Disengagement wish for necro

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > I think this goes to a deeper question: If necro does have the tools on all specs to kick people's butts, then why should it get a good disengage toolset as well? I mean, let's be honest here, deficiencies exist on the classes, and for good reason. I'm thinking that if the kick butt toolset is that good, then other aspects of Necro should provide fair matchups for opponents; mobility and sustain are clearly two areas where that could happen. In otherwords, if your tools excel at committing you in a fight with good chance of success, other things need not be that good to balance this out.

> >

> > Personally, I think I would prefer necro to have strong offensive capability and I believe that should be it's focus. I can only think that adding 'fringe' abilities only makes the case weaker for maintaining the class identity.

>

> I agree to a point. I’d just be nice to be able to disengage in scanario’s that are often unavoidable and unsinkable like 3 opponents trying to gank u lol or if a zergs turn and starts rolling ur way and ranged attacks eat u fast because it takes so long to wurm tele and even if u can u have nothing unless u want to use shroud 3 and have shroud now on CD. For how bad shroud is for sustain these days and high ho not serving much protection s disengagement skill wouldn’t make necro op,especially if arena net wants to continue to leave them out of the multiple block/invulnerability party lol

 

I think that's where the discussion has to transition from a class having the appropriate tools to a player thinking about how they engage with their team mates to address deficiencies; the transition between tactics and strategy. I don't think a class should provide any player with the tools to ignore either of those. IMO, that's what makes a good game. Not just thinking about what to do in the moment, but also the best way how to do it before the moment arrives.

 

Yup, it sucks to get jumped and ganked by 3 people ... but what's wrong with that? IMO, that's how PVP should work. Frankly, I don't think there should be a way to escape that scenario. Everything being equal, 3 people should pwn a loner runner.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Lol I’m mean yeah but I sucks seeing coming and knowing u cant do anything but fight or get destroyed from behind while running. I’m not a necro main by a far stretch so maybe necros mobility is decent for players who play it often,was just wishful thinking lol

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> I think this goes to a deeper question: If necro does have the tools on all specs to kick people's butts, then why should it get a good disengage toolset as well? I mean, let's be honest here, deficiencies exist on the classes, and for good reason. I'm thinking that if the kick butt toolset is that good, then other aspects of Necro should provide fair matchups for opponents; mobility and sustain are clearly two areas where that could happen. In otherwords, if your tools excel at committing you in a fight with good chance of success, other things need not be that good to balance this out.

 

Because other specs have things like blocks, evades, and invuln to stay incombat while having tools to also kick necros but :P Burst meta. teehee!

 

But looking at the entire statement you have listed above this means possibly one or two things. From your perspective necro does not have the tools to kick other professions buts properly

or

Other professions need to loose some of their sustain tools because they also have the tools to kick other professions butts thus they should not have things that keep their buts from getting kicked..... (i might be completely wrong for even saying this lol just stay with me)

 

>

> Personally, I think I would prefer necro to have strong offensive capability and I believe that should be it's focus. I can only think that adding 'fringe' abilities only makes the case weaker for maintaining the class identity.

 

Core

- slightly lacks in offensive capability but is by far the most tanky of the 3 specs. Dependent on conditioning foes reduce and sustain their incoming damage damage output and be more mobile than they are.

 

Reaper

- Great offensive capability but its sustain takes a hit as a result, Yet still lacks greater chasing capability, still dependent on conditioning foes to make them slow enough to catch.

 

Scourge

- Decent offensive capability via conditions considering that this is partly a support spec, sustain is questionable depending on the build the user chooses, Great zone pressure and aoe cleave via shades. Also a good boon manager. Also dependent on conditioning foes to be more mobile than they are.

 

In short class identity is soaking damage through hp (lacks traits and tools on boosting this effect) while conditioning foes down to be weaker than they are on on the same footing as them. How ever in a game where movement skills are not effected by hindering conditions anymore, Condi clense is a must in generous amounts, and its main cc fear is the weakest hard cc in the game due to how many counters it has via break stun, stab, resistance, and condi clear. on a profession that lacks a way to get itself out of trouble block off incoming damage well..... now we have a problem we are stuck in the middle of the great question. What should necro get to make it better more offensive tools or more defensive ones for things like disengage. This is the million dollar question we all want the answer XD.

 

Granted..... a sudden surprise necro in to the middle of a fight usually wins the fight because an unnoticed necro is a deadly one. So maybe thats the key.

;) stealthnecro2020 increase your deadly surprise effectiveness entering combat by no less than 5 times.... Vote Now! This add was supported and paid for by the Black Lion Trading Company.... Lol.

 

Or maybe just a lil short jaunt like blink with a break target that might actually help too. then again its hard line trying to figure out what out right disengage worthy and whats something to help you stay in the fight.

[kodesh.2851]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> Necro has always had gbage mobility. Whether it’s reapers slow gs attacks or its sustain(lack of blocks or invulnerability)nor damage being any higher than most classes I think necro deserves atleast one reliable disengagement ability so it isn’t the sitting duck to kiting etc. Is that asking too much and if not what disengagement skill would u think would suit necro?

 

Reaper has amazing mobility if you know where to find it. Runes of Speed + Speed of Shadows trait. Perma 99% swiftness. I take spectral walk and have no problems kiting or disengaging unless totally overwhelmed by multiple player's cc. Even then can often escape ;)

[EremiteAngel.9765]

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:

> From your post I tried the snow leopard (and made a Norn just to test it)

>

> Lord what an amazing skill. This should be BIS over any other skill for roaming.

>

> I think the bigger thing here other than the long range dash, is the on demand stealth...4-5 seconds of stealth every 10 seconds is the best disengage a necro could ask for.

 

I would agree snow leopard is the bis elite for general pug group roaming where disengagement tools are important.

 

I sometimes take it with spectral walk and wurm and even managed to out run a soulbeast over a short distance lol...

 

Which is kind of sad because our own class have no disengagement options that measure up to it.

 

Which was also why I previously suggested changing the flesh golem elite to transfer the golem charge effects to the necromancer.

