Damage Meters ruin enjoyment of content

[Nemmar.8491]

This is a two sided coin that is difficult to balance.

 

No Damage meters allow players who can't do well to not be discriminated against, but it also doesn't motivate them to improve.

 

At that point, the content has to be made easy enough that performance won't be a major deciding factor, otherwise you are discriminating the players that are being held back. This has the consequence of invalidating character progression/customization, so again it's not ideal.

At this point challenging content can't be made for the game or if it is made it is a trap where well prepared players won't be able to progress due to less prepared players.

 

I used to think damage meters were bad, but they are instruments that allow you to improve. It's true it can be misused, but i think this all is a failure of class design where it's possible to fall into traps and the complexity of rotations (though they become repetitive). The difference in performance between an oblivious and a prepared player is gigantic in this game.

 

 

[Ol Nik.2518]

> @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> Why would **personal** DPS matter when talking about **group** content lmao @"Ol Nik.2518"

>

> ps sorry if i misunderstood

 

I was answering to a person who was talking about a group's underperformance due to decreased DPS of just one person in a said group.

[Ol Nik.2518]

> @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> > @"Ol Nik.2518" said:

> > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > DPS meters do help anyone to optimize. unless your running with 5x full support minstrel builds in fracs, you will invest something into offense. no matter how little that something is you can optimize it and DPS meter helps there.

> >

> > > @"yann.1946" said:

> > > The dps meter mostly used in gw2 also shows boon uptime etc so it will be usefull for everyone wo wants to optimize their playstyle

> >

> > I am sorry, but both of you still see it from a min/max point of view. It does not work for those of us who optimise their playstyles for our physical limitations. For example, I play what my son calls 'afk ranged tank summoner' builds. My priorities are exactly in this order:

> >

> > 1. minimal stress on my hands (mice and keyboards are not very friendly to carpal tunnel), aka 2 buttons combat mode (preferably, no more than one key/button for each hand)

> > 2. minimal movement during combat

> > 3. stay alive

> >

> > I will do my best to notify you of my limitations. But I am not going to change the way I play for you. Your frustration, no matter how understandable, is no reason for me to suffer pain or aggravate my condition.

> >

> > DPS meters are not only useless in this situation, but they can make things worse for everyone. The numbers show that someone is 'underperforming' despite the fact that they are doing their best to last through a physically painful and exhaustive fight.

>

> This is the equivalent of a man with a disability joining the Olympics and then QQing that he lost because his speed was masured.

>

> What you want to join are the Paralympics but with only participatin trophys.

>

From my point of view, it looks more like this: Despite being a person with a disability I am bullied into participation in the Olympics. On top of that, I am ridiculed for not being able to.

 

Please read the entire thread next time you want to be smart.

[Nephalem.8921]

> @"Shivvies.3921" said:

 

> If someone said, my core warrior banner support was doing less than 40% of the rest of the DPS so I should git gud, I'd do again the same as they do NOT understand the meta and how much I'm adding to the group.

 

You know that a good played BS does almost the same dps as a pure dps? It's not uncommon for an experienced Warr to outdamage average dps players. You could do 80-90% of a dps players dps while providing the banners.

If you have super low dps on a warrior it is a matter of git gud.

I really don't understand the "it's a game" argument. Almost all the team based sports are played for fun by 99% of the players aswell but it's quite normal to try to improve there or benching bad players.

Group consists of multiple players. I expect everyone in a pug to carry their weight. Some people here are just crazy and expect complete strangers to carry them through content. There is no way to figure out whats blocking the kill without using a damage meter when people play meta weapons.

There are professions that have high dps with just using 1 button. There is a training golem where you can test dps rotations. You don't have to improve your dps rotation in a raid setting.

People against dps meters are just mad that raid leaders have ways to spot leechers or that people can see if the leader or his friends need pugs to carry them. Kill proofs can be faked, Dps can't.

The underwater fractal is a joke and can be pretty fast. Except if multiple players don't have lvl 80 underwater weapons or use range weapons. Then it becomes a 10min nightmare and adds killing everyone.

And an honest question. How do the people against damage meters want to spot players with like full nomads armour and weapons in a fractal run? Gear inspect doesn't exist. Happens to me a lot.

For example my group searched for a power warrior for t4 + cm fractals. A warrior joins Pings 250+ KP probably with a macro. Uses axes. Gets outdamaged by the boon chrono on every boss. How do you spot this without a damage meter?

"Play how you want" goes both ways. Why am I not allowed to play fractals with toxic elitists?

