Full counter balance

[Bish.8627]

I don't main a warrior, and even I am sick of the salt. All these "I played a warrior for 5 minutes and killed a zerg" and "my warrior can solo tequatl" posts are a bit fishy. Entire novels trying too hard to convince they jumped on alts and won outnumbered duels in minutes are sad really. If they influence a nerf on a balanced and fun profession, I'd say they should be ashamed. Let these warriors have their day in the sun.

[kiranslee.4829]

PvP vise, those who play chronos or DDs in pvp or (especially) wvw roaming , and losing to SB, comes from one and one reason only, u r doing it wrong son.

But in case anyone wish to nerf war as it is , pls do so but change sword auto attack into Sohothin's Bite and we can still be friends.

PS.

Dagger on war is so frikken ugly !

[Turk.5460]

> @Oglaf.1074 said:

> > @Ezrael.6859 said:

> > So making Full Counter only deal raw damage and not be able to land critical hits is probably the only sensible balance solutiom

>

> Ahahaha. How about no? That's just silly to the extreme.

 

Hi.

-Sincerely "Mug" trait. Single target.

[Turk.5460]

> @Arcaedus.7290 said:

> * 4-5k crit

 

Rookienumbers.jpg

[Loading.4503]

Not gonna go into saying it op or not op but earlier today I was defending a tower today just going in and out of the portal doing full counters nonstop doing 5-10k hits dowing people nonstop.

 

Imma just say lol

[UrMom.4205]

Question for the SB mains cause i'm slightly confused, is FC an aoe or does it hit the attacker from range? The tool tip says counterattack all foes around you (300 range). So if I use a 1200 range skill against FC does it interrupt me and do all the other stuff (condi copy, etc.)

[Crossaber.8934]

> @UrMom.4205 said:

> Question for the SB mains cause i'm slightly confused, is FC an aoe or does it hit the attacker from range? The tool tip says counterattack all foes around you (300 range). So if I use a 1200 range skill against FC does it interrupt me and do all the other stuff (condi copy, etc.)

 

like you said, it only hit 5 targets that within 300 range of the spellbreaker, using 400+ ranged attack can safely trigger full counter without harm.

[UrMom.4205]

> @Crossaber.8934 said:

> > @UrMom.4205 said:

> > Question for the SB mains cause i'm slightly confused, is FC an aoe or does it hit the attacker from range? The tool tip says counterattack all foes around you (300 range). So if I use a 1200 range skill against FC does it interrupt me and do all the other stuff (condi copy, etc.)

>

> like you said, it only hit 5 targets that within 300 range of the spellbreaker, using 400+ ranged attack can safely trigger full counter without harm.

 

oh nice, so just kite out the painfully obvious animation (unless the warrior pops it on you mid attack, which makes total sense on the purpose of the skill), thanks for the info. Strong skill but i don't think it's op (sure there will be situations where it's cheesy, like running out the gate on a tower instantly popping it and stuff) just gotta do research on the skill and practice against it.

[Crossaber.8934]

> @UrMom.4205 said:

> > @Crossaber.8934 said:

> > > @UrMom.4205 said:

> > > Question for the SB mains cause i'm slightly confused, is FC an aoe or does it hit the attacker from range? The tool tip says counterattack all foes around you (300 range). So if I use a 1200 range skill against FC does it interrupt me and do all the other stuff (condi copy, etc.)

> >

> > like you said, it only hit 5 targets that within 300 range of the spellbreaker, using 400+ ranged attack can safely trigger full counter without harm.

>

> oh nice, so just kite out the painfully obvious animation (unless the warrior pops it on you mid attack, which makes total sense on the purpose of the skill), thanks for the info. Strong skill but i don't think it's op (sure there will be situations where it's cheesy, like running out the gate on a tower instantly popping it and stuff) just gotta do research on the skill and practice against it.

 

It extremely over power to players that mindlessly spam attack into spellbreaker's face, otherwise killing a spellbreaker with just old faction typical kite warrior to death kind of tactics is kind of effective.

[xDudisx.5914]

In wvw even in medium sized fights there are dozens of aoes, cleaves, pets, clones, etc. Not only it make hard to pay attention to 1 guy casting a low cd skill in the middle of the zerg, but it is impossible to everyone stop hitting. It is guarantee to proc the skill. WvW rarely has 1v1 fights.

