Discussion Thread: ArenaNet News of 21 February 2019 [Merged]

[IndigoSundown.5419]

The idea that MMO's are an investment is nothing new, even if it doesn't often get couched in those terms. MMO's as a genre tend to focus on long-term use of the game. Sure, GW2 can be viewed as a "casual" MMO which allows for drop-in play, but the typical MMO fan can see it as similar to the other MMO's out there. As long as that's the case, GW2 can be seen as an "investment" in the sense that by spending money on it, one is "investing" in long-term enjoyment.

 

There are some worrying trends in the gaming industry. Companies are producing barely functional (or not) games whose only seeming purpose is to be a "service" designed to milk money. While GW2 is very far from those types of games, asking whether the game is providing things to do that individual players enjoy is a consumer's right.

 

While GW2 's dollar/value ratio is quite high by comparison to other MMO's, the question of whether the delays in LW content, the relative scarcity of instanced PvE updates, and the lack of a third XPac announcement is a function of resources being diverted to other projects remains a possibility.

 

Whatever the business realities at ANet might be, these issues/concerns have led to a decline in confidence in ANet. In the end, game updates may continue as they have, or at a better cadence. That remains to be seen. Whether one is a doubter or an ANet defender, the reality is that confidence in the long-term attraction of an MMO is going to be a central issue in whether the game is attractive to more players or not. The "crisis of belief" -- as much as some want to pooh-pooh it -- is a serious issue that ANet needs to lay to rest as soon as they feasibly can. So, whether players have a "right" to being concerned is a moot point. The real issue for ANet is that some players are concerned.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Ryou.2398" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"Ryou.2398" said:

> > > > @"Roquen.5406" said:

> > > > I personally feel that people are missing something here when they defend Anet so blindly - **feel free to correct me on points where I am mistaken.**

> > > >

> > > > First off, I want to state that every business is out there to make money...I get that. What I think is important here is HOW they go about making that money.

> > > >

> > > > When Guild Wars 2 was announced there was a certain "passion" that seemed to come along with it. They had their manifesto with what they were going to do and how it was going to set this mmo apart from the rest. In some ways they really knocked it out of the park but in other ways it missed the mark. This is fine because nothing is perfect but the intention was there and early on you could see that they were committed to making changes for the better - or at least trying to.

> > > >

> > > > Eventually this all changed. I don't know if this was because they were being too ambitious or mismanaged. I can only speculate that it was most likely a little bit of both. At some point they flipped a switch and the game began to suffer greatly in all aspects.

> > > >

> > > > PvE - Content slowed to a crawl, updates got pushed back or cancelled entirely, different teams were merged to consolidate...further slowing content, and there seems to be an overall lack-of-communication. Look at the release of HoT as an example. There were three waves of testing for the elite specs, with detailed notes and comments on what they were trying to do. With player feedback, adjustments were made but by the time the third wave of changes were supposed to hit communication went silent. In fact I'm not sure if the third wave of changes ever made it in. We rarely ever saw communication like that again.

> > > >

> > > > PvP - Esports scene didn't do so well and from that point on it seemed pvp became stagnant. There has been pretty much one mode for six years. The other two modes put in were scrapped almost immediately rather than working to improve them and one was actually removed from the game (TDM). The balance here seems abysmally slow and often misses the mark of what is causing problems and some changes literally seem like random adjustments. Balance has been cut to two devs as far as I understand and I'm not even sure if it's just their side project? The "numbers" team tweaks internally different from the "balance" team and it seems that they don't often communicate.

> > > >

> > > > WvW - While a very ambitious mode in its own right it has been stagnant for the majority of its life even though there has been tons of feedback on what would make it something greater. It's gotten 1 map, world-relinking, some other small scale adjustments/additions, and a strange reward system that got pushed out very late. It's a system that seems to punish the casual player and in some ways I think it pushes new players out of the mode rather than welcoming them in.

> > > >

> > > > For a while you could see the writing on the wall. All these changes meant Anet's focus shifted - it was no longer about providing a quality game that would then provide a source of income for them. It became a cash cow that they wanted to milk as much as they could before it was done. The Gemstore got boosted and while it's great to have another avenue to support the company... they cashed in on it hard, from casino style lootboxes, mount passes, skins, outfits, etc. Some of these items even costing 1/3 of an entire expansion for a SINGLE skin.

> > > >

> > > > Let's look at the mount skins. Rather than releasing them all individually for a small price point, they locked them behind a casino style loot box. You had the option to buy them all outright but this was a lot more costly, especially if there was only one skin that you wanted. Eventually after the outcry they began to release certain individual skins at a much higher price point. The rational behind this was that, "It takes a lot of work to make these skins and not everyone would buy them all if we released them individually". Some of the skins do indeed look like a lot of effort was put into them but others were just simple reskins, sometimes of just one part of the mount. To me this meant that they weren't confident enough that their product would sell itself, so they had to force people to buy things they didn't want to get in order to get something they did want. I guess it's not necessarily a bad practice but I personally found it distasteful. I think the quality of your work should speak for itself - people buy things they like!

> > > >

> > > > To me it really seems that they went for the short term gain and in the end they are suffering because of it.

> > > >

> > > > Unfortunately, this is the fallout we are seeing today...

> > > >

> > > > **Now here is the thing...Anet needs us more than we need them.** If this product fails to meet the needs of its customers, they will just leave and find something else. If the player-base leaves Anet loses its source of income. Their livelihood depends on them providing a quality game for its player-base and when it fails to do that they suffer a lot more than we do, as we have just seen. This is why I believe that players have every right to be outspoken, upset, and to voice their opinions and concerns. They are upset because they care and they saw/see the potential for something that they really do love but it seems to be going off course for a while now.

> > >

> > > This is what I also observed since I started gw2 some years ago, honestly I do not think you could be more right but of course we have the constant defenders in the forum who constantly attempt to troll, or belittle any kind of constructive criticism that exists, and sometimes they over word things to make it seem like there is not a real issue.

> >

> > Sure, but there isn't any 'right' a player has to be upset about it. That's a ridiculous notion that somehow players are more vested in the game than simply clients of a service. They aren't. We get what we pay for, we can provide feedback ... to go to the point where we should be 'upset' is an misunderstanding of the relationship clients have with their service provider.

> >

> > The fact is that unless Anet set some explicit expectation on the delivery of something, no player can reasonably claim the right to be upset about something they impose their own expectations onto Anet. What is more reasonable is that we can say we would LIKE Anet to do some things better, but the notion we have the right to be upset for something Anet doesn't even set expectations for is just entitlement.

>

> Well this entire point is more based on your opinion or their opinion then fact though, what people have a right to be upset about can be objective and subjective depending on the entire picture as a whole, I personally believe anyone has a right to be upset when negative things keep happening to their class when they are not op for example while they have invested time and money into a game, time is just as important as anything else I do not think anyone could disagree with that.

 

No, that's not opinion, that's how things work. Anet never set explicit expectations for ANY of the things he listed and probably many of the others he didn't either. So if people think they have the right to be upset, it's only because they invented some reality imposed on Anet they think should be delivered.

 

Things you DO have the right to be upset about is when don't get something you pay for that Anet defined you would get for that money ... like $100 USD pays for 8000 gems. THAT'S an expectation. An expectation is not "Hey I don't like how you did this, I'm invoking my 'upset' rights". That's a completely meaningless approach to how this game serves it's clients. Clients do not have 'rights' to be upset if they don't like how a company allocates it's resources. You're 'rights' as a consumer here are what you get for what you paid ... and we already got what Anet said they would deliver for what we paid.

 

When players invest time and money in a game, it must be clear that that time and money is something they invest in THEMSELVES for entertainment. It is NOT an investment in Anet with the expectation they give you anything more than you already paid for access to the game/expansions and gems. If I go spend money to be entertained at a movie, that is NOT an investment in the movie theater. It's simply an exchange of cash for services rendered. The situation with GW2 is no different.

[Ryou.2398]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Ryou.2398" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"Ryou.2398" said:

> > > > > @"Roquen.5406" said:

> > > > > I personally feel that people are missing something here when they defend Anet so blindly - **feel free to correct me on points where I am mistaken.**

> > > > >

> > > > > First off, I want to state that every business is out there to make money...I get that. What I think is important here is HOW they go about making that money.

> > > > >

> > > > > When Guild Wars 2 was announced there was a certain "passion" that seemed to come along with it. They had their manifesto with what they were going to do and how it was going to set this mmo apart from the rest. In some ways they really knocked it out of the park but in other ways it missed the mark. This is fine because nothing is perfect but the intention was there and early on you could see that they were committed to making changes for the better - or at least trying to.

