Damage on Warclaw

[zengara.8301]

I find most other arguments about Warclaw to be somewhat false. Roaming is still very much a thing, and you should be able to catch up with enemies, or you wont be able to catch up with any class that have a move or evade Skills (all of them)

 

What concerns me is if the Warclaw will have pretty good damage. it showed in the video (12:56) that the damage was 2.2k for 10 people and 800 bleeding for 10 sec. In other words, 5 people can ideally deal 2.2k damage to a full 50 blob. If you say that a blob jumps another blob if you are a blob (50v50) then the damage output would be 22k for everyone if it hits all targets or more damage to some targets than others if some is out of 360 radius + bleed (800 dmg and 10 sec for 5 people etc.....idk if it stacks though so I didnt count it in, since people basically insta dies anyways with 22k dmg).

 

But basically, am I calculating it correctly, or something I missed here?

[Dawdler.8521]

If a 50 man pop all their damage on a stacked 50 man that does absolutely nothing to prevent it, they also insta die.

 

If a 50 man pop all their damage on 50 warclaws trying to jump them... its 50 players with all their skills, heals and damage available vs 50 people with no armor, no heals, no skills and they get stunned as soon as they take enough damage to get dismounted so yeah... hmmm...

 

The damage is most likely zero concern.

 

The only concern is the speed of the thing.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

That's actually less damage per individual than a cannon grapeshot.

Nobody has ever died from a single grapeshot, and this one is a one-time-only hit until the character leaves combat and can mount again.

 

So the only real problem is indeed the stacking. That could be solved by making it so whoever is hit be the warclaw can't be hit again within 10s.

 

 

As for the speed, they move slower on enemy territories, which means defenders riding a warclaw will always be able to catch up with invaders within their own territories.

[PookieDaWombat.6209]

Tactically, opening with the warclaw is also silly. Its better to try to nuke a group then have a warclaw cavalry come in and insta down them while damaging any rezzers for the second wave of combat while maybe a second cavalry group breaks off combat to allow for a remount.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"PookieDaWombat.6209" said:

> Tactically, opening with the warclaw is also silly. Its better to try to nuke a group then have a warclaw cavalry come in and insta down them while damaging any rezzers for the second wave of combat while maybe a second cavalry group breaks off combat to allow for a remount.

 

These sorts of tactics seem very interesting and fun to me. Just adding another layer the combat in WvW.

[zengara.8301]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> If a 50 man pop all their damage on a stacked 50 man that does absolutely nothing to prevent it, they also insta die.

>

> If a 50 man pop all their damage on 50 warclaws trying to jump them... its 50 players with all their skills, heals and damage available vs 50 people with no armor, no heals, no skills and they get stunned as soon as they take enough damage to get dismounted so yeah... hmmm...

>

> The damage is most likely zero concern.

>

> The only concern is the speed of the thing.

 

Well still, its 22k dmg per person if done right, still pretty huge dmg output even with heals etc, since its instantaneous. A great example is the person below your comment that went to say that grape shots deal more damage. Cannons are a huge problem, if you are trying to take a tower, and most likely always targeted first. With full masteries you got 2k dmg and 2.2k bleeding for 10 sec and a 400 radius (no masteries is 1.6k and 1.1k bleeding for 10s 360 radius)

The warclaw mount got again 2.2k dmg and 800 bleed (I didnt count the bleed because initial dmg kinda count the most, since you gotta guess on opponents guardian number/healing/ condi cleanse etc) 360 radius is still quiet big for a squad, and you would down a lot of people in the middle if they got casters around since if missing 1, it would ideally mean some one else get 44k dmg since it is individually 2.2k dmg for 10 people, and as long as that amount in the 360 radius (still pretty big) is above 10 then it would just hit everyone.

 

I agree that generally a sloppy group might not find it easiere to actually give a huge dmg output with such a move, but if there is a potential to huge dmg output, I guess some groups would be able to use it as such. Not sure though, might need to wait til Tuesday, they might just insta fall off xD

[zengara.8301]

> @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> That's actually less damage per individual than a cannon grapeshot.

> Nobody has ever died from a single grapeshot, and this one is a one-time-only hit until the character leaves combat and can mount again.

>

> So the only real problem is indeed the stacking. That could be solved by making it so whoever is hit be the warclaw can't be hit again within 10s.

>

>

> As for the speed, they move slower on enemy territories, which means defenders riding a warclaw will always be able to catch up with invaders within their own territories.

 

A lot of your comment is already answered with my answer above. But you are right about the grape cannon, but the dmg would basically be 50 cannons with single grapeshot

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"zengara.8301" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > If a 50 man pop all their damage on a stacked 50 man that does absolutely nothing to prevent it, they also insta die.