 

Just imagine the necro getting the charge effects...1200 range dash + stability + remove immobilize + knockdown... drools...

[Lexan.5930]

Necro has some really good mobility tools but they are outshone by a lot of other classes. Some simple aol changes would be making sand swell a .25 cast time instead of 1 second and reducing the barrier. And shortening the cooldown of summon flesh wurm and reducing the damage it does

[MethaneGas.8357]

Centuries later and people still didn't learn how to use wurm properly :/

If you're using it properly, it has no cast time.

[KrHome.1920]

> @"MethaneGas.8357" said:

> Centuries later and people still didn't learn how to use wurm properly :/

> If you're using it properly, it has no cast time.

Using it "properly" (e.g. casting while kiting or after exiting shroud to benefit from quickness) denies its flexibility and therefore the skill becomes unreliable by definition.

 

If you want to use wurm under pressure (which is exactly what a teleport should be useful for) you are fucked.

 

Necros using wurm do always look like tryhards that at the end of the day are easy to outplay.

 

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"MethaneGas.8357" said:

> Centuries later and people still didn't learn how to use wurm properly :/

> If you're using it properly, it has no cast time.

 

Its not that they dont know how to use it its more likely because wurm is too situational and need updates. Even when used properly the skill can yield unexpected or undesired results a bit too often.

Long cast time, prone to be interrupted if you try to use it fresh while trying to disengage

 

Well place it early you are doing it wrong....

Ok...Once again long cast time this is still pretty silly.

You have now placed your wurm and its ready for you before you dive into the fight. You have now told anyone who saw you do it that "I have placed a wurm here it is... this is where im going to attempt to teleport to if things go bad."

Because you do not have eyes in the back of your head you cant alway be looking at the wurm if you want to fight effectively. Another player sees the wurm and burst it down with no effort killing it. Removing one of your 3 utilities you have given up for a clunky outdated skill.

 

I've used wurm before and currently if i had to be bluntly honest its a total waste in most situations and not worth using as a disengage. Wurm as a disengage is still living in 2014 and in need of some QoL changes.

 

In short the skill is too risky and too unstable, Generally speaking one of the following happens

- Either it works and you get away,

- It works and you die shortly after porting because a foe with greater mobility caught you anyways or you got shot from 1200 range.

- It fails to teleport fully or at all due to path issues and you get killed / caught

- The wurm is killed instantly by another player and you have no disengage and now have one less utility.

 

The cons of the skill simply outright outweigh the pros of it. I know a few necros do use wurm and thats fine but generally i get better results with just running away on foot or staying in the fight and keeping my 3rd utility what ever that might be, spectral armor/ warlk, or even spectral grasp.

 

I dont plan on using wurm till they honestly flip the cast around allowing instant movement so its not so easily read on where you want to go, make it more like a trap so its position is hidden till some one steps on it or gets within range of it, allows its dead body to linger after killed thus still allowing the necro to port to it even if some one kills it instantly.

[MethaneGas.8357]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"MethaneGas.8357" said:

> > Centuries later and people still didn't learn how to use wurm properly :/

> > If you're using it properly, it has no cast time.

>

>

> Well place it early you are doing it wrong....

> Ok...Once again long cast time this is still pretty silly.

> You have now placed your wurm and its ready for you before you dive into the fight. You have now told anyone who saw you do it that "I have placed a wurm here it is... this is where im going to attempt to teleport to if things go bad."

> Because you do not have eyes in the back of your head you cant alway be looking at the wurm if you want to fight effectively. Another player sees the wurm and burst it down with no effort killing it. Removing one of your 3 utilities you have given up for a clunky outdated skill.

>

> In short the skill is too risky and too unstable, Generally speaking one of the following happens

> - Either it works and you get away,

> - It works and you die shortly after porting because a foe with greater mobility caught you anyways or you got shot from 1200 range.

> - It fails to teleport fully or at all due to path issues and you get killed / caught

> - The wurm is killed instantly by another player and you have no disengage and now have one less utility.

>

> I dont plan on using wurm till they honestly flip the cast around allowing instant movement so its not so easily read on where you want to go, make it more like a trap so its position is hidden till some one steps on it or gets within range of it, allows its dead body to linger after killed thus still allowing the necro to port to it even if some one kills it instantly.

 

Been using the wurm basically since the game came out and the only way to really use it correctly is to place it down before a fight. It totally and utterly defeats its purpose as a stun break and as a teleport if you head into a fight, wait to get under pressure, and then scramble to summon it. At that point it's not even your "oh-shit" button. Rushing in with the wurm un-summoned was never how the skill was designed. It was designed as a pre-planned teleport. You choose before hand where you want to escape to, and when the situation happens, you will instantly teleport to it with Necrotic Traversal. Most Necros I see make the mistake of putting it right next to a point or in plane view, which CAN be okay, but you can also put the wurm 900000 feet from you and you'll still port in its direction, even over obstacles that can nicely hide your wurm (which is in some ways is better than a normal teleport because the wurm can instantly put an obstacle between you and your enemy, whereas most other teleports only port you to where you have line of sight). There's good/safe spots to put the wurm that don't bug out 99% of the time. For example I have usual spots where I put it down on each map, depending on which point I am at. I think it's just a bit annoying for most people to figure out what works and what doesn't because it's not as straight forward as other ports and people just end up hating the skill after using it for only a few matches. It can be a bit wonky aweird on certain terrain, but it can most definitely be used effectively if you understand how it works.

 

In terms of the wurm being killed - again - it shouldn't happen. Even when facing good players, they almost never kill the wurm, and if you realize they are trying to kill your wurm, put extra effort to hide it next time. Even when good players figure out how you're disengaging, even they rarely waste time on the wurm. I've been told for years that "people kill the wurm" but from playing thousands of games, that's not what I've experienced. And that might just be careful placement of the wurm.