> > > > >

> > > > > Eventually this all changed. I don't know if this was because they were being too ambitious or mismanaged. I can only speculate that it was most likely a little bit of both. At some point they flipped a switch and the game began to suffer greatly in all aspects.

> > > > >

> > > > > PvE - Content slowed to a crawl, updates got pushed back or cancelled entirely, different teams were merged to consolidate...further slowing content, and there seems to be an overall lack-of-communication. Look at the release of HoT as an example. There were three waves of testing for the elite specs, with detailed notes and comments on what they were trying to do. With player feedback, adjustments were made but by the time the third wave of changes were supposed to hit communication went silent. In fact I'm not sure if the third wave of changes ever made it in. We rarely ever saw communication like that again.

> > > > >

> > > > > PvP - Esports scene didn't do so well and from that point on it seemed pvp became stagnant. There has been pretty much one mode for six years. The other two modes put in were scrapped almost immediately rather than working to improve them and one was actually removed from the game (TDM). The balance here seems abysmally slow and often misses the mark of what is causing problems and some changes literally seem like random adjustments. Balance has been cut to two devs as far as I understand and I'm not even sure if it's just their side project? The "numbers" team tweaks internally different from the "balance" team and it seems that they don't often communicate.

> > > > >

> > > > > WvW - While a very ambitious mode in its own right it has been stagnant for the majority of its life even though there has been tons of feedback on what would make it something greater. It's gotten 1 map, world-relinking, some other small scale adjustments/additions, and a strange reward system that got pushed out very late. It's a system that seems to punish the casual player and in some ways I think it pushes new players out of the mode rather than welcoming them in.

> > > > >

> > > > > For a while you could see the writing on the wall. All these changes meant Anet's focus shifted - it was no longer about providing a quality game that would then provide a source of income for them. It became a cash cow that they wanted to milk as much as they could before it was done. The Gemstore got boosted and while it's great to have another avenue to support the company... they cashed in on it hard, from casino style lootboxes, mount passes, skins, outfits, etc. Some of these items even costing 1/3 of an entire expansion for a SINGLE skin.

> > > > >

> > > > > Let's look at the mount skins. Rather than releasing them all individually for a small price point, they locked them behind a casino style loot box. You had the option to buy them all outright but this was a lot more costly, especially if there was only one skin that you wanted. Eventually after the outcry they began to release certain individual skins at a much higher price point. The rational behind this was that, "It takes a lot of work to make these skins and not everyone would buy them all if we released them individually". Some of the skins do indeed look like a lot of effort was put into them but others were just simple reskins, sometimes of just one part of the mount. To me this meant that they weren't confident enough that their product would sell itself, so they had to force people to buy things they didn't want to get in order to get something they did want. I guess it's not necessarily a bad practice but I personally found it distasteful. I think the quality of your work should speak for itself - people buy things they like!

> > > > >

> > > > > To me it really seems that they went for the short term gain and in the end they are suffering because of it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Unfortunately, this is the fallout we are seeing today...

> > > > >

> > > > > **Now here is the thing...Anet needs us more than we need them.** If this product fails to meet the needs of its customers, they will just leave and find something else. If the player-base leaves Anet loses its source of income. Their livelihood depends on them providing a quality game for its player-base and when it fails to do that they suffer a lot more than we do, as we have just seen. This is why I believe that players have every right to be outspoken, upset, and to voice their opinions and concerns. They are upset because they care and they saw/see the potential for something that they really do love but it seems to be going off course for a while now.

> > > >

> > > > This is what I also observed since I started gw2 some years ago, honestly I do not think you could be more right but of course we have the constant defenders in the forum who constantly attempt to troll, or belittle any kind of constructive criticism that exists, and sometimes they over word things to make it seem like there is not a real issue.

> > >

> > > Sure, but there isn't any 'right' a player has to be upset about it. That's a ridiculous notion that somehow players are more vested in the game than simply clients of a service. They aren't. We get what we pay for, we can provide feedback ... to go to the point where we should be 'upset' is an misunderstanding of the relationship clients have with their service provider.

> > >

> > > The fact is that unless Anet set some explicit expectation on the delivery of something, no player can reasonably claim the right to be upset about something they impose their own expectations onto Anet. What is more reasonable is that we can say we would LIKE Anet to do some things better, but the notion we have the right to be upset for something Anet doesn't even set expectations for is just entitlement.

> >

> > Well this entire point is more based on your opinion or their opinion then fact though, what people have a right to be upset about can be objective and subjective depending on the entire picture as a whole, I personally believe anyone has a right to be upset when negative things keep happening to their class when they are not op for example while they have invested time and money into a game, time is just as important as anything else I do not think anyone could disagree with that.

>

> No, that's not opinion, that's how things work. Anet never set explicit expectations for ANY of the things he listed and probably many of the others he didn't either. So if people think they have the right to be upset, it's only because they invented some reality imposed on Anet they think should be delivered.

>

> Things you DO have the right to be upset about is when don't get something you pay for that Anet defined you would get for that money ... like $100 USD pays for 8000 gems. THAT'S an expectation. An expectation is not "Hey I don't like how you did this, I'm invoking my 'upset' rights". That's a completely meaningless approach to how this game serves it's clients. Clients do not have 'rights' to be upset if they don't like how a company allocates it's resources. You're 'rights' as a consumer here are what you get for what you paid ... and we already got what Anet said they would deliver for what we paid.

>

> When players invest time and money in a game, it must be clear that that time and money is something they invest in THEMSELVES for entertainment. It is NOT an investment in Anet with the expectation they give you anything more than you already paid for access to the game/expansions and gems. If I go spend money to be entertained at a movie, that is NOT an investment in the movie theater. It's simply an exchange of cash for services rendered. The situation with GW2 is no different.

 

Lol kay then. I rather not waste time arguing with you .

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Ryou.2398" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"Ryou.2398" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > @"Ryou.2398" said:

> > > > > > @"Roquen.5406" said:

> > > > > > I personally feel that people are missing something here when they defend Anet so blindly - **feel free to correct me on points where I am mistaken.**

> > > > > >

> > > > > > First off, I want to state that every business is out there to make money...I get that. What I think is important here is HOW they go about making that money.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > When Guild Wars 2 was announced there was a certain "passion" that seemed to come along with it. They had their manifesto with what they were going to do and how it was going to set this mmo apart from the rest. In some ways they really knocked it out of the park but in other ways it missed the mark. This is fine because nothing is perfect but the intention was there and early on you could see that they were committed to making changes for the better - or at least trying to.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Eventually this all changed. I don't know if this was because they were being too ambitious or mismanaged. I can only speculate that it was most likely a little bit of both. At some point they flipped a switch and the game began to suffer greatly in all aspects.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > PvE - Content slowed to a crawl, updates got pushed back or cancelled entirely, different teams were merged to consolidate...further slowing content, and there seems to be an overall lack-of-communication. Look at the release of HoT as an example. There were three waves of testing for the elite specs, with detailed notes and comments on what they were trying to do. With player feedback, adjustments were made but by the time the third wave of changes were supposed to hit communication went silent. In fact I'm not sure if the third wave of changes ever made it in. We rarely ever saw communication like that again.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > PvP - Esports scene didn't do so well and from that point on it seemed pvp became stagnant. There has been pretty much one mode for six years. The other two modes put in were scrapped almost immediately rather than working to improve them and one was actually removed from the game (TDM). The balance here seems abysmally slow and often misses the mark of what is causing problems and some changes literally seem like random adjustments. Balance has been cut to two devs as far as I understand and I'm not even sure if it's just their side project? The "numbers" team tweaks internally different from the "balance" team and it seems that they don't often communicate.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > WvW - While a very ambitious mode in its own right it has been stagnant for the majority of its life even though there has been tons of feedback on what would make it something greater. It's gotten 1 map, world-relinking, some other small scale adjustments/additions, and a strange reward system that got pushed out very late. It's a system that seems to punish the casual player and in some ways I think it pushes new players out of the mode rather than welcoming them in.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > For a while you could see the writing on the wall. All these changes meant Anet's focus shifted - it was no longer about providing a quality game that would then provide a source of income for them. It became a cash cow that they wanted to milk as much as they could before it was done. The Gemstore got boosted and while it's great to have another avenue to support the company... they cashed in on it hard, from casino style lootboxes, mount passes, skins, outfits, etc. Some of these items even costing 1/3 of an entire expansion for a SINGLE skin.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Let's look at the mount skins. Rather than releasing them all individually for a small price point, they locked them behind a casino style loot box. You had the option to buy them all outright but this was a lot more costly, especially if there was only one skin that you wanted. Eventually after the outcry they began to release certain individual skins at a much higher price point. The rational behind this was that, "It takes a lot of work to make these skins and not everyone would buy them all if we released them individually". Some of the skins do indeed look like a lot of effort was put into them but others were just simple reskins, sometimes of just one part of the mount. To me this meant that they weren't confident enough that their product would sell itself, so they had to force people to buy things they didn't want to get in order to get something they did want. I guess it's not necessarily a bad practice but I personally found it distasteful. I think the quality of your work should speak for itself - people buy things they like!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > To me it really seems that they went for the short term gain and in the end they are suffering because of it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Unfortunately, this is the fallout we are seeing today...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > **Now here is the thing...Anet needs us more than we need them.** If this product fails to meet the needs of its customers, they will just leave and find something else. If the player-base leaves Anet loses its source of income. Their livelihood depends on them providing a quality game for its player-base and when it fails to do that they suffer a lot more than we do, as we have just seen. This is why I believe that players have every right to be outspoken, upset, and to voice their opinions and concerns. They are upset because they care and they saw/see the potential for something that they really do love but it seems to be going off course for a while now.

