Stop Complaining About Scrapper, It Isn't OP - Now With Video Proof

[BlackTruth.6813]

At least scrapper doesn't have invuln spam combined with z-axis teleport. But it is still really strong like you can be at a point where your conditions to boons can't really be corrupted fast enough and still be okay vs. burst damage, so obviously a shave is fine. Just one step close to an actual decent meta for once.

[LazySummer.2568]

Stop spreading completely false information about sword weaver's attacks mostly being ranged, not hugely telegraphed, and go up terrains. Perhaps read up wiki on them or try them out against golemns. Would be great if you can at least play a couple of unranked games with it to get a basic idea of how it works too.

 

Scrapper is OP. You making lengthy, biased posts filled with faulty information are not going to help convince anyone that it's not.

[Chaith.8256]

The main reason why Scrapper isn't OP is because it's kept in check by Strength Spellbreakers. Bring a spellbreaker to 1v1 a Scrapper, the Scrapper has no win condition, as the Spellbreaker can re-sustain without threat of dying until they gain the upper hand, whenever that may be. Some Scrappers are hardly bringing Stability/Stunbreaks after the patch due to buffs to Shocking Speed & Gyros, these builds are the ones that can be bopped' in under 30 seconds by a Spellbreaker's Bulls Charge and/or Rampage - Scrappers with Elixir U and Elixir X are the ones able to survive the handful of minutes until they mismanage their defensive cooldowns and die - remember, there's no win condition except playing so good that the Spellbreaker gets bored and leaves you to full cap. Boonbeast, Chrono, Weaver, these matchups also have no win condition for the Scrapper, but no lose condition either.

 

Scrapper vs. Spellbreaker is one of the only 1v1s that do end.. which is very bad for the Scrapper's team because virtually every 1v1rs can stalemate vs. all of the other 1v1rs.

 

Scrapper as a side noder I would say is close enough to par with other options now. With the right build you won't die to Spellbreaker easily, but you have literally no hope of gaining the upper hand for your team, like most side node monkey battles. You will likely not see top tier players pick it on their team, but its obviously not bad.

 

As an Engi main (not Scrapper necessarily) I am more interested to see how Scrapper can develop as a secondary support in Teamfights, possibly a much more distinguished role if the comp is built around it.

[Chaith.8256]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > @"Fortus.6175" said:

> > Not to rain on your parade either, but scrapper's mobility is not any worse than most classes, and can in fact apply superspeed, but even at regular speed, nothing prevents them from literally chasing the person running away from that fight, and not as in chasing to kill, but following them if they leave the node cuz they cant kill the scrapper, and if they turn back because the scrapper left the node, nothing stops the scrapper from moving their mouse around and follow that person back into the point...... You speak of this as if the scrappers would stay in the point AFK if everyone is ignoring them.

>

> As an engi main...

>

> I gotta tell you scrapper (and engi in general) is really bad at chasing classes with more mobility. Much of the superspeed in current scrapper builds comes from [shocking Speed](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shocking_Speed "Shocking Speed"), which only triggers when a well (gyro) _**ends.**_ This is very difficult to time in order to give chase to somebody because you __have to activate the gyro 3-4 seconds prior to when you need the superspeed__. It's great for keeping up with opponents in the middle of the fight, but you generally won't be able to reliably time it to catch up with someone who's fleeing. The only classes a scrapper will reliably be able to track down will be guardian and necro, the other two slowest classes.

 

You're forgetting that you can get 10s of Superspeed from Bulwark starting immediately if you immediately Leap/Blast your Bulwark Gyro field. Shocking Speed has two functions, one to give Superspeed for blasting lightning field (Bulwark Gyro) and another to give Superspeed when said Gyro effect ends.

 

This is all well and good. The problem is to get Shocking Speed at all, you have to give up Perfectly Weighted's stability on dodge roll, which is massive, and 10% hammer damage.

 

You can keep up with people. Just not keep any semblance of pressure up on fleeing people.

[Brendan.1309]

There are tons of counters for scrappers, you can do it with 1 person or just 2 heavy hitting rotational damage dealers.

The problem people are having is that they haven't played against scrapper much.

They didn't get a full redesign or anything. they gyros just changed and blast gyro (arguably) took a large nerf.

There are four gyros that are relevant. Healing, bulwark, purge, and sneak.