[Choppy.4183]

> @xDudisx.5914 said:

> In wvw even in medium sized fights there are dozens of aoes, cleaves, pets, clones, etc. Not only it make hard to pay attention to 1 guy casting a low cd skill in the middle of the zerg, but it is impossible to everyone stop hitting. It is guarantee to proc the skill. WvW rarely has 1v1 fights.

 

Try focusing your ranged allies on the spellbreaker and don't all cluster around it. It's really not that hard.

[Caedmon.6798]

> @Mutaatti.2789 said:

> > @Choppy.4183 said:

> > > @RabbitUp.8294 said:

> > > It doesn't take skill to step on a symbol or random aoe and hit Full Counter. You people act like it's a huge mind game, when the deck is stacked in SB's favour.

> > >

> > > Or use it right before an attack connects. It's an instant cast.

> > >

> > > > @Mikeskies.1536 said:

> > > > All classes have abilities to evade. You have to make a choice on what you want to evade and what you want to eat. It's the same for every spec. I don't know what to tell you.

> > >

> > > Guardian and Necro have no evades.

> >

> > First, every class in the game has evades... they're called dodges. Second, you're missing the point, which is that highly skilled Spellbreakers will time their Full Counters so their opponents have almost no opportunity to prevent the trigger *and* avoid the consequences (still doesn't make them OP). If a Spellbreaker uses Full Counter, steps on a symbol to trigger it and you don't use a dodge to avoid it, then you have nobody to blame but yourself.

> >

> > You know how people have had to dodge your True Shot the last few years? Yeah, same thing here. They're both telegraphed skills that do the same damage and you're best off avoiding them.

> >

> > > @Mutaatti.2789 said:

> > > Hahahaha! Havent met any player yet mid plat who could dodge/stow every FC against SB. :D "dont trigger it!" yeh well mesmer illusion triggered it... "Well dodge!" yeah, did that already twice. Dont have endurance anymore, and illusions keep still triggering it. Cant run away because not fast enough.

> > >

> > > Now what? I know no one will answer this, because no one can give answer how to deal with FC except just eating it and letting SB to heal himself.

> >

> > Well, if you're a mesmer, you also have additional evades and invulns, and you also have ports and stealth (to help you keep range). Beyond that, your expectation shouldn't be that you're able to avoid *every* FC. You're going to get hit with some skills, the trick is avoiding enough from your opponent and landing enough of yours to win the fight, not to come out unscathed.

>

> Ehm... I was referring to as a 2v1 situation where lets say guard and mesmer vs spellbreaker. Mesmer keeps triggering FC and guard eats up dmg and procs heal to SB.

>

> Or lets say u are ranger/druid/Soulbeast. Atm you have only one trick against them and thats broken pet which can oneshot them. Other than that? Run. Just run and if enemy has 2 spellbreakers and you can't play other class just forfeit. Druid cant bunker point against SB and soulbeast/ranger doesnt do enough dmg to kill.

>

> And Adrenal Health works for 15 secs once proc, so spellbreaker needs to land only every third FC or burst.

 

We need to land 3 Bursts to get the same effect as Core landing One burst,get your facts straight.

 

@xDudisx.5914 , are you seriously complaining about counter in zerg fights ? You name all the aoe spamm but counter is the thing to complain about...wow.

[dusanyu.4057]

Tldr of this thread. Warriors have something nice we must break it.

[Solori.6025]

> @Mutaatti.2789 said:

> > @Mikeskies.1536 said:

> > > @Mutaatti.2789 said:

> > > > @Mikeskies.1536 said:

> > > > > @Mutaatti.2789 said:

> > > > > > @Mikeskies.1536 said:

> > > > > > > @Mutaatti.2789 said:

> > > > > > > > @Hitman.5829 said:

> > > > > > > > People need to stop whining and learn to play! Full counter is perfectly fine; in the worst case scenario, full counter is a useless skill when fighting 1 vs 1 or range individuals (which is most of them). Full counter is finally the skill that warrior needed for WvW and PvP. Stop complaining because you are getting owned and learn to play!

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > One can make the argument that full counter is a mediocre skill on 1 vs 1 because of this:

> > > > > > > > 1. - It activates only if you attack the warrior, and the animation is extremely obvious.

