RisenHowl.2419 Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 If you want to play thief in a zerg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celsith.2753 Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > > @"Chyanne Waters.8719" said: > > > > What most thieves/deadeye do is roam anywhere from 1-5 people disrupting and ticking off other players a good one does quite a bit of damage and are feared by many. Grouping up with a squad is not what they do. If you want to do that use another profession of course do some research > > > > > > There are no rules on how anyone should or shouldn't, must or mustn't.. it is simply just the squad leaders silliness. I would hazard a guess that same squad leader was crying out for people to join squad when no one was bothered. > > > Every class has the ability to be good or bad because much of it comes down to the person behind the pixels. > > > OP if out it continues to happen, simply don't join the squad, do your own thing or just follow the zerg train, and when it wipes just go stealth, get out of the way of the train wreck and /laugh in chat... or swap servers and go pick them off for fun and karma. > > > > The „ silliness“ is called common sense. > > The Squad Leaders job is not only to command the fight but also to create a zerg that had the highest possible win chance. > > > > A Deadeye inside the squad is simply not worth much. > > > > Outside he is gold worth ( the good ones atleast). > > > > And no. > > Not every class has the potential to be usefull in Zerging. > > > > At this point, even Weaver can be seen are borderline usefull. > > As it is just a second choice Scourge. > > > > People need to except that not every class is good at everything. > > > > Thief/Rangers make unbelievable good roamers. > > > > > > I main a deadeye.. have mained a thief in wvw since day 1.. > It comes down to how you build it, how you play it. Sure we are excellent roamers, but a rabblefest requires very little skill other than stay tight, do your dmg, dodge the circles and pressure the blob to force them to unload cleanses, heals and dodges early before reeking havoc... Then again intelligent zergs don't just run in regardless, a good thief will loiter on the backline and pick targets, often key targets, then when the opportunity arises a quick shadow step dmg spike and maybe a clusterbomb or shadowflare/binding shadow then back out. Not every player or class rushes in clueless just cos its a zerg. I would hazard a guess most good roamers know how to play their class and be more than just a number in any zergwar. > > All of which can be done out of squad, with your own party of like classes being ideal. If you're in their backline you are are not near enough to the squad to be getting boons anyway so it's pointless for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Limodriver.4106 Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 k u play a gank class and u dont want to play alone maybe its time to make a useful class for zerg fight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 > @"Celsith.2753" said: > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > > > @"Chyanne Waters.8719" said: > > > > > What most thieves/deadeye do is roam anywhere from 1-5 people disrupting and ticking off other players a good one does quite a bit of damage and are feared by many. Grouping up with a squad is not what they do. If you want to do that use another profession of course do some research > > > > > > > > There are no rules on how anyone should or shouldn't, must or mustn't.. it is simply just the squad leaders silliness. I would hazard a guess that same squad leader was crying out for people to join squad when no one was bothered. > > > > Every class has the ability to be good or bad because much of it comes down to the person behind the pixels. > > > > OP if out it continues to happen, simply don't join the squad, do your own thing or just follow the zerg train, and when it wipes just go stealth, get out of the way of the train wreck and /laugh in chat... or swap servers and go pick them off for fun and karma. > > > > > > The „ silliness“ is called common sense. > > > The Squad Leaders job is not only to command the fight but also to create a zerg that had the highest possible win chance. > > > > > > A Deadeye inside the squad is simply not worth much. > > > > > > Outside he is gold worth ( the good ones atleast). > > > > > > And no. > > > Not every class has the potential to be usefull in Zerging. > > > > > > At this point, even Weaver can be seen are borderline usefull. > > > As it is just a second choice Scourge. > > > > > > People need to except that not every class is good at everything. > > > > > > Thief/Rangers make unbelievable good roamers. > > > > > > > > > > I main a deadeye.. have mained a thief in wvw since day 1.. > > It comes down to how you build it, how you play it. Sure we are excellent roamers, but a rabblefest requires very little skill other than stay tight, do your dmg, dodge the circles and pressure the blob to force them to unload cleanses, heals and dodges early before reeking havoc... Then again intelligent zergs don't just run in regardless, a good thief will loiter on the backline and pick targets, often key targets, then when the opportunity arises a quick shadow step dmg spike and maybe a clusterbomb or shadowflare/binding shadow then back out. Not every player or class rushes in clueless just cos its a