> > > > >

> > > > > This is what I also observed since I started gw2 some years ago, honestly I do not think you could be more right but of course we have the constant defenders in the forum who constantly attempt to troll, or belittle any kind of constructive criticism that exists, and sometimes they over word things to make it seem like there is not a real issue.

> > > >

> > > > Sure, but there isn't any 'right' a player has to be upset about it. That's a ridiculous notion that somehow players are more vested in the game than simply clients of a service. They aren't. We get what we pay for, we can provide feedback ... to go to the point where we should be 'upset' is an misunderstanding of the relationship clients have with their service provider.

> > > >

> > > > The fact is that unless Anet set some explicit expectation on the delivery of something, no player can reasonably claim the right to be upset about something they impose their own expectations onto Anet. What is more reasonable is that we can say we would LIKE Anet to do some things better, but the notion we have the right to be upset for something Anet doesn't even set expectations for is just entitlement.

> > >

> > > Well this entire point is more based on your opinion or their opinion then fact though, what people have a right to be upset about can be objective and subjective depending on the entire picture as a whole, I personally believe anyone has a right to be upset when negative things keep happening to their class when they are not op for example while they have invested time and money into a game, time is just as important as anything else I do not think anyone could disagree with that.

> >

> > No, that's not opinion, that's how things work. Anet never set explicit expectations for ANY of the things he listed and probably many of the others he didn't either. So if people think they have the right to be upset, it's only because they invented some reality imposed on Anet they think should be delivered.

> >

> > Things you DO have the right to be upset about is when don't get something you pay for that Anet defined you would get for that money ... like $100 USD pays for 8000 gems. THAT'S an expectation. An expectation is not "Hey I don't like how you did this, I'm invoking my 'upset' rights". That's a completely meaningless approach to how this game serves it's clients. Clients do not have 'rights' to be upset if they don't like how a company allocates it's resources. You're 'rights' as a consumer here are what you get for what you paid ... and we already got what Anet said they would deliver for what we paid.

> >

> > When players invest time and money in a game, it must be clear that that time and money is something they invest in THEMSELVES for entertainment. It is NOT an investment in Anet with the expectation they give you anything more than you already paid for access to the game/expansions and gems. If I go spend money to be entertained at a movie, that is NOT an investment in the movie theater. It's simply an exchange of cash for services rendered. The situation with GW2 is no different.

>

> Lol kay then. I rather not waste time arguing with you .

 

I beg to differ .. you take every chance you get.

[Ryou.2398]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Ryou.2398" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"Ryou.2398" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > @"Ryou.2398" said:

> > > > > > > @"Roquen.5406" said:

> > > > > > > I personally feel that people are missing something here when they defend Anet so blindly - **feel free to correct me on points where I am mistaken.**

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > First off, I want to state that every business is out there to make money...I get that. What I think is important here is HOW they go about making that money.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > When Guild Wars 2 was announced there was a certain "passion" that seemed to come along with it. They had their manifesto with what they were going to do and how it was going to set this mmo apart from the rest. In some ways they really knocked it out of the park but in other ways it missed the mark. This is fine because nothing is perfect but the intention was there and early on you could see that they were committed to making changes for the better - or at least trying to.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Eventually this all changed. I don't know if this was because they were being too ambitious or mismanaged. I can only speculate that it was most likely a little bit of both. At some point they flipped a switch and the game began to suffer greatly in all aspects.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > PvE - Content slowed to a crawl, updates got pushed back or cancelled entirely, different teams were merged to consolidate...further slowing content, and there seems to be an overall lack-of-communication. Look at the release of HoT as an example. There were three waves of testing for the elite specs, with detailed notes and comments on what they were trying to do. With player feedback, adjustments were made but by the time the third wave of changes were supposed to hit communication went silent. In fact I'm not sure if the third wave of changes ever made it in. We rarely ever saw communication like that again.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > PvP - Esports scene didn't do so well and from that point on it seemed pvp became stagnant. There has been pretty much one mode for six years. The other two modes put in were scrapped almost immediately rather than working to improve them and one was actually removed from the game (TDM). The balance here seems abysmally slow and often misses the mark of what is causing problems and some changes literally seem like random adjustments. Balance has been cut to two devs as far as I understand and I'm not even sure if it's just their side project? The "numbers" team tweaks internally different from the "balance" team and it seems that they don't often communicate.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > WvW - While a very ambitious mode in its own right it has been stagnant for the majority of its life even though there has been tons of feedback on what would make it something greater. It's gotten 1 map, world-relinking, some other small scale adjustments/additions, and a strange reward system that got pushed out very late. It's a system that seems to punish the casual player and in some ways I think it pushes new players out of the mode rather than welcoming them in.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > For a while you could see the writing on the wall. All these changes meant Anet's focus shifted - it was no longer about providing a quality game that would then provide a source of income for them. It became a cash cow that they wanted to milk as much as they could before it was done. The Gemstore got boosted and while it's great to have another avenue to support the company... they cashed in on it hard, from casino style lootboxes, mount passes, skins, outfits, etc. Some of these items even costing 1/3 of an entire expansion for a SINGLE skin.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Let's look at the mount skins. Rather than releasing them all individually for a small price point, they locked them behind a casino style loot box. You had the option to buy them all outright but this was a lot more costly, especially if there was only one skin that you wanted. Eventually after the outcry they began to release certain individual skins at a much higher price point. The rational behind this was that, "It takes a lot of work to make these skins and not everyone would buy them all if we released them individually". Some of the skins do indeed look like a lot of effort was put into them but others were just simple reskins, sometimes of just one part of the mount. To me this meant that they weren't confident enough that their product would sell itself, so they had to force people to buy things they didn't want to get in order to get something they did want. I guess it's not necessarily a bad practice but I personally found it distasteful. I think the quality of your work should speak for itself - people buy things they like!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > To me it really seems that they went for the short term gain and in the end they are suffering because of it.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Unfortunately, this is the fallout we are seeing today...

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > **Now here is the thing...Anet needs us more than we need them.** If this product fails to meet the needs of its customers, they will just leave and find something else. If the player-base leaves Anet loses its source of income. Their livelihood depends on them providing a quality game for its player-base and when it fails to do that they suffer a lot more than we do, as we have just seen. This is why I believe that players have every right to be outspoken, upset, and to voice their opinions and concerns. They are upset because they care and they saw/see the potential for something that they really do love but it seems to be going off course for a while now.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This is what I also observed since I started gw2 some years ago, honestly I do not think you could be more right but of course we have the constant defenders in the forum who constantly attempt to troll, or belittle any kind of constructive criticism that exists, and sometimes they over word things to make it seem like there is not a real issue.

> > > > >

> > > > > Sure, but there isn't any 'right' a player has to be upset about it. That's a ridiculous notion that somehow players are more vested in the game than simply clients of a service. They aren't. We get what we pay for, we can provide feedback ... to go to the point where we should be 'upset' is an misunderstanding of the relationship clients have with their service provider.

> > > > >

> > > > > The fact is that unless Anet set some explicit expectation on the delivery of something, no player can reasonably claim the right to be upset about something they impose their own expectations onto Anet. What is more reasonable is that we can say we would LIKE Anet to do some things better, but the notion we have the right to be upset for something Anet doesn't even set expectations for is just entitlement.