 

Sneak gyro is more of a cheese thing, stealth lasts way too long on it. its application as a side noder is annoying but compared to other elite options it is much worse. I can see it being used in team fights well but the main issue everyone has seems to be with scrapper side noding.

 

Purge Gyro isn't really a side noding gyro either, taking a scourge away from a team fight to attack a side node seems undesirable and I haven't seen any side node scrappers running it.

 

All that's left is bulwark and healing gyro...thats it.

Scrapper was already strong prepatch, only a few people were playing it well.

Now nobody knows how to fight it because they haven't dealt with it, that's all.

 

Either way, you are going to have to deal with it for a few months and whining about it won't do any good.

I am glad there are more scrappers out there, they are much easier targets than their much more aggressive counterpart prot holo.

 

 

[Ovark.2514]

Incorrect OP. The sheer amount of builds that instantly become completely useless thanks to scrapper is staggering. Reflects alone make this at least on par with memer's evasive mirror.

[bethekey.8314]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> Scrapper is not OP. It's just another side noder that doesn't die in 1v1s.

>

> With the disappearance of Mirage side node ultra pressure, we are left in the meta now with: Tanky Rangers, Weavers, Chronobunkers, Spellbreakers, and now Scrappers. Nothing kills each other 1v1 unless one player is significantly outplaying the other, someone makes a critical mistake, or they get plused on. And there is so much stability in the game, along with stunbreaks, instant teleports, and fast moving mobility skills, that it is also unlikely that a neutral node would flip one color either way. If a node is won during a side noder vs. side noder, it takes an unbelievably long amount of time. This also means that the side noders, when caught vs. each other, aren't really impacting the game much at all, they just sort end up negating each other's presence. The difference between Ranger vs. Chrono or Ranger vs. Scrapper is null, there is no difference in the outcome of the match. Either situation will result in a neutral node, regardless of if it is Weaver vs. Ranger or Weaver vs. Scrapper. So I'm not understanding where people are coming from with this "Scrapper is OP." It just isn't OP.

>

> Look let's compare conquest attributes, specifically as tied to being a side noder in this current meta:

>

> **Spellbreaker**

> * Damage Potential: A "or a sudden S+ for the duration of rampage"

> * 1v1 Sustain: A

> * 1v2 Sustain: B-

> * Mobility: B+ to A+ "depending on setup"

> * Team Fight Potential: B "it only really brings mostly single target DPS and CCs"

> * Sheer Node Holding Power: B+ or A- at best "If it can't actually kill the player it is against, it doesn't hold a node quite as well as other side noders"

>

> **Boonbeast or Druid**

> * Damage Potential: A- Boonbeast or C+ or B Druid "Depending on how well the Druid can work his retaliation"

> * 1v1 Sustain: A+ Boonbeast or S Druid "Druid is the stronger sustain after nerf"

> * 1v2 Sustain: A- Boonbeast or S Druid "Druid has always been better at surviving 1v2s than Soulbeast"

> * Mobility: B+ to A+ depending on setup for both

> * Team Fight Potential: B- for Boonbeast or B+ for Druid "The Druid can afford to pop team heals from time to time, and stealth stomp/revive"

> * Sheer Node Holding Power: A Boonbeast or S Druid "This is now, after the nerfs to Boonbeast"

>

> **Chronobunker**

> * Damage Potential: B+ "Mainly due to its CC factor"

> * 1v1 Sustain: Honestly it's an S in most situations, as low as a B+ in some counter situations

> * 1v2 Sustain: A- "It's not so hot when focused and usually has to leave a node to survive"

> * Mobility: B+ or A- "depending on how skills usage is cycled"

> * Team Fight Potential: A "The AoE CCs actually bring a lot to the table with coordinated play"

> * Sheer Node Holding Power: It's like an A+ or maybe S- 1v1 in most situations, but when 1v2 it goes down to a B+ at best

>

> **Weaver** "I'm judging this from the very few good Weavers we have out there btw"

> * Damage Potential: A-

> * 1v1 Sustain: A+

> * 1v2 Sustain: B-

> * Mobility: B+ at best

> * Team Fight Potential: B+

> * Sheer Node Holding Power: A+ or B- when focused

>

> **Scrapper**

> * Damage Potential: C at best "It also has no chase potential. A Scrapper will not be able to chase and kill you, if you just wisen up an leave"

> * 1v1 Sustain: S+

> * 1v2 Sustain: S+ regarding mitigating raw damage or A- regarding being able to avoid it "there are better kiters out there"

> * Mobility: B at best

> * Team Fight Potential: A "Not quite as important as a FB support, but it does bring other factors to a team fight, despite its low damage"

> * Sheer Node Holding Power: S+ in 1v1, S- when 2v1'd focused. The Scrapper, although it can survive through the use of sneak gyro, will lose a node when it must do a somewhat elongated stealth disengage/reset.