> > > > > > > > 2. If the warrior has quickness, then the skill has a cast time of 1/2 the time.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Now, what i have noticed in PvE is that the mobs have very slow attack reaction times that full counter is often missed because they simply don't hit the kitten skill.

> > > > > > > > Be patient and don't spam your kitten skills like a zombie 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,f1,f2,f3,f4,f5.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This is a learn to play issue and not a balance issue!

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I have fought many spell-breakers and I know when they will be using their full counter so I simply walk away because they cannot attack me while they are using full counter. Use your brain, learn to play, and stop whining because you are getting owned for spamming your skills like a zombie!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Well please tell me then if you know, how to not trigger FC as a mesmer? Or ranger? Or minionmaster necro? Or symbol guardian? Ihave not seen any advice how to 1v1 spellbreaker as any of these classes.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Full Counter is a mechanic, just like any other mechanic. How do I avoid getting shattered by a memser? Or nuked at range by a ranger? Or getting condi-bombed by a necro? Or getting pulled into guardian traps?

> > > > >

> > > > > Lol. You didn't answer my question. Afraid of telling people how to crush your class? Or afraid to tell everyone it's impossible? Everyone knows how to counter those classes. I'm asking how to counter spellbreaker if you play any of classes you adressed.

> > > >

> > > > How to counter Full Counter:

> > > >

> > > > 1. Attack Full Counter from out of range.

> > > > 2. Attack Full Counter then Evade or Block or go Immune.

> > > > 3. Wait out Full Counter, then attack.

> > > > 4. Attack Full Counter and get hit by it, but don't cast so the Daze doesn't interrupt you.

> > > >

> > > > If Full Counter doesn't hit, Spellbreaker gets no benefits.

> > >

> > > But mesmer illusions can proc FC, ranger pet can do it if not careful, necro minions and guardian symbols can proc it. And you can dodge. 2 times. How about third time, when you dont have dodge? Because you cant kill good SB in less than 24 secs. Or even mediocre.

> >

> > **But mesmer illusions can proc FC, ranger pet can do it if not careful, necro minions and guardian symbols can proc it. ** You can use all those to your advantage to proc Full Counter when you are not in range, or realize Full Counter is coming and evade or get out of range with a movement skill.

> >

> > All classes have abilities to evade. You have to make a choice on what you want to evade and what you want to eat. It's the same for every spec. I don't know what to tell you.

> >

> > I dumpster on other Spellbreakers all the time, killing them in less than 24 seconds.

>

> Well... Except all of them doesnt work

> .. Like ranger sword #2... It hits, starts animation to evade, gets interrupted. Some are too fast. Like ranger dagger #4. It rolls so fast around spellbreaker and evade isnt long enough to dodge FC... And no. You CAN'T get out of range against warrior closer than 1000. Okay mesmer can if he has portal ready. Or you run away. That aint no kiting. Thats surrendering.

 

This is utterly false,

A mesmer has many ways to get out of range of a warrior and actually has an easier time proccing FC at range since you can force detargat and camp out away from your clones

A mesmer has

BLink

Illusionary ambush

stealth

distortion

mirage thrust

blurred frenzy

jaunt

 

and for the querky people running Axe

axes of symmetry

in 1v1, a mirage has a decent skill set to deal with a spellbreaker, it becomes a game of who outplays who.

The problem becomes when you are 2 v 1 and their are two spell breakers, though 2 v 1 against any competent player should result in your loss

You may also want to look up some of the mesmers on twitch and watch them play mirage as well.

 

[Shafi.8952]

How about full counter returns the exact damage from the hit it blocked. Nothing less, nothing more.

[Choppy.4183]

> @Shafi.8952 said:

> How about full counter returns the exact damage from the hit it blocked. Nothing less, nothing more.

 

To anyone in range? I predict some salty enemies if the FC blocked a full malice Death's Judgement. =)

 

But yeah, that would be a serious damage nerf considering how many times a clone, auto, hit from a low damage condi spec, or attack within a multi-attack skill would be popping the FC bubble. Frankly, it would probably be a death blow to the spec.

[Mikeskies.1536]

They are going to slightly nerf its range and Revenge Counter.