> > > >

> > > > Well this entire point is more based on your opinion or their opinion then fact though, what people have a right to be upset about can be objective and subjective depending on the entire picture as a whole, I personally believe anyone has a right to be upset when negative things keep happening to their class when they are not op for example while they have invested time and money into a game, time is just as important as anything else I do not think anyone could disagree with that.

> > >

> > > No, that's not opinion, that's how things work. Anet never set explicit expectations for ANY of the things he listed and probably many of the others he didn't either. So if people think they have the right to be upset, it's only because they invented some reality imposed on Anet they think should be delivered.

> > >

> > > Things you DO have the right to be upset about is when don't get something you pay for that Anet defined you would get for that money ... like $100 USD pays for 8000 gems. THAT'S an expectation. An expectation is not "Hey I don't like how you did this, I'm invoking my 'upset' rights". That's a completely meaningless approach to how this game serves it's clients. Clients do not have 'rights' to be upset if they don't like how a company allocates it's resources. You're 'rights' as a consumer here are what you get for what you paid ... and we already got what Anet said they would deliver for what we paid.

> > >

> > > When players invest time and money in a game, it must be clear that that time and money is something they invest in THEMSELVES for entertainment. It is NOT an investment in Anet with the expectation they give you anything more than you already paid for access to the game/expansions and gems. If I go spend money to be entertained at a movie, that is NOT an investment in the movie theater. It's simply an exchange of cash for services rendered. The situation with GW2 is no different.

> >

> > Lol kay then. I rather not waste time arguing with you .

>

> I beg to differ .. you take every chance you get.

 

You think whatever you want, you will anyways. It wont make a difference in my day.

[Obtena.7952]

It's not about me thinking what I want ... it's easy to check ... anyone can look at someone's posting history and see how you have replied to others.

[Ryou.2398]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> It's not about me thinking what I want ... it's easy to check ... anyone can look at someone's posting history and see how you have replied to others.

 

Looking at yours, you defend anet every chance you get and always argue with everyone else, if you want to call someone out for arguing its you, I always see you arguing in every class thread with others, I have in fact ignored most of those when I could of said something but I didnt so if anything that is evidence I do not argue with you every chance I get.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Ryou.2398" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > It's not about me thinking what I want ... it's easy to check ... anyone can look at someone's posting history and see how you have replied to others.

>

> Looking at yours, you defend anet every chance you get and always argue with everyone else, if you want to call someone out for arguing its you, I always see you arguing in every class thread with others, I have in fact ignored most of those when I could of said something but I didnt so if anything that is evidence I do not argue with you every chance I get.

 

Maybe ... that's usually what happens when you get lots of people that don't have much objectivity to their forum posts.

[Ryou.2398]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Ryou.2398" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > It's not about me thinking what I want ... it's easy to check ... anyone can look at someone's posting history and see how you have replied to others.

> >

> > Looking at yours, you defend anet every chance you get and always argue with everyone else, if you want to call someone out for arguing its you, I always see you arguing in every class thread with others, I have in fact ignored most of those when I could of said something but I didnt so if anything that is evidence I do not argue with you every chance I get.

>

> Maybe ... that's usually what happens when you get lots of people that don't have much objectivity to their forum posts.

 

Kay then.

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Ryou.2398" said:

> > > @"Roquen.5406" said:

> > > I personally feel that people are missing something here when they defend Anet so blindly - **feel free to correct me on points where I am mistaken.**

> > >

> > > First off, I want to state that every business is out there to make money...I get that. What I think is important here is HOW they go about making that money.

> > >

> > > When Guild Wars 2 was announced there was a certain "passion" that seemed to come along with it. They had their manifesto with what they were going to do and how it was going to set this mmo apart from the rest. In some ways they really knocked it out of the park but in other ways it missed the mark. This is fine because nothing is perfect but the intention was there and early on you could see that they were committed to making changes for the better - or at least trying to.

> > >

> > > Eventually this all changed. I don't know if this was because they were being too ambitious or mismanaged. I can only speculate that it was most likely a little bit of both. At some point they flipped a switch and the game began to suffer greatly in all aspects.

> > >

> > > PvE - Content slowed to a crawl, updates got pushed back or cancelled entirely, different teams were merged to consolidate...further slowing content, and there seems to be an overall lack-of-communication. Look at the release of HoT as an example. There were three waves of testing for the elite specs, with detailed notes and comments on what they were trying to do. With player feedback, adjustments were made but by the time the third wave of changes were supposed to hit communication went silent. In fact I'm not sure if the third wave of changes ever made it in. We rarely ever saw communication like that again.

> > >

> > > PvP - Esports scene didn't do so well and from that point on it seemed pvp became stagnant. There has been pretty much one mode for six years. The other two modes put in were scrapped almost immediately rather than working to improve them and one was actually removed from the game (TDM). The balance here seems abysmally slow and often misses the mark of what is causing problems and some changes literally seem like random adjustments. Balance has been cut to two devs as far as I understand and I'm not even sure if it's just their side project? The "numbers" team tweaks internally different from the "balance" team and it seems that they don't often communicate.

> > >

> > > WvW - While a very ambitious mode in its own right it has been stagnant for the majority of its life even though there has been tons of feedback on what would make it something greater. It's gotten 1 map, world-relinking, some other small scale adjustments/additions, and a strange reward system that got pushed out very late. It's a system that seems to punish the casual player and in some ways I think it pushes new players out of the mode rather than welcoming them in.

> > >

> > > For a while you could see the writing on the wall. All these changes meant Anet's focus shifted - it was no longer about providing a quality game that would then provide a source of income for them. It became a cash cow that they wanted to milk as much as they could before it was done. The Gemstore got boosted and while it's great to have another avenue to support the company... they cashed in on it hard, from casino style lootboxes, mount passes, skins, outfits, etc. Some of these items even costing 1/3 of an entire expansion for a SINGLE skin.

> > >

> > > Let's look at the mount skins. Rather than releasing them all individually for a small price point, they locked them behind a casino style loot box. You had the option to buy them all outright but this was a lot more costly, especially if there was only one skin that you wanted. Eventually after the outcry they began to release certain individual skins at a much higher price point. The rational behind this was that, "It takes a lot of work to make these skins and not everyone would buy them all if we released them individually". Some of the skins do indeed look like a lot of effort was put into them but others were just simple reskins, sometimes of just one part of the mount. To me this meant that they weren't confident enough that their product would sell itself, so they had to force people to buy things they didn't want to get in order to get something they did want. I guess it's not necessarily a bad practice but I personally found it distasteful. I think the quality of your work should speak for itself - people buy things they like!

> > >

> > > To me it really seems that they went for the short term gain and in the end they are suffering because of it.

> > >

> > > Unfortunately, this is the fallout we are seeing today...

> > >

> > > **Now here is the thing...Anet needs us more than we need them.** If this product fails to meet the needs of its customers, they will just leave and find something else. If the player-base leaves Anet loses its source of income. Their livelihood depends on them providing a quality game for its player-base and when it fails to do that they suffer a lot more than we do, as we have just seen. This is why I believe that players have every right to be outspoken, upset, and to voice their opinions and concerns. They are upset because they care and they saw/see the potential for something that they really do love but it seems to be going off course for a while now.

> >

> > This is what I also observed since I started gw2 some years ago, honestly I do not think you could be more right but of course we have the constant defenders in the forum who constantly attempt to troll, or belittle any kind of constructive criticism that exists, and sometimes they over word things to make it seem like there is not a real issue.

>

> Sure, but there isn't any 'right' a player has to be upset about it. That's a ridiculous notion that somehow players are more vested in the game than simply clients of a service. They aren't. We get what we pay for, we can provide feedback ... to go to the point where we should be 'upset' is an misunderstanding of the relationship clients have with their service provider.

>

> The fact is that unless Anet set some explicit expectation on the delivery of something, no player can reasonably claim the right to be upset about something they impose their own expectations onto Anet. What is more reasonable is that we can say we would LIKE Anet to do some things better, but the notion we have the right to be upset for something Anet doesn't even set expectations for is just entitlement.

 

I agree for the most part except that I do believe that players have the right to be upset. Being upset is an emotion, contained within our thoughts, and we all have the right to our own thoughts. So yes people have the right to think what they want, just as some people have the right to think that the world is flat.

[Kraggy.4169]

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > Many posters seen very confident in the detail about Anet working on unrelated side projects. It's this confirmed somewhere?

> > Yes, confirmed from multiple sources. Nothing very specific, due to NDA (and thus we don't know, for example, _how_ unrelated the projects were and even if all of them were unrelated), but we do know there was more than one such project in the work.

>

> I suppose the million dollar question for me is who planned this/who's idea was it.

