Why majority of WvW players stopped giving feedback.

[TheBravery.9615]

> @"Zero.3871" said:

> a dev showed up in wvw subforum? :open_mouth:

> is it my Birthday?

 

Gaile is not a developer

[Antigravity.4083]

I haven't read alot of this thread, and I don't post very often in the forums - but: not very long ago I remember making an off-hand comment about WvW to my boyfriend while we were talking about various legendary weapons and armor. I was looking through the server pops and, maybe dumbly, recognized for the first time that WvW success seems to have to do with the server population based on my own maybe flawed and probably limited perception.

 

This is for the devs I guess (specifically because I've heard on good authority that they read this) and that's because I'm sure there are more than a few WvW enthusiasts who will take what I've said already and what I'm about to say and cut it into bite sized pieces, or more likely ignore it. Oh well, I like WvW, I'm terrible at it but it's really fun for me, so my thoughts continue:

 

At first, I remember saying something about how low pop servers should be matched with the same. No, too simple and instantly broken probably somehow. Then I thought just a moment ago, how about linking low pop servers with a stable per cent participation in WvW together, to match better with higher pop? Well, maybe but something about that idea seems too volatile to me, too chaotic. Now, minutes into my intense thought process, I wonder if it would be worth anything to "simplify" critical modifiers like tactivation and reinforcement tiers and break large pre-made combat units from being permanently associated with any given world into more of a freelance "work of the day" type arrangement. If it's easy it's not fun; if it's fun it's not easy BUT... those two statements are only true along a progression that starts out as an empty pot and winds up with a lovely stone soup. I'm being vague because I don't really know what I'm talking about; I'm hoping you do though somehow :) ...to each his own.

 

I have gear I like, I tinker with my build endlessly and sometimes get a winner - just lately someone in pretty neat pvp gear whispered me about my build due to a savage wrecking I delivered, twice, despite being nearly completely clueless in pvp - and I have a lot of fun in WvW. I have fun because it's fun to be part of a zerg, to chase across the map to points that seem important to attack, hold or harass and to meet in epic running engagements with other zergs upon the open plains. What's not fun is being vaguely impressed with the feeling that my server is terrible in WvW, that other servers are the best and might as well hang up their belts or capes or whatever or that somehow, even though I like to try my best and fight as hard as I can and be a good little soldier, all my contribution is in the end for nothing or is doomed to be shamed by some Great Armament appearing on the horizon from seemingly another time or world. Anyway, I like WvW, I like this game and so here I am in the forum voicing my thoughts, as is the right of all in this day and age. Also happy new year to anyone I haven't told that to yet. Cheers!

 

P.S. Ar Pharazon was the king who sent the Great Armament to assail the uttermost West, should you be trying to remember the name.

[Randulf.7614]

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> > @"kins.3294" said:

> > > @"Zero.3871" said:

> > > a dev showed up in wvw subforum? :open_mouth:

> > > is it my Birthday?

> >

> > Uhhh, no. They just came in to tell us to stop crying and went back to ignoring the game mode.

>

> No, no, that truly is not what I wanted to say. I didn't even want to hint that!

>

> I have some insight into the studio and the team. That's why I feel I should tell you that WvW is not being abandoned, WvW players are not being ignored -- that's my honest assessment of the situation. I know it's sometimes hard to be patient, and @"Diku.2546" I totally understand the request, even like the idea of giving timeframes, but the company believes that doing that causes more problems than it helps. In an ideal world, we could say "We'll probably do this Q1 2019" and people would know that it's likely but not promised. But a certain number of people believe any form of a "about" or "probably" or "we're hoping" timeframe is an absolute, rock-solid immutable commitment or promise.

>

> Think back, and I bet you can remember threads -- and believe me, *I* do ;) -- where a team member tried to provide a probable, anticipated, or hoped-for timeframe and, when for one of a dozen very good reasons -- from technical issues to the decision to do something even better than initially planned -- that timeframe slipped. Most people are understanding, but there are some who meet that sort of change in plans with comments like, "You promised this thing and it's not here" and even "You **lied** to us!"

>

> We like to under-promise and over-deliver. I hope that things we do in the future help convince you of that.

 

You cant stop people finding an excuse to moan, whinge and whine though. Id rather hear all about what is going on and potentially might be released, even if delayed or cancelled than hear nothing and thus expect nothing. I remember those threads and those people were a loud minority versus those of us who appreciated the communications. Those crying “liar” should not dictate to you or spoil it for us. They should never have been allowed to win out because they were often just looking for any excuse to attack regardless to what it was.