 

Last thing.... If you do need to use it mid-combat, which can happen pretty often in longer fights, then just watch for its cooldown so you can be ready to put it down. As soon as it's off cooldown, if there's a fight going on, put it somewhere preemptively - somewhere you know you'd want to disengage if the shit hits the fan.... do it even if it takes you a few secs set up. Don't wait until you NEED a teleport to summon the wurm - it should almost always be summoned somewhere on the map.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"MethaneGas.8357" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"MethaneGas.8357" said:

> > > Centuries later and people still didn't learn how to use wurm properly :/

> > > If you're using it properly, it has no cast time.

> >

> >

> > Well place it early you are doing it wrong....

> > Ok...Once again long cast time this is still pretty silly.

> > You have now placed your wurm and its ready for you before you dive into the fight. You have now told anyone who saw you do it that "I have placed a wurm here it is... this is where im going to attempt to teleport to if things go bad."

> > Because you do not have eyes in the back of your head you cant alway be looking at the wurm if you want to fight effectively. Another player sees the wurm and burst it down with no effort killing it. Removing one of your 3 utilities you have given up for a clunky outdated skill.

> >

> > In short the skill is too risky and too unstable, Generally speaking one of the following happens

> > - Either it works and you get away,

> > - It works and you die shortly after porting because a foe with greater mobility caught you anyways or you got shot from 1200 range.

> > - It fails to teleport fully or at all due to path issues and you get killed / caught

> > - The wurm is killed instantly by another player and you have no disengage and now have one less utility.

> >

> > I dont plan on using wurm till they honestly flip the cast around allowing instant movement so its not so easily read on where you want to go, make it more like a trap so its position is hidden till some one steps on it or gets within range of it, allows its dead body to linger after killed thus still allowing the necro to port to it even if some one kills it instantly.

>

>I think it's just a bit annoying for most people to figure out what works and what doesn't because it's not as straight forward as other ports and people just end up hating the skill after using it for only a few matches. And that can be just its wonky design and how it doesn't port on certain terrain, but it can most definitely be used effectively if you understand how it works.

 

This bit here hits the nail on the head. As i said its a QoL issue. A skill should not be this way generally

Like i said its not so much that people dont know to "try" and hide the work or to "place it before entering combat" its still overly situational and overly situational tools in this game tend not to be good options.

 

My point was not to argue that the wurm cant be effective because it can. But it lacks a standard of control that is often found in other skills without that standard of control people will quickly throw it to the side for something more stable.

 

Simply making the wurm hide itself when nothing i in range for it to attack to hit it would go along way.

 

 

 

[MethaneGas.8357]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"MethaneGas.8357" said:

> > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > @"MethaneGas.8357" said:

> > > > Centuries later and people still didn't learn how to use wurm properly :/

> > > > If you're using it properly, it has no cast time.

> > >

> > >

> > > Well place it early you are doing it wrong....

> > > Ok...Once again long cast time this is still pretty silly.

> > > You have now placed your wurm and its ready for you before you dive into the fight. You have now told anyone who saw you do it that "I have placed a wurm here it is... this is where im going to attempt to teleport to if things go bad."

> > > Because you do not have eyes in the back of your head you cant alway be looking at the wurm if you want to fight effectively. Another player sees the wurm and burst it down with no effort killing it. Removing one of your 3 utilities you have given up for a clunky outdated skill.

> > >

> > > In short the skill is too risky and too unstable, Generally speaking one of the following happens

> > > - Either it works and you get away,

> > > - It works and you die shortly after porting because a foe with greater mobility caught you anyways or you got shot from 1200 range.

> > > - It fails to teleport fully or at all due to path issues and you get killed / caught

> > > - The wurm is killed instantly by another player and you have no disengage and now have one less utility.

> > >

> > > I dont plan on using wurm till they honestly flip the cast around allowing instant movement so its not so easily read on where you want to go, make it more like a trap so its position is hidden till some one steps on it or gets within range of it, allows its dead body to linger after killed thus still allowing the necro to port to it even if some one kills it instantly.

> >

> >I think it's just a bit annoying for most people to figure out what works and what doesn't because it's not as straight forward as other ports and people just end up hating the skill after using it for only a few matches. And that can be just its wonky design and how it doesn't port on certain terrain, but it can most definitely be used effectively if you understand how it works.

>

> My point was not to argue that the wurm cant be effective because it can. But it lacks a standard of control that is often found in other skills without that standard of control people will quickly throw it to the side for something more stable.

>

> Simply making the wurm hide itself when nothing i in range for it to attack to hit it would go along way.

>

>

>

 

I agree 100% with making it invisible or something else along those lines. Or simply change it into a spectral portal skill that the necro can port back to, and it is unkillable and not a minion (kinda like that thief trap). Sadly I don't think something like this will happen, and people in the past suggested that you simply swap places with the wurm instead of killing it, but then we got Sand Swell instead...

 

Anyway... the age old Necro debates persist :P

[Shroud.2307]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"MethaneGas.8357" said:

> > Centuries later and people still didn't learn how to use wurm properly :/

> > If you're using it properly, it has no cast time.

>

> Its not that they dont know how to use it its more likely because wurm is too situational and need updates. Even when used properly the skill can yield unexpected or undesired results a bit too often.

> Long cast time, prone to be interrupted if you try to use it fresh while trying to disengage

>

> Well place it early you are doing it wrong....

> Ok...Once again long cast time this is still pretty silly.

> You have now placed your wurm and its ready for you before you dive into the fight. You have now told anyone who saw you do it that "I have placed a wurm here it is... this is where im going to attempt to teleport to if things go bad."

> Because you do not have eyes in the back of your head you cant alway be looking at the wurm if you want to fight effectively. Another player sees the wurm and burst it down with no effort killing it. Removing one of your 3 utilities you have given up for a clunky outdated skill.

>

> I've used wurm before and currently if i had to be bluntly honest its a total waste in most situations and not worth using as a disengage. Wurm as a disengage is still living in 2014 and in need of some QoL changes.

>

> In short the skill is too risky and too unstable, Generally speaking one of the following happens

> - Either it works and you get away,

> - It works and you die shortly after porting because a foe with greater mobility caught you anyways or you got shot from 1200 range.