>

> I guess I'll need to scourer around for sources. Sometimes YouTube personalities are keen on covering niche stuff like this.

 

I posted where the blame belonged and got a 3 day suspension for making "a personal attack against ArenaNet team members, teams, or the company as a whole" .. seems posting TRUTH about decisions isn't allowed here when it's critical of ANet's management.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"Ryou.2398" said:

> > > > @"Roquen.5406" said:

> > > > I personally feel that people are missing something here when they defend Anet so blindly - **feel free to correct me on points where I am mistaken.**

> > > >

> > > > First off, I want to state that every business is out there to make money...I get that. What I think is important here is HOW they go about making that money.

> > > >

> > > > When Guild Wars 2 was announced there was a certain "passion" that seemed to come along with it. They had their manifesto with what they were going to do and how it was going to set this mmo apart from the rest. In some ways they really knocked it out of the park but in other ways it missed the mark. This is fine because nothing is perfect but the intention was there and early on you could see that they were committed to making changes for the better - or at least trying to.

> > > >

> > > > Eventually this all changed. I don't know if this was because they were being too ambitious or mismanaged. I can only speculate that it was most likely a little bit of both. At some point they flipped a switch and the game began to suffer greatly in all aspects.

> > > >

> > > > PvE - Content slowed to a crawl, updates got pushed back or cancelled entirely, different teams were merged to consolidate...further slowing content, and there seems to be an overall lack-of-communication. Look at the release of HoT as an example. There were three waves of testing for the elite specs, with detailed notes and comments on what they were trying to do. With player feedback, adjustments were made but by the time the third wave of changes were supposed to hit communication went silent. In fact I'm not sure if the third wave of changes ever made it in. We rarely ever saw communication like that again.

> > > >

> > > > PvP - Esports scene didn't do so well and from that point on it seemed pvp became stagnant. There has been pretty much one mode for six years. The other two modes put in were scrapped almost immediately rather than working to improve them and one was actually removed from the game (TDM). The balance here seems abysmally slow and often misses the mark of what is causing problems and some changes literally seem like random adjustments. Balance has been cut to two devs as far as I understand and I'm not even sure if it's just their side project? The "numbers" team tweaks internally different from the "balance" team and it seems that they don't often communicate.

> > > >

> > > > WvW - While a very ambitious mode in its own right it has been stagnant for the majority of its life even though there has been tons of feedback on what would make it something greater. It's gotten 1 map, world-relinking, some other small scale adjustments/additions, and a strange reward system that got pushed out very late. It's a system that seems to punish the casual player and in some ways I think it pushes new players out of the mode rather than welcoming them in.

> > > >

> > > > For a while you could see the writing on the wall. All these changes meant Anet's focus shifted - it was no longer about providing a quality game that would then provide a source of income for them. It became a cash cow that they wanted to milk as much as they could before it was done. The Gemstore got boosted and while it's great to have another avenue to support the company... they cashed in on it hard, from casino style lootboxes, mount passes, skins, outfits, etc. Some of these items even costing 1/3 of an entire expansion for a SINGLE skin.

> > > >

> > > > Let's look at the mount skins. Rather than releasing them all individually for a small price point, they locked them behind a casino style loot box. You had the option to buy them all outright but this was a lot more costly, especially if there was only one skin that you wanted. Eventually after the outcry they began to release certain individual skins at a much higher price point. The rational behind this was that, "It takes a lot of work to make these skins and not everyone would buy them all if we released them individually". Some of the skins do indeed look like a lot of effort was put into them but others were just simple reskins, sometimes of just one part of the mount. To me this meant that they weren't confident enough that their product would sell itself, so they had to force people to buy things they didn't want to get in order to get something they did want. I guess it's not necessarily a bad practice but I personally found it distasteful. I think the quality of your work should speak for itself - people buy things they like!

> > > >

> > > > To me it really seems that they went for the short term gain and in the end they are suffering because of it.

> > > >

> > > > Unfortunately, this is the fallout we are seeing today...

> > > >

> > > > **Now here is the thing...Anet needs us more than we need them.** If this product fails to meet the needs of its customers, they will just leave and find something else. If the player-base leaves Anet loses its source of income. Their livelihood depends on them providing a quality game for its player-base and when it fails to do that they suffer a lot more than we do, as we have just seen. This is why I believe that players have every right to be outspoken, upset, and to voice their opinions and concerns. They are upset because they care and they saw/see the potential for something that they really do love but it seems to be going off course for a while now.

> > >

> > > This is what I also observed since I started gw2 some years ago, honestly I do not think you could be more right but of course we have the constant defenders in the forum who constantly attempt to troll, or belittle any kind of constructive criticism that exists, and sometimes they over word things to make it seem like there is not a real issue.

> >

> > Sure, but there isn't any 'right' a player has to be upset about it. That's a ridiculous notion that somehow players are more vested in the game than simply clients of a service. They aren't. We get what we pay for, we can provide feedback ... to go to the point where we should be 'upset' is an misunderstanding of the relationship clients have with their service provider.

> >

> > The fact is that unless Anet set some explicit expectation on the delivery of something, no player can reasonably claim the right to be upset about something they impose their own expectations onto Anet. What is more reasonable is that we can say we would LIKE Anet to do some things better, but the notion we have the right to be upset for something Anet doesn't even set expectations for is just entitlement.

>

> I agree for the most part except that I do believe that players have the right to be upset. Being upset is an emotion, contained within our thoughts, and we all have the right to our own thoughts. So yes people have the right to think what they want, just as some people have the right to think that the world is flat.

 

Then I guess my objection is if it's reasonable to be upset in this case. Being upset about how Anet develops it's products, especially if they deliver to players what they paid for isn't IMO.

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"Ryou.2398" said:

> > > > > @"Roquen.5406" said:

> > > > > I personally feel that people are missing something here when they defend Anet so blindly - **feel free to correct me on points where I am mistaken.**

> > > > >

> > > > > First off, I want to state that every business is out there to make money...I get that. What I think is important here is HOW they go about making that money.

> > > > >

> > > > > When Guild Wars 2 was announced there was a certain "passion" that seemed to come along with it. They had their manifesto with what they were going to do and how it was going to set this mmo apart from the rest. In some ways they really knocked it out of the park but in other ways it missed the mark. This is fine because nothing is perfect but the intention was there and early on you could see that they were committed to making changes for the better - or at least trying to.

> > > > >

> > > > > Eventually this all changed. I don't know if this was because they were being too ambitious or mismanaged. I can only speculate that it was most likely a little bit of both. At some point they flipped a switch and the game began to suffer greatly in all aspects.

> > > > >

> > > > > PvE - Content slowed to a crawl, updates got pushed back or cancelled entirely, different teams were merged to consolidate...further slowing content, and there seems to be an overall lack-of-communication. Look at the release of HoT as an example. There were three waves of testing for the elite specs, with detailed notes and comments on what they were trying to do. With player feedback, adjustments were made but by the time the third wave of changes were supposed to hit communication went silent. In fact I'm not sure if the third wave of changes ever made it in. We rarely ever saw communication like that again.

> > > > >

> > > > > PvP - Esports scene didn't do so well and from that point on it seemed pvp became stagnant. There has been pretty much one mode for six years. The other two modes put in were scrapped almost immediately rather than working to improve them and one was actually removed from the game (TDM). The balance here seems abysmally slow and often misses the mark of what is causing problems and some changes literally seem like random adjustments. Balance has been cut to two devs as far as I understand and I'm not even sure if it's just their side project? The "numbers" team tweaks internally different from the "balance" team and it seems that they don't often communicate.

> > > > >

> > > > > WvW - While a very ambitious mode in its own right it has been stagnant for the majority of its life even though there has been tons of feedback on what would make it something greater. It's gotten 1 map, world-relinking, some other small scale adjustments/additions, and a strange reward system that got pushed out very late. It's a system that seems to punish the casual player and in some ways I think it pushes new players out of the mode rather than welcoming them in.

> > > > >

> > > > > For a while you could see the writing on the wall. All these changes meant Anet's focus shifted - it was no longer about providing a quality game that would then provide a source of income for them. It became a cash cow that they wanted to milk as much as they could before it was done. The Gemstore got boosted and while it's great to have another avenue to support the company... they cashed in on it hard, from casino style lootboxes, mount passes, skins, outfits, etc. Some of these items even costing 1/3 of an entire expansion for a SINGLE skin.

