Panda.1967 Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > But at least thumb up responses generate positivity, and also help to give a snapshot of the overall support for an idea. Thumb down reactions don't do much of anything useful and only contribute negativity, IMO. Only allowing thumbs up does **NOT** give a snapshot of the overall support for an idea. It gives a misrepresentation of the overall support for an idea. If you really want to see the overall support for an idea you **ABSOLUTELY MUST** include a record of those opposed as well as those in favor. Otherwise you're denying a voice to those opposed and only getting a partial view of the overall support. A large number of upvotes doesn't equate to overwhelming support if downvotes are omitted, it only equates to overwhelming support if the downvotes are included and are far exceeded by the upvotes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @Panda.1967 said: > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > But at least thumb up responses generate positivity, and also help to give a snapshot of the overall support for an idea. Thumb down reactions don't do much of anything useful and only contribute negativity, IMO. > > Only allowing thumbs up does **NOT** give a snapshot of the overall support for an idea. It gives a misrepresentation of the overall support for an idea. If you really want to see the overall support for an idea you **ABSOLUTELY MUST** include a record of those opposed as well as those in favor. Otherwise you're denying a voice to those opposed and only getting a partial view of the overall support. A large number of upvotes doesn't equate to overwhelming support if downvotes are omitted, it only equates to overwhelming support if the downvotes are included and are far exceeded by the upvotes. > I don't really agree. Upvotes are a good enough gauge of the support an idea has. When downvoting isn't an option, people who aren't invested in the conversation will simply ignore the thread, which is exactly what should happen. When downvoting is an option, a lot of dumb people will just knee-jerk downvote ideas they don't understand or vaguely don't agree with, often without even having a strong reason for doing so. You could make the same argument about upvoting, but some sort of response aggregation is needed to get a sense of how popular an idea is, and at least upvoting is a positive action that doesn't increase salt and toxicity on the forums and needlessly accentuate the human tendency to fall into groupthink. Here's a 75% upvoted comment on reddit from a while back that I agree with completely: "The downvote system on Reddit is awful and should be removed It's almost universally used incorrectly. Instead of being used to flag irrelevant or inappropriate content, people just use it to disagree with people - sometimes even purely out of spite. Perfectly valid opinions are downvoted to oblivion purely because they don't conform with the Reddit hivemind. I don't see why it can't just be left as upvotes or nothing. If a post doesn't add to a discussion - just leave it be. If it's really that bad, you can report it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyShroud.2865 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @Panda.1967 said: > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > But at least thumb up responses generate positivity, and also help to give a snapshot of the overall support for an idea. Thumb down reactions don't do much of anything useful and only contribute negativity, IMO. > > Only allowing thumbs up does **NOT** give a snapshot of the overall support for an idea. It gives a misrepresentation of the overall support for an idea. If you really want to see the overall support for an idea you **ABSOLUTELY MUST** include a record of those opposed as well as those in favor. Otherwise you're denying a voice to those opposed and only getting a partial view of the overall support. A large number of upvotes doesn't equate to overwhelming support if downvotes are omitted, it only equates to overwhelming support if the downvotes are included and are far exceeded by the upvotes. > There is always a option to make a poll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omar Aschi Popp.7496 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @drkn.3429 said: > The thumbs up and thumbs down system is a good indicator of what's happening within the community; not only what do people think about certain ideas, but also what kinds of reactions are more popular, and allow to ascertain why that might be. > > I would imagine people who only downvote others' posts without any other contributions might get banned from the forums after some time. > > The major difference is that downvoted posts do not disappear from the main page of a category here, whereas downvoting on Reddit casts threads into oblivion. So if the community is populated largely by diddums, we should cater because majority rules? I'd rather have an arbitrary cold draconian system based on unfeeling logic. Not who wins popular opinion. Unpopular opinion: Rolling stones suck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 My take on thumbs up/down is that they are shortcuts to express a simple opinion. I think that there is no significant difference between them and the existence of the forum itself. Not having to hand write out an opinion to then be sent via the postal service in an envelope to be later published saves time just as does the ability to hit one button to say, "I disagree," rather than several. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saiyan.1704 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 The Thumbs Down button is bias because from Left to Right, it supersedes the Thumbs Up button ... A MUST CHANGE! ...my above notions is about as silly as this thread is. Why debate a much needed social forum implementation, of which, nearly _every_ popular and ever-so-crowded forum website has? (WoW forums, Reddit, etc) In my experience; if a post is unpopular, it's because it's was not a well received post. That's a fact that doesn't need to be fact-checked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