zerg. I would hazard a guess most good roamers know how to play their class and be more than just a number in any zergwar. > > > > > > All of which can be done out of squad, with your own party of like classes being ideal. If you're in their backline you are are not near enough to the squad to be getting boons anyway so it's pointless for you. interesting concept.. wrong imo but interesting, on my heal bot ya think ima going to run into a zerg and go toe to toe or maybe support form backline... I get my boons just fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celsith.2753 Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > @"Celsith.2753" said: > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > > > > @"Chyanne Waters.8719" said: > > > > > > What most thieves/deadeye do is roam anywhere from 1-5 people disrupting and ticking off other players a good one does quite a bit of damage and are feared by many. Grouping up with a squad is not what they do. If you want to do that use another profession of course do some research > > > > > > > > > > There are no rules on how anyone should or shouldn't, must or mustn't.. it is simply just the squad leaders silliness. I would hazard a guess that same squad leader was crying out for people to join squad when no one was bothered. > > > > > Every class has the ability to be good or bad because much of it comes down to the person behind the pixels. > > > > > OP if out it continues to happen, simply don't join the squad, do your own thing or just follow the zerg train, and when it wipes just go stealth, get out of the way of the train wreck and /laugh in chat... or swap servers and go pick them off for fun and karma. > > > > > > > > The „ silliness“ is called common sense. > > > > The Squad Leaders job is not only to command the fight but also to create a zerg that had the highest possible win chance. > > > > > > > > A Deadeye inside the squad is simply not worth much. > > > > > > > > Outside he is gold worth ( the good ones atleast). > > > > > > > > And no. > > > > Not every class has the potential to be usefull in Zerging. > > > > > > > > At this point, even Weaver can be seen are borderline usefull. > > > > As it is just a second choice Scourge. > > > > > > > > People need to except that not every class is good at everything. > > > > > > > > Thief/Rangers make unbelievable good roamers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I main a deadeye.. have mained a thief in wvw since day 1.. > > > It comes down to how you build it, how you play it. Sure we are excellent roamers, but a rabblefest requires very little skill other than stay tight, do your dmg, dodge the circles and pressure the blob to force them to unload cleanses, heals and dodges early before reeking havoc... Then again intelligent zergs don't just run in regardless, a good thief will loiter on the backline and pick targets, often key targets, then when the opportunity arises a quick shadow step dmg spike and maybe a clusterbomb or shadowflare/binding shadow then back out. Not every player or class rushes in clueless just cos its a zerg. I would hazard a guess most good roamers know how to play their class and be more than just a number in any zergwar. > > > > > > > > > > All of which can be done out of squad, with your own party of like classes being ideal. If you're in their backline you are are not near enough to the squad to be getting boons anyway so it's pointless for you. > > interesting concept.. wrong imo but interesting, on my heal bot ya think ima going to run into a zerg and go toe to toe or maybe support form backline... I get my boons just fine You're prob right, its not like I have any experience playing thief in zerg or anything.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampage.7145 Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 > @"Squirrel.6318" said: > Second day trying to get into WvWvW again, since release year, my first day was pretty good, and then today I kept getting kicked out of the squads today because i'm a thief/deadeye....Is this normal or is my server just being kitten? like it doesn't make any sense because the squad isn't even close to maxing out. They just don't want me in there for being a thief/deadeye. Is this how it is now? It's no fun playing alone, but at the same time, I don't want to make another character because my deadeye is my main. :( They kick you so you do not leech boons/heals out the squad, they wanna prioritize the useful classes instead, you can still follow tho, just no need to be in a squad that is made so zerg classes can share heals/boons with each other. As a thief you are a ganker u should play on the sides of the battle try gank lonely players etc, so you are not useful to the squad, having them giving you heals and boons would be a waste to them when they could be giving those to a more useful class instead if that makes sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinnel.4369 Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 In the squad you can do your job of scouting, flanking, picking squishies, finishing downs, etc AND get participation. Many thieves don't know how to do this/many commanders don't know the value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xZombieTaco.5809 Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > @"Chyanne Waters.8719" said: > There are no rules on how anyone should or shouldn't, must or mustn't.. it is simply just the squad leaders