>

> When you look at it like this, you can see that Scrapper is actually rather balanced. The thing that players are freaking out about, is that we are seeing a real "Bunker" for the first time in a long time. Other Side Noders are hard to kill sure, but they struggle when 1v2 focused and often lose the node while using their survival techniques. What makes the Scrapper a Bunker instead of a Side Noder, is that it can hold 1v2 for a much longer duration of time, before needing to stealth disengage/reset, than the other Side Noders. This is often plenty of time for his team to + him, or fall to him. THIS IS NOTHING NEW, having Bunkers or Scrappers that cannot be killed 1v1. Any of you who are freaking out about this, apparently did not play in the HoT meta. Another reason why I think people are freaking out about Scrapper, is because we just exited a high DPS meta, and sort of instantly landed into a much tankier meta. Again, a meta where a real Bunker has appeared again. **It's ok boys, relax. Let the Scrapper mains have their good meta, they've waited a very long time for it.**

>

> Pointing all of this out about "how it doesn't matter which side node classes are against each other in 1v1s, no one is going to kill anyone anyway" reminds me of what Phantaram had said in a previous thread posted:

>

> @"Phantaram.4816" said:

> > most match ups that are against another side noder class/spec just turn into a stalemate. 90% of my time spent in these extremely competitive and close matches of guild wars 2 could have been with my hands not on my keyboard and mouse. Same goes for the guy I was 1v1ing on the side nodes. It meant nothing. We couldn't kill each other. This has been a problem for a long time in guild wars 2 any time the side node meta turns into a tanky mess.

>

> His thread was titled "SIDE NODING ISN'T FUN" and he's right, it isn't right now. But the community shouldn't be pointing fingers and blaming this all on the Scrapper. Because even if they deleted Scrapper tomorrow, there will still be Tanky Rangers/Weavers/Chronobunkers/Spellbreakers. The problem is within design & balance theory intra-class wide. It is not within Scrapper as an individual class. Stop bullying Scrappers.

 

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> @"Fortus.6175" Let me see if I can explain this:

>

> 1. **"You specifically said about standing on the point in your post, in what map do we have a single point with obstacles inside of it that you can use to line of sight? Even the ones witht he closest LoS objects, make you lose the point in those 4 seconds."** Aright, when I mean LOSing, I mean doing it very briefly to mitigate any compromising damage that may actually kill you. A good example is Rampage. When a Warrior Rampages, depending on how sneaky he is with it and how long he waits to use it, it can come with dangerous timing. Even as a tanky side noder, if the Warrior is smart and waits to use Rampage until he KNOWS his opponent has been baited of a good portion of its defenses, and he can catch the opponent at like 50% health or lower, then Rampage becomes dangerous. Even a tanky side noder knows not to screw around with a 25 might buffed fury enhanced Rampage if he's low on resources. In this case, a smart side noder jumps off the node and runs around a pole to avoid Rampage gap closers and thrown boulders, then he heads right back to the node. Now usually what happens is the same thing eventually happens to the Warrior. Say a Boonbeast lands a correctly connected axe 5 when the Warrior attempts to sword 3 him against a corner or wall "such as side nodes in Capricorn", this will punish the warrior as the retal will deal him damage from his own attack, the axe 5 will also deal flat damage and the Warrior might be looking at getting caught in a WI at that. So this kind of surprise damage will put the warrior low, and in this case it is dangerous for him to stay on the node vs. the Soulbeast, so he'll have to LOS around an object or something until important skills come off CDs, or maybe he can bait the pet over for an easy burst heal. This is just how it works with sider noder vs. side noder. They go back and forth needing to abort the cap from time to time, to make sure they don't die. This is especially true in 1v2 situations. Now as for your inquiry about my comment regarding LOSing and Spellbreaker vs. Weaver directly, what I meant by that is that things like Rampage are much more easily LOSed. The boulder cannot go through even a thin obstacle, even if a player is standing directly behind it, and the gap closer on Rampage will be negated by even thin walls or even small sudden elevations, which will deny it of it's line of travel "just jump up a little step and it cuts off the gap closer." On the other hand, Weavers have all of these attacks that hit up elevations and AoEs that get you even if you're behind a wall. Many of their attacks are also ranged in general, and they aren't even projectiles to be reflected, they're channels. So these kind of attacks threaten you with actually being hit much more than something that chases you with melee, regardless of your position on even a large node like legacy mid. This is exactly why Fresh Air Eles are notoriously known for being able to kill bunkers, because bunkers have no real damage burst to pressure the Fresh Air, and they just end up rolling around trying to avoid that lightning bolt spam, when it's impossible to completely avoid a ranged channel that never stops spamming. Upon this and aside from burst Eles, most Eles are pumping up smaller more consistent damage than something like a Spellbreaker, which has much larger damage, that comes in intervals. The smaller attrition damage that pumps out from Eles is just harder to avoid. The Spellbreaker damage, if you know all the little tricks of a class and play it effectively, is easier to avoid. Again, although in the end I agree that Spellbreaker deals more damage than Weaver, a well played Weaver that knows how to sustain while staying in your hitbox while pumping out all of that small consistent damage, ends up dealing only slightly less damage than the Spellbreaker. That's what I meant by "Easier to LOS."

