Majirah.5089 Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 > @Mikeskies.1536 said: > > @Mutaatti.2789 said: > > > @Mikeskies.1536 said: > > > > @Mutaatti.2789 said: > > > > > @Mikeskies.1536 said: > > > > > > @Mutaatti.2789 said: > > > > > > > @Hitman.5829 said: > > > > > > > People need to stop whining and learn to play! Full counter is perfectly fine; in the worst case scenario, full counter is a useless skill when fighting 1 vs 1 or range individuals (which is most of them). Full counter is finally the skill that warrior needed for WvW and PvP. Stop complaining because you are getting owned and learn to play! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One can make the argument that full counter is a mediocre skill on 1 vs 1 because of this: > > > > > > > 1. - It activates only if you attack the warrior, and the animation is extremely obvious. > > > > > > > 2. If the warrior has quickness, then the skill has a cast time of 1/2 the time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, what i have noticed in PvE is that the mobs have very slow attack reaction times that full counter is often missed because they simply don't hit the kitten skill. > > > > > > > Be patient and don't spam your kitten skills like a zombie 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,f1,f2,f3,f4,f5. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a learn to play issue and not a balance issue! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have fought many spell-breakers and I know when they will be using their full counter so I simply walk away because they cannot attack me while they are using full counter. Use your brain, learn to play, and stop whining because you are getting owned for spamming your skills like a zombie! > > > > > > > > > > > > Well please tell me then if you know, how to not trigger FC as a mesmer? Or ranger? Or minionmaster necro? Or symbol guardian? Ihave not seen any advice how to 1v1 spellbreaker as any of these classes. > > > > > > > > > > Full Counter is a mechanic, just like any other mechanic. How do I avoid getting shattered by a memser? Or nuked at range by a ranger? Or getting condi-bombed by a necro? Or getting pulled into guardian traps? > > > > > > > > Lol. You didn't answer my question. Afraid of telling people how to crush your class? Or afraid to tell everyone it's impossible? Everyone knows how to counter those classes. I'm asking how to counter spellbreaker if you play any of classes you adressed. > > > > > > How to counter Full Counter: > > > > > > 1. Attack Full Counter from out of range. > > > 2. Attack Full Counter then Evade or Block or go Immune. > > > 3. Wait out Full Counter, then attack. > > > 4. Attack Full Counter and get hit by it, but don't cast so the Daze doesn't interrupt you. > > > > > > If Full Counter doesn't hit, Spellbreaker gets no benefits. > > > > But mesmer illusions can proc FC, ranger pet can do it if not careful, necro minions and guardian symbols can proc it. And you can dodge. 2 times. How about third time, when you dont have dodge? Because you cant kill good SB in less than 24 secs. Or even mediocre. > > **But mesmer illusions can proc FC, ranger pet can do it if not careful, necro minions and guardian symbols can proc it. ** You can use all those to your advantage to proc Full Counter when you are not in range, or realize Full Counter is coming and evade or get out of range with a movement skill. > > All classes have abilities to evade. You have to make a choice on what you want to evade and what you want to eat. It's the same for every spec. I don't know what to tell you. > > I dumpster on other Spellbreakers all the time, killing them in less than 24 seconds. Sounds like the person wants to be able to do nothing and never have to worry about full counter. All they have to do is not attack, dodge, or proc from range. Answer is easy and often times pretty easy in practice. But then they get upset that they wasted clones or dodges. Because other classes don't have to dodge ranger, Mesmer, or necro attacks? People just don't want to adapt. Human nature so I guess you can't blame them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Majirah.5089 Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 > @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said: > > @Mikeskies.1536 said: > > > @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said: > > > > @Mikeskies.1536 said: > > > > > @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said: > > > > > > @Mikeskies.1536 said: > > > > > > > @nosleepdemon.1368 said: > > > > > > > > @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said: > > > > > > > > > @Hana.8143 said: > > > > > > > > > As said in other post, Aoe classes are weak to FC. When you can't interrupt your skill, you're pretty much gonna take FC in your face. > > > > > > > > > Weaver's primordial stance is a good exemple, supposed to deal a lot of condi damage but... 5 pulses -> Use Fc -> resistance. > > > > > > > > > That makes primordial stance pretty much useless (and I removed it since it's no used again SB.) Also it has another weakness since it has a low range, you're missing your condi burst pretty easily but we're not talking about weaver are we ? :D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > FC has a great mechanic, but I feel like it can benefit from almost every situation. Add the low CD, and you have what you have right now, a tanky class with lots of damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nerf is probably coming. Get ready ! :/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nah, it's too telegraphed enemies can easily dodge, stow weapons, or walk away. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah it is highly telegraphed, but will the majority of players understand how to avoid it? It would be lovely if the game weren't full of semi sentient potatoes, but it is. FC may be nerfed simply because players keep walking into the obvious trap. > > > > > > > > > > > > But the thing is, I play as Strength, Discipline, Spellbreaker and I win the majority of fights against Defence, Discipline, Spellbreakers. Even if I get hit by Full Counter, I don't find it detrimental. Okay, I get dazed and take 3k damage. What's the big deal? I don't even have Endure Pain, or Last Stand, yet I am able to win against other Spellbreakers. I last out their immunities then hit them with a Dagger 2-3-4, followed up by Arcing Slice, etc. > > > > > > > > > > Do you know if you've fought any Strength, Defense, Spellbreaker ones? I've been trying that more competitively just gotta get used to not having fast hands or warrior sprint. > > > > > > > > I can't say I have. Discipline is kinda needed. Fast Hands, Cleanse on Swap, Burst Mastery, Warrior's Sprint. I don't think it is worth it. Dagger/Shield works because you can swap to Greatsword right away to actually do damage. It is also likely overkill in terms of survivability. > > > > > > I know it's REALLY hard giving up discipline(trust me I've thought long and hard about giving up a trait line I've literally been running since day 1), but I get my heals from might makes right, sun/moon, AH all working together, and condition cleanse from cleansing ire. It's a build you just have to keep after your enemy to survive, you just have to keep hitting them to heal and condi cleanse. > > > > I just think you'll be stuck in Dagger/Shield too long to do any damage. > > Idk, I still down people with D/D, wastrel's ruin hits soo good I can't pass it up, I may miss out on blocks, but I at least have a reflect on dagger 5. I actually really enjoy playing dagger dagger. Highest hit I've gotten with dagger 4 is 17.8k so far in a pvp match. But I get at least one hit over 12k with it every match. I have 2 shot some people with a dagger 3 and 4 combo several times. Granted I do have a glass build. Dagger 5 can hit pretty hard too. Might not be optimal, but I think the whole dagger kit is fun. It flows nicely between the attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sykper.6583 Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 I don't see Full Counter getting a nerf as large as what people are claiming. I think it's a bit potent for an 8s alternative burst skill, and if you run Discipline it drops down to 6.75 seconds which means in some circumstances you might actually be Adrenaline Starved as the cooldown finishes! It's also the trademark of the traitline, we got massive hits recently to our Burst benefit upkeeps like Adrenal Health and Berserker's Power. I think the devs knew keeping those in their previous state if Spellbreaker went live would have been just too good. They are definitely keeping an eye on us, no question. If I HAD to guess the nerfs... ...It would be changing the baseline from 8s to 10s. No hit to the damage and effect of Revenge Counter, or the utility of Magebane. Literally a few second cooldown increase, not a disgusting "DOUBLE THE COOLDOWN DEVS THIS SHIT IS OP I CAN'T JUST METEOR SHOWER ON POINT REEEEEEEEE!" Small balance changes are key here, Spellbreaker really isn't that far from balanced, Warrior is still holding true to being a very, very balanced profession in the SPvP scene. There are other broken builds on polarized ends of the power spectrum that need more help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutaatti.2789 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 > @Mikeskies.1536 said: > > @Mutaatti.2789 said: > > > @Mikeskies.1536 said: > > > > @Mutaatti.2789 said: > > > > > @Mikeskies.1536 said: > > > > > > @Mutaatti.2789 said: > > > > > > > @Hitman.5829 said: > > > > > > > People need to stop whining and learn to play! Full counter is perfectly fine; in the worst case scenario, full counter is a useless skill when fighting 1 vs 1 or range individuals (which is most of them). Full counter is finally the skill that warrior needed for WvW and PvP. Stop complaining because you are getting owned and learn to play! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One can make the argument that full counter is a mediocre skill on 1 vs 1 because of this: > > > > > > > 1. - It activates only if you attack the warrior, and the animation is extremely obvious. > > > > > > > 2. If the warrior has quickness, then the skill has a cast time of 1/2 the time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, what i have noticed in PvE is that the mobs have very slow attack reaction times that full counter is often missed because they simply don't hit the kitten skill. > > > > > > > Be patient and don't spam your kitten skills like a zombie 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,f1,f2,f3,f4,f5. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a learn to play issue and not a balance issue! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have fought many spell-breakers and I know when they will be using their full counter so I simply walk away because they cannot attack me while they are using full counter. Use your brain, learn to play, and stop whining because you are getting owned for spamming your skills like a zombie! > > > > > > > > > > > > Well please tell me then if you know, how to not trigger FC as a mesmer? Or ranger? Or minionmaster necro? Or symbol guardian? Ihave not seen any advice how to 1v1 spellbreaker as any of these classes. > > > > > > > > > > Full Counter is a mechanic, just like any other mechanic. How do I avoid getting shattered by a memser? Or nuked at range by a ranger? Or getting condi-bombed by a necro? Or getting pulled into guardian traps? > > > > > > > > Lol. You didn't answer my question. Afraid of telling people how to crush your class? Or afraid to tell everyone it's impossible? Everyone knows how to counter those classes. I'm asking how to counter spellbreaker if you play any of classes you adressed. > > > > > > How to counter Full Counter: > > > > > > 1. Attack Full Counter from out of range. > > > 2. Attack Full Counter then Evade or Block or go Immune. > > > 3. Wait out Full Counter, then attack. > > > 4. Attack Full Counter and get hit by it, but don't cast so the Daze doesn't interrupt you. > > > > > > If Full Counter doesn't hit, Spellbreaker gets no benefits. > > > > But mesmer illusions can proc FC, ranger pet can do it if not careful, necro minions and guardian symbols can proc it. And you can dodge. 