> > > > >

> > > > > Let's look at the mount skins. Rather than releasing them all individually for a small price point, they locked them behind a casino style loot box. You had the option to buy them all outright but this was a lot more costly, especially if there was only one skin that you wanted. Eventually after the outcry they began to release certain individual skins at a much higher price point. The rational behind this was that, "It takes a lot of work to make these skins and not everyone would buy them all if we released them individually". Some of the skins do indeed look like a lot of effort was put into them but others were just simple reskins, sometimes of just one part of the mount. To me this meant that they weren't confident enough that their product would sell itself, so they had to force people to buy things they didn't want to get in order to get something they did want. I guess it's not necessarily a bad practice but I personally found it distasteful. I think the quality of your work should speak for itself - people buy things they like!

> > > > >

> > > > > To me it really seems that they went for the short term gain and in the end they are suffering because of it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Unfortunately, this is the fallout we are seeing today...

> > > > >

> > > > > **Now here is the thing...Anet needs us more than we need them.** If this product fails to meet the needs of its customers, they will just leave and find something else. If the player-base leaves Anet loses its source of income. Their livelihood depends on them providing a quality game for its player-base and when it fails to do that they suffer a lot more than we do, as we have just seen. This is why I believe that players have every right to be outspoken, upset, and to voice their opinions and concerns. They are upset because they care and they saw/see the potential for something that they really do love but it seems to be going off course for a while now.

> > > >

> > > > This is what I also observed since I started gw2 some years ago, honestly I do not think you could be more right but of course we have the constant defenders in the forum who constantly attempt to troll, or belittle any kind of constructive criticism that exists, and sometimes they over word things to make it seem like there is not a real issue.

> > >

> > > Sure, but there isn't any 'right' a player has to be upset about it. That's a ridiculous notion that somehow players are more vested in the game than simply clients of a service. They aren't. We get what we pay for, we can provide feedback ... to go to the point where we should be 'upset' is an misunderstanding of the relationship clients have with their service provider.

> > >

> > > The fact is that unless Anet set some explicit expectation on the delivery of something, no player can reasonably claim the right to be upset about something they impose their own expectations onto Anet. What is more reasonable is that we can say we would LIKE Anet to do some things better, but the notion we have the right to be upset for something Anet doesn't even set expectations for is just entitlement.

> >

> > I agree for the most part except that I do believe that players have the right to be upset. Being upset is an emotion, contained within our thoughts, and we all have the right to our own thoughts. So yes people have the right to think what they want, just as some people have the right to think that the world is flat.

>

> Then I guess my objection is if it's reasonable to be upset in this case. Being upset about how Anet develops it's products, especially if they deliver to players what they paid for isn't IMO.

 

Agreed, which is why my comparison was believing the earth is flat.

[SkyShroud.2865]

Negative feedbacks are still feedbacks but a lot of such feedbacks often being deemed as rude or offensive or stupid, then get censored by the mod team or the players themselves. These are valuable feedbacks because these feedbacks at least tell you how not to make your products anymore worse and these unnecessary censorship is simply equivalent to making a gigantic time bomb which hurts a lot more than any kind of bomb.

 

As for those who claim the game was not on maintenance mode, well, it is going that direction. The game contents of few initial years flow in much faster than now, it is no brainer that the amount of resources put in now and then are practically lesser. Even a dev that got layed off did say that the studio has not been putting gw2 as their primary focus, as much as it could be.

 

From business perspective, while it is important to come up with alternate source of income, it is also important not to over expand to the point that it impact your stability on the main products. Anet simple did that by doing not one but multiple projects. They got greedy and blind just because of the profits they have earn from gw2's initial success.

[Ryou.2398]

> @"SkyShroud.2865" said:

> Negative feedbacks are still feedbacks but a lot of such feedbacks often being deemed as rude or offensive or stupid, then get censored by the mod team or the players themselves. These are valuable feedbacks because these feedbacks at least tell you how not to make your products anymore worse and these unnecessary censorship is simply equivalent to making a gigantic time bomb which hurts a lot more than any kind of bomb.

>

> As for those who claim the game was not on maintenance mode, well, it is going that direction. The game contents of few initial years flow in much faster than now, it is no brainer that the amount of resources put in now and then are practically lesser. Even a dev that got layed off did say that the studio has not been putting gw2 as their primary focus, as much as it could be.

>

> From business perspective, while it is important to come up with alternate source of income, it is also important not to over expand to the point that it impact your stability on the main products. Anet simple did that by doing not one but multiple projects. They got greedy and blind just because of the profits they have earn from gw2's initial success.

 

I agree with most not sure if its really going to maintenance mode.

[Roquen.5406]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> **No, that's not opinion, that's how things work. Anet never set explicit expectations for ANY of the things he listed and probably many of the others he didn't either. So if people think they have the right to be upset, it's only because they invented some reality imposed on Anet they think should be delivered.**

>

> Things you DO have the right to be upset about is when don't get something you pay for that Anet defined you would get for that money ... like $100 USD pays for 8000 gems. THAT'S an expectation. An expectation is not "Hey I don't like how you did this, I'm invoking my 'upset' rights". That's a completely meaningless approach to how this game serves it's clients. Clients do not have 'rights' to be upset if they don't like how a company allocates it's resources. You're 'rights' as a consumer here are what you get for what you paid ... and we already got what Anet said they would deliver for what we paid.

>

> When players invest time and money in a game, it must be clear that that time and money is something they invest in THEMSELVES for entertainment. It is NOT an investment in Anet with the expectation they give you anything more than you already paid for access to the game/expansions and gems. If I go spend money to be entertained at a movie, that is NOT an investment in the movie theater. It's simply an exchange of cash for services rendered. The situation with GW2 is no different.

 

Okay, in response to the bolded part above:

 

 

Original 19 Gen two legendaries promised for free in 2012/2013, scrapped numerous times, used as a selling point for HoT, they are STILL missing 1 Gen 2 legendary two expansions later. So while not locked behind a second expansion content wise, it is time wise.

* https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/looking-ahead-guild-wars-2-in-2013/

* https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/When-others-legendaries/page/1

* https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/hot-new-legendary-weapons/

* There was a mega thread back then with all the information that shows what I talked about but I can't find it. Also, Anet changed their HoT presale page overtime based on the flack they were getting but they did originally list all being available upon release. It went from all 19 Legendaries, to 16 (no underwater), to a small batch, then to 4, then to 3 upon release with more later on.

* There are others that can back me up on this, I was searching through the old forums but it's a mess, I'll try to find what I am referring to and will update when I can.

 

Fractals

* https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-brand-new-fractals-of-the-mists-legendary-backpacks-ascended-salvaging-and-more/

* Legendary backpack from fractals was used as a selling point with HoT and I believe it took over 6 months post-HoT for them to release all steps/components to actually create the backpiece

* Leaderboards which no one asked for were promised and pushed back and back and ultimately scrapped

 

New legendary backpacks per each season promised in PvP, to date only one was ever released.

* https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/pvp-leagues-and-sloth-attack-on-guild-chat-a-summary/

*

 

PvP - Stagnant same mode, promised changes never coming to fruition or taking ages to release, balance slow and often misdirected, cheaters/win-traders/manipulators never really punished

* https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/participate-in-the-stronghold-pvp-public-beta-today/

* Mode was implemented but didn't do so well so it was pushed out of focus and just left as is outside of conquest, rather than attempting to implement the changes that could make it a viable mode.

 

WvW - Stagnant, once again changes slow and often misdirected, promised releases or changes never seeing the light of day or getting scrapped entirely

* https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/devon-carver-on-the-future-of-world-vs-world/

* https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/welcome-to-world-vs-world-season-1/

* https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/52335/wvw-content-updates#latest

* Some changes came through, others are still pending but overall I think the player-base feels world vs world needs more attention. Then you had seasons which only lasted one season if I recall correctly and was promptly scrapped

 

Different teams being merged - Fractal/Raids, slowing cadence even more

* https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/52153/introducing-the-systems-team/p1

* It seems that the intention was to have more communication/support throughout between teams, to improve work flow but overall it appears that content had slowed down (Just look at the release time between content, what was promised versus what was actually released)

 

Less and less communication overtime

* Take a look at this - https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/meet-the-herald-revenants-elite-specialization/

* This was done for every elite spec, the profession forums were filled with comments from the class specific devs, we had three rounds of "testing", with feedback/changes implemented

* That kind of communication throughout kinda fell flat

 

 

I am not sure why you state that I make baseless claims...there is no reason for me to do that. You also keep harping on the fact that "We don't have a right to complain because Anet doesn't owe the player-base anything". Instead I think it's important to focus on WHY people may be complaining. Like I said, people care and because they care they voice their concern and hope that changes can be made for the better. Ultimately, I think we should push for improvement rather than giving up on something entirely. You are absolutely correct that I can speak with my "wallet" by leaving but I would prefer that to be done only as a last resort.