> 2. About this: **"Also, please stop throwing the "top ele" argument, good players are good players, bad players are bad players, regardless of build once you have practice, and eles are not some mythical creatures that only a gifted few can "understand""** I agree but I also disagree. What the top players are capable of doing, is something that even good players aren't doing. I see this difference each and every time I play vs. a top player in an AT, and then play vs. a good player in a ranked match. Top players know when to hit you, they know when to run even if it's for a short disengage/reset, and they know if it's safe to come back or not. They also know how to pick & choose what they should allow to hit them, and what absolutely needs to be avoided. So essentially they are optimizing the use of defensive CDs, and sometimes purposely allow themselves to get hit, because they know the defense CD will be more important to use vs. some inc CC that they know is about to happen. They're so good at this due to rehearsed knowledge of a meta, that 99% of the time, their decisions work out well. When a top player is using Ele like this, they are able to sacrifice a bit of defense for a bit more damage. When a player is truly excellent at staying on top of your head, while only using defensive CDs for what is important, that bit of sacrifice in defense for a bit more damage, starts to go a long way. That's all I meant by the difference between top Eles and good Eles.

 

Sweet jebus, you care about this game an inordinate amount.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"Ovark.2514" said:

> Incorrect OP. The sheer amount of builds that instantly become completely useless thanks to scrapper is staggering. Reflects alone make this at least on par with memer's evasive mirror.

 

That's not even in the ballpark of being true, and this is coming from a long time Ranger main, whom relies 75% of the time on ranged projectile play. I'm telling you right now that regardless of the build a Scrapper is running, a Scrapper is always by far easier to kill with ranged projectiles than a Mirage spitting evasive mirrors out whenever it feels like it. Not only is evasive mirrors on a MUCH higher uptime of usage than anything the Scrapper has for reflects or projectile nullification, but the evasive mirrors are also far far less telegraphed. Scrapper reflects & projectile nullification is easy to work around, and find an opening for burst.

 