 

I know people will cry “liars”, but equally more ppl will prob cry “neglect”. Id rather rather Anet took a more positive and proactive approach and celebrated what they are working on (not story stuff obviously) and just ignore those who cry “liar”.

 

I like GW2 and I like Anet, but this is the one game and studio i can never get excited about the future for because we arent given reasons to look forward to much because the studio doesnt talk until after the ship (which you generally are at least very good at doing)and that feels unhealthy to me. Surprises are always great, but not when everything is one.

 

I cant make you change your mind, i just hope Anet will become a little less secretive one day.

[Kovu.7560]

> @"dynomite.5834" said:

> Gaile,

>

> I remember well when the Devs used to give estimates, miss it by a week and the forum posters would crucify them. I like what one of the other posters here mentioned - just give some updates; no delivery dates, just updates

 

Or even simple acknowledgement of the many long discussed points being recognized by the development team.

 

"Hey, that's a good idea, we'll consider looking into it."

"Unfortunately due to ________ its unlikely we could implement such a change/mechanic."

 

People post some really good ideas here, and most of it is discussed by the populace, then forgotten about.

 

One pinned post by the development brass per calendar season saying "hey we're still working on the thing, here are a few new things you can expect, you know, when its ready" (often with no follow-ups) with few actual substantial updates has left a lot of people rocking back and fourth in their chairs in anticipation for a very, very long time. Anticipation that often turns to angst and impatience compounded by those long months of radio silence. (That's NOT to say things should be rushed, just that a bit of chatter on the forum _would help_.)

 

It may all be in our heads, but I can't really blame the people who feel like this gamemode is the black sheep of GW2.

 

~ Kovu

[Jski.6180]

There a real lack of back and forward devs may read these things but reading is only part of getting feed back it needs to be a full convention or its a lot of ppl throwing ideals into the ideal bin (often jokely means of heating) not knowing what to make of "we are reading it" talk.

[Saint Sated.2698]

In my opinion, as a _seasoned customer service specialist_, that **"Under promising and over delivering"** is a absolutely detrimental to a workplace's core values. It invites a slew of unproductive habits and doesn't garner rapport when stated in front of customers. Would it not be wiser to adopt **"Meet expectations and then exceed them"** as a company value? The last episode is an example of this. You (the company) saw a plea for Diviners to come to pve. You met those expectations (wishes do come true!), and then exceed them by providing an engaging way to obtain them.

 

I don't think you (the company) under promises at all. Your fans have seen the great uniqueness of the game and can only stand to be impressed further. I think that this is a double edged sword, because raving fans have high expectations, but, if you meet them, and then exceed them, you're gaining loyalty points in a niche crowd, filling voids in their dark, dis~~content~~ed hearts. /s

[Voltekka.2375]

> @"Swamurabi.7890" said:

> I'm sorry Gaile but from my perspective, there is no difference from devs that read the WvW forums and don't post anything and devs that don't read the WvW forums. Especially when I can see evidence of devs in PvP and PvE responding to players.

>

> I have yet to see someone from the balance team on the WvW forums discussing with the players issues that the players see with builds/skills/traits that are overtuned in WvW and WvW alone.

>

> From the very earliest threads about WvW it has been clear to the players that population and coverage are the biggest factors in determining the winners in a matchup. I realize that there have been several changes implemented to try to lessen the influence of population and coverage, changes I would call minimal. It's like you didn't want to blow up the system even after you realized that the system was the problem. Alliances will blow up the system, finally.

>

> I'm sure that not many would agree with me but I would have had more respect for Anet if the devs just came out and threatened and/or forced the players to disperse to achieve a balanced WvW experience. There are many holiday PvP events where players are asked to switch sides to re-balance the match. I would also been happy if the devs, seeing that players took the initiative to start GvG, embraced it and encouraged it. Aren't there examples in GW1 and GW2 of some holiday events that were inspired by player initiatives?

>

> Even if Alliances is released I probably won't come back because I really hate grinding for armor/weapons/trinkets in PvE in order to catch up with everyone else that has characters with BiS gear.

 

You can make wvw legendary armor without stepping foot in pve. Same applies for trinkets, through the various reward tracks. Plus dungeon runes, all from reward tracks too. You dont have to grind pve at all.

[duillyn.2697]

Feedback implies input into some dynamic process. Beyond these vague pleasantries Gaile provides and a post highlighting the skeleton crew that is working on WvW, what process can anyone here note that is ongoing with WvW? Not shots, but truly, beyond 'Soon' from that other dude, what process is any of this feedback going towards?