silliness. I would hazard a guess that same squad leader was crying out for people to join squad when no one was bothered. Its a completely selfish class compared to other roaming builds such as Boonbeast, Chrono, Holosmith, all provide some sort of group benefit. Thief is a completely selfish class when it comes to group play. I say this as a thief main, but also as a tag. I'd much rather have a mesmer doing scouting than a thief. A chrono has 10x more group utility than a thief weather it be veil, portals, or AoE CCs and boonshare. While I understand what you're trying to say, but thief has no role in a squad. Even in the role as a "Commander sniper" a boonbeast does it better in the current meta setting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xZombieTaco.5809 Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 > @"Tinnel.4369" said: > In the squad you can do your job of scouting, flanking, picking squishies, finishing downs, etc AND get participation. Many thieves don't know how to do this/many commanders don't know the value. Other classes do it better though in this current meta setting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chorazin.4107 Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 Squad spots are reserved for the core zerg classes. You might get in on a DD vault thief, but mostly the squad is for the sustain/DPS ball. So FB's, Scourges, Heralds make up the core, an occasional SB, Scrapper or Tempest. The DE whilst doing great single target damage doesnt do AoE, say you down someone at 1500 rng in the enemy zerg, ok great. Now hes down in the middle of their zerg and will get auto revived. It's why AoE dmg is king, you need to be able to drop targets and then drop mass AoE cleave on top of them. You might even snag an additional couple of rezzers. DE's, one shot SB's, etc etc usually all lurk around the main zerg just waiting for sniping opportunities. Or roam, these squad classes, Scourges, FB's, Hammer Heralds etc, they do not roam well. Well not like a condi Mirage or DE can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RisenHowl.2419 Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 > @"xZombieTaco.5809" said: > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > @"Chyanne Waters.8719" said: > > There are no rules on how anyone should or shouldn't, must or mustn't.. it is simply just the squad leaders silliness. I would hazard a guess that same squad leader was crying out for people to join squad when no one was bothered. > > Its a completely selfish class compared to other roaming builds such as Boonbeast, Chrono, Holosmith, all provide some sort of group benefit. Thief is a completely selfish class when it comes to group play. I say this as a thief main, but also as a tag. I'd much rather have a mesmer doing scouting than a thief. A chrono has 10x more group utility than a thief weather it be veil, portals, or AoE CCs and boonshare. > > While I understand what you're trying to say, but thief has no role in a squad. Even in the role as a "Commander sniper" a boonbeast does it better in the current meta setting DE has no role in a squad, vault DD can output as much damage and CC as a weaver though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinnel.4369 Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 > @"xZombieTaco.5809" said: > > @"Tinnel.4369" said: > > In the squad you can do your job of scouting, flanking, picking squishies, finishing downs, etc AND get participation. Many thieves don't know how to do this/many commanders don't know the value. > > Other classes do it better though in this current meta setting Like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonNeonite.1048 Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 You don't need to be in the squad, unless it's for participation. If it's a squad that is running an organized meta server comp, roaming classes like thieves are not needed. They can roam around the tag if they want, but you don't want a map full of them. We can almost have a map full of rangers on EBG, who never join an open squad. They don't complain, apart from when they get farmed by organized zerg, but maybe it's just the state of our Server and link right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > oh and yes it is 'normal' > > Normal implies universality, which is not accurate. Some, perhaps even 'many', commanders insist on Meta builds for squad/zergs, so they will reject/eject any thieves, along with Holos, non-Medi Scrappers, non SB Warriors, Renegades, Reapers, and any guardian not playing FIrebrand. Mesmers tend to get a pass because of portals, veil, gravity well/pulls, and because Mesmers get a free pass in GW2 all the time anyways ever (not bitter, I promise). > > BUT, there are commanders who run open squads and will accept any profession, the only requirement being to stay on tag. Maybe I'm just uber lucky on my server - I dunno - but I'd say about 30% of the commanders who run open squads on my server will take anyone. The other 70%? Yeah, they go for meta builds. > > But even out of the squad, you can play a vital role in fights, and you are ideally equipped to ambush and pick off enemy reinforcements as they run back to their tag during a fight. Any zerg DPS is likely full glass so they will be easy pickings for a DE. > normal does not imply universality, it implies the illusion of it wich highly depends on point of view. for a human nearly everything can be normal depending on the point of view. however i said 'normal' more in the sense of it being rather common. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiawal.2351 Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 OP, those making the squad are players just like you. Nobody can tell them how they should play. Just create a squad and try to make it work your way. Doesn't matter if ends in failure, you will learn, and that's a huge win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zephyra.4709 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 The question you should be asking yourself is, **what do I bring of value to warrant being included in organised squad composition as a thief/DE regarding zerging?** The answer is not much **because other classes exist which do the job better**. There will always be a *meta* and any decent commander will set up a squad with those base foundations in mind (Firebrand, Scourge, Rev, the rest are fillers e.g; mesmer veil, tempest, spellbreaker offensive/defensive winds, I still see Scrappers at times). It all depends on the individual commander... yes nasty ones exist. I assume you must have had a bad run-in with the latter. At the end of the day the best you can do is directly communicate with the comm and let them know what you bring to the table in terms of being a DE and hope they give you a chance. Prove that you can generate downs, finish them, don't get clapped in one hit, don't be a free bag for the enemy. **Chorazin.4107** Makes very fair points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"Chorazin.4107" said: > Squad spots are reserved for the core zerg classes. You might get in on a DD vault thief, but mostly the squad is for the sustain/DPS ball. So FB's, Scourges, Heralds make up the core, an occasional SB, Scrapper or Tempest. > > The DE whilst doing great single target damage doesnt do AoE, say you down someone at 1500 rng in the enemy zerg, ok great. Now hes down in the middle of their zerg and will get auto revived. It's why AoE dmg is king, you need to be able to drop targets and then drop mass AoE cleave on top of them. You might even snag an additional couple of rezzers. > > DE's, one shot SB's, etc etc usually all lurk around the main zerg just waiting for sniping opportunities. Or roam, these squad classes, Scourges, FB's, Hammer Heralds etc, they do not roam well. Well not like a condi Mirage or DE can. depends how your trying to play your opposite zerg.. most decent tags will want to splinter their oppositions zerg and pressure them to dump their support/utility skills.. once this is achieved then backline classes like thief will mop them up pretty fast. Like I've said it's about knowing how to play your class/build effectively in each situation. A zerg has both a frontline and a backline... whilst you may have preference on what you want, and that is any squad leaders prerogative it does not mean any specific class has no part to play or is of no use so must go roam. Wvw is already a struggle in terms of numbers and coverage, for many servers so for open tags to start discriminating against classes only serves to exacerbate the issue. Not everyone seeks to be a solo roamer, especially when there is already disparity in the matchup making roaming that much harder. With alliances incoming if that same discrimination is allowed to carry over it's likely only going to to hurt the mode more imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanAlcedo.3281 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > @"Chorazin.4107" said: > > Squad spots are reserved for the core zerg classes. You might get in on a DD vault thief, but mostly the squad is for the sustain/DPS ball. So FB's, Scourges, Heralds make up the core, an occasional SB, Scrapper or Tempest. > > > > The DE whilst doing great single target damage doesnt do AoE, say you down someone at 1500 rng in the enemy zerg, ok great. Now hes down in the middle of their zerg and will get auto revived. It's why AoE dmg is king, you need to be able to drop targets and then drop mass AoE cleave on top of them. You might even snag an additional couple of rezzers. > > > > DE's, one shot SB's, etc etc usually all lurk around the main zerg just waiting for sniping opportunities. Or roam, these squad classes, Scourges, FB's, Hammer Heralds etc, they do not roam well. Well not like a condi Mirage or DE can. > > depends how your trying to play your opposite zerg.. most decent tags will want to splinter their oppositions zerg and pressure them to dump their support/utility skills.. once this is achieved then backline classes like thief will mop them up pretty fast. > Like I've said it's about knowing how to play your class/build effectively in each situation. > A zerg has both a frontline and a backline... whilst you may have preference on what you want, and that is any squad leaders prerogative it does not mean any specific class has no part to play or is of no use so must go roam. > Wvw is already a struggle in terms of numbers and coverage, for many servers so for open tags to start discriminating against classes only serves to exacerbate the issue. Not everyone seeks to be a solo roamer, especially when there is already disparity in the matchup making roaming that much harder. With alliances incoming if that same discrimination is allowed to carry over it's likely only going to to hurt the mode more imo. Zergs having a frontline and backline isn’t true