> >

> > If a 50 man pop all their damage on 50 warclaws trying to jump them... its 50 players with all their skills, heals and damage available vs 50 people with no armor, no heals, no skills and they get stunned as soon as they take enough damage to get dismounted so yeah... hmmm...

> >

> > The damage is most likely zero concern.

> >

> > The only concern is the speed of the thing.

>

> Well still, its 22k dmg per person if done right, still pretty huge dmg output even with heals etc, since its instantaneous. A great example is the person below your comment that went to say that grape shots deal more damage. Cannons are a huge problem, if you are trying to take a tower, and most likely always targeted first. With full masteries you got 2k dmg and 2.2k bleeding for 10 sec and a 400 radius (no masteries is 1.6k and 1.1k bleeding for 10s 360 radius)

> The warclaw mount got again 2.2k dmg and 800 bleed (I didnt count the bleed because initial dmg kinda count the most, since you gotta guess on opponents guardian number/healing/ condi cleanse etc) 360 radius is still quiet big for a squad, and you would down a lot of people in the middle if they got casters around since if missing 1, it would ideally mean some one else get 44k dmg since it is individually 2.2k dmg for 10 people, and as long as that amount in the 360 radius (still pretty big) is above 10 then it would just hit everyone.

>

> I agree that generally a sloppy group might not find it easiere to actually give a huge dmg output with such a move, but if there is a potential to huge dmg output, I guess some groups would be able to use it as such. Not sure though, might need to wait til Tuesday, they might just insta fall off xD

Numbers become irrelevant because you're seeing them in a situation that never happen, realistically speaking.

 

We can say the same about anything. Imagine 50 elementalists dropping meteor showers on 50 people - that's ~15,000 damage (avg 5k per meteor on 3 targets) x 24 hits, or 360,000 damage... *per ele*. Not all those 50 peeps. **Per ele**. 18,000,000 damage in total dumped on that zerg. In comparison a 50 man zerg at 25k avg hp only have 1,250,000 hp. So you're only killing them 15 times over in ~10 seconds if we assume all eles channeled at the same time.

 

But you see, people move. People dodge. The eles get interrupted. The meteors dont hit. The other zerg pushes before they can channel. They die from counter damage. And no one brings 50 eles to battle. The *potential* damage rarely equal the *actual* damage. WvW doesnt work by the numbers.

[EremiteAngel.9765]

As others have said, it's silly to engage with warclaw. The blob could have done so much more damage with the usual Scourge and herald bomb when you jump the enemy.

 

It is also silly to have a mounted few waiting to jump in for insta full downs in a blob fight because you're wasting their presence just waiting at the sides and also, anyone that goes down in a blob would have been full downed in no time.

 

Furthermore for scenarios where you don't get the jump on the enemy, warclaw dies in a couple of hits from a single player. No mount is going to survive in a blob fight where there are also thieves and rangers sniping drifters.

 

I see mounts more like a utility mount than a combat mount.

[Straegen.2938]

We don't know the number of players impacted by the AoE and it could only be 5 players per attack. Also it is a high risk maneuver with moderate damage compared to what a pack of scourges drop. If they get caught, the entire zerg is knocked down and essentially free kills.

[felincyriac.5981]

well the mounted players will be slippery thanks to the 3 dodges, but the main concern is the increased speed in friendly territory enabling reinforcements to arrive much quicker and boosting defense. I don't really think that's fun (well probably for the defenders, but defense is already too much atm).

[zengara.8301]

My intial thought is still that this will be very hard to pull off with a random group (I dont know to be honest, it could be simple) But if able to simply hit everyone if there is 10 people or more inside a 360 radius. Then it could be used as a tactic for good groups (GvG, WvW raid groups etc)

 

Simply:

-It is a lot of damage.

-I think it is hard to pull off, but probably possible if good group. (3 evades, honestly kinda think it will be easy to pull off but I dont know xD)

-If more than 10 people in a 360 radius, then everyone will be hit

[zengara.8301]

> @"felincyriac.5981" said:

> well the mounted players will be slippery thanks to the 3 dodges, but the main concern is the increased speed in friendly territory enabling reinforcements to arrive much quicker and boosting defense. I don't really think that's fun (well probably for the defenders, but defense is already too much atm).

 

Though yeah, choke holds in nearby towers/keeps, will be easier to go through. And defending stuff will be easier, as long as it isnt camps since you need to glide for all beside north camp in hbl. Dont personally know if its a bad thing to be able to return (to very near keeps/towers) quickly though. You could genuinely discuss either, and I would probably agree on both xD

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"PookieDaWombat.6209" said:

> Tactically, opening with the warclaw is also silly. Its better to try to nuke a group then have a warclaw cavalry come in and insta down them while damaging any rezzers for the second wave of combat while maybe a second cavalry group breaks off combat to allow for a remount.