 

Why bother.

[Diku.2546]

Reminder for those that may need it to keep this thread from being closed:

 

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/the-forums-code-of-conduct

 

Keep it clean

Keep it civil

Stay on topic

State your thoughts in a constructive manner

Be responsible

Report posts for moderator review if they violate these guidelines

 

---

 

Thread Time Stamp when Logged in & Not Logged in Do Not Match?

 

Hmm...can anybody else confirm this phenomenon?

 

Not Logged into forum - Thread Time Stamp displays - Name of Last Player to Post with the Time @1236 am

OR

Not Logged into forum - Thread Time Stamp displays - February 5, 2019 @ 635 am HST

 

Previous Last player to post displays - February 5, 2019 @ 635 am HST

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/820071/#Comment_820071

 

---

 

Logged into forum - Thread Time Stamp seems to Display yesterday's date - February 4, 2019 - No Time Listed

 

Is it my imagination...or...does anybody else notice that this thread continues to sink even when players are still trying to give feedback?

 

In any case...I'm hoping that anyone (ANet or Player) might be able to shed some light on this observed phenomenon.

 

Yours truly,

Diku

 

Credibility requires critical insight & time.

[Gaile Gray.6029]

> @"Diku.2546" said:

>

> In any case...I'm hoping that anyone (ANet or Player) might be able to shed some light on this observed phenomenon.

>

I banged my shoe against the back-end and sacrificed a skritt to the forum gods. We'll see if that corrected the issue.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> >

> > On the one hand you postulate that the value of any opinion is fundamentally subjective. At some level this casts doubt on the use of debate but that's another issue.

> >

> > On the other hand you ask us all to look at post deletions objectively. But you already stipulated that value of any feedback is subjective. Whose perspective can be considered objective then?

>

> I think I can answer this, if I understand the question. Objectivity is best achieved by those who don't have a pony in the race. Post deletions are not personal, are not targeted, are not determined by where you post, how much you play, what profession you choose, your spendings in the Gem Store, nor your astrological sign or shoe size. :) Post deletions are handled by team members who have professional training and experience in viewing each post with as much clarity and as little bias as humanly possible.

>

> Post deletions happen when people go OTT in what is supposed to be a reasonable place for conversation. Name calling, rampant insults, attacks on another member, conspiracy theories, threats of legal action -- anything listed in the [Forums Code of Conduct](https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/the-forums-code-of-conduct/ "Forums Code of Conduct") as a potential violation just shouldn't be posted. There's a *reason* we ask for people to be *reasonable* -- to support our community and their ability to have meaningful conversations.

>

> > @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> >

> > I apologize for all the whining and difficulty you guys must have trying to figure out what to do with WvW, Gaile. I can't say that I'm 100% satisfied with it's current state but I assure you not everyone is as negative and hostile as many of those you see here. And I don't believe "passionate" is a valid excuse for people only ever posting when they're angry and not when they're happy.

>

> I appreciate that! And I agree that "passionate" is misused when it's an excuse. "I verbally abused someone because I am 'passionate'" has very little -- probably zero -- validity. We forgive a lot of borderline comments because we do appreciate that people can get a little carried away with expressing themselves, but there **is** a limit, and that's why moderation happens.

>

 

Interesting defence Gaile... more interestingly though, it seems that if such posts that insult, flame or troll other posters who are engaged in trying to converse their opinion on how they feel let down by ANET in regards to WvW.. .. well such posts, like the one not too far up above in this thread, don't get removed or certainly anywhere as fast as those that would be directing the same insults at ANET or others I general.

[TheGrimm.5624]

> @"duillyn.2697" said:

> Feedback implies input into some dynamic process. Beyond these vague pleasantries Gaile provides and a post highlighting the skeleton crew that is working on WvW, what process can anyone here note that is ongoing with WvW? Not shots, but truly, beyond 'Soon' from that other dude, what process is any of this feedback going towards?

>

> Why bother.