[Ol Nik.2518]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Ol Nik.2518" said:

> > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said:

> > > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > > > > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said:

> > > > > > I think this is exactly it. You do not want to be told how to play your game. But it goes the other way, too. People should not be telling others that meta builds and super-optimised rotations are the only way to play. Unfortunately, people use DPS metering data to talk you down if you are not following meta.

> > > > > >

> > > > > Except people are not "telling" others that meta builds are superior, math does. If the same player does 18K DPS on a particular fight and 14K DPS on the same fight but running a different build, what logical or rational reason would there be to run the second build, *provided your primary motivation is to kill the boss quickly.*

> > > > >

> > > > The maths does not tell that meta builds are superior. Your interpretation of data does. Your interpretation is not necessarily correct. Especially if it is based on limited data and limited understanding of circumstances.

> > > >

> > > > I suppose that you use [arcdps](https://www.deltaconnected.com/arcdps/ "arcdps."). If you check their website carefully you will see a rather long list of limitations. They actually say that 'a 100% accurate representation of your damage or healing is not possible.' I also believe that DPS meters at present are not capable of showing users how players' actions influence a fight (DPS, monsters, etc.).

> > > >

> > > > Looking just at one player's DPS it is not even possible to say whether a boss will be killed slower or quicker. This 'low DPS' build might boost damage output of other players. Or it might shorten downtime for DMG dealers. Or maybe, it breaks bars and makes the encounter go smoother. Or something else that increases the team's effectiveness, but is not registered with DPS meter. There is also a possibility, that this low DPS is a result of high burst DMG built and you are looking at numbers at a wrong time. If any of these are true, your low DPS build will shorten the duration of a fight.

> > > >

> > > > It is actually possible that this low DPS, mediocre build is the next meta for utility or support. You just do not know it, yet. Because the only thing you could see is low DPS.

> > > >

> > > > P.S. Please note that it is you who started talking about the superiority of meta builds. I said that no one should be telling other people that meta builds are the only way to play.

> > >

> > > Actually I'm not saying it, but the vast community of elite players who are way better at this game than you or I, who have spent many more hours playing than you or I, and actually take the trouble to test builds with all the various combinations of skills - those are the people who specify the best builds, and those determinations are based on math.

> > >

> > > Now if you don't think people from Snowcrows, Disrectize, or similar guilds are capable of determining the optimal builds, not sure what else to tell you.

> >

> > Actually, the mathematics only suggests that those builds might be the most effective in an ideal situation, i.e. pro-level players, well-known encounter mechanics, high group synergy, and excellent hardware performance. The maths does not suggest, though, that personal DPS is a decisive criterion of effectiveness for every single build (even within your own constraints: 'provided your primary motivation is to kill the boss quickly').

> >

> > There is no solid statistical data, that I am aware of, that meta builds are the most effective in less than ideal conditions. But there is a high probability that they are not, because:

> > * The majority of players are not at the required level for the highest possible performance of a build.

> > * A lot of random groups lack synergy required to take advantage of highly optimised and specialised builds.

> > * There is no guarantee that everybody in a random group has deep understanding of an encounter and meta strategy.

> > * Any system with highly optimised and specialised parts with little built-in redundancies is at risk of failure if one of the parts is malfunctioning or not performing to its full potential.

> >

> > A less optimised, but more adaptive build may have an advantage over a meta build when it comes to random groups. If I were to conduct a systematic statistical analysis for this, I would use personal DPS, of course. However, it would just one of the many other criteria (downtime, healing, boons, breakbars, ease of use, etc.) of effectiveness. If you can collect the necessary data I would be more than happy to do all the required statistical research. And we will be able to talk with numbers at hand. As it is now, let's agree to disagree.

> >

> > Cheers.

> >

> >

>

> True, and there are certainly safer compositions to run where the entire group sacrifices certain classes or builds and thus maybe maximum output under perfect conditions, in favor of say more survivability or sustain. In those cases this would have to be a group decision and most often presents its self in the following ways:

>

> - taking a different healer or support class on certain content

> - taking a different (easier to play) damage dealer which results in better personal damage done versus the ideal meta build if played by that player

> - replacing a damage dealer with another support (which most PUG groups do already by bringing 2 healers instead of the often meta 1 healer)

> - bringing more reliable boon support classes for specific content

>

> It all ends with 1 thing though, and this is where your argument fails:

> Raids are built up with certain roles in mind. Currently those roles are:

> - boon support (and similar like banners)

> - healing

> - damage

>

> When you are on a dps slot, you are expected to perform in a specific way that is to maximize your damage. If you die or go down, you are expected to switch to a class which will provide the maximum amount of damage you can provide. If the raid as a whole has survival issues, the composition will get altered. **Thus arcdps will give an accurate snap view of the performance at that given point in time. If your damage was bad, while other dps performed well, you are holding the raid back. It does not matter how much tankier or more durable you were or safer your build, that's not your role as a dps.** The support and healers are in charge of keeping you alive and providing support and if you can't bring performance XYZ while others can, you will get replaced.