2 times. How about third time, when you dont have dodge? Because you cant kill good SB in less than 24 secs. Or even mediocre. > > **But mesmer illusions can proc FC, ranger pet can do it if not careful, necro minions and guardian symbols can proc it. ** You can use all those to your advantage to proc Full Counter when you are not in range, or realize Full Counter is coming and evade or get out of range with a movement skill. > > All classes have abilities to evade. You have to make a choice on what you want to evade and what you want to eat. It's the same for every spec. I don't know what to tell you. > > I dumpster on other Spellbreakers all the time, killing them in less than 24 seconds. Well... Except all of them doesnt work .. Like ranger sword #2... It hits, starts animation to evade, gets interrupted. Some are too fast. Like ranger dagger #4. It rolls so fast around spellbreaker and evade isnt long enough to dodge FC... And no. You CAN'T get out of range against warrior closer than 1000. Okay mesmer can if he has portal ready. Or you run away. That aint no kiting. Thats surrendering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carighan.6758 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 With Spellbreaker essentially being what Mesmer **should** have been from day 1 (a spec which actually meddles with other's ability to play their characters), I am quite happy Full Counter works the way it does. People need to stop attacking! Perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry.5713 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 Been meeting quite a few people who played around the Full Counter and did well lately. It can certainly be done by many specs and classes. Even if the Full Counter mechanic is on the strong side of things and needs a little readjusting. But you also get people who try to lure you into guards in WvW just to tell you that you suck and only killed them because guards proc Full Counter. I am wondering if they are actually the ones asking for the harsher nerfs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeskies.1536 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 > @Henry.5713 said: > Been meeting quite a few people who played around the Full Counter and did well lately. It can certainly be done by many specs and classes. Even if the Full Counter mechanic is on the strong side of things and needs a little readjusting. > But you also get people who try to lure you into guards in WvW just to tell you that you suck and only killed them because guards proc Full Counter. I am wondering if they are actually the ones asking for the harsher nerfs. Well, Spellbreaker in WvW vs Spellbreaker in sPvP are two different beasts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry.5713 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 > @Mikeskies.1536 said: > > @Henry.5713 said: > > Been meeting quite a few people who played around the Full Counter and did well lately. It can certainly be done by many specs and classes. Even if the Full Counter mechanic is on the strong side of things and needs a little readjusting. > > But you also get people who try to lure you into guards in WvW just to tell you that you suck and only killed them because guards proc Full Counter. I am wondering if they are actually the ones asking for the harsher nerfs. > > Well, Spellbreaker in WvW vs Spellbreaker in sPvP are two different beasts. The first part of what I said was about sPvP rather than WvW. They are on the strong side in both modes, maybe for slightly different reasons and a bit better in WvW than in sPvP from what I have seen and played myself. Full Counter is still one of the mechanics they need to look into. Don't get me wrong, there are of course other mechanics which are far more broken than that nor do I feel like a harsh nerf to about every feature of the skill is anything but a refusal to lern how to fight a spellbreaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeskies.1536 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 > @Henry.5713 said: > > @Mikeskies.1536 said: > > > @Henry.5713 said: > > > Been meeting quite a few people who played around the Full Counter and did well lately. It can certainly be done by many specs and classes. Even if the Full Counter mechanic is on the strong side of things and needs a little readjusting. > > > But you also get people who try to lure you into guards in WvW just to tell you that you suck and only killed them because guards proc Full Counter. I am wondering if they are actually the ones asking for the harsher nerfs. > > > > Well, Spellbreaker in WvW vs Spellbreaker in sPvP are two different beasts. > > The first part of what I said was about sPvP rather than WvW. They are on the strong side in both modes, maybe for slightly different reasons and a bit better in WvW than in sPvP from what I have seen and played myself. Full Counter is still one of the mechanics they need to look into. > Don't get me wrong, there are of course other mechanics which are far more broken than that nor do I feel like a harsh nerf to about every feature of the skill is anything but a refusal to lern how to fight a spellbreaker. I have a hard time believing that Full Counter is broken. When I duel other Spellbreakers, it is not Full Counter that puts me most at risk, it is Stuns boosted by Sigil of Savagery. I also think Revenge Counter is overloaded in terms of what it can do, and it can only do that because of the Scourge Condition-bomb., which is also the reason why the meta-Spellbreaker build stacks so much resistance. Any other Condi-build can be dealt with without selecting Revenge Counter and Berserker's Stance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choppy.4183 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 > @Mutaatti.2789 said: > > @Mikeskies.1536 said: > > > @Mutaatti.2789 said: > > > > @Mikeskies.1536 said: > > > > > @Mutaatti.2789 said: > > > > > > @Mikeskies.1536 said: > > > > > > > @Mutaatti.2789 said: > > > > > > > > @Hitman.5829 said: > > > > > > > > People need to stop whining and learn to play! Full counter is perfectly fine; in the worst case scenario, full counter is a useless skill when fighting 1 vs 1 or range individuals (which is most of them). Full counter is finally the skill that warrior needed for WvW and PvP. Stop complaining because you are getting owned and learn to play! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One can make the argument that full counter is a mediocre skill on 1 vs 1 because of this: > > > > > > > > 1. - It activates only if you attack the warrior, and the animation is extremely obvious. > > > > > > > > 2. If the warrior has quickness, then the skill has a cast time of 1/2 the time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, what i have noticed in PvE is that the mobs have very slow attack reaction times that full counter is often missed because they simply don't hit the kitten skill. > > > > > > > > Be patient and don't spam your kitten skills like a zombie 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,f1,f2,f3,f4,f5. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a learn to play issue and not a balance issue! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have fought many spell-breakers and I know when they will be using their full counter so I simply walk away because they cannot attack me while they are using full counter. Use your brain, learn to play, and stop whining because you are getting owned for spamming your skills like a zombie! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well please tell me then if you know, how to not trigger FC as a mesmer? Or ranger? Or minionmaster necro? Or symbol guardian? Ihave not seen any advice how to 1v1 spellbreaker as any of these classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Full Counter is a mechanic, just like any other mechanic. How do I avoid getting shattered by a memser? Or nuked at range by a ranger? Or getting condi-bombed by a necro? Or getting pulled into guardian traps? > > > > > > > > > > Lol. You didn't answer my question. Afraid of telling people how to crush your class? Or afraid to tell everyone it's impossible? Everyone knows how to counter those classes. I'm asking how to counter spellbreaker if you play any of classes you adressed. > > > > > > > > How to counter Full Counter: > > > > > > > > 1. Attack Full Counter from out of range. > > > > 2. Attack Full Counter then Evade or Block or go Immune. > > > > 3. Wait out Full Counter, then attack. > > > > 4. Attack Full Counter and get hit by it, but don't cast so the Daze doesn't interrupt you. > > > > > > > > If Full Counter doesn't hit, Spellbreaker gets no benefits. > > > > > > But mesmer illusions can proc FC, ranger pet can do it if not careful, necro minions and guardian symbols can proc it. And you can dodge. 2 times. How about third time, when you dont have dodge? Because you cant kill good SB in less than 24 secs. Or even mediocre. > > > > **But mesmer illusions can proc FC, ranger pet can do it if not careful, necro minions and guardian symbols can proc it. ** You can use all those to your advantage to proc Full Counter when you are not in range, or realize Full Counter is coming and evade or get out of range with a movement skill. > > > > All classes have abilities to evade. You have to make a choice on what you want to evade and what you want to eat. It's the same for every spec. I don't know what to tell you. > > > > I dumpster on other Spellbreakers all the time, killing them in less than 24 seconds. > > Well... Except all of them doesnt work > .. Like ranger sword #2... It hits, starts animation to evade, gets interrupted. Some are too fast. Like ranger dagger #4. It rolls so fast around spellbreaker and evade isnt long enough to dodge FC... And no. You CAN'T get out of range against warrior closer than 1000. Okay mesmer can if he has portal ready. Or you run away. That aint no kiting. Thats surrendering. Then your timing needs work (e.g. look at your comment about dagger). You're a ranger, you have more tools to deal with Spellbreakers than I do as a core warrior, and I'm having zero problem just using my dodge (and in full melee). And rangers absolutely have the tools to get away from warriors at close range and have since HoT. Soulbeast provides all sorts of tools too. In fact, the ol' move and lb technique is something most warriors aren't well equipped to handle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcaedus.7290 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 Here's some things people don't seem to be understanding about full counter (FC): * First off, 1.5s is the total amount of time you "block" with FC, not the cast time of the counter-strike that goes off after you do absorb an attack. * When pressing f2, the "block" frames start IMMEDIATELY. There is no wind-up or tell that FC is about to start, so proper usage of FC means you can almost guarantee that you're going to be able to absorb an attack to proc the counter-strike immediately with little to no frames of that floating diamondy "obvious" animation. * The amount of time in between successfully "blocking" an attack with FC and delivering the counter-strike is between 0.25 and 0.5s. It's faster than human reaction time. * FC is barely balanced for 1v1. What people are complaining about is how broken it is in 1vX or XvX situations. Here are some scenarios I encourage any of you to test out: 1. Have a spell breaker and a thief. Have the spellbreaker use full counter, and have the thief use heartseeker once, immediately spamming dodge to try and avoid the counter-strike. This can be repeated with any number of leap skills on other classes. 2. Have SB and any other warrior with a greatsword. Have the spell breaker use FC and then have the other warrior use GS3 through the full-counter. Will GS3's short amount of evade frames be enough to both hit full-counter and dodge the follow-up counter strike? 3. Have a minion-master reaper (+ minions with "Rise!") sic every minion they have on a spell-breaker. At some point, the spell-breaker will use full-counter (he can stow/draw weapon to bait out dodes). Out of 10 FCs, see how many the reaper can dodge reflexively. Dodges when FC is not used count as fails. 