 

Each player has to weigh and measure for themselves if any time they may put into providing feedback is worth their time. That said I have seen quite a lot of suggestions that have appeared on the forums appear in the game in their original design or as an slightly altered idea. Now whether or not that application concept was triggered from the forum thread or if it was a similar concept that the Dev Team was already working towards can't tell from this side. But have seen it enough times over the years that yes I believe that feedback here does have value. So IMO it does have merits for players to suggest concepts and provide feedback. Now being a programmer and effectively all of us players are the users, users tend to think it should take a 10th of the time that things actually require. Now take a new concept that's posted today, that may take months to a year depending on the complexity of the issue. before it might make it in game as a feature. But to players the day after people will post something they will start to wonder, when will that be there, especially if Anet posts anything on it. 2 cents.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

I think the biggest positive change wvw can experience is for smaller teams to have a good chance of taking down bigger groups if they are more organized. im not sure what would have to change for this to happen (some impossibilities probably lol) but im pretty sure a lot of people that left would come back and definitely some new people would get interested right quick.

[Arden.7480]

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> > @"Diku.2546" said:

> >

> > In any case...I'm hoping that anyone (ANet or Player) might be able to shed some light on this observed phenomenon.

> >

> I banged my shoe against the back-end and sacrificed a skritt to the forum gods. We'll see if that corrected the issue.

 

Wut did you do to a skritt? :D

 

Hahahahhahaha that's the funniest Dev post ever! :D

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"Arden.7480" said:

> > @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> > > @"Diku.2546" said:

> > >

> > > In any case...I'm hoping that anyone (ANet or Player) might be able to shed some light on this observed phenomenon.

> > >

> > I banged my shoe against the back-end and sacrificed a skritt to the forum gods. We'll see if that corrected the issue.

>

> Wut did you do to a skritt? :D

>

> Hahahahhahaha that's the funniest Dev post ever! :D

 

Well what else was she supposed to sacrifice? All the Quaggan are earmarked as trebuchet ammunition and the dedge are all hiding underground.

[Gaile Gray.6029]

> @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > >

> > > On the one hand you postulate that the value of any opinion is fundamentally subjective. At some level this casts doubt on the use of debate but that's another issue.

> > >

> > > On the other hand you ask us all to look at post deletions objectively. But you already stipulated that value of any feedback is subjective. Whose perspective can be considered objective then?

> >

> > I think I can answer this, if I understand the question. Objectivity is best achieved by those who don't have a pony in the race. Post deletions are not personal, are not targeted, are not determined by where you post, how much you play, what profession you choose, your spendings in the Gem Store, nor your astrological sign or shoe size. :) Post deletions are handled by team members who have professional training and experience in viewing each post with as much clarity and as little bias as humanly possible.

> >

> > Post deletions happen when people go OTT in what is supposed to be a reasonable place for conversation. Name calling, rampant insults, attacks on another member, conspiracy theories, threats of legal action -- anything listed in the [Forums Code of Conduct](https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/the-forums-code-of-conduct/ "Forums Code of Conduct") as a potential violation just shouldn't be posted. There's a *reason* we ask for people to be *reasonable* -- to support our community and their ability to have meaningful conversations.

> >

> > > @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> > >

> > > I apologize for all the whining and difficulty you guys must have trying to figure out what to do with WvW, Gaile. I can't say that I'm 100% satisfied with it's current state but I assure you not everyone is as negative and hostile as many of those you see here. And I don't believe "passionate" is a valid excuse for people only ever posting when they're angry and not when they're happy.

> >

> > I appreciate that! And I agree that "passionate" is misused when it's an excuse. "I verbally abused someone because I am 'passionate'" has very little -- probably zero -- validity. We forgive a lot of borderline comments because we do appreciate that people can get a little carried away with expressing themselves, but there **is** a limit, and that's why moderation happens.

> >

>

> Interesting defence Gaile... more interestingly though, it seems that if such posts that insult, flame or troll other posters who are engaged in trying to converse their opinion on how they feel let down by ANET in regards to WvW.. .. well such posts, like the one not too far up above in this thread, don't get removed or certainly anywhere as fast as those that would be directing the same insults at ANET or others I general.

 

I'm no defending anything. And your comments make no sense at all. Threads and posts are moderated in the order the reports are received or the observation of an issue is made by the moderators. Nothing is predicated by the recipient or target of the insult or trolling. Please do feel free to report posts that you believe need to be reviewed and they will be reviewed and the appropriate decision made/action taken as soon as possible.

[solemn.9670]

hi, I'm some guy,

 

and what if breaking the general trend of the gaming industry since 2013, and actually showing your playerbase that you care, made you more money than pumping out as many gem store creations as possible? What if revitalizing the best part of your game ended up making more money by giving people a reason to say "hey, have you heard of Gw2? It has an amazing WvW component and the devs actually give a damn"

[ShinigamiPL.4086]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> I think the biggest positive change wvw can experience is for smaller teams to have a good chance of taking down bigger groups if they are more organized. im not sure what would have to change for this to happen (some impossibilities probably lol) but im pretty sure a lot of people that left would come back and definitely some new people would get interested right quick.