 

and

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> You can talk about burst vs. sustained damage, support builds, and the limitations of arcdps all you want. The fact is that if you're there to produce damage and your failure to do so has a sufficiently negative impact on the group, they may decide to pursue other options. Some players are toxic and they'll be disrespectful and cause problems even when your performance isn't causing any problems for the group. That's unfortunate, but to shift the argument to make it seem like nobody can tell the difference between good performance and bad is simply ridiculous. Very few players are stupid enough to look only at DPS and absolutely nothing else.

 

This branch of discussion started with this:

_'If the same player does 18K DPS on a particular fight and 14K DPS on the same fight but running a different build, what logical or rational reason would there be to run the second build, provided your primary motivation is to kill the boss quickly.'_

 

 

 

 

[Nephalem.8921]

> @"Ol Nik.2518" said:

 

> From my point of view, it looks more like this: Despite being a person with a disability I am bullied into participation in the Olympics. On top of that, I am ridiculed for not being able to.

>

> Please read the entire thread next time you want to be smart.

 

Power daredevil does top level dps with mostly 1 button. No reflexes or anything needed. All tells you have to dodge are longer than 1 second. Are you allowed to drive a car? You shouldn't be if you can't dodge them because of a disability.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> "Play how you want" goes both ways. Why am I not allowed to play fractals with toxic elitists?

 

you are. i think its often a matter of communication. i rarely see a description in LFG that asks explicitly for toxic elitists for example.

[Nephalem.8921]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > "Play how you want" goes both ways. Why am I not allowed to play fractals with toxic elitists?

>

> you are. i think its often a matter of communication. i rarely see a description in LFG that asks explicitly for toxic elitists for example.

 

I mean I can't do that without dps meters because there is no way to spot something like the warrior i mentioned in my post. Doesn't matter what I ask for in a description if it gets ignored all the time.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > > "Play how you want" goes both ways. Why am I not allowed to play fractals with toxic elitists?

> >

> > you are. i think its often a matter of communication. i rarely see a description in LFG that asks explicitly for toxic elitists for example.

>

> I mean I can't do that without dps meters because there is no way to spot something like the warrior i mentioned in my post. Doesn't matter what I ask for in a description if it gets ignored all the time.

 

i know that you might need dps meters for that, thats not my point.

both asking to be in a rather 'toxic elite' group or being in a rather 'chill'/'relaxed' groups is mostly a matter of communication, be it people not posting what they seek properly or people not reading/ignoring what they have read. people then end up in a group with conflicting interests.

it has nothing to do with the meter, only people and communication.

if everyone just joined groups with a description fitting the approach they want to take, then we wouldnt have these topics. no need to DPS shame in a relaxed run and no need to slack in an elitist run.

 

[Shivvies.3921]

> @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > @"Shivvies.3921" said:

>

> > If someone said, my core warrior banner support was doing less than 40% of the rest of the DPS so I should git gud, I'd do again the same as they do NOT understand the meta and how much I'm adding to the group.

>

> You know that a good played BS does almost the same dps as a pure dps? It's not uncommon for an experienced Warr to outdamage average dps players. You could do 80-90% of a dps players dps while providing the banners.

> If you have super low dps on a warrior it is a matter of git gud.

> I really don't understand the "it's a game" argument. Almost all the team based sports are played for fun by 99% of the players aswell but it's quite normal to try to improve there or benching bad players.

> Group consists of multiple players. I expect everyone in a pug to carry their weight. Some people here are just crazy and expect complete strangers to carry them through content. There is no way to figure out whats blocking the kill without using a damage meter when people play meta weapons.

> There are professions that have high dps with just using 1 button. There is a training golem where you can test dps rotations. You don't have to improve your dps rotation in a raid setting.

> People against dps meters are just mad that raid leaders have ways to spot leechers or that people can see if the leader or his friends need pugs to carry them. Kill proofs can be faked, Dps can't.

> The underwater fractal is a joke and can be pretty fast. Except if multiple players don't have lvl 80 underwater weapons or use range weapons. Then it becomes a 10min nightmare and adds killing everyone.

> And an honest question. How do the people against damage meters want to spot players with like full nomads armour and weapons in a fractal run? Gear inspect doesn't exist. Happens to me a lot.