4. Have a revenant use Unrelenting Assault. Count 4 strikes, and use FC on the fifth strike. Have the revenant try to dodge to avoid FC as soon as UR ends. Rev can even try this with quickness on. What you'll find is that FC comes out so fast, that it catches people during after-casts not allowing enough time to dodge. It most definitely comes out at 0.5s or faster since a 0.75s (or lesss) evade is enough to avoid damage of it. And it's very difficult to react to reflexively. In 1v1s, you can predict a FC coming, or possibly dodge it if you throw down a damage-pulsing field (or projectile) and see the spellbreaker use FC before-hand. If used correctly and by a smart/fast spellbreaker though, you aren't going to be dodging full-counter. This wouldn't be so bad if FC wasn't such a punishing safety net of a skill. These are all the exact same reasons that Arc Divider was nerfed to 0.75s cast time up from 0.5s originally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeskies.1536 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 > @Arcaedus.7290 said: > Here's some things people don't seem to be understanding about full counter (FC): > > * First off, 1.5s is the total amount of time you "block" with FC, not the cast time of the counter-strike that goes off after you do absorb an attack. > * When pressing f2, the "block" frames start IMMEDIATELY. There is no wind-up or tell that FC is about to start, so proper usage of FC means you can almost guarantee that you're going to be able to absorb an attack to proc the counter-strike immediately with little to no frames of that floating diamondy "obvious" animation. > * The amount of time in between successfully "blocking" an attack with FC and delivering the counter-strike is between 0.25 and 0.5s. It's faster than human reaction time. > * FC is barely balanced for 1v1. What people are complaining about is how broken it is in 1vX or XvX situations. > > Here are some scenarios I encourage any of you to test out: > > 1. Have a spell breaker and a thief. Have the spellbreaker use full counter, and have the thief use heartseeker once, immediately spamming dodge to try and avoid the counter-strike. This can be repeated with any number of leap skills on other classes. > 2. Have SB and any other warrior with a greatsword. Have the spell breaker use FC and then have the other warrior use GS3 through the full-counter. Will GS3's short amount of evade frames be enough to both hit full-counter and dodge the follow-up counter strike? > 3. Have a minion-master reaper (+ minions with "Rise!") sic every minion they have on a spell-breaker. At some point, the spell-breaker will use full-counter (he can stow/draw weapon to bait out dodes). Out of 10 FCs, see how many the reaper can dodge reflexively. Dodges when FC is not used count as fails. > 4. Have a revenant use Unrelenting Assault. Count 4 strikes, and use FC on the fifth strike. Have the revenant try to dodge to avoid FC as soon as UR ends. Rev can even try this with quickness on. > > What you'll find is that FC comes out so fast, that it catches people during after-casts not allowing enough time to dodge. It most definitely comes out at 0.5s or faster since a 0.75s (or lesss) evade is enough to avoid damage of it. And it's very difficult to react to reflexively. In 1v1s, you can predict a FC coming, or possibly dodge it if you throw down a damage-pulsing field (or projectile) and see the spellbreaker use FC before-hand. If used correctly and by a smart/fast spellbreaker though, you aren't going to be dodging full-counter. This wouldn't be so bad if FC wasn't such a punishing safety net of a skill. These are all the exact same reasons that Arc Divider was nerfed to 0.75s cast time up from 0.5s originally. This is what I do to other Spellbreakers when they use Full Counter: 1. Whirlwind 2. Swap to Dagger/Dagger 3. Bull's Charge 4. Wastrel's Ruin 5. Breaching Strike 6. Aura Slicer 7. Disrupting Stab 8. Swap to Greatsword 9. Arcing Slice 10. Full Counter 11. Arcing Slice All the while dodge spamming thanks to Might Makes Right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighter.5631 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 full counter needs smaller aoe, that's about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choppy.4183 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 > @Arcaedus.7290 said: > Here are some scenarios I encourage any of you to test out: > > 1. Have a spell breaker and a thief. Have the spellbreaker use full counter, and have the thief use heartseeker once, immediately spamming dodge to try and avoid the counter-strike. This can be repeated with any number of leap skills on other classes. > 2. Have SB and any other warrior with a greatsword. Have the spell breaker use FC and then have the other warrior use GS3 through the full-counter. Will GS3's short amount of evade frames be enough to both hit full-counter and dodge the follow-up counter strike? > 3. Have a minion-master reaper (+ minions with "Rise!") sic every minion they have on a spell-breaker. At some point, the spell-breaker will use full-counter (he can stow/draw weapon to bait out dodes). Out of 10 FCs, see how many the reaper can dodge reflexively. Dodges when FC is not used count as fails. > 4. Have a revenant use Unrelenting Assault. Count 4 strikes, and use FC on the fifth strike. Have the revenant try to dodge to avoid FC as soon as UR ends. Rev can even try this with quickness on. 1. You'll eat an attack that does similar damage to what you were trying to do to the warrior. Fun facts: Your basi venom will go right through FC, you can also attack from stealth, you can use your shortbow to plink the SB to nothing, you have control over the engagement (class feature of the thief through ports, stealth, and mobility). 2. Have been doing it all week, tearing up Spellbreakers in 1vx and xvx scenarios. Even if I eat an FC, it's less dangerous than other stuff flying around *even from the SB*; though others as well. 3. Then the minionmancer should be staying 300 units away if possible, but know that it will eat a hit that is less than many of the others he'll also eat (if he can't dodge it). 4. Your concern is that a powerful rev skill is being counterplayed using a powerful war skill? Is the expectation that nobody should ever eat an FC? Because the damage isn't *that* high even if you do, but there are still counterplay options so that you don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahlen.7591 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 "Oh no what should I do about this easily kited highly telegraphed class? HOW CAN I BEAT IT!?