> - It fails to teleport fully or at all due to path issues and you get killed / caught

> - The wurm is killed instantly by another player and you have no disengage and now have one less utility.

>

> The cons of the skill simply outright outweigh the pros of it. I know a few necros do use wurm and thats fine but generally i get better results with just running away on foot or staying in the fight and keeping my 3rd utility what ever that might be, spectral armor/ warlk, or even spectral grasp.

>

> I dont plan on using wurm till they honestly flip the cast around allowing instant movement so its not so easily read on where you want to go, make it more like a trap so its position is hidden till some one steps on it or gets within range of it, allows its dead body to linger after killed thus still allowing the necro to port to it even if some one kills it instantly.

 

Although I agree with most of what you're saying, I also think it's pretty well invaluable in small scale WvW. Placing it behind walls or LOS and knowing where a fight is going to move can be a life saver as much as a game changer. I don't disagree that there are many times it fails or that it's situational, as I'd said I believe much of what you've said is true. However, if Wurm were ever to be buffed, I think reducing the cast time to 1/2 second would be plenty enough. An instant cast would make it a flat out better version of Mesmer's Blink. Insta-cast summon a stunbreak + teleport that you can port to at any distance (though the range you port is the same no matter how far from it you are) or just double tap to port to. With the kind of damage Reaper is capable of, and how punishing it is to be near a Scourge, I think it'd be too strong. I know a lot of people will disagree with me but, I don't think it should ever be insta-cast.

 

If I were to change Wurm I'd do it like this;

Reduce cast time to 1/2 second

Increase range of teleport to 1,500

Remove Poison and replace with AOE Fear

Alter Wurm so that it spits 1 second Immobilize instead of projectiles. That, or it instead of attacking it feeds the Necromancer a bit of Life Force every few seconds.

 

Even if pre-summoning it is kind of a gimmick and the skill is clunky overall, I still think it's quite strong in it's current form. A little boost to make it more competitive would be nice though.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Somebody's got to be the slowest. If you give necromancer a bunch of mobility and disengage skills, then we aren't really solving the problem. We're just moving the problem onto another profession. Now they become the slowest, and the cycle continues.

 

In theory, the necromancer should be the stronges. In a straight up fight they should be either the best, or second best with special conditions that allow them to beat the best reliably. That is because the inability to disengage means that the necro has to be one of the strongest brawlers in the game, because otherwise they'll just lose to the faster, stronger class.

[Nimon.7840]

> @"kodesh.2851" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > Necro has always had gbage mobility. Whether it’s reapers slow gs attacks or its sustain(lack of blocks or invulnerability)nor damage being any higher than most classes I think necro deserves atleast one reliable disengagement ability so it isn’t the sitting duck to kiting etc. Is that asking too much and if not what disengagement skill would u think would suit necro?

>

> Reaper has amazing mobility if you know where to find it. Runes of Speed + Speed of Shadows trait. Perma 99% swiftness. I take spectral walk and have no problems kiting or disengaging unless totally overwhelmed by multiple player's cc. Even then can often escape ;)

 

But you also loose a lot for taking runes of speed.

And it won't give enough mobility to outplay other classes, only if you are smarter than the opponent player. But then you can also play another rune.

 

Also getting boon removed or corrupted makes you loose your whole mobility.

 

Even with runes of speed you won't be able to have better matchups against classes with a lot of mobility (looking at ranger and thief here).

 

I'm currently playing a pretty tanky build on reaper with fireworks rune. Yes the boons can be removed as well, but you won't loose the movespeed even while not having swiftness. And it lets me outplay people as well.

 

Also moving faster than your supports in groupplax can be very annoying for the supports, as they will not hit you with their abilities pretty often.

 

 

[KrHome.1920]

If any movement mechanic available for necro would work in actual gameplay I would use it. I like mobility and I would build around it. What I even like more is the reaper mechanic, so I am stuck in some kind of frustration.

 

Let's face it:

- Speed Rune - not worth the effort (you lose ~20% of damage compared to scholar and people will still catch you or be able to run away with ease - that 20% of damage is often better to just burst before they can counterplay)

- Wurm - wasted utility slot (even poison cloud adds more sustain than the clunky wurm)

- Spectral Walk - decent! Honestly, it's a must pick right next to spectral armor for power builds: condi cleanse (even in shroud!), LF gain (even in shroud!), swiftness, stunbreak, option to fool your target

- Scourge Portal: cast time, 900 range, only the most vulnerable necro spec has access to it... forget about it! On core and reaper this skill would be nice.

 

9 out of 10 times a utility skill like NCSY!, Plague Signet, Corrupt Boon... even CPC... will improve your outcome much more than wurm in its current state could ever do.

[ZDragon.3046]

 

> @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"MethaneGas.8357" said:

> > > Centuries later and people still didn't learn how to use wurm properly :/

> > > If you're using it properly, it has no cast time.

> >

> > Its not that they dont know how to use it its more likely because wurm is too situational and need updates. Even when used properly the skill can yield unexpected or undesired results a bit too often.

> > Long cast time, prone to be interrupted if you try to use it fresh while trying to disengage

> >

> > Well place it early you are doing it wrong....

> > Ok...Once again long cast time this is still pretty silly.

> > You have now placed your wurm and its ready for you before you dive into the fight. You have now told anyone who saw you do it that "I have placed a wurm here it is... this is where im going to attempt to teleport to if things go bad."

> > Because you do not have eyes in the back of your head you cant alway be looking at the wurm if you want to fight effectively. Another player sees the wurm and burst it down with no effort killing it. Removing one of your 3 utilities you have given up for a clunky outdated skill.

> >

> > I've used wurm before and currently if i had to be bluntly honest its a total waste in most situations and not worth using as a disengage. Wurm as a disengage is still living in 2014 and in need of some QoL changes.

> >

> > In short the skill is too risky and too unstable, Generally speaking one of the following happens

> > - Either it works and you get away,

> > - It works and you die shortly after porting because a foe with greater mobility caught you anyways or you got shot from 1200 range.