> For example my group searched for a power warrior for t4 + cm fractals. A warrior joins Pings 250+ KP probably with a macro. Uses axes. Gets outdamaged by the boon chrono on every boss. How do you spot this without a damage meter?

> "Play how you want" goes both ways. Why am I not allowed to play fractals with toxic elitists?

 

I'm FOR DPS metres. I dunno what your point is. "If I open with 25K as warri and the other dps is good and does like 33K" was the scenario.

 

I regularly do more -even double- the dps of puggies. I just meant in ideal conditions core warrior CEILING is lower than other meta DPS.

[Nephalem.8921]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> > > > "Play how you want" goes both ways. Why am I not allowed to play fractals with toxic elitists?

> > >

> > > you are. i think its often a matter of communication. i rarely see a description in LFG that asks explicitly for toxic elitists for example.

> >

> > I mean I can't do that without dps meters because there is no way to spot something like the warrior i mentioned in my post. Doesn't matter what I ask for in a description if it gets ignored all the time.

>

> i know that you might need dps meters for that, thats not my point.

> both asking to be in a rather 'toxic elite' group or being in a rather 'chill'/'relaxed' groups is mostly a matter of communication, be it people not posting what they seek properly or people not reading/ignoring what they have read. people then end up in a group with conflicting interests.

> it has nothing to do with the meter, only people and communication.

> if everyone just joined groups with a description fitting the approach they want to take, then we wouldnt have these topics. no need to DPS shame in a relaxed run and no need to slack in an elitist run.

>

 

Wars wouldn't exist if that would be so easy. Humans just don't behave that way.

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Ol Nik.2518" said:

> > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said:

> > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > DPS meters do help anyone to optimize. unless your running with 5x full support minstrel builds in fracs, you will invest something into offense. no matter how little that something is you can optimize it and DPS meter helps there.

> > >

> > > > @"yann.1946" said:

> > > > The dps meter mostly used in gw2 also shows boon uptime etc so it will be usefull for everyone wo wants to optimize their playstyle

> > >

> > > I am sorry, but both of you still see it from a min/max point of view. It does not work for those of us who optimise their playstyles for our physical limitations. For example, I play what my son calls 'afk ranged tank summoner' builds. My priorities are exactly in this order:

> > >

> > > 1. minimal stress on my hands (mice and keyboards are not very friendly to carpal tunnel), aka 2 buttons combat mode (preferably, no more than one key/button for each hand)

> > > 2. minimal movement during combat

> > > 3. stay alive

> > >

> > > I will do my best to notify you of my limitations. But I am not going to change the way I play for you. Your frustration, no matter how understandable, is no reason for me to suffer pain or aggravate my condition.

> > >

> > > DPS meters are not only useless in this situation, but they can make things worse for everyone. The numbers show that someone is 'underperforming' despite the fact that they are doing their best to last through a physically painful and exhaustive fight.

> >

> > This is the equivalent of a man with a disability joining the Olympics and then QQing that he lost because his speed was masured.

> >

> > What you want to join are the Paralympics but with only participatin trophys.

> >

> From my point of view, it looks more like this: Despite being a person with a disability I am bullied into participation in the Olympics. On top of that, I am ridiculed for not being able to.

>

> Please read the entire thread next time you want to be smart.

 

You mean the entire thread where the sution to the problem is repeatedly stated for people to join groups of like minded players?

 

If you join a group comprised of people who prefer to play as you do...how are you being bullied into participation in the olympics?

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"TheOrlyFactor.8341" said:

> Gonna echo what others have said in that meters aren't the problem and this is coming from someone who plays open world PvE about 90% of the time. They're a tool. Like any tool, it has positive and negative uses depending on the user and how they use it. Players would just fall back to other means to exclude players if meters weren't allowed (i.e. gear check pings, AP's, titles, etc.).

>

> I guess I'm lucky in that a close friend I play with in game uses a DPS meter to observe how I'm doing and give me advice on how to improve based on my playstyle preferences (i.e. I hate using runes/sigils that proc based on weapon swapping or runes/sigils that rely on having my health above a certain threshold due to having a more aggressive playstyle so he helps me find sigils/runes that mesh more with my playstyle while also boosting my DPS if I'm playing a profession focused on DPS).

>

> Granted, this also has to do with the fact that I absolutely refuse to PUG anything unless I'm playing with my friend and guildmates. You're gonna encounter toxic situations where meters are abused more if you're PUGing (especially PUGing alone).

 

if a fight needs say 15k dps by the total party and the party is doing say 20 and we have a tool that is skewed towards dps only which is running out of context by people who have trained themselves to think that everyone should be min maxing gear and builds for much more deepeeess then yes the tool is an issue.