 

In fact we had that at the begining. But Anet decided that it was bad and changed it. In so called 'golden age of wvw' our characters were limited if we consied pros and cons. When i was playing a backline staff necro with wells all I had was one of the biggest dmg potential. But it came with the price - we were slow, we didnt have stability, we didnt have healing, we didnt have to many boons. That's why we needed to group up. Healing was a luxury, boons were luxury etc. Right now all you need is rev next to you and u get boosted all the time, while he's doing tons of dmg from the distance. There are builds fully oriented on healing - so all that 'water-blast' is gone. Therefore the advantage we get for being organised is significantly smaller than it used to. In most cases you win when your blob is bigger. What is more - apparently that's good - i mean people are leaving, we have less and less queues even though servers were merged etc, but hey - they 'working on it'. And the sad fact is this : if Anet cant' provide decent balance right now, what will happen in the future, when they introduce more specialization, so there will be even more potential variants to balance?

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"ShinigamiPL.4086" said:

> > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > I think the biggest positive change wvw can experience is for smaller teams to have a good chance of taking down bigger groups if they are more organized. im not sure what would have to change for this to happen (some impossibilities probably lol) but im pretty sure a lot of people that left would come back and definitely some new people would get interested right quick.

>

> In fact we had that at the begining. But Anet decided that it was bad and changed it. In so called 'golden age of wvw' our characters were limited if we consied pros and cons. When i was playing a backline staff necro with wells all I had was one of the biggest dmg potential. But it came with the price - we were slow, we didnt have stability, we didnt have healing, we didnt have to many boons. That's why we needed to group up. Healing was a luxury, boons were luxury etc. Right now all you need is rev next to you and u get boosted all the time, while he's doing tons of dmg from the distance. There are builds fully oriented on healing - so all that 'water-blast' is gone. Therefore the advantage we get for being organised is significantly smaller than it used to. In most cases you win when your blob is bigger. What is more - apparently that's good - i mean people are leaving, we have less and less queues even though servers were merged etc, but hey - they 'working on it'. And the sad fact is this : if Anet cant' provide decent balance right now, what will happen in the future, when they introduce more specialization, so there will be even more potential variants to balance?

 

well said sir.

[Elizabeth Reed.9173]

The fact is simple but no one will say it. Having one server COMPLETELY dominate and dictate the rankings of all the rest in WvW is not a game. It is a **dictatorship** of one group of people supported by a single, all-powerful corporation. In the real world such a situation would be dealt with by dismantling the ENTIRE group piece by piece and banning future iterations thereof.

[alcopaul.2156]

maybe WvW perfected itself over time?

[Klypto.1703]

Reasons for people leaving are player created problems and problems anet cannot fix. You bandwagon together to farm players those players being farmed will not enjoy it as much as you think they will. So they leave for other games and then you go to forums asking why they leave for?

[Baldrick.8967]

How about an honest answer to these questions:

 

How many full time developers work exclusively on wvw? (I can answer that, none, or at least no evidence of any). or how many man hours spent on wvw since the beginning of the year?

What is the current best guess first beta test phase of alliances?

 

two simple questions that answering of would at least make the wvw playerbase (those that haven't already given up and quit) feel like someone cares or that their game mode isn't actually completely down the bottom of the list.

 

[Reverence.6915]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> I think the biggest positive change wvw can experience is for smaller teams to have a good chance of taking down bigger groups if they are more organized. im not sure what would have to change for this to happen (some impossibilities probably lol) but im pretty sure a lot of people that left would come back and definitely some new people would get interested right quick.

 

Wouldn't be too difficult for the balance team to do, but unless they split balance with PvE, it would also make a lot of their precious PvE players mad, since all you really have to do is revert condi to how it was like back before the condi buffs, just before HoT was released, as well as buff melee damage while nerfing ranged damage

 

That's how it looked like before all the HoT buffs (well, the balance patch before HoT hit). Melee trains might be boring to some, but it did take a coordination that allowed a smaller group to defeat a bigger group

[Klypto.1703]

Don't forget anet killed roaming with the very very bad decision to give everyone auto scouting anti stealth consumables and making npcs a counter to entire classes of roamers in wvw and these roamers also made up fight groups too with their other characters. So many bad decisions and now paying for it and the talk of alliances or any kind of future of wvw fading away and not worth two cents unless there is something coming besides crappy circus weapons.