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcaedus.7290 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 > @Choppy.4183 said: > > @Arcaedus.7290 said: > > Here are some scenarios I encourage any of you to test out: > > > > 1. Have a spell breaker and a thief. Have the spellbreaker use full counter, and have the thief use heartseeker once, immediately spamming dodge to try and avoid the counter-strike. This can be repeated with any number of leap skills on other classes. > > 2. Have SB and any other warrior with a greatsword. Have the spell breaker use FC and then have the other warrior use GS3 through the full-counter. Will GS3's short amount of evade frames be enough to both hit full-counter and dodge the follow-up counter strike? > > 3. Have a minion-master reaper (+ minions with "Rise!") sic every minion they have on a spell-breaker. At some point, the spell-breaker will use full-counter (he can stow/draw weapon to bait out dodes). Out of 10 FCs, see how many the reaper can dodge reflexively. Dodges when FC is not used count as fails. > > 4. Have a revenant use Unrelenting Assault. Count 4 strikes, and use FC on the fifth strike. Have the revenant try to dodge to avoid FC as soon as UR ends. Rev can even try this with quickness on. > > 1. You'll eat an attack that does similar damage to what you were trying to do to the warrior. Fun facts: Your basi venom will go right through FC, you can also attack from stealth, you can use your shortbow to plink the SB to nothing, you have control over the engagement (class feature of the thief through ports, stealth, and mobility). > > 2. Have been doing it all week, tearing up Spellbreakers in 1vx and xvx scenarios. Even if I eat an FC, it's less dangerous than other stuff flying around *even from the SB*; though others as well. > > 3. Then the minionmancer should be staying 300 units away if possible, but know that it will eat a hit that is less than many of the others he'll also eat (if he can't dodge it). > > 4. Your concern is that a powerful rev skill is being counterplayed using a powerful war skill? > > Is the expectation that nobody should ever eat an FC? Because the damage isn't *that* high even if you do, but there are still counterplay options so that you don't. My bad, I should have been more explicit. These scenarios are meant to demonstrate that full-counter comes out far too fast for someone to react to reflexively, and should thus have its activation time increased. By this, I mean the time in between when you "block" an attack and when the counter-strike goes out should be increased to around 0.75s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choppy.4183 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 > @Arcaedus.7290 said: > > @Choppy.4183 said: > > > @Arcaedus.7290 said: > > > Here are some scenarios I encourage any of you to test out: > > > > > > 1. Have a spell breaker and a thief. Have the spellbreaker use full counter, and have the thief use heartseeker once, immediately spamming dodge to try and avoid the counter-strike. This can be repeated with any number of leap skills on other classes. > > > 2. Have SB and any other warrior with a greatsword. Have the spell breaker use FC and then have the other warrior use GS3 through the full-counter. Will GS3's short amount of evade frames be enough to both hit full-counter and dodge the follow-up counter strike? > > > 3. Have a minion-master reaper (+ minions with "Rise!") sic every minion they have on a spell-breaker. At some point, the spell-breaker will use full-counter (he can stow/draw weapon to bait out dodes). Out of 10 FCs, see how many the reaper can dodge reflexively. Dodges when FC is not used count as fails. > > > 4. Have a revenant use Unrelenting Assault. Count 4 strikes, and use FC on the fifth strike. Have the revenant try to dodge to avoid FC as soon as UR ends. Rev can even try this with quickness on. > > > > 1. You'll eat an attack that does similar damage to what you were trying to do to the warrior. Fun facts: Your basi venom will go right through FC, you can also attack from stealth, you can use your shortbow to plink the SB to nothing, you have control over the engagement (class feature of the thief through ports, stealth, and mobility). > > > > 2. Have been doing it all week, tearing up Spellbreakers in 1vx and xvx scenarios. Even if I eat an FC, it's less dangerous than other stuff flying around *even from the SB*; though others as well. > > > > 3. Then the minionmancer should be staying 300 units away if possible, but know that it will eat a hit that is less than many of the others he'll also eat (if he can't dodge it). > > > > 4. Your concern is that a powerful rev skill is being counterplayed using a powerful war skill? > > > > Is the expectation that nobody should ever eat an FC? Because the damage isn't *that* high even if you do, but there are still counterplay options so that you don't. > > My bad, I should have been more explicit. > > These scenarios are meant to demonstrate that full-counter comes out far too fast for someone to react to reflexively, and should thus have its activation time increased. By this, I mean the time in between when you "block" an attack and when the counter-strike goes out should be increased to around 0.75s. Gotcha. Even still, you're assuming perfect timing on the SB's part to deny someone a chance to dodge, in which case, the SB probably deserves the hit. What seems to be far more typical, in my experience anyway, is the warrior will use FC earlier than a millisecond before incoming damage and often just as a normal block. In both cases, I find it relatively easy to see the animation and to act accordingly (wait it out if I also need the break, or tap it and dodge if I don't). In group fights, I just keep an eye on the SB and who else is hitting him, but it's less of a concern than Arc Divider or Gunflame from HoT, or True Shot from a DH, or Rapid Fire from a glass Soulbeast, etc, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcaedus.7290 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 > @Choppy.4183 said: > Gotcha. Even still, you're assuming perfect timing on the SB's part to deny someone a chance to dodge, in which case, the SB probably deserves the hit. What seems to be far more typical, in my experience anyway, is the warrior will use FC earlier than a millisecond before incoming damage and often just as a normal block. In both cases, I find it relatively easy to see the animation and to act accordingly (wait it out if I also need the break, or tap it and dodge if I don't). > > In group fights, I just keep an eye on the SB and who else is hitting him, but it's less of a concern than Arc Divider or Gunflame from HoT, or True Shot from a DH, or Rapid Fire from