[TheOrlyFactor.8341]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"TheOrlyFactor.8341" said:

> > Gonna echo what others have said in that meters aren't the problem and this is coming from someone who plays open world PvE about 90% of the time. They're a tool. Like any tool, it has positive and negative uses depending on the user and how they use it. Players would just fall back to other means to exclude players if meters weren't allowed (i.e. gear check pings, AP's, titles, etc.).

> >

> > I guess I'm lucky in that a close friend I play with in game uses a DPS meter to observe how I'm doing and give me advice on how to improve based on my playstyle preferences (i.e. I hate using runes/sigils that proc based on weapon swapping or runes/sigils that rely on having my health above a certain threshold due to having a more aggressive playstyle so he helps me find sigils/runes that mesh more with my playstyle while also boosting my DPS if I'm playing a profession focused on DPS).

> >

> > Granted, this also has to do with the fact that I absolutely refuse to PUG anything unless I'm playing with my friend and guildmates. You're gonna encounter toxic situations where meters are abused more if you're PUGing (especially PUGing alone).

>

> if a fight needs say 15k dps by the total party and the party is doing say 20 and we have a tool that is skewed towards dps only which is running out of context by people who have trained themselves to think that everyone should be min maxing gear and builds for much more deepeeess then yes the tool is an issue.

 

Cool.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"TheOrlyFactor.8341" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > @"TheOrlyFactor.8341" said:

> > > Gonna echo what others have said in that meters aren't the problem and this is coming from someone who plays open world PvE about 90% of the time. They're a tool. Like any tool, it has positive and negative uses depending on the user and how they use it. Players would just fall back to other means to exclude players if meters weren't allowed (i.e. gear check pings, AP's, titles, etc.).

> > >

> > > I guess I'm lucky in that a close friend I play with in game uses a DPS meter to observe how I'm doing and give me advice on how to improve based on my playstyle preferences (i.e. I hate using runes/sigils that proc based on weapon swapping or runes/sigils that rely on having my health above a certain threshold due to having a more aggressive playstyle so he helps me find sigils/runes that mesh more with my playstyle while also boosting my DPS if I'm playing a profession focused on DPS).

> > >

> > > Granted, this also has to do with the fact that I absolutely refuse to PUG anything unless I'm playing with my friend and guildmates. You're gonna encounter toxic situations where meters are abused more if you're PUGing (especially PUGing alone).

> >

> > if a fight needs say 15k dps by the total party and the party is doing say 20 and we have a tool that is skewed towards dps only which is running out of context by people who have trained themselves to think that everyone should be min maxing gear and builds for much more deepeeess then yes the tool is an issue.

>

> Okay.

 

logic is a killer.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"TheOrlyFactor.8341" said:

> > Gonna echo what others have said in that meters aren't the problem and this is coming from someone who plays open world PvE about 90% of the time. They're a tool. Like any tool, it has positive and negative uses depending on the user and how they use it. Players would just fall back to other means to exclude players if meters weren't allowed (i.e. gear check pings, AP's, titles, etc.).

> >

> > I guess I'm lucky in that a close friend I play with in game uses a DPS meter to observe how I'm doing and give me advice on how to improve based on my playstyle preferences (i.e. I hate using runes/sigils that proc based on weapon swapping or runes/sigils that rely on having my health above a certain threshold due to having a more aggressive playstyle so he helps me find sigils/runes that mesh more with my playstyle while also boosting my DPS if I'm playing a profession focused on DPS).

> >

> > Granted, this also has to do with the fact that I absolutely refuse to PUG anything unless I'm playing with my friend and guildmates. You're gonna encounter toxic situations where meters are abused more if you're PUGing (especially PUGing alone).

>

> if a fight needs say 15k dps by the total party and the party is doing say 20 and we have a tool that is skewed towards dps only which is running out of context by people who have trained themselves to think that everyone should be min maxing gear and builds for much more deepeeess then yes the tool is an issue.

 

It's not for you to decide how others play the game. And that's a two-way street. There is nothing wrong with 4 players in a chill run replacing the odd man out who has to gripe about DPS after every encounter just as there is nothing wrong with 4 players in a speed run replacing the player who doesn't meet their standard. In both cases the issue is player compatibility, not DPS meters. Make your expectations clear and you will avoid most of these issues. Do otherwise or join random groups that give no indication of their preferences at your own risk and expect to have some issues.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > @"TheOrlyFactor.8341" said:

> > > Gonna echo what others have said in that meters aren't the problem and this is coming from someone who plays open world PvE about 90% of the time. They're a tool. Like any tool, it has positive and negative uses depending on the user and how they use it. Players would just fall back to other means to exclude players if meters weren't allowed (i.e. gear check pings, AP's, titles, etc.).

