > Yeah, they will still be strong. The class is broken. > > But there is PvP tier broken and then there is WvW roaming/small scale broken. This food is a major culprit of how insanely OP they are in WvW at the moment. I will happily settle for something closer to PvP levels of broken and not have to deal with Mesmers with perma 40% endurance regen and 90% regen with Vigor. makes a different in a longer fight nowadays every1 is either 1 banging you or they shit condis all over your face. you either died from ambush power mirage. or u cleanse all condi's and still die cus mirage.. if none of the 2 above he ran away cus u did little to much dmg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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