> > - It fails to teleport fully or at all due to path issues and you get killed / caught

> > - The wurm is killed instantly by another player and you have no disengage and now have one less utility.

> >

> > The cons of the skill simply outright outweigh the pros of it. I know a few necros do use wurm and thats fine but generally i get better results with just running away on foot or staying in the fight and keeping my 3rd utility what ever that might be, spectral armor/ warlk, or even spectral grasp.

> >

> > I dont plan on using wurm till they honestly flip the cast around allowing instant movement so its not so easily read on where you want to go, make it more like a trap so its position is hidden till some one steps on it or gets within range of it, allows its dead body to linger after killed thus still allowing the necro to port to it even if some one kills it instantly.

>

> Although I agree with most of what you're saying, I also think it's pretty well invaluable in small scale WvW. Placing it behind walls or LOS and knowing where a fight is going to move can be a life saver as much as a game changer. I don't disagree that there are many times it fails or that it's situational, as I'd said I believe much of what you've said is true. However, if Wurm were ever to be buffed, I think reducing the cast time to 1/2 second would be plenty enough. An instant cast would make it a flat out better version of Mesmer's Blink. Insta-cast summon a stunbreak + teleport that you can port to at any distance (though the range you port is the same no matter how far from it you are) or just double tap to port to. With the kind of damage Reaper is capable of, and how punishing it is to be near a Scourge, I think it'd be too strong. I know a lot of people will disagree with me but, I don't think it should ever be insta-cast.

 

I think you misunderstood me on my idea for instant cast. The way you wrote it out is not how i was envisioning it working. ( can go into more detail on that if you want)

 

I dont think reapers damage or scourge's damage is really a factor to be honest. No matter how good your damage is with scourge or reaper you will never do it as quickly as some of the other professions. Its practically impossible to do that kind of damage fast enough on reaper or socurge that you couldn't react to it to avoid, block, or move away from it.

 

More importantly if you are using a disengage skill to engage quickly i don't see the problem with reaper's or scourge's damage as you are now giving up your disengage to do it :astonished: Thats a tradeoff and taking proper risk for proper reward.

 

>

> If I were to change Wurm I'd do it like this;

> Reduce cast time to 1/2 second

> Increase range of teleport to 1,500

> Remove Poison and replace with AOE Fear

> Alter Wurm so that it spits 1 second Immobilize instead of projectiles. That, or it instead of attacking it feeds the Necromancer a bit of Life Force every few seconds.

>

> Even if pre-summoning it is kind of a gimmick and the skill is clunky overall, I still think it's quite strong in it's current form. A little boost to make it more competitive would be nice though.

 

I think replacing the poison with fear would be pointless as as the poison is. To be frank it shouldn't inflict any conditions when you teleport to it. That part of the skill is completely a waste if you are going to be using it as pure disengage. (chances are some one wont be near it if you are hiding it a people are implying) To be honest that part of the skill can just be removed all together for a new function or reduced cast or recharge.

 

This is where i go back to the skill is badly in need of QoL. People are playing around the skill and not every part of the skill is utilized. Even in your version of the skill that fear would be wasted 95% of situations if you are using it as methane describes as "Properly." It needs some tweaks then again all the minions do. Almost none of them have been touched since the games release.

 

If you want to give a minion that would inflict "Fear" it should be on the shadow fiends "Haunt" active skill.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> If any movement mechanic available for necro would work in actual gameplay I would use it. I like mobility and I would build around it. What I even like more is the reaper mechanic, so I am stuck in some kind of frustration.

>

> Let's face it:

> - Speed Rune - not worth the effort (you lose ~20% of damage compared to scholar and people will still catch you or be able to run away with ease - that 20% of damage is often better to just burst before they can counterplay)

> - Wurm - wasted utility slot (even poison cloud adds more sustain than the clunky wurm)

> - Spectral Walk - decent! Honestly, it's a must pick right next to spectral armor for power builds: condi cleanse (even in shroud!), LF gain (even in shroud!), swiftness, stunbreak, option to fool your target

> - Scourge Portal: cast time, 900 range, only the most vulnerable necro spec has access to it... forget about it! On core and reaper this skill would be nice.

>

> 9 out of 10 times a utility skill like NCSY!, Plague Signet, Corrupt Boon... even CPC... will improve your outcome much more than wurm in its current state could ever do.

 

Speed runes are good and totally worth the effort if you have a 2nd set of armor with the rune that you can use or if you only plan on doing pvp / wvw 1 set will do. Speed runes on necromancer are actually a blessing imo its one of the best mobility pickups you can start with. You lose some damage for not taking a damage rune but when people cant easily kite your damage or cant catch you when you are kiting it makes A MASSIVE difference. This actually makes things like spectral walk and speed of shadows feel much stronger than they normally would. I HIGHLY suggest trying them if you can fit them into your build. When combined with necros ability to constantly hinder enemy movement you basically have off brand super speed during a fight so long as you keep swiftness up.

 

There are many people who do not run scholar runes as they are not the best rune option for every profession or elite spec even more so when fighting other players. If you dont have a 1 shot burst set up and reaper and scourge do not have good ones then scholar runes in wvw or pvp are practically pointless to you. Better off with strength runes or something of similar nature where you are more likely to get the bonus all the time. vs just being above 90% hp which you wont be for long once in combat. you are not a rev, thief, or mesmer whom of which can do their burst from 900 range or stealth and knock sizable amounts of hp off another player instantly before taking damage. I wouldn't run scholar on necro unless it was for pve end game only or in pvp you had a pocket healer on your hip the whole time.

 

Wurm (from my personal experience) I agree can be a waste depending on how lucky you get but its factors are too random to be trusted. I like skills that will give me a set result not skills that can be totally unpredictable and require 3 step verification on setup. Ive used wurm... it can be of help in some situations but for the sake of stability i prefer other options

 

Spectral walk has never been stronger than it is right now. IT arguably the strongest spectral skill necro has at the moment. I almost always run this.