symke.3105 Posted September 14, 2017 Author Share Posted September 14, 2017 I decided to refrain myself from using either option until I've seen how this develops. As a further thought to all those interested in this "problem" ... Is there a way to use thumbs up/down system without having the results attached to a person? Like many have said, having an option to up or downvote an idea is often necessary. Is it also **necessary** to up or downvote a person? What I am afraid will happen is downvoting as means of revenge. I agree that people should not get upset or discouraged because someone gave them thumbs down. But it could lead to a less helpfull, encouraging and positive GW2 forum society. I might not, but I do see this as a first step on a potentially downward slope. And considering I lost my crystal ball years ago, I can't see how slippery it is. I mean, let's face it. If Dante were alive today, he would create entirely new circle in his Inferno and it would be reserved for us, internet users. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel.5428 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 People are not yet opened to different opinions. I think the both Up and Down button has no role in the new forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashantara.8731 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 It's already started, people voting something down without sense and reason. I hope ANet will eventually remove this feature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abakk.9176 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 > It all looks great to me to be honest. Nice design and all. > But a voting system.. really? > Well good luck with that ... o.O In another thread i wrote this post i quoted here. I received 1 downvote and a few upvotes on it which in itself i could not care less about. However, i do wonder **what** was actually down/ upvoted. * Me liking the forum layout? * Me disagreeing to a voting system? * The overall post? * My name? * My face? * ....... ? If must be the helpful button is all any forum needs. The rest will simply be abused, just because it can be abused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamazuki.6073 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 There should simply be buttons for a helpful response, reporting posts that violate rules and some sort of +1 button for when you agree and have nothing of value to post and don't want to post that you agree due to that. Anything more than that isn't needed on a traditional forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @symke.3105 said: > Simply put ... please, remove thumbs down option. > I am afraid this forumwill turn into reddit version with such an option. And reddit is nothing more but a cesspool for > 1. Who's got more friends > 2. Who's opinion is more popular at certain time and place > There are differences between reddit and this new forum. On Reddit, posts have point grades and those grades are determined by the like to dislike ratio whereas here, thumbs up and thumbs down are two separate numbers. This can indicate where a controversial point of discussion is, i.e. you see a post with a good number of ups *AND* downs, apparently there are people silently engaging in a battle of opinion by countering the opposition's vote with their own. Secondly, reddit forums will automatically hide posts with a high enough negative score. So far, such a score doesn't exist on this forum but what I fear is more that people will be trigger happy to hit the report button on a post with enough down votes without actually reading the post...but that can happen even if they do read it. > @symke.3105 said: > Just imagine someone saying they didn't like new Star wars movie. They will get downvoted so fast and for nothing more but their opinion. It doesn't matter if they were civil and constructive. They will be drowned by the "how dare you" folk. And do we really want people that are having a problem controlling their emotions to, basically, run this forum? > So? You're still anonymous on the internet, it's not like these downvotes will negatively affect your life or even your account. Why are people so afraid that people won't like them? Especially people you can't see or will never know? Why must people feel as if they are always in the majority? I know it's safe to be amongst the many but ideologically, it's never a good thing to be surrounded by the same. It makes no sense to me how people are reacting to thumbs down but then I suppose I'm used to playing devil's advocate in discussions online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 > My take on thumbs up/down is that they are shortcuts to express a simple opinion. I think that there is no significant difference between them and the existence of the forum itself. Not having to hand write out an opinion to then be sent via the postal service in an envelope to be later published saves time just as does the ability to hit one button to say, "I disagree," rather than several. Except "thumbs down" style disagreement usually doesn't come with any real thought or contribution and often indicates that a person has a poor understanding of the topic. It's knee-jerk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helbjorne.9368 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 I am a simple man. I see posts about removing Thumbs Down, I Thumbs Down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @Helbjorne.9368 said: > I am a simple man. I see posts about removing Thumbs Down, I Thumbs Down. Thank you for taking a brief moment to confirm my observation of how people use thumb down and why it's a net negative for forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helbjorne.9368 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > @Helbjorne.9368 said: > > I am a simple man. I see posts about removing Thumbs Down, I Thumbs Down. > > Thank you for taking a brief moment to confirm my observation of how people use thumb down and why it's a net negative for forums. If you really wanted I could pretend I have an in-depth knowledge of the human psyche and claim that by allowing people to vote on comments it removes substantial content from the forums as the only people using the voting system are those that have no understanding of the posts they are voting