 

That does sound interesting. I never paid attention, but do players lose boons when they mount? (eg stability, aegis, etc) Because that also can play a factor, as those Calvary, when dismounted, won't have the usual boons from empower et al that one normally gets in a zerg prior to the push.

[PookieDaWombat.6209]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > @"PookieDaWombat.6209" said:

> > Tactically, opening with the warclaw is also silly. Its better to try to nuke a group then have a warclaw cavalry come in and insta down them while damaging any rezzers for the second wave of combat while maybe a second cavalry group breaks off combat to allow for a remount.

>

> That does sound interesting. I never paid attention, but do players lose boons when they mount? (eg stability, aegis, etc) Because that also can play a factor, as those Calvary, when dismounted, won't have the usual boons from empower et al that one normally gets in a zerg prior to the push.

 

I don't know if they do or not, so it would make for interesting counter play trying to gank the gankers so to speak, or at least readjust the boon rotations so the cavalry players can get buffed when rotating into the fight while the second round cavalry drops back to prep for mounting up.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"PookieDaWombat.6209" said:

> > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > > @"PookieDaWombat.6209" said:

> > > Tactically, opening with the warclaw is also silly. Its better to try to nuke a group then have a warclaw cavalry come in and insta down them while damaging any rezzers for the second wave of combat while maybe a second cavalry group breaks off combat to allow for a remount.

> >

> > That does sound interesting. I never paid attention, but do players lose boons when they mount? (eg stability, aegis, etc) Because that also can play a factor, as those Calvary, when dismounted, won't have the usual boons from empower et al that one normally gets in a zerg prior to the push.

>

> I don't know if they do or not, so it would make for interesting counter play trying to gank the gankers so to speak, or at least readjust the boon rotations so the cavalry players can get buffed when rotating into the fight while the second round cavalry drops back to prep for mounting up.

 

Not gonna lie, the thought of a "calvary" element to WvW has me very interested. It probably won't work, but the idea of keeping a small group of calvary, out of sight of the battle, to charge in on command to push the tide of battle....man...that sounds so cool.

 

But hey, running back to tag 30% faster is also ok B)

[PookieDaWombat.6209]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > @"PookieDaWombat.6209" said:

> > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > > > @"PookieDaWombat.6209" said:

> > > > Tactically, opening with the warclaw is also silly. Its better to try to nuke a group then have a warclaw cavalry come in and insta down them while damaging any rezzers for the second wave of combat while maybe a second cavalry group breaks off combat to allow for a remount.

> > >

> > > That does sound interesting. I never paid attention, but do players lose boons when they mount? (eg stability, aegis, etc) Because that also can play a factor, as those Calvary, when dismounted, won't have the usual boons from empower et al that one normally gets in a zerg prior to the push.

> >

> > I don't know if they do or not, so it would make for interesting counter play trying to gank the gankers so to speak, or at least readjust the boon rotations so the cavalry players can get buffed when rotating into the fight while the second round cavalry drops back to prep for mounting up.

>

> Not gonna lie, the thought of a "calvary" element to WvW has me very interested. It probably won't work, but the idea of keeping a small group of calvary, out of sight of the battle, to charge in on command to push the tide of battle....man...that sounds so cool.

>

> But hey, running back to tag 30% faster is also ok B)

 

they don't even need to be out of sight. A back line cav means that the opposing zerg has to decide if they are going to split to dismount them to keep them from charging the front line at the time of engagement and creates a different kind of roaming group meta built around cav stomping. My biggest worry is still the ability to make getting into towers and keeps trivial with the big evade on the mount and doing a kind of fire brigade attack on the door of a a tower or keep where they attackers rotate mounts to pull down a door and never spend on rams. It would mean that supply traps will be used more often since thats the only way to stop them outside of direct damage.

[JDub.1530]

Dodging is a thing, right? And every mount engage skills has an animation so far. Even if the Warclaw has devastating damage. Even if it is easy to execute without getting dismounted. It should be a highly telegraphed attack that is easy to dodge.

[Baldrick.8967]

> @"JDub.1530" said:

> Dodging is a thing, right? And every mount engage skills has an animation so far. Even if the Warclaw has devastating damage. Even if it is easy to execute without getting dismounted. It should be a highly telegraphed attack that is easy to dodge.

 

Good luck dodging 40 of them...

[JDub.1530]

> @"Baldrick.8967" said:

> > @"JDub.1530" said:

> > Dodging is a thing, right? And every mount engage skills has an animation so far. Even if the Warclaw has devastating damage. Even if it is easy to execute without getting dismounted. It should be a highly telegraphed attack that is easy to dodge.

>

> Good luck dodging 40 of them...