Scourge portal i dont care too much for but im not a scourge player i dislike scourge for the most part but thats my personal taste i cant get behind its play style (its too condition heavy for me)

 

I agree with your final statement though i dont agree with the skill you picked out. But its all the same yes. In my experience you are more likely to have a better outcome running some other utility over wurm than you would if running wurm in most cases.

[Shroud.2307]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

>

> > @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > @"MethaneGas.8357" said:

> > > > Centuries later and people still didn't learn how to use wurm properly :/

> > > > If you're using it properly, it has no cast time.

> > >

> > > Its not that they dont know how to use it its more likely because wurm is too situational and need updates. Even when used properly the skill can yield unexpected or undesired results a bit too often.

> > > Long cast time, prone to be interrupted if you try to use it fresh while trying to disengage

> > >

> > > Well place it early you are doing it wrong....

> > > Ok...Once again long cast time this is still pretty silly.

> > > You have now placed your wurm and its ready for you before you dive into the fight. You have now told anyone who saw you do it that "I have placed a wurm here it is... this is where im going to attempt to teleport to if things go bad."

> > > Because you do not have eyes in the back of your head you cant alway be looking at the wurm if you want to fight effectively. Another player sees the wurm and burst it down with no effort killing it. Removing one of your 3 utilities you have given up for a clunky outdated skill.

> > >

> > > I've used wurm before and currently if i had to be bluntly honest its a total waste in most situations and not worth using as a disengage. Wurm as a disengage is still living in 2014 and in need of some QoL changes.

> > >

> > > In short the skill is too risky and too unstable, Generally speaking one of the following happens

> > > - Either it works and you get away,

> > > - It works and you die shortly after porting because a foe with greater mobility caught you anyways or you got shot from 1200 range.

> > > - It fails to teleport fully or at all due to path issues and you get killed / caught

> > > - The wurm is killed instantly by another player and you have no disengage and now have one less utility.

> > >

> > > The cons of the skill simply outright outweigh the pros of it. I know a few necros do use wurm and thats fine but generally i get better results with just running away on foot or staying in the fight and keeping my 3rd utility what ever that might be, spectral armor/ warlk, or even spectral grasp.

> > >

> > > I dont plan on using wurm till they honestly flip the cast around allowing instant movement so its not so easily read on where you want to go, make it more like a trap so its position is hidden till some one steps on it or gets within range of it, allows its dead body to linger after killed thus still allowing the necro to port to it even if some one kills it instantly.

> >

> > Although I agree with most of what you're saying, I also think it's pretty well invaluable in small scale WvW. Placing it behind walls or LOS and knowing where a fight is going to move can be a life saver as much as a game changer. I don't disagree that there are many times it fails or that it's situational, as I'd said I believe much of what you've said is true. However, if Wurm were ever to be buffed, I think reducing the cast time to 1/2 second would be plenty enough. An instant cast would make it a flat out better version of Mesmer's Blink. Insta-cast summon a stunbreak + teleport that you can port to at any distance (though the range you port is the same no matter how far from it you are) or just double tap to port to. With the kind of damage Reaper is capable of, and how punishing it is to be near a Scourge, I think it'd be too strong. I know a lot of people will disagree with me but, I don't think it should ever be insta-cast.

>

> I think you misunderstood me on my idea for instant cast. The way you wrote it out is not how i was envisioning it working. ( can go into more detail on that if you want)

>

> I dont think reapers damage or scourge's damage is really a factor to be honest. No matter how good your damage is with scourge or reaper you will never do it as quickly as some of the other professions. Its practically impossible to do that kind of damage fast enough on reaper or socurge that you couldn't react to it to avoid, block, or move away from it.

>

> More importantly if you are using a disengage skill to engage quickly i don't see the problem with reaper's or scourge's damage as you are now giving up your disengage to do it :astonished: Thats a tradeoff and taking proper risk for proper reward.

>

> >

> > If I were to change Wurm I'd do it like this;

> > Reduce cast time to 1/2 second

> > Increase range of teleport to 1,500

> > Remove Poison and replace with AOE Fear

> > Alter Wurm so that it spits 1 second Immobilize instead of projectiles. That, or it instead of attacking it feeds the Necromancer a bit of Life Force every few seconds.

> >

> > Even if pre-summoning it is kind of a gimmick and the skill is clunky overall, I still think it's quite strong in it's current form. A little boost to make it more competitive would be nice though.

>

> I think replacing the poison with fear would be pointless as as the poison is. To be frank it shouldn't inflict any conditions when you teleport to it. That part of the skill is completely a waste if you are going to be using it as pure disengage. (chances are some one wont be near it if you are hiding it a people are implying) To be honest that part of the skill can just be removed all together for a new function or reduced cast or recharge.

>

> This is where i go back to the skill is badly in need of QoL. People are playing around the skill and not every part of the skill is utilized. Even in your version of the skill that fear would be wasted 95% of situations if you are using it as methane describes as "Properly." It needs some tweaks then again all the minions do. Almost none of them have been touched since the games release.

>

> If you want to give a minion that would inflict "Fear" it should be on the shadow fiends "Haunt" active skill.

 

If the Poison were replaced with Fear it could be a lot more effective as an engagement or chasing utility. It can already be used this way in small scale fights or situations that aren't 1v1's. Though even in 1v1's it can be done, it's just that it pretty well requires your opponent either to be braindead or making a huge mistake. Summon Flesh Wurm max range in front of you, activate Spectral Walk, port to Wurm and do what ever you want to do, and port back before SWalk ends. I do this a lot in WvW when I'm poking at zergs and it works the same way ( although in reverse ) as the swag stomp. Of course, it's burning two stunbreaks so I'm not saying it's practical. Just that if it were to be changed the way I've suggested, it could have a lot more offensive capability.