Builds that become instantly useless? What about builds or job roles that become instantly viable? Look, as I've stated earlier, many things happened to change the dynamic of the meta in this recent patch. We had Condi Mirage disappear as the multi-viable side node pressure, due to a loss in damage and illusionary ambush nerf. We had Deadeye drop out because it has no stealth uptime to do its job without running SA, and then it has inadequate damage while running SA, along with the bug fix to lead attacks on rifle 4. We had Core Guard drop out because it has to run marauder now with less power/feroc, or stay valk, with a lot less crit. We had Boonbeast take a step back, due to a significant loss in sustain "Yes every second lost from Dolyak was a big hit in its sustain, more than people expected." Then we had Scrapper stand up to bat with a list of new buffs. It isn't just about Scrapper, it's about how all of that effects everything. An example from my own subjective experience: During the previous two seasons, I had to stop playing Berserker Soulbeast DPS mainly due to Condi Mirage and Herald specifically, they were just too hard of counters. Then the problem worsened if there were other classes in with them, that could assist in chasing, such as Core Guards or a good S/D Thief. The only time that Full DPS Ranger specs were viable, was in very specific match circumstances, like my team has plenty of node hold power and the opposing team has some FB/Necro/Necro comp that is slow, that is prone to high ranged damage or maul/hilt bash/maul/WI finishes during team fights. But that's all changing with this recent patch. Condi Mirage is gone & Power Mirage or Chronos are much easier to deal with and killable 1v1, Not so many JI'ing Core Guards anymore, and there are even less Thieves because... what the hell can they even do now? They can't kill side noders, their damage is beginning to become negligent while +ing in this tanky meta, and they're useless trying to jump into a team fight full of FBs, Necros & Scrappers. Heralds are the only class in play, that can stop a Berserker Soulbeast from doing what it does. Even other Rangers at the best, are a balanced match up. As long as it makes sure to keep an eye on that Herald and play around him, Berserker Soulbeast is extremely viable again for a few big reasons:

1. The classes/builds that set it out of viability are now sitting on the bench.

2. It actually has the damage to "quickly" dispatch things like FBs, Reapers, Scourges, and yes Scrappers. And believe it or not, Serk Soulbest is actually good at sniping off Spellbreakers if it can sucker punch them and lay on the DPS hard, because a 20k+ Maul goes directly through passive sustain like Defy Pain, and the slow regen from Warrior means nothing when something is landing 20k strikes against it. Things with no burst heal, have issues against such high dps pressure.

3. There is a lack of mobility coming into this meta, now that Condi Mirages, Thieves, and Judge's Intervention is falling out. This puts Soulbeasts who run Greatsword 3 leap & some pet with a 1200 range mobility F skill, at the top for sheer mobility. This means it can disengage anything outside of Heralds, and well of course those rare players who are still ranking as Condi Mirage/Core Guard/Thief. And even when it comes to Thief, a full DPS Berserker Soulbeast is not something a Thief wants to chase, it has low win rates vs. 1 shot rapid fires that follow stealth/maul/wi and of course 6s reveal on sic em.

 

And that's just from a DPS Soulbeast point of view on how the meta is shifting as of now. It is likely that some other classes who can front a lot of mobility with very high DPS will begin to appear again, now that Condi Mirage/Core Guard/Thieves are sitting out. I know I've seen a lot of Power Mesmer play lately, and I'm sure they're reappearing for the exact same reasons that I explained as to why full DPS Soulbeast is becoming viable.

 

Yeah so anyway, the point of this ridiculous rant was to example how narrow this point of view is -> "The sheer amount of builds that instantly become completely useless thanks to scrapper is staggering" That's the kind of mind-frame that draws aggro for nerfs or changes, to the wrong places.

 

@"bethekey.8314" I used to work a job where I pretty much sat and wrote behind a keyboard all day. I am easily trolled into caring about my writing, even in an online gaming forum.

[bethekey.8314]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

>

> @"bethekey.8314" I used to work a job where I pretty much sat and wrote behind a keyboard all day. I am easily trolled into caring about my writing, even in an online gaming forum.

 

As a tip for writing then, short is sweet. When your posts resemble walls, you won't get your point across to many people.

 

 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"bethekey.8314" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> >

> > @"bethekey.8314" I used to work a job where I pretty much sat and wrote behind a keyboard all day. I am easily trolled into caring about my writing, even in an online gaming forum.

>

> As a tip for writing then, short is sweet. When your posts resemble walls, you won't get your point across to many people.

>

>

 

With some things that is true. But in a forum such as this, most people cry "It's anecdotal" if they don't get a full explanation. They also like to toss anecdotes themselves, when faced with something that is ill explained.

 

Also I find it extremely ironic that most forum users respond to ill explained topics with: "All you did was state an opinion, you didn't even give explanation or toss suggestions. You don't know what you're talking about." But when someone actually does take the time to well explain their stance, they are met with: "You are writing a text wall, no one is listening to you." After awhile, it just kind of looks like people fish for reasons to complain about things.