a glass Soulbeast, etc, etc. Oh I'd agree mostly. What I found was that if a spellbreaker was facerolling and just using FC on cooldown it was very easy to avoid. If they just used it preemptively then yeah, I could easily stow weapon or trigger the block and easily dodge before taking the counterstrike. BUT, against someone who knows this and has some experience (which is starting to be the case now that it's been out for >1 week), I find that they won't use FC until they know I'm forced into a burst or have thrown down some aoe field. In 1v1, I usually try baiting this out by trading quick blows (auto attack chains/2 hit comboes) and placing down fields + stowing weapon so I can immediately dodge when I see the animation but a smart spellbreaker doesn't fall for it and can out-trade me which forces me into an eventual burst/placingdown a field/etc. It's fine though, 1v1 is not my concern. However, it is particularly bad in 2v2 and up where there is no way to avoid having some sort of aoe field down. I played in a tournament a couple nights ago and specifically watched a spellbreaker at mid (it was either 3v3 or 4v4). I found I could only avoid about half of his fullcounters and the half I did avoid was mostly by staying far out of range or due to a fortuitous dodge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ugrakarma.9416 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 > @Mutaatti.2789 said: > > @Mikeskies.1536 said: > > > @Mutaatti.2789 said: > > > > @Mikeskies.1536 said: > > > > > @Mutaatti.2789 said: > > > > > > @Hitman.5829 said: > > > > > > People need to stop whining and learn to play! Full counter is perfectly fine; in the worst case scenario, full counter is a useless skill when fighting 1 vs 1 or range individuals (which is most of them). Full counter is finally the skill that warrior needed for WvW and PvP. Stop complaining because you are getting owned and learn to play! > > > > > > > > > > > > One can make the argument that full counter is a mediocre skill on 1 vs 1 because of this: > > > > > > 1. - It activates only if you attack the warrior, and the animation is extremely obvious. > > > > > > 2. If the warrior has quickness, then the skill has a cast time of 1/2 the time. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, what i have noticed in PvE is that the mobs have very slow attack reaction times that full counter is often missed because they simply don't hit the kitten skill. > > > > > > Be patient and don't spam your kitten skills like a zombie 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,f1,f2,f3,f4,f5. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a learn to play issue and not a balance issue! > > > > > > > > > > > > I have fought many spell-breakers and I know when they will be using their full counter so I simply walk away because they cannot attack me while they are using full counter. Use your brain, learn to play, and stop whining because you are getting owned for spamming your skills like a zombie! > > > > > > > > > > Well please tell me then if you know, how to not trigger FC as a mesmer? Or ranger? Or minionmaster necro? Or symbol guardian? Ihave not seen any advice how to 1v1 spellbreaker as any of these classes. > > > > > > > > Full Counter is a mechanic, just like any other mechanic. How do I avoid getting shattered by a memser? Or nuked at range by a ranger? Or getting condi-bombed by a necro? Or getting pulled into guardian traps? > > > > > > Lol. You didn't answer my question. Afraid of telling people how to crush your class? Or afraid to tell everyone it's impossible? Everyone knows how to counter those classes. I'm asking how to counter spellbreaker if you play any of classes you adressed. > > > > How to counter Full Counter: > > > > 1. Attack Full Counter from out of range. > > 2. Attack Full Counter then Evade or Block or go Immune. > > 3. Wait out Full Counter, then attack. > > 4. Attack Full Counter and get hit by it, but don't cast so the Daze doesn't interrupt you. > > > > If Full Counter doesn't hit, Spellbreaker gets no benefits. > > But mesmer illusions can proc FC, ranger pet can do it if not careful, necro minions and guardian symbols can proc it. And you can dodge. 2 times. How about third time, when you dont have dodge? Because you cant kill good SB in less than 24 secs. Or even mediocre. its a fair payment, Warrior dont have so much gimmicks or tricks, just pure melee. These gimmicks is designed to be used at mid range, when i was playing minion necro. Minions is to proc symbols, FC, illusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitizenKing.4912 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 People who complain about full counter are the same people who stood in the fire during WoW PvE. Don't trigger it, and if there are AOE nearby, prepare to dodge. Congrats, you're now freaking fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crinn.7864 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 > @Mikeskies.1536 said: > > @Mutaatti.2789 said: > > > @Mikeskies.1536 said: > > > > @Mutaatti.2789 said: > > > > > @Hitman.5829 said: > > > > > People need to stop whining and learn to play! Full counter is perfectly fine; in the worst case scenario, full counter is a useless skill when fighting 1 vs 1 or range individuals (which is most of them). Full counter is finally the skill that warrior needed for WvW and PvP. Stop complaining because you are getting owned and learn to play! > > > > > > > > > > One can make the argument that full counter is a mediocre skill on 1 vs 1 because of this: > > > > > 1. - It activates only if you attack the warrior, and the animation is extremely obvious. > > > > > 2. If the warrior has quickness, then the skill has a cast time of 1/2 the time. > > > > > > > > > > Now, what i have noticed in PvE is that the mobs have very slow attack reaction times that full counter is often missed because they simply don't hit the kitten skill. > > > > > Be patient and don't spam your kitten skills like a zombie 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,f1,f2,f3,f4,f5. > > > > > > > > > > This is a learn to play issue and not a balance issue! > > > > > > > > > > I have fought many spell-breakers and I know when they will be using their full counter so I simply walk away because they cannot attack me while they are using full