since god knows how long. If you are a skilled roamer, then you should know how wvw and Squad setup works. And no. Its extremely rare for a thief to „ mop them up“. Because two things need to be true: A.) The thief must be REALLY good B.) The enemy must be kitten brain dead. Alliances wont discriminate people for their class choice but for skill and knowledge. If you are an amazing thief then surely Alliances will want you as roamer. But knowledge is to know that there are better choices for general zerging. Thief/Rangers QQing all day about not getting in a squad usually lack both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gebrechen.5643 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"Balsa.3951" said: > i play guard and stopped joining squads in wvw no need for that anyway to many wanna be commanders try to force ur build to what they "read" somewhere is right. > > than the WVWer wondering why nobody want join the wvw mode and with less ppl doin so anet has less motivation to improve wvw... > > win win i guess Wait, what I write now may break your heart, but.. that's how it works. Builds are optimized for group play. It's the same as in PvE raids. You try to maximize the support/damage/healing your class can bring. It's a numbers game and numbers the important factor here. It's not something "someone writes somewhere" but a mathematical calculation. Your build may be fine, but it's not best at what will be expected from you. In the end the rule is very easy: Only the commander decides who joins his squad. If you have problem with this just make your own squad and do your stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadMed.3846 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 They're concerned that you'll steal their boons and run away. You're a thief after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadMed.3846 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"gebrechen.5643" said: > > @"Balsa.3951" said: > > i play guard and stopped joining squads in wvw no need for that anyway to many wanna be commanders try to force ur build to what they "read" somewhere is right. > > > > than the WVWer wondering why nobody want join the wvw mode and with less ppl doin so anet has less motivation to improve wvw... > > > > win win i guess > > Wait, what I write now may break your heart, but.. that's how it works. Builds are optimized for group play. It's the same as in PvE raids. You try to maximize the support/damage/healing your class can bring. It's a numbers game and numbers the important factor here. > It's not something "someone writes somewhere" but a mathematical calculation. Your build may be fine, but it's not best at what will be expected from you. > > In the end the rule is very easy: Only the commander decides who joins his squad. If you have problem with this just make your own squad and do your stuff. It's also the lieutenant who can decide who joins the squad. Sometimes I see a commander and lieutenant only running in squad and rest refusing to join. At the end of the day, all that matters is the player base supporting the commander. If you want to lead a pug group then it's important to be more patient and tolerant of diversity is classes and skill levels. Make the best of what you have rather than worry about numbers. Educate and encourage rather than force and upset the crowd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"BadMed.3846" said: > Sometimes I see a commander and lieutenant only running in squad and rest refusing to join. If you know that for a fact it means you are either the commander or the lieutenant so it seems like a non-issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadMed.3846 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"BadMed.3846" said: > > Sometimes I see a commander and lieutenant only running in squad and rest refusing to join. > If you know that for a fact it means you are either the commander or the lieutenant so it seems like a non-issue. Seems like you don't know how to join and leave the squad. Top left corner mate. Look carefully. It's right there. And there was never any issues. Thanks for dropping by with such valuable analysis. Appreciate your time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dynomite.5834 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 the conversation kind of devolved here into squad and commander tag but to summarize - regardless of what personal opinions are, the tag has the right to accept/kick whomever they want. People may think it's stupid but it's true - they can control the group. As a ranger myself, I don't join squads and quite honestly don't miss it - why join? I listen in discord and keep up. Getting the boons/heals doesn't really apply because I'm not frontline pushing with the classes that can give boons or healing so it doesn't really add much. My feelings aren't hurt to not be in the squad (plus I can park and get a drink/food whenever I want) and not get told "stay on tag!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanAlcedo.3281 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"BadMed.3846" said: > They're concerned that you'll steal their boons and run away. You're a thief after all. Funny part is, this is 100% true. Mostly the thief is inside or near the squad blob pre fight. He gets boons and then runs of doing whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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