 

Go figure why no one is ever happy about balance in Guild Wars 2.

 

[whoknocks.4935]

Scrapper is overtuned is 1vs1 and 1vs2 sustain and bunker capabilities.

So what?

Boonbeast and condi mirage dominate the ladder the same exact way for over 4 months and plus they have crazy stupid spamming damage to win almost every 1vs1.

 

Nerf scrapper and you will have once again a copy paste season full of chronos mirages boonbeasts and holos which people complained for several months.

 

If there is a bunker sidenoding, don't go 1vs1 or 1vs2 him, go in another cap.

 

If the enemy has a bunker you most likely have as well, now it's abused and tried by everyone because it's something new, but soon i bet will drop in popularity.

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"Fortus.6175" said:

> > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > @"Fortus.6175" said:

> > > Not to rain on your parade either, but scrapper's mobility is not any worse than most classes, and can in fact apply superspeed, but even at regular speed, nothing prevents them from literally chasing the person running away from that fight, and not as in chasing to kill, but following them if they leave the node cuz they cant kill the scrapper, and if they turn back because the scrapper left the node, nothing stops the scrapper from moving their mouse around and follow that person back into the point...... You speak of this as if the scrappers would stay in the point AFK if everyone is ignoring them.

> >

> > As an engi main...

> >

> > I gotta tell you scrapper (and engi in general) is really bad at chasing classes with more mobility. Much of the superspeed in current scrapper builds comes from [shocking Speed](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shocking_Speed "Shocking Speed"), which only triggers when a well (gyro) _**ends.**_ This is very difficult to time in order to give chase to somebody because you __have to activate the gyro 3-4 seconds prior to when you need the superspeed__. It's great for keeping up with opponents in the middle of the fight, but you generally won't be able to reliably time it to catch up with someone who's fleeing. The only classes a scrapper will reliably be able to track down will be guardian and necro, the other two slowest classes.

>

> And to some extent rev and eles too, unless the rev uses shiro on a nearby enemy, or eles blow their 40 secs stunbreakers for 1 1/2 secs of superspeed or blow a 40 secs lighting flash which i can guarantee you they will rather save given how those are their main ways of surviving anything. Look man, I get you, it is the class you play and we all have biases, I feel that strongly about eles, but sometimes you gotta stay objective. Even if its not reliable, you can still use said superspeed, just like the ele can decide to blow their precious and limited stunbreakers for speed. Thats 4 class + engis themselves, so 5 classes in total that they can keep up with, 5/9 > 50% of the cast, so by itself thats pretty good, that means that you can keep up with more than half of the classes, it is not fair to say they have bad mobility when they do not, specially not compared to necros or guardians that have it ROUGH in that regards, or staff ele, etc.

>

 

Then comes the other factor that @"Chaith.8256" pointed out. The trait I pointed out that gives that superspeed means you have selected a lower damage trait (instead of [Perfectly weighted](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Perfectly_Weighted "Perfectly weighted"), which is in the same tier). So the overall pressure is going to be lower in the first place. So you likely won't need to run unless you're super glass, in which case you should have a better spike ready and more skills for running away.

 

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > @"Fortus.6175" said:

> > > Not to rain on your parade either, but scrapper's mobility is not any worse than most classes, and can in fact apply superspeed, but even at regular speed, nothing prevents them from literally chasing the person running away from that fight, and not as in chasing to kill, but following them if they leave the node cuz they cant kill the scrapper, and if they turn back because the scrapper left the node, nothing stops the scrapper from moving their mouse around and follow that person back into the point...... You speak of this as if the scrappers would stay in the point AFK if everyone is ignoring them.

> >

> > As an engi main...

> >

> > I gotta tell you scrapper (and engi in general) is really bad at chasing classes with more mobility. Much of the superspeed in current scrapper builds comes from [shocking Speed](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shocking_Speed "Shocking Speed"), which only triggers when a well (gyro) _**ends.**_ This is very difficult to time in order to give chase to somebody because you __have to activate the gyro 3-4 seconds prior to when you need the superspeed__. It's great for keeping up with opponents in the middle of the fight, but you generally won't be able to reliably time it to catch up with someone who's fleeing. The only classes a scrapper will reliably be able to track down will be guardian and necro, the other two slowest classes.