> > >

> > > I guess I'm lucky in that a close friend I play with in game uses a DPS meter to observe how I'm doing and give me advice on how to improve based on my playstyle preferences (i.e. I hate using runes/sigils that proc based on weapon swapping or runes/sigils that rely on having my health above a certain threshold due to having a more aggressive playstyle so he helps me find sigils/runes that mesh more with my playstyle while also boosting my DPS if I'm playing a profession focused on DPS).

> > >

> > > Granted, this also has to do with the fact that I absolutely refuse to PUG anything unless I'm playing with my friend and guildmates. You're gonna encounter toxic situations where meters are abused more if you're PUGing (especially PUGing alone).

> >

> > if a fight needs say 15k dps by the total party and the party is doing say 20 and we have a tool that is skewed towards dps only which is running out of context by people who have trained themselves to think that everyone should be min maxing gear and builds for much more deepeeess then yes the tool is an issue.

>

> It's not for you to decide how others play the game. And that's a two-way street. There is nothing wrong with 4 players in a chill run replacing the odd man out who has to gripe about DPS after every encounter just as there is nothing wrong with 4 players in a speed run replacing the player who doesn't meet their standard. In both cases the issue is player compatibility, not DPS meters. Make your expectations clear and you will avoid most of these issues. Do otherwise or join random groups that give no indication of their preferences at your own risk and expect to have some issues

 

Obviously the issue is not in groups advertising for specific setups.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"TheOrlyFactor.8341" said:

> > Gonna echo what others have said in that meters aren't the problem and this is coming from someone who plays open world PvE about 90% of the time. They're a tool. Like any tool, it has positive and negative uses depending on the user and how they use it. Players would just fall back to other means to exclude players if meters weren't allowed (i.e. gear check pings, AP's, titles, etc.).

> >

> > I guess I'm lucky in that a close friend I play with in game uses a DPS meter to observe how I'm doing and give me advice on how to improve based on my playstyle preferences (i.e. I hate using runes/sigils that proc based on weapon swapping or runes/sigils that rely on having my health above a certain threshold due to having a more aggressive playstyle so he helps me find sigils/runes that mesh more with my playstyle while also boosting my DPS if I'm playing a profession focused on DPS).

> >

> > Granted, this also has to do with the fact that I absolutely refuse to PUG anything unless I'm playing with my friend and guildmates. You're gonna encounter toxic situations where meters are abused more if you're PUGing (especially PUGing alone).

>

> if a fight needs say 15k dps by the total party and the party is doing say 20 and we have a tool that is skewed towards dps only which is running out of context by people who have trained themselves to think that everyone should be min maxing gear and builds for much more deepeeess then yes the tool is an issue.

 

There is no requirements for specific dps, except that higher dps gets the job done faster. Getting the job done faster means less mechanics to deal with. Less mechanics to deal with means higher chance of success (on top of speeding up the process). Higher chance of success means higher chance at loot.

 

You make it sound as though people had an issue with slight variance in performance. That's usually not the case. We aren't talking about 1-2k dps difference often. The usual scenario is a person being useless and others not wanting to carry them. This applies both to fractals and raids.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > @"TheOrlyFactor.8341" said:

> > > Gonna echo what others have said in that meters aren't the problem and this is coming from someone who plays open world PvE about 90% of the time. They're a tool. Like any tool, it has positive and negative uses depending on the user and how they use it. Players would just fall back to other means to exclude players if meters weren't allowed (i.e. gear check pings, AP's, titles, etc.).

> > >

> > > I guess I'm lucky in that a close friend I play with in game uses a DPS meter to observe how I'm doing and give me advice on how to improve based on my playstyle preferences (i.e. I hate using runes/sigils that proc based on weapon swapping or runes/sigils that rely on having my health above a certain threshold due to having a more aggressive playstyle so he helps me find sigils/runes that mesh more with my playstyle while also boosting my DPS if I'm playing a profession focused on DPS).

> > >

> > > Granted, this also has to do with the fact that I absolutely refuse to PUG anything unless I'm playing with my friend and guildmates. You're gonna encounter toxic situations where meters are abused more if you're PUGing (especially PUGing alone).

> >

> > if a fight needs say 15k dps by the total party and the party is doing say 20 and we have a tool that is skewed towards dps only which is running out of context by people who have trained themselves to think that everyone should be min maxing gear and builds for much more deepeeess then yes the tool is an issue.