on... Oh wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @Helbjorne.9368 said: > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > @Helbjorne.9368 said: > > > I am a simple man. I see posts about removing Thumbs Down, I Thumbs Down. > > > > Thank you for taking a brief moment to confirm my observation of how people use thumb down and why it's a net negative for forums. > > If you really wanted I could pretend I have an in-depth knowledge of the human psyche and claim that by allowing people to vote on comments it removes substantial content from the forums as the only people using the voting system are those that have no understanding of the posts they are voting on... Oh wait. And you'd basically be right! Except voting up is less of an issue because it doesn't result in spreading negativity and is a simple way to draw attention to popular ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rauderi.8706 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @Helbjorne.9368 said: > If you really wanted I could pretend I have an in-depth knowledge of the human psyche and claim that by allowing people to vote on comments it **removes substantial content from the forums** as the only people using the voting system are those that have no understanding of the posts they are voting on... Oh wait. I know you're in the middle of being snarky about it, but you might have stumbled on another benefit of keeping the rating system as is. If we invert the bolded statement, we get: Brevity. Cleaner forums. In the old forums, if you wanted your agreement/disagreement known, you would put up a short post ("No. /15char lol"), but it would just be useless screen clutter. And mildly against the forum's spam/bumping policy. And the prior +1 system didn't do much unless someone got a particularly popular post enough to show a thumbs-up symbol next to it. With the new forums, it's possible to give Yea/Nay votes to agree/disagree with something without cluttering the threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @Rauderi.8706 said: > > @Helbjorne.9368 said: > > If you really wanted I could pretend I have an in-depth knowledge of the human psyche and claim that by allowing people to vote on comments it **removes substantial content from the forums** as the only people using the voting system are those that have no understanding of the posts they are voting on... Oh wait. > > I know you're in the middle of being snarky about it, but you might have stumbled on another benefit of keeping the rating system as is: > > Brevity. Cleaner forums. > > In the old forums, if you wanted your agreement/disagreement known, you would put up a short post ("No. /15char lol"), but it would just be useless screen clutter. And mildly against the forum's spam/bumping policy. And the prior +1 system didn't do much unless someone got a particularly popular post enough to show a thumbs-up symbol next to it. > > With the new forums, it's possible to give Yea/Nay votes to agree/disagree with something without cluttering the threads. And only stupid/toxic people behave in this way, so let's enable them with a thumbs down button so they only have to click something once to spread their negativity throughout the forum! Look, the simple truth is that thumbs down is a bad idea, and many forums that launched with one eventually removed it because they realized it failed to contribute meaningfully and only spread toxicity, undermining the quality of discussion and basically turning forums into a popularity contest, which is the last thing they should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helbjorne.9368 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > @Helbjorne.9368 said: > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > @Helbjorne.9368 said: > > > > I am a simple man. I see posts about removing Thumbs Down, I Thumbs Down. > > > > > > Thank you for taking a brief moment to confirm my observation of how people use thumb down and why it's a net negative for forums. > > > > If you really wanted I could pretend I have an in-depth knowledge of the human psyche and claim that by allowing people to vote on comments it removes substantial content from the forums as the only people using the voting system are those that have no understanding of the posts they are voting on... Oh wait. > > And you'd basically be right! Except voting up is less of an issue because it doesn't result in spreading negativity and is a simple way to draw attention to popular ideas. So instead of allowing people to vote as to whether they agree or disagree with something, you'd rather they only be allowed to vote that they agree? That just creates a false-positive environment and is censorship at its finest. If you're going to remove one, remove the other, so that regardless of one's opinion on a topic they have to contribute to the thread in order to promote it. To further elaborate, no one gets upset when there's a chain of +1s in a thread showing support for it, yet they're not contributing nor showing understanding of the post either; they're simply showing support for the topic at hand. According to some in this thread it is somehow okay to "blindly" agree with something, and yet not okay to "blindly" disagree with something, simply because of the fact that it promotes "negativity," which is subjective to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helbjorne.9368 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @Rauderi.8706 said: > In the old forums, if you wanted your agreement/disagreement known, you would put up a short post ("No. /15char lol"), but it would just be useless screen clutter. And mildly against the forum's spam/bumping policy. And the prior +1 system didn't do much unless someone got a particularly popular post enough to show a thumbs-up symbol next to it. Coincidentally that was exactly what I was referring to in my reply to Einlazer, who apparently likes to use terms such as toxic and stupid to describe people that disagree with him, yet he wants to remove the negativity from the forums through removing the Thumbs Down option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menadena.7482 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @SkyShroud.2865 said: > Thumbs down to me is similar to peer pressure to conform people to specific social norm. If someone is to say something not of the majority's interest, people can easily abuse the thumb down, not because it is a verbally offensive post but because "i don't like it". It is like public way of silencing free speech. Silencing free speech? Yeesh. Say there were no thumbs up or thumbs down options. Would a thousand posts that basically said 'I agree' or 'I disagree' be better or worse? Why? I would vote worse. You are conveying the same information but in more space. All that really matters is how many people agreed/disagreed, right? To bring it a step further, I would prefer to see the list of names of who agreed/disagreed return as some names on a forum carry more weight than others. Either in general or on a specific topic (say there was a medical question, I would be more inclined to listen to a practicing physician in that field than someone spouting a general opinion). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @Helbjorne.9368 said: > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > @Helbjorne.9368 said: > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > @Helbjorne.9368 said: > > > > > I am a simple man. I see posts about removing Thumbs Down, I Thumbs Down. > > > > > > > > Thank you for taking a brief moment to confirm my observation of how people use thumb down and why it's a net negative for forums. > > > > > > If you really wanted I could pretend I have an in-depth knowledge of the human psyche and claim that by allowing people to vote on comments it removes substantial content from the forums as the only people using the voting system are those that have no understanding of the posts they are voting on... Oh wait. > > > > And you'd basically be right! Except voting up is less of an issue because it doesn't result in spreading negativity and is a simple way to draw attention to popular ideas. > > @Rauderi.8706 said: > > In the old forums, if you wanted your agreement/disagreement known, you would put up a short post ("No. /15char lol"), but it would just be useless screen clutter. And mildly against the forum's spam/bumping policy. And the prior +1 system didn't do much unless someone got a particularly popular post enough to show a thumbs-up symbol next to it. > > Coincidentally that was exactly what I was referring to in my reply to Einlazer, who apparently likes to use terms such as toxic and stupid to describe people that disagree with him, yet he wants to remove the negativity from the forums through removing the Thumbs Down option. Yeah, basically. I can already see myself abandoning this forum due to the thumbs down, because I have no patience dealing with terrible people, and terrible people emerge very quickly in systems that use downvoting for dissent. I never respond that way to other peoples' ideas. Ever. I either provide constructive criticism, I thoughtfully agree, or I don't pay it any mind if it's outside of my headspace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @Menadena.7482 said: > > @SkyShroud.2865 said: > > Thumbs down to me is similar to peer pressure to conform people to specific social norm. If someone is to say something not of the majority's interest, people can easily abuse the thumb down, not because it is a verbally offensive post but because "i don't like it". It is like public way of silencing free speech. > > Silencing free speech? Yeesh. > > Say there were no thumbs up or thumbs down options. Would a thousand posts that basically said 'I agree' or 'I disagree' be better or worse? Why? > > I would vote worse. You are conveying the same information but in more space. All that really matters is how many people agreed/disagreed, right? To bring it a step further, I would prefer to see the list of names of who agreed/disagreed return as some names on a forum carry more weight than others. Either in general or on a specific topic (say there was a medical question, I would be more inclined to listen to a practicing physician in that field than someone spouting a general opinion). > The majority of people that click disagree would not take the time to post "I disagree" if clicking a thumbs down button wasn't available, only a small percentage of them would, so this is a flawed argument. This is exactly an illustration why downvoting is a terrible system. It favors conformity over innovation of ideas. Regular forums do that to an extent, but downvoting (and to a lesser degree upvoting) really exacerbates it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > @Menadena.7482 said: > > > @SkyShroud.2865 said: > > > Thumbs down to me is similar to peer pressure to conform people to specific social norm. If someone is to say something not of the majority's interest, people can easily abuse the thumb down, not because it is a verbally offensive post but because "i don't like it". It is like public way of silencing free speech. > > > > Silencing free speech? Yeesh. > > > > Say there were no thumbs up or thumbs down options. Would a thousand posts that basically said 'I agree' or 'I disagree' be better or worse? Why? > > > > I would vote worse. You are conveying the same information but in more space. All that really matters is how many people agreed/disagreed, right? To bring it a step further, I would prefer to see the list of names of who agreed/disagreed return as some names on a forum carry more weight than others. Either in general or on a specific topic (say there was a medical question, I would be more inclined to listen to a practicing physician in that field than someone spouting a general opinion). > > > > The majority of people that click disagree would not take the time to post "I disagree" if clicking a thumbs down button wasn't available, only a small percentage of them would, so this is a flawed argument. > > This is exactly an illustration why downvoting is a terrible system. It favors conformity over innovation of ideas. Regular forums do that to an extent, but downvoting (and to a lesser degree upvoting) really exacerbates it. See? Some fucking moron is just coming through and downvoting every post I make now literally seconds after I post it. This is how it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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