[SkyShroud.2865]

> @"Ryou.2398" said:

> > @"SkyShroud.2865" said:

> > Negative feedbacks are still feedbacks but a lot of such feedbacks often being deemed as rude or offensive or stupid, then get censored by the mod team or the players themselves. These are valuable feedbacks because these feedbacks at least tell you how not to make your products anymore worse and these unnecessary censorship is simply equivalent to making a gigantic time bomb which hurts a lot more than any kind of bomb.

> >

> > As for those who claim the game was not on maintenance mode, well, it is going that direction. The game contents of few initial years flow in much faster than now, it is no brainer that the amount of resources put in now and then are practically lesser. Even a dev that got layed off did say that the studio has not been putting gw2 as their primary focus, as much as it could be.

> >

> > From business perspective, while it is important to come up with alternate source of income, it is also important not to over expand to the point that it impact your stability on the main products. Anet simple did that by doing not one but multiple projects. They got greedy and blind just because of the profits they have earn from gw2's initial success.

>

> I agree with most not sure if its really going to maintenance mode.

 

It is going that direction for sure, until it really did become full maintenance mode, then we all will know by then.

Anet has cancelled a lot of things for gw2 itself. There was a dev team for guild related development, gone. Legendary delayed and some missing or cancelled. SAB development, gone. Living story cycle length got increased, used to be a lot faster. Wvwers frequent complains of lack of developments. Pvp development start to slow down. Dungeons abandoned, nothing new to it. Finally, expansion announced not coming any time which just confirmed gw2 has not been the focus for a long time. That explains why the increasing amount of negative outcry over the years. The censorship keep it at bay but there is a limit on how long you can cover it up, afterall, profits speak for itself.

[Ryou.2398]

> @"Roquen.5406" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > **No, that's not opinion, that's how things work. Anet never set explicit expectations for ANY of the things he listed and probably many of the others he didn't either. So if people think they have the right to be upset, it's only because they invented some reality imposed on Anet they think should be delivered.**

> >

> > Things you DO have the right to be upset about is when don't get something you pay for that Anet defined you would get for that money ... like $100 USD pays for 8000 gems. THAT'S an expectation. An expectation is not "Hey I don't like how you did this, I'm invoking my 'upset' rights". That's a completely meaningless approach to how this game serves it's clients. Clients do not have 'rights' to be upset if they don't like how a company allocates it's resources. You're 'rights' as a consumer here are what you get for what you paid ... and we already got what Anet said they would deliver for what we paid.

> >

> > When players invest time and money in a game, it must be clear that that time and money is something they invest in THEMSELVES for entertainment. It is NOT an investment in Anet with the expectation they give you anything more than you already paid for access to the game/expansions and gems. If I go spend money to be entertained at a movie, that is NOT an investment in the movie theater. It's simply an exchange of cash for services rendered. The situation with GW2 is no different.

>

> Okay, in response to the bolded part above:

>

>

> Original 19 Gen two legendaries promised for free in 2012/2013, scrapped numerous times, used as a selling point for HoT, they are STILL missing 1 Gen 2 legendary two expansions later. So while not locked behind a second expansion content wise, it is time wise.

> * https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/looking-ahead-guild-wars-2-in-2013/

> * https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/When-others-legendaries/page/1

> * https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/hot-new-legendary-weapons/

> * There was a mega thread back then with all the information that shows what I talked about but I can't find it. Also, Anet changed their HoT presale page overtime based on the flack they were getting but they did originally list all being available upon release. It went from all 19 Legendaries, to 16 (no underwater), to a small batch, then to 4, then to 3 upon release with more later on.

> * There are others that can back me up on this, I was searching through the old forums but it's a mess, I'll try to find what I am referring to and will update when I can.

>

> Fractals

> * https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-brand-new-fractals-of-the-mists-legendary-backpacks-ascended-salvaging-and-more/

> * Legendary backpack from fractals was used as a selling point with HoT and I believe it took over 6 months post-HoT for them to release all steps/components to actually create the backpiece

> * Leaderboards which no one asked for were promised and pushed back and back and ultimately scrapped

>

> New legendary backpacks per each season promised in PvP, to date only one was ever released.

> * https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/pvp-leagues-and-sloth-attack-on-guild-chat-a-summary/

> *

>

> PvP - Stagnant same mode, promised changes never coming to fruition or taking ages to release, balance slow and often misdirected, cheaters/win-traders/manipulators never really punished

> * https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/participate-in-the-stronghold-pvp-public-beta-today/

> * Mode was implemented but didn't do so well so it was pushed out of focus and just left as is outside of conquest, rather than attempting to implement the changes that could make it a viable mode.

>

> WvW - Stagnant, once again changes slow and often misdirected, promised releases or changes never seeing the light of day or getting scrapped entirely

> * https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/devon-carver-on-the-future-of-world-vs-world/

> * https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/welcome-to-world-vs-world-season-1/

> * https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/52335/wvw-content-updates#latest

> * Some changes came through, others are still pending but overall I think the player-base feels world vs world needs more attention. Then you had seasons which only lasted one season if I recall correctly and was promptly scrapped

>

> Different teams being merged - Fractal/Raids, slowing cadence even more

> * https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/52153/introducing-the-systems-team/p1

> * It seems that the intention was to have more communication/support throughout between teams, to improve work flow but overall it appears that content had slowed down (Just look at the release time between content, what was promised versus what was actually released)

>

> Less and less communication overtime

> * Take a look at this - https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/meet-the-herald-revenants-elite-specialization/

> * This was done for every elite spec, the profession forums were filled with comments from the class specific devs, we had three rounds of "testing", with feedback/changes implemented

> * That kind of communication throughout kinda fell flat

>

>

> I am not sure why you state that I make baseless claims...there is no reason for me to do that. You also keep harping on the fact that "We don't have a right to complain because Anet doesn't owe the player-base anything". Instead I think it's important to focus on WHY people may be complaining. Like I said, people care and because they care they voice their concern and hope that changes can be made for the better. Ultimately, I think we should push for improvement rather than giving up on something entirely. You are absolutely correct that I can speak with my "wallet" by leaving but I would prefer that to be done only as a last resort.

 

I knew about some of these but didnt feel like arguing again or researching these things thanks for doing this.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Roquen.5406" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > **No, that's not opinion, that's how things work. Anet never set explicit expectations for ANY of the things he listed and probably many of the others he didn't either. So if people think they have the right to be upset, it's only because they invented some reality imposed on Anet they think should be delivered.**

> >

> > Things you DO have the right to be upset about is when don't get something you pay for that Anet defined you would get for that money ... like $100 USD pays for 8000 gems. THAT'S an expectation. An expectation is not "Hey I don't like how you did this, I'm invoking my 'upset' rights". That's a completely meaningless approach to how this game serves it's clients. Clients do not have 'rights' to be upset if they don't like how a company allocates it's resources. You're 'rights' as a consumer here are what you get for what you paid ... and we already got what Anet said they would deliver for what we paid.

> >

> > When players invest time and money in a game, it must be clear that that time and money is something they invest in THEMSELVES for entertainment. It is NOT an investment in Anet with the expectation they give you anything more than you already paid for access to the game/expansions and gems. If I go spend money to be entertained at a movie, that is NOT an investment in the movie theater. It's simply an exchange of cash for services rendered. The situation with GW2 is no different.

>

> Okay, in response to the bolded part above:

>

>

> Original 19 Gen two legendaries promised for free in 2012/2013, scrapped numerous times, used as a selling point for HoT, they are STILL missing 1 Gen 2 legendary two expansions later. So while not locked behind a second expansion content wise, it is time wise.

> * https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/looking-ahead-guild-wars-2-in-2013/

> * https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/When-others-legendaries/page/1

> * https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/hot-new-legendary-weapons/

> * There was a mega thread back then with all the information that shows what I talked about but I can't find it. Also, Anet changed their HoT presale page overtime based on the flack they were getting but they did originally list all being available upon release. It went from all 19 Legendaries, to 16 (no underwater), to a small batch, then to 4, then to 3 upon release with more later on.

> * There are others that can back me up on this, I was searching through the old forums but it's a mess, I'll try to find what I am referring to and will update when I can.

>

> Fractals

> * https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-brand-new-fractals-of-the-mists-legendary-backpacks-ascended-salvaging-and-more/

> * Legendary backpack from fractals was used as a selling point with HoT and I believe it took over 6 months post-HoT for them to release all steps/components to actually create the backpiece

> * Leaderboards which no one asked for were promised and pushed back and back and ultimately scrapped

>

> New legendary backpacks per each season promised in PvP, to date only one was ever released.