[SWI.4127]

> @Choppy.4183 said:

> But yeah, that would be a serious damage nerf considering how many times a clone, auto, hit from a low damage condi spec, or attack within a multi-attack skill would be popping the FC bubble. Frankly, it would probably be a death blow to the spec.

 

Hah yeah I was just imagining having FC procced on a mesmer illusion and countering with not even enough damage to kill the illusion.

[Obindo.6802]

> @Shafi.8952 said:

> How about full counter returns the exact damage from the hit it blocked. Nothing less, nothing more.

 

This, reflect condis from that one attack as well. Rather a set (low number) dmg + x % of the attack

[Alchimist.4738]

> @Mikeskies.1536 said:

> Spellbreaker only has 2 adrenaline bars... And it's not broken. People just need to get used to playing around it.

 

It’s a sweat thing to say don’t attack while the Full Counter is active, but if I used an AoE just before the Spellbreaker uses its Full Counter, then I’ll have no control over the situation, same if you’re using a pet or minions, try to tell them not to attack just for fun.

 

_Edit: And of course your teammates can always trigger it from range, and then if you’re the one in close combat you’ll get screwed._

 

Then you’ve the fact that Full Counter once trait-ed does absolutely too many things, at least too many for an 8 seconds cooldown. It absorbs one attack, even unblockable ones, then gives evasion frames for ½ second, it dazes up to 5 players while dealing decent damage, it’s also unblockable, and gives stability, and this is without having any traits to enhance it. Because then you have Attacker’s Insight refreshing burst skills, Guard Counter granting 3 seconds of protection, Slow Counter applying 3 seconds slow and cripple, and Revenge Counter granting 2 seconds of resistance, increasing damage by 20%, and copying 5 conditions, I’m sorry but this is ridiculous.

 

Full Counter is both a strong defensive and offensive ability, with a 8 seconds cooldown, and this is why it’s completely broken.

 

[Choppy.4183]

> @Alchimist.4738 said:

> It’s a sweat thing to say don’t attack while the Full Counter is active, but if I used an AoE just before the Spellbreaker uses its Full Counter, then I’ll have no control over the situation, same if you’re using a pet or minions, try to tell them not to attack just for fun.

 

Yeah you do, you dodge. I do it all the time, whether I've decided to pop an opponent's FC, I do it accidentally, or a minion/ally does it. If you're paying attention, it's not that hard. If you have additional evades or ports, then you have even more tools to work with. And, in case you're wondering, I don't play Spellbreaker myself.

 

If you fail to dodge, then you're going to eat a mid-high level hit that's not at the top of what's flying around out there. Unless the Spellbreaker is loaded with condis and traited to copy them back on you, in which case, try harder to dodge next time if you can't keep FC from getting triggered.

[stone cold.8609]

As a PvE only player I can't comment on whether or not full counter is OP in WvW or PvP. It is ok in PvE and is not too strong there at all.

 

For what it's worth, I remember when the forum considered stun +100 blades OP when the game first came out and it didn't take long for players to figure out how to cope with it. This will be the same. Hopefully, every spec has something that they are strong at. Otherwise, what's the point of having them in the game?

[dusanyu.4057]

> @"stone cold.8609" said:

> As a PvE only player I can't comment on whether or not full counter is OP in WvW or PvP. It is ok in PvE and is not too strong there at all.

if you time it right Full counter is great in PvE there was many times i Gave Balthazar "the business" using it the Counter and interrupt style of Spell breaker is a Joy in Pve and is the most fun i have playing this game in ages i hopw anet leaves the Spellbreaker intact and ignores the QQs

[Lucentfir.7430]

I think what's going to end up happening to Full Counter is they're going to increase the CD on it, either by nerfing the Burst Skill cooldown reduction from Discipline, or outright nerf to the base CD of Full Counter. Along with that, making it 5 target cap to 3 target cap, and nerfing the damage boost from Revenge Counter from 20% to 15%. Along with that Last stand getting a stab pulse nerf.

[Caedmon.6798]

> @Solori.6025 said:

> > @Mutaatti.2789 said:

> > > @Mikeskies.1536 said:

> > > > @Mutaatti.2789 said:

> > > > > @Mikeskies.1536 said:

> > > > > > @Mutaatti.2789 said:

> > > > > > > @Mikeskies.1536 said:

> > > > > > > > @Mutaatti.2789 said:

> > > > > > > > > @Hitman.5829 said:

> > > > > > > > > People need to stop whining and learn to play! Full counter is perfectly fine; in the worst case scenario, full counter is a useless skill when fighting 1 vs 1 or range individuals (which is most of them). Full counter is finally the skill that warrior needed for WvW and PvP. Stop complaining because you are getting owned and learn to play!