counter. Use your brain, learn to play, and stop whining because you are getting owned for spamming your skills like a zombie! > > > > > > > > Well please tell me then if you know, how to not trigger FC as a mesmer? Or ranger? Or minionmaster necro? Or symbol guardian? Ihave not seen any advice how to 1v1 spellbreaker as any of these classes. > > > > > > Full Counter is a mechanic, just like any other mechanic. How do I avoid getting shattered by a memser? Or nuked at range by a ranger? Or getting condi-bombed by a necro? Or getting pulled into guardian traps? > > > > Lol. You didn't answer my question. Afraid of telling people how to crush your class? Or afraid to tell everyone it's impossible? Everyone knows how to counter those classes. I'm asking how to counter spellbreaker if you play any of classes you adressed. > > How to counter Full Counter: > > 1. Attack Full Counter from out of range. > 2. Attack Full Counter then Evade or Block or go Immune. > 3. Wait out Full Counter, then attack. > 4. Attack Full Counter and get hit by it, but don't cast so the Daze doesn't interrupt you. > > If Full Counter doesn't hit, Spellbreaker gets no benefits. Technically you can also interrupt Full Counter without triggering it by using necromancer's [Corrupt Boon] skill to convert the warrior's stability into fear and thus breaking the cast. [Corrupt Boon] doesn't have a strike component which is why it doesn't trigger Full Counter. Note this only works with [Corrupt Boon] and not other boonhate skills because all other boonhate skill have a strike component to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcaedus.7290 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 FC also needs increased startup time between the block component and the counter-strike. As is right now, the counter-strike comes out 0.25s after blocking a hit which is faster than human reflex time. A good spellbreaker can essentially guarantee FC to hit 100% of the time by merely using it whilst another incoming attack is frames from impact. 0.5s startup would be fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWI.4127 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 > @Arcaedus.7290 said: > FC also needs increased startup time between the block component and the counter-strike. As is right now, the counter-strike comes out 0.25s after blocking a hit which is faster than human reflex time. A good spellbreaker can essentially guarantee FC to hit 100% of the time by merely using it whilst another incoming attack is frames from impact. > > 0.5s startup would be fair. A "good spellbreaker" can counter attacks frame-perfect 100% of the time, leaving you no time to react? Sounds like it takes a really skilled player to do that. And with that said, shouldn't a skilled player with amazing timing be able to use this move and land it? In terms of the "average player", most of the time you are going to see the gold shard things for a split-second before the counter animation goes off. That's why people are replying to you that they can react to it. Ideally you'd also be thinking ahead like "is this Warrior about to counter me?" and expect the counter, thus being able to react quicker. I'm not saying there are no problems with FC, but I think your "faster than human reaction time" argument is flawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcaedus.7290 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 > @SWI.4127 said: > > @Arcaedus.7290 said: > > FC also needs increased startup time between the block component and the counter-strike. As is right now, the counter-strike comes out 0.25s after blocking a hit which is faster than human reflex time. A good spellbreaker can essentially guarantee FC to hit 100% of the time by merely using it whilst another incoming attack is frames from impact. > > > > 0.5s startup would be fair. > > A "good spellbreaker" can counter attacks frame-perfect 100% of the time, leaving you no time to react? Sounds like it takes a really skilled player to do that. And with that said, shouldn't a skilled player with amazing timing be able to use this move and land it? In terms of the "average player", most of the time you are going to see the gold shard things for a split-second before the counter animation goes off. That's why people are replying to you that they can react to it. Ideally you'd also be thinking ahead like "is this Warrior about to counter me?" and expect the counter, thus being able to react quicker. > > I'm not saying there are no problems with FC, but I think your "faster than human reaction time" argument is flawed. Good timing deserves a reward but as it stands, your "reward" is far too generous considering everything FC does as well its cool down. That average player argument doesn't hold up too well either. That's behavior I observe from those completely new to the class. Even average players who put in more than half a dozen hours can learn pretty quick that they can trigger FC by staying in the fray or on/in aoe fields and at this point, so long as they're not facerolling, they can essentially choose when to receive their guaranteed FC strike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWI.4127 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 So what's the main issue, in your opinion. The benefits the warrior gets from landing it, or the speed at which the attack comes out? I can admit that Revenge Counter probably needs some tweaks as it is super strong. Maybe fewer conditions copied or moving the bonus damage to another trait. But I do like the speed at which the counter goes off. Counters are supposed to be quick strikes, that's the whole point of them. I also think lots of people are complaining about specifics regarding this skill but not looking at the bigger picture when it comes to the game as a whole. There is so much freaking condition spam and AoE spam in this game, and many of the complaints are about the fact that a warrior can finally use some of it to their advantage. I think we have all just gotten used to how the game is at this point, it's easy to forget. Obviously it's more practical to ask them to balance 1 skill rather than rebalance a bunch of the spammy stuff, but it's just frustrating to deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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