> * https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/pvp-leagues-and-sloth-attack-on-guild-chat-a-summary/

> *

>

> PvP - Stagnant same mode, promised changes never coming to fruition or taking ages to release, balance slow and often misdirected, cheaters/win-traders/manipulators never really punished

> * https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/participate-in-the-stronghold-pvp-public-beta-today/

> * Mode was implemented but didn't do so well so it was pushed out of focus and just left as is outside of conquest, rather than attempting to implement the changes that could make it a viable mode.

>

> WvW - Stagnant, once again changes slow and often misdirected, promised releases or changes never seeing the light of day or getting scrapped entirely

> * https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/devon-carver-on-the-future-of-world-vs-world/

> * https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/welcome-to-world-vs-world-season-1/

> * https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/52335/wvw-content-updates#latest

> * Some changes came through, others are still pending but overall I think the player-base feels world vs world needs more attention. Then you had seasons which only lasted one season if I recall correctly and was promptly scrapped

>

> Different teams being merged - Fractal/Raids, slowing cadence even more

> * https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/52153/introducing-the-systems-team/p1

> * It seems that the intention was to have more communication/support throughout between teams, to improve work flow but overall it appears that content had slowed down (Just look at the release time between content, what was promised versus what was actually released)

>

> Less and less communication overtime

> * Take a look at this - https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/meet-the-herald-revenants-elite-specialization/

> * This was done for every elite spec, the profession forums were filled with comments from the class specific devs, we had three rounds of "testing", with feedback/changes implemented

> * That kind of communication throughout kinda fell flat

>

>

> I am not sure why you state that I make baseless claims...there is no reason for me to do that. You also keep harping on the fact that "We don't have a right to complain because Anet doesn't owe the player-base anything". Instead I think it's important to focus on WHY people may be complaining. Like I said, people care and because they care they voice their concern and hope that changes can be made for the better. Ultimately, I think we should push for improvement rather than giving up on something entirely. You are absolutely correct that I can speak with my "wallet" by leaving but I would prefer that to be done only as a last resort.

 

Again, it's not about you seeing examples of things they didn't deliver or you didn't like. I don't debate they didn't deliver those things or you don't like them. I'm saying that you got what you paid for, so your 'rights' as a consumer of this service aren't violated. It's imply not reasonable to be upset for not getting things that Anet didn't explicitly define that you didn't purchase.

[Roquen.5406]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Again, it's not about you seeing examples of things they didn't deliver or you didn't like. I don't debate they didn't deliver those things or you don't like them. I'm saying that you got what you paid for, so your 'rights' as a consumer of this service aren't violated. It's imply not reasonable to be upset for not getting things that Anet didn't explicitly define that you didn't purchase.

 

I'm not sure how you aren't understanding this. It has nothing to do with what I do or don't like...these are examples of things people paid for but did not get (some of them still pending today).

 

Legendaries - an entirely new set was promised for FREE. It got pushed back and their system was scrapped and redone. It was then used as a selling point for HoT. Five years later...they are still not all fully released...something that was initially free and then sold as part of the FIRST expansion is still not complete over a year into the SECOND expansion.

Promised Fractal Leaderboard - Constantly pushed back and then scrapped in it's entirety.

Legendary Fractal Backpack - Once again used as a selling point for HoT and was not delivered until about half a year after release

Legendary PvP Backpack(s) - Promised 1 every new "season" once Anet introduced seasons into PvP. To date there has only been ONE.

New PvP / WvW Content/Changes/Improvements - The little that was introduced has been left stagnant and neglected. There are changes that never made it in or got scrapped early on and there are still things people are still waiting for.

Updates in general - They had a pipeline of their release cadence, X per Y based on what the paid expansions would come with. It constantly got pushed back and came to a slow crawl.

 

There was a huge fiasco with HoT prior to/up until it's release that bordered along the lines of Bait and Switch. Anet stealth changed certain things they promised in their websites and even offered additional presale rewards based on the backlash from the media/player-base at the time.

 

There is a reason so many people have left even though the game at its core is great.

 

 

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

I don't think you are getting it. Those are things Anet said they wanted to do ... but we did NOT pay for them.

 

Just as one example from your list ... as content, no one 'paid' for Legendary backpacks, but your going to tell me it's something you expected that you aren't happy they didn't deliver. That's unreasonable.

 

Another ... Anet communicating with you is not something you pay for. It's not something Anet set a clear expectation in detail how. There are good reasons to do it, but they don't have to and it's not something we should expect them to do above and beyond the basic service level of providing game access to us.

 

Release cadence ... you didn't pay for that. In fact, we didn't pay for any of the LS content, it's free ... you're literally complaining about content you get for free and saying you have the right to be upset with Anet about. That blows my mind. If Anet wanted to, they could monetize that content, but they don't because their business model is based on GS sales. They don't have to offer this content for free, but they do. The idea that free content release cadence upsets you is just entitlement.

[Bast.7253]

> @"mauried.5608" said:

> Whether Anet fails or succeeds is NOT your concern, unless you are a shareholder of Ncsoft.

> If you dont like the game , then dont play it .

>

 

If they don’t succeed there will be no game to play...

 

 

[Roquen.5406]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> I don't think you are getting it. Those are things Anet said they wanted to do ... but we did NOT pay for them.

>

> Just as one example from your list ... as content, no one 'paid' for Legendary backpacks, but your going to tell me it's something you expected that you aren't happy they didn't deliver. That's unreasonable.

>

> Another ... Anet communicating with you is not something you pay for. It's not something Anet set a clear expectation in detail how. There are good reasons to do it, but they don't have to and it's not something we should expect them to do above and beyond the basic service level of providing game access to us.

>

> Release cadence ... you didn't pay for that. In fact, we didn't pay for any of the LS content, it's free ... you're literally complaining about content you get for free and saying you have the right to be upset with Anet about. That blows my mind. If Anet wanted to, they could monetize that content, but they don't because their business model is based on GS sales. They don't have to offer this content for free, but they do. The idea that free content release cadence upsets you is just entitlement.

 

Once again, whether or not I am happy with something is irrelevant to these points, I'm not sure why you keep attempting to make this personal.

 

What did you pay for when you bought Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, and Path of Fire? People definitely paid for Legendary Backpacks/Weapons/Armor, Mounts, Raids, Maps, Living World, and PvE/PvP/WvW updates/content.

 

They can't monetize content that people blow through in a few hours/single day. They opt for the release the way they do because it's a business model that is sustainable for them. Look at how upset people are about people having to pay for **old content** after they've already purchased the game and you are going to tell me that people would happily shell out money for each new LS release?

[Obtena.7952]

When you buy that content, you bought the content that was part of those packages, period. Anything above and beyond that is just generally funded by Gem sales. And to say you didn't get you legendary stuff is wrong ... Anet is developing and releasing that stuff. They just haven't been explicit about when it gets released ... and that's what I'm talking about. You can't impose your own timelines and then say Anet isn't delivering based on your own self-imposed expectations. That's unreasonable.

 

And Anet absolutely could monetize content people blow through in a hour/day ... what would stop them? Nothing. They could absolutely charge us for every content patch if they so desired. This isn't a debate if it's a good idea or not. It's about the truth of things you are saying. Anet didn't set expectations for any of the content that wasn't included in the expansions in terms of timing or frequency. If you are imposing those timelines, your doing so to make a self-serving argument that you aren't getting what you want.

 

You say this isn't about whether you are happy or not, but it can't be anything else, because Anet set no explicit expectations to deliver that stuff to you. If there isn't a point of reference for a release date on something, how can you say your upset they took too long to do it? That's an absolutely emotionally-based argument.

[Roquen.5406]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> When you buy that content, you bought the content that was part of those packages, period. Anything above and beyond that is just generally funded by Gem sales. And to say you didn't get you legendary stuff is wrong ... Anet is developing and releasing that stuff. They just haven't been explicit about when it gets released ... and that's what I'm talking about. You can't impose your own timelines and then say Anet isn't delivering based on your own self-imposed expectations. That's unreasonable.

>

 

They explicitly stated when it would be released...that is the point you are missing. It's not self-imposed expectations. If you buy HoT because you are promised 19 new legendaries, yet you are still waiting for them after a second paid expansion...then there is something wrong.

 

You keep stating that I am making my own timelines but these are the things that Anet themselves gave timelines for. I just listed the examples that I could recall.

 

You don't go to a restaurant and order Steak, Potatoes and Grilled Veggies, pay for it and then get told to come back next week. That's not how it works.