 

Challenge accepted!

[zengara.8301]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"zengara.8301" said:

> > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > If a 50 man pop all their damage on a stacked 50 man that does absolutely nothing to prevent it, they also insta die.

> > >

> > > If a 50 man pop all their damage on 50 warclaws trying to jump them... its 50 players with all their skills, heals and damage available vs 50 people with no armor, no heals, no skills and they get stunned as soon as they take enough damage to get dismounted so yeah... hmmm...

> > >

> > > The damage is most likely zero concern.

> > >

> > > The only concern is the speed of the thing.

> >

> > Well still, its 22k dmg per person if done right, still pretty huge dmg output even with heals etc, since its instantaneous. A great example is the person below your comment that went to say that grape shots deal more damage. Cannons are a huge problem, if you are trying to take a tower, and most likely always targeted first. With full masteries you got 2k dmg and 2.2k bleeding for 10 sec and a 400 radius (no masteries is 1.6k and 1.1k bleeding for 10s 360 radius)

> > The warclaw mount got again 2.2k dmg and 800 bleed (I didnt count the bleed because initial dmg kinda count the most, since you gotta guess on opponents guardian number/healing/ condi cleanse etc) 360 radius is still quiet big for a squad, and you would down a lot of people in the middle if they got casters around since if missing 1, it would ideally mean some one else get 44k dmg since it is individually 2.2k dmg for 10 people, and as long as that amount in the 360 radius (still pretty big) is above 10 then it would just hit everyone.

> >

> > I agree that generally a sloppy group might not find it easiere to actually give a huge dmg output with such a move, but if there is a potential to huge dmg output, I guess some groups would be able to use it as such. Not sure though, might need to wait til Tuesday, they might just insta fall off xD

> Numbers become irrelevant because you're seeing them in a situation that never happen, realistically speaking.

>

> We can say the same about anything. Imagine 50 elementalists dropping meteor showers on 50 people - that's ~15,000 damage (avg 5k per meteor on 3 targets) x 24 hits, or 360,000 damage... *per ele*. Not all those 50 peeps. **Per ele**. 18,000,000 damage in total dumped on that zerg. In comparison a 50 man zerg at 25k avg hp only have 1,250,000 hp. So you're only killing them 15 times over in ~10 seconds if we assume all eles channeled at the same time.

>

> But you see, people move. People dodge. The eles get interrupted. The meteors dont hit. The other zerg pushes before they can channel. They die from counter damage. And no one brings 50 eles to battle. The *potential* damage rarely equal the *actual* damage. WvW doesnt work by the numbers.

 

The key factor here is that it is instantly. If we had 50 eles who could instantly drop that amount of damage, then yes I would believe it. But since ele is at its best 1.960 dmg, and even if there were 50 eles with this amount of dmg, the opponents will burn down quick. But your math simply is lacking that they both have to be instantly put, there is 1960 of dmg per meteor, where the impact ratio is half of the radius the mount will have (180 radius), the math you simply put changes a lot, because you are avoiding the key factors.

Beyond that.....what your comment is suggesting is that you are trying to argue that any form for bombing isnt a viable option, because people move and damage output is missing. Obviously bombing is a very viable option that does cut a lot of people in a group, especially portal bombing is a viable option, or if surprised because you didnt see opponents come behind xx wall kind of bombing.......

I get your "general" premise, that you need guardians for protection/healing/stab. But if you take a step back, you are basically saying that no form for bombing works, even highest amount of damage possible to get out there in the game. And that is obviously just false

[zengara.8301]

^EDIT: Thats also why I avoided putting bleeding damage in the past, since it just creates guessing work rather than instant damage

[Adzekul.3104]

Fundamental problem with this issue ... they can test a mount engage in a 1v1 on a dev server, easily. They cannot do 50 v 50 testing, and so this kind of content addition turns us all into guinea pigs and WvW into a beta test for a few days. And this is not fun.

 

My first impression, as a long time, dedicated WvW player is that WvW is an absolute mess. My advice: get your mount, and logout. Forget double XP, vote with your account by logging out for the double xp week. Given recent events, this kind of action will be noted.

 

Right now, the Mist War has dropped in fun-factor to EotM. Groups on their home borders do nothing but flip objectives, and avoid fights. Groups on enemy borders look for fights, but so few actually defend.

[KrHome.1920]

Warclaw aka clean up squad is the long awaited role for thieves and rangers in the zerg. They will form the back-backline and jump into the action right after their blob has downed a few targets for ultimate snowballing.

 

They should be thankful. :p But instead they complain about lonesome targets running away from them which makes life as a ganker a bit harder.

[zionophir.6845]

auto attack longbow 1111 can deal 5 digit damage. so your observation is not farfetched.