 

We can go in circles all day pointing out the short comings but the truth of the matter is that every skill isn't useful in every situation. Some are more niche than others but that doesn't mean they're useless as a whole. It would be nice for Wurm to see some buffs but personally, I feel it could have everything else about it removed as long as it still has the ability to port you to it at any time after you've summoned it and I'd be happy. But that's _removal,_ obviously I wouldn't want the cast time or cooldown increased or the range reduced or something. The cast time is the biggest thing for me as it stands. 1/2 second summon time could make a world of difference for it's potential uses.

 

 

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> If any movement mechanic available for necro would work in actual gameplay I would use it. I like mobility and I would build around it. What I even like more is the reaper mechanic, so I am stuck in some kind of frustration.

>

> Let's face it:

> - Speed Rune - not worth the effort (you lose ~20% of damage compared to scholar and people will still catch you or be able to run away with ease - that 20% of damage is often better to just burst before they can counterplay)

> - Wurm - wasted utility slot (even poison cloud adds more sustain than the clunky wurm)

> - Spectral Walk - decent! Honestly, it's a must pick right next to spectral armor for power builds: condi cleanse (even in shroud!), LF gain (even in shroud!), swiftness, stunbreak, option to fool your target

> - Scourge Portal: cast time, 900 range, only the most vulnerable necro spec has access to it... forget about it! On core and reaper this skill would be nice.

>

> 9 out of 10 times a utility skill like NCSY!, Plague Signet, Corrupt Boon... even CPC... will improve your outcome much more than wurm in its current state could ever do.

 

My personal experience between Flesh Wurm and Spectral Walk has been that Flesh Wurm is better in more situations.

 

A little thing to understand about Spectral Walk is that in a practical setting, if you are under pressure and you need to leave a fight, or gain enough distance from a fight in order to relieve yourself of this pressure, then you can't rely on spectral walk to do this. Spectral Walk works by anticipating when you will actually need it, and popping it a few seconds in advance before you actually need it. Then the question becomes, can you escape the fight in 10 seconds? ?How far will you actually get and can you successfully juke someone with it to disengage or relieve that pressure?

 

In most cases, I've found that Spectral Walk alone, is not enough, and that it only becomes viable when used with Runes of Speed, and Flesh Wurm. That's already 3 build options you have to sink in order to achieve disengagement, and that's more than what's really necessary.

 

In the defense of Flesh Wurm, it does exactly what any teleport does except it just needs to be pre-casted. It can be used as a VERTICAL teleport from low to high ground unlike spectral walk, and it can instantly relieve pressure at any time, as long as you spend that 1 second casting it at any point in your engagement. It can also be used as an offensive teleport (I've actually teleported into a zerg with this wurm, smushed a ranger with it in less than a few seconds, then yeeted out laughing my butt off as they chased me) .

 

I'm not dissing Spectral Walk...in fact it's very good, especially when used with Flesh Wurm and Rune of Speed.... I just think if you are to compare the two in terms of disengagement ability, Flesh Wurm wins in that regard.

[KrHome.1920]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> Speed runes are good and totally worth the effort if you have a 2nd set of armor with the rune that you can use or if you only plan on doing pvp / wvw 1 set will do.

I have a set and I can swap runes and sigils for free due to legendary gear. It does not make much of a difference to be honest.

 

The minimal stat combo that has enough burst to overwhelm thieves is full marauder. That's my baseline as I don't like being a freekill that is easy to peel.

 

For the 20% damage loss I have to change my gear to full berserk to maintain the damage. So I trade 4500 HP / 3500 LF for a faster running speed. That can work but it is a significant sustain loss - even marauder isn't that great in sustain for reapers.

 

> it makes A MASSIVE difference.

It actually did not when I tried it. Maybe I will test it again.

 

> There are many people who do not run scholar runes as they are not the best rune option for every profession or elite spec even more so when fighting other players.

A reaper that has not at least 2500 power, 60% crit chance, 200% critical damage (plus (!) Onslaught and Death Perception) or any equivalent stat combo is a weak reaper that can't kill well played condi scourges, not to mention thieves, holos or any bunker build: scrapper, evasion weaver, firebrand... movement speed isn't even a factor here, these builds will just facetank and outsustain you.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> The minimal stat combo that has enough burst to overwhelm thieves is full marauder. That's my baseline as I don't like being a freekill that is easy to peel.

>

> For the 20% damage loss I have to change my gear to full berserk to maintain the damage. So I trade 4500 HP / 3500 LF for a faster running speed. That can work but it is a significant sustain loss - even marauder isn't that great in sustain for reapers.

 

Vitality has such a minimal impact on sustain that it negligible. On Reaper sustain is all about how you manage your life force, and the 10 seconds you have until shroud comes off cooldown,

 

I have 19000 health on commanders gear, and me and a guildie 2v8, and 1v3yesterday in WVW consistently winning every outnumbered fight. I don’t run scholars but can push out 6k autos with death magic tree...there is no way you can convince me that anything other than scholars berserkers is viable, because there are many runes and stat combinations that work well, it’s not all about deeps.

 

I’ve 1v1d Zdragon in Spvp and he consistently beat me many times using Rune of Speed. Although it has a counter, he was able to still dish out loads of damage.

 

I understand that one shot builds and doing enough damage is important, but so is staying alive, and staying alive in more than just a single optimal situation. You do 0 Dps is when your dead, and sustain is the key to that, which Rune of speed definitely accomplishes in that regard.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > Speed runes are good and totally worth the effort if you have a 2nd set of armor with the rune that you can use or if you only plan on doing pvp / wvw 1 set will do.

> I have a set and I can swap runes and sigils for free due to legendary gear. It does not make much of a difference to be honest.

 

Its all about your speed. Against some classes which have blink like mobilities of course they will still out do you such as thief and possibly mesmer. But generally my damage hardly suffers enough to be able to kill anything that stands within range of my attacks for long enough.

>

> The minimal stat combo that has enough burst to overwhelm thieves is full marauder. That's my baseline as I don't like being a freekill that is easy to peel.