>

> There is nor requirements for specific dps, except that higher dps gets the job done faster. Getting the job done faster means less mechanics to deal with. Less mechanics to deal with means higher chance of success (on top of speeding up the process). Higher chance of success means higher chance at loot.

>

> You make it sound as though people had an issue with slight variance in performance. That's usually not the case. We aren't talking about 1-2k dps difference often. The usual scenario is a person being useless and others not wanting to carry them. This applies both to fractals and raids.

 

that's not the point i was making.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > @"TheOrlyFactor.8341" said:

> > > > Gonna echo what others have said in that meters aren't the problem and this is coming from someone who plays open world PvE about 90% of the time. They're a tool. Like any tool, it has positive and negative uses depending on the user and how they use it. Players would just fall back to other means to exclude players if meters weren't allowed (i.e. gear check pings, AP's, titles, etc.).

> > > >

> > > > I guess I'm lucky in that a close friend I play with in game uses a DPS meter to observe how I'm doing and give me advice on how to improve based on my playstyle preferences (i.e. I hate using runes/sigils that proc based on weapon swapping or runes/sigils that rely on having my health above a certain threshold due to having a more aggressive playstyle so he helps me find sigils/runes that mesh more with my playstyle while also boosting my DPS if I'm playing a profession focused on DPS).

> > > >

> > > > Granted, this also has to do with the fact that I absolutely refuse to PUG anything unless I'm playing with my friend and guildmates. You're gonna encounter toxic situations where meters are abused more if you're PUGing (especially PUGing alone).

> > >

> > > if a fight needs say 15k dps by the total party and the party is doing say 20 and we have a tool that is skewed towards dps only which is running out of context by people who have trained themselves to think that everyone should be min maxing gear and builds for much more deepeeess then yes the tool is an issue.

> >

> > It's not for you to decide how others play the game. And that's a two-way street. There is nothing wrong with 4 players in a chill run replacing the odd man out who has to gripe about DPS after every encounter just as there is nothing wrong with 4 players in a speed run replacing the player who doesn't meet their standard. In both cases the issue is player compatibility, not DPS meters. Make your expectations clear and you will avoid most of these issues. Do otherwise or join random groups that give no indication of their preferences at your own risk and expect to have some issues

>

> Obviously the issue is not in groups advertising for specific setups.

 

While it would certainly be convenient if everyone explicitly stated their expectations beforehand, not doing so doesn't mean the group forfeits their right to play the game how they want to play it. I suggest individuals communicate their expectations to avoid problems, but ultimately the majority rules. If 4 players want to do things one way and the 5th player doesn't fit into that picture, then there's nothing wrong with replacing that player. Regardless, the DPS meter is not a factor at all.

[Ashen.2907]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"TheOrlyFactor.8341" said:

> > Gonna echo what others have said in that meters aren't the problem and this is coming from someone who plays open world PvE about 90% of the time. They're a tool. Like any tool, it has positive and negative uses depending on the user and how they use it. Players would just fall back to other means to exclude players if meters weren't allowed (i.e. gear check pings, AP's, titles, etc.).

> >

> > I guess I'm lucky in that a close friend I play with in game uses a DPS meter to observe how I'm doing and give me advice on how to improve based on my playstyle preferences (i.e. I hate using runes/sigils that proc based on weapon swapping or runes/sigils that rely on having my health above a certain threshold due to having a more aggressive playstyle so he helps me find sigils/runes that mesh more with my playstyle while also boosting my DPS if I'm playing a profession focused on DPS).

> >

> > Granted, this also has to do with the fact that I absolutely refuse to PUG anything unless I'm playing with my friend and guildmates. You're gonna encounter toxic situations where meters are abused more if you're PUGing (especially PUGing alone).

>

> if a fight needs say 15k dps by the total party and the party is doing say 20 and we have a tool that is skewed towards dps only which is running out of context by people who have trained themselves to think that everyone should be min maxing gear and builds for much more deepeeess then yes the tool is an issue.

 

Nope.

 

If the group is comprised of people that want to complete the content in a manner calling for more than bare minimum DPS, or even for maximum possible DPS, then the tool is just a tool. If the people creating the group did not specify their intentions, or if the person joining the group ignored specified intentions for the run, resulting in a group whose members intentions are at cross purposes, then the issue is not at all with the tool.

 

No matter how many argue to the contrary it is not the screw driver that is at issue if someone uses it to stab another person.

[TheOrlyFactor.8341]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"TheOrlyFactor.8341" said:

> > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > @"TheOrlyFactor.8341" said:

> > > > Gonna echo what others have said in that meters aren't the problem and this is coming from someone who plays open world PvE about 90% of the time. They're a tool. Like any tool, it has positive and negative uses depending on the user and how they use it. Players would just fall back to other means to exclude players if meters weren't allowed (i.e. gear check pings, AP's, titles, etc.).