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > One can make the argument that full counter is a mediocre skill on 1 vs 1 because of this:

> > > > > > > > > 1. - It activates only if you attack the warrior, and the animation is extremely obvious.

> > > > > > > > > 2. If the warrior has quickness, then the skill has a cast time of 1/2 the time.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Now, what i have noticed in PvE is that the mobs have very slow attack reaction times that full counter is often missed because they simply don't hit the kitten skill.

> > > > > > > > > Be patient and don't spam your kitten skills like a zombie 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,f1,f2,f3,f4,f5.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > This is a learn to play issue and not a balance issue!

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I have fought many spell-breakers and I know when they will be using their full counter so I simply walk away because they cannot attack me while they are using full counter. Use your brain, learn to play, and stop whining because you are getting owned for spamming your skills like a zombie!

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Well please tell me then if you know, how to not trigger FC as a mesmer? Or ranger? Or minionmaster necro? Or symbol guardian? Ihave not seen any advice how to 1v1 spellbreaker as any of these classes.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Full Counter is a mechanic, just like any other mechanic. How do I avoid getting shattered by a memser? Or nuked at range by a ranger? Or getting condi-bombed by a necro? Or getting pulled into guardian traps?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Lol. You didn't answer my question. Afraid of telling people how to crush your class? Or afraid to tell everyone it's impossible? Everyone knows how to counter those classes. I'm asking how to counter spellbreaker if you play any of classes you adressed.

> > > > >

> > > > > How to counter Full Counter:

> > > > >

> > > > > 1. Attack Full Counter from out of range.

> > > > > 2. Attack Full Counter then Evade or Block or go Immune.

> > > > > 3. Wait out Full Counter, then attack.

> > > > > 4. Attack Full Counter and get hit by it, but don't cast so the Daze doesn't interrupt you.

> > > > >

> > > > > If Full Counter doesn't hit, Spellbreaker gets no benefits.

> > > >

> > > > But mesmer illusions can proc FC, ranger pet can do it if not careful, necro minions and guardian symbols can proc it. And you can dodge. 2 times. How about third time, when you dont have dodge? Because you cant kill good SB in less than 24 secs. Or even mediocre.

> > >

> > > **But mesmer illusions can proc FC, ranger pet can do it if not careful, necro minions and guardian symbols can proc it. ** You can use all those to your advantage to proc Full Counter when you are not in range, or realize Full Counter is coming and evade or get out of range with a movement skill.

> > >

> > > All classes have abilities to evade. You have to make a choice on what you want to evade and what you want to eat. It's the same for every spec. I don't know what to tell you.

> > >

> > > I dumpster on other Spellbreakers all the time, killing them in less than 24 seconds.

> >

> > Well... Except all of them doesnt work

> > .. Like ranger sword #2... It hits, starts animation to evade, gets interrupted. Some are too fast. Like ranger dagger #4. It rolls so fast around spellbreaker and evade isnt long enough to dodge FC... And no. You CAN'T get out of range against warrior closer than 1000. Okay mesmer can if he has portal ready. Or you run away. That aint no kiting. Thats surrendering.

>

> This is utterly false,

> A mesmer has many ways to get out of range of a warrior and actually has an easier time proccing FC at range since you can force detargat and camp out away from your clones

> A mesmer has

> BLink

> Illusionary ambush

> stealth

> distortion

> mirage thrust

> blurred frenzy

> jaunt

>

> and for the querky people running Axe

> axes of symmetry

> in 1v1, a mirage has a decent skill set to deal with a spellbreaker, it becomes a game of who outplays who.

> The problem becomes when you are 2 v 1 and their are two spell breakers, though 2 v 1 against any competent player should result in your loss

> You may also want to look up some of the mesmers on twitch and watch them play mirage as well.

>

 

This ^ My mesm buddy is perfectly able to outbait my counter and make proper use of his invulns/evade/porting to outkite me and ignore counter,the only time counter does hit is mostly because of an illusion activating it.