I can generally kill thieves but from my experince its more depending on how brave the thief is and how risky they play. A thief who does not allow for many mistakes and plays super safe will always give you issues no matter what stat combo you use. They are necros hard counter. If a thief is really good and wants to peel or kill you they will do it. If scourge you mayyyyyyy have a slightly better edge against them due to the sheer amount of zone control but generally if they want to get you and know how to play around you without making too many mistakes they can get you.

>

> For the 20% damage loss I have to change my gear to full berserk to maintain the damage. So I trade 4500 HP / 3500 LF for a faster running speed. That can work but it is a significant sustain loss - even marauder isn't that great in sustain for reapers.

>

> > it makes A MASSIVE difference.

> It actually did not when I tried it. Maybe I will test it again.

 

Its not about your damage here generally speaking in my case (reaper) my damage is more than good enough to kill anything that exhaust its "free outs" generally there has not been anything i couldnt kill with while using speed runes although some professions are harder to kill or more likely to kill me first however in those cases having more damage wouldnt have helped me as the damage i was getting hit with was simply put insta burst levels that 100 to 0 you or insta melting mesmer condi bombs etc.

>

> > There are many people who do not run scholar runes as they are not the best rune option for every profession or elite spec even more so when fighting other players.

> A reaper that has not at least 2500 power, 60% crit chance, 200% critical damage (plus (!) Onslaught and Death Perception) or any equivalent stat combo is a weak reaper that can't kill well played condi scourges, not to mention thieves, holos or any bunker build: scrapper, evasion weaver, firebrand... movement speed isn't even a factor here, these builds will just facetank and outsustain you.

 

Lol well i cant recall what my base power is but i know my crit chance is lower than 60% (intentionally) because once i start fighting my critical rate increases throughout the fight and i refuse to overcap on crit chance, that is literally the biggest waste a reaper can do. My critical chance is high enough and i do use DP and RO next time i log in ill take a look at my stats to see what my power is sitting at as well as my critical damage and get back to you on that. I'm no elitist, but last time i checked its not all about the numbers that determines if you can kill something or not. It part stats and build setup, part skill of your own, part skill of your foe, part your build vs their build steup, and the last part is the random factor that may or may not be applied which is help from allies or chaos from extra foes.

 

I'm not a firm believer that if you don't have exactly "x" number of "x" stat it automatically means you cant or can kill "y" thing. You can have maxed out toughness and still get 1 shot even more so if your skill does not match the ability to play that role.

 

As far as your claim for bunker build scrapper, evasion, weaver, and firebrands speed actually is a factor for reaper. It allows you to keep constant pressure on them. No class has a unlimited amount of skills even if they build tanky. Part of what allows builds like that to sustain is that they have way too much breathing room. Against reaper its quite easy to get room to breath. I wouldn't think anyone had issues with weaver vs reaper at the moment. Thats kind of funny to hear cause once im on them in shroud they usually just die if they dont make it to a tower or keep door.

 

Usually if something kills me its because i made a mistake or it was heavy condi or one shot in which case having more damage wouldn't have helped me from my perspective. My sustain is pretty good against builds that are not one shot insta burst and my damage is more than enough to kill anything that lets me hit it a few times. I dont blame my necros weaknesses on the speed runes though thats more so just the rest of my build setup running with low condi clense/xfer and boon rip/corrupt.

 

As a final side note perhaps its just not for you and thats fine, my job i not to make you use them just sharing information. Ive been using them since they were reworked in pvp modes so I'm pretty much so adapted to using them now. I struggle to play without them though. (it feels crazy slow in combat without them)

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:

> My personal experience between Flesh Wurm and Spectral Walk has been that Flesh Wurm is better in more situations.

>

> A little thing to understand about Spectral Walk is that in a practical setting, if you are under pressure and you need to leave a fight, or gain enough distance from a fight in order to relieve yourself of this pressure, then you can't rely on spectral walk to do this. Spectral Walk works by anticipating when you will actually need it, and popping it a few seconds in advance before you actually need it. Then the question becomes, can you escape the fight in 10 seconds? ?How far will you actually get and can you successfully juke someone with it to disengage or relieve that pressure?

 

I think spectral walk makes for the better combat option and it has more stable desires in pure utility(condi clense and life force gen), mobility increase, and disengage. While its disengage factor may not out right outweigh Wurm's instant movement in a random direction toward its location it brings a lot of other mechanics to the table that work without fail or undesired results. Its also easier to master use of than wurm and feels like less of hinder on giving up a utility.

Walk has disengage potential along with other tools while people at the moment only use wurm for pure disengage.

 

It depends really this is one of those situations where if you can get far enough away from the point you activated you need to be looking at that point to see if anyone is there or not. For example you can activate the skill and jump off a low bridge or a cliffside. Anyone who follows instantly loses 100% of all their pressure. Ive juke'ed small zergs in wvw with spectral walk because no one or too few people waited at the point i activated it. But you are still correct here.

>

> In most cases, I've found that Spectral Walk alone, is not enough, and that it only becomes viable when used with Runes of Speed.

^

this.... activate spectral walk.... become the flash :p

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:

 

> Walk has disengage potential along with other tools while people at the moment only use wurm for pure disengage.

>

> It depends really this is one of those situations where if you can get far enough away from the point you activated you need to be looking at that point to see if anyone is there or not. For example you can activate the skill and jump off a low bridge or a cliffside. Anyone who follows instantly loses 100% of all their pressure. Ive juke'ed small zergs in wvw with spectral walk because no one or too few people waited at the point i activated it. But you are still correct here.

 

 

I’m glad you brought that up. Another example, let’s say your in between a pincer attack, with a zerg due north of your position, and a couple players east, and your fighting someone at your current position. There’s no possible path to pick with spectral because if you teleport back, your in the path of that Zerg because your initial location is compromised...making running away the only option you have and that isn’t enough to disengage, with Flesh Wurm, you can at least gain some distance and have those south and west options to try and escape.

 

But ya spectral walks other effects are definitely very good and it was a hard choice to choose which utility to keep on my bar. I found for my own build that the disengage in WVW was more important than the condi cleanse and life force gain, which I already had enough of. But for other builds spectral walk would make sense