> > > >

> > > > I guess I'm lucky in that a close friend I play with in game uses a DPS meter to observe how I'm doing and give me advice on how to improve based on my playstyle preferences (i.e. I hate using runes/sigils that proc based on weapon swapping or runes/sigils that rely on having my health above a certain threshold due to having a more aggressive playstyle so he helps me find sigils/runes that mesh more with my playstyle while also boosting my DPS if I'm playing a profession focused on DPS).

> > > >

> > > > Granted, this also has to do with the fact that I absolutely refuse to PUG anything unless I'm playing with my friend and guildmates. You're gonna encounter toxic situations where meters are abused more if you're PUGing (especially PUGing alone).

> > >

> > > if a fight needs say 15k dps by the total party and the party is doing say 20 and we have a tool that is skewed towards dps only which is running out of context by people who have trained themselves to think that everyone should be min maxing gear and builds for much more deepeeess then yes the tool is an issue.

> >

> > Okay.

>

> logic is a killer.

 

Whatever helps you get to sleep at night, my dude. :+1:

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Ol Nik.2518" said:

> From my point of view, it looks more like this: Despite being a person with a disability I am bullied into participation in the Olympics. On top of that, I am ridiculed for not being able to.

Yes, but in the end, you _are_ participating in olympics. Which brings it to my point again - it's not the meters that are a problem, it's the content itself.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Ol Nik.2518" said:

> > From my point of view, it looks more like this: Despite being a person with a disability I am bullied into participation in the Olympics. On top of that, I am ridiculed for not being able to.

> Yes, but in the end, you _are_ participating in olympics. Which brings it to my point again - it's not the meters that are a problem, it's the content itself.

 

raids may be considered 'olympics' but other pve content is not, and that's the problem.

 

The ultimate question is what does calling out poor dps actually achieve on a non raid environment? nothing, because someone is not suddenly going to switch to a meta build and gear mid pug run because of meter emo - which means its just passive aggressive wasteful nonesense, or just plain ignorant abuse. The tool adds no value and a source of anti social behaviour when it is available and skewing a view on as aspect that is less relevant.

 

I can draw a comparison with software development. In software development we have tools that measure code quality through metrics, and experienced skilled developers use these metrics to weigh up the value of tackling technical debt by evaluating cost v benefit. Inexperienced people however or those who do not have the ability to evaluate the full picture and understand how to user this information in context can make bad choices to fix things that actually has a huge opportunity cost that they can't even see. This is the same as damage meters, people cause disruption to otherwise perfectly viable groups because a tool is being used in the wrong context and focusing on the wrong areas (i.e dps is **NOT** the most important aspect of a 5 man pug)

 

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said:

> > > From my point of view, it looks more like this: Despite being a person with a disability I am bullied into participation in the Olympics. On top of that, I am ridiculed for not being able to.

> > Yes, but in the end, you _are_ participating in olympics. Which brings it to my point again - it's not the meters that are a problem, it's the content itself.

>

> raids may be considered 'olympics' but other pve content is not, and that's the problem.

>

> The ultimate question is what does calling out poor dps actually achieve on a non raid environment? nothing, because someone is not suddenly going to switch to a meta build and gear mid pug run because of meter emo - which means its just passive aggressive wasteful nonesense, or just plain ignorant abuse. The tool adds no value and a source of anti social behaviour when it is available and skewing a view on as aspect that is less relevant.

 

The tool allows for informed action. The toxicity is player behavior and not okay. You are literally blaming a tool for incorrect behavior (which was present before the tool was available fyi).

 

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

>

> I can draw a comparison with software development. In software development we have tools that measure code quality through metrics, and experienced skilled developers use these metrics to weigh up the value of tackling technical debt by evaluating cost v benefit. Inexperienced people however or those who do not have the ability to evaluate the full picture and understand how to user this information in context can make bad choices to fix things that actually has a huge opportunity cost that they can't even see. This is the same as damage meters, people cause disruption to otherwise perfectly viable groups because a tool is being used in the wrong context and focusing on the wrong areas (i.e dps is **NOT** the most important aspect of a 5 man pug)

>

 

So you are advocating to remove all those tools you have because some people can not work with them? Sounds pretty insane but sure, if you seriously are in FAVOR of removing tools developers have at their disposal then I guess we can agree that damage meters should be removed. Somehow I don't think that is what you were going for was it? Aka your comparison is bad.