>

> You're forgetting that you can get 10s of Superspeed from Bulwark starting immediately if you immediately Leap/Blast your Bulwark Gyro field. Shocking Speed has two functions, one to give Superspeed for blasting lightning field (Bulwark Gyro) and another to give Superspeed when said Gyro effect ends.

>

> This is all well and good. The problem is to get Shocking Speed at all, you have to give up Perfectly Weighted's stability on dodge roll, which is massive, and 10% hammer damage.

>

> You can keep up with people. Just not keep any semblance of pressure up on fleeing people.

 

Thanks for pointing that out.

 

 

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> Scrapper is not OP. It's just another side noder that doesn't die in 1v1s.

>

> With the disappearance of Mirage side node ultra pressure, we are left in the meta now with: Tanky Rangers, Weavers, Chronobunkers, Spellbreakers, and now Scrappers. Nothing kills each other 1v1 unless one player is significantly outplaying the other, someone makes a critical mistake, or they get plused on. And there is so much stability in the game, along with stunbreaks, instant teleports, and fast moving mobility skills, that it is also unlikely that a neutral node would flip one color either way. If a node is won during a side noder vs. side noder, it takes an unbelievably long amount of time. This also means that the side noders, when caught vs. each other, aren't really impacting the game much at all, they just sort end up negating each other's presence. The difference between Ranger vs. Chrono or Ranger vs. Scrapper is null, there is no difference in the outcome of the match. Either situation will result in a neutral node, regardless of if it is Weaver vs. Ranger or Weaver vs. Scrapper. So I'm not understanding where people are coming from with this "Scrapper is OP." It just isn't OP.

>

> Look let's compare conquest attributes, specifically as tied to being a side noder in this current meta:

>

> **Spellbreaker**

> * Damage Potential: A "or a sudden S+ for the duration of rampage"

> * 1v1 Sustain: A

> * 1v2 Sustain: B-

> * Mobility: B+ to A+ "depending on setup"

> * Team Fight Potential: B "it only really brings mostly single target DPS and CCs"

> * Sheer Node Holding Power: B+ or A- at best "If it can't actually kill the player it is against, it doesn't hold a node quite as well as other side noders"

>

> **Boonbeast or Druid**

> * Damage Potential: A- Boonbeast or C+ or B Druid "Depending on how well the Druid can work his retaliation"

> * 1v1 Sustain: A+ Boonbeast or S Druid "Druid is the stronger sustain after nerf"

> * 1v2 Sustain: A- Boonbeast or S Druid "Druid has always been better at surviving 1v2s than Soulbeast"

> * Mobility: B+ to A+ depending on setup for both

> * Team Fight Potential: B- for Boonbeast or B+ for Druid "The Druid can afford to pop team heals from time to time, and stealth stomp/revive"

> * Sheer Node Holding Power: A Boonbeast or S Druid "This is now, after the nerfs to Boonbeast"

>

> **Chronobunker**

> * Damage Potential: B+ "Mainly due to its CC factor"

> * 1v1 Sustain: Honestly it's an S in most situations, as low as a B+ in some counter situations

> * 1v2 Sustain: A- "It's not so hot when focused and usually has to leave a node to survive"

> * Mobility: B+ or A- "depending on how skills usage is cycled"

> * Team Fight Potential: A "The AoE CCs actually bring a lot to the table with coordinated play"

> * Sheer Node Holding Power: It's like an A+ or maybe S- 1v1 in most situations, but when 1v2 it goes down to a B+ at best

>

> **Weaver** "I'm judging this from the very few good Weavers we have out there btw"

> * Damage Potential: A-

> * 1v1 Sustain: A+

> * 1v2 Sustain: B-

> * Mobility: B+ at best

> * Team Fight Potential: B+

> * Sheer Node Holding Power: A+ or B- when focused

>

> **Scrapper**

> * Damage Potential: C at best "It also has no chase potential. A Scrapper will not be able to chase and kill you, if you just wisen up an leave"

> * 1v1 Sustain: S+

> * 1v2 Sustain: S+ regarding mitigating raw damage or A- regarding being able to avoid it "there are better kiters out there"

> * Mobility: B at best

> * Team Fight Potential: A "Not quite as important as a FB support, but it does bring other factors to a team fight, despite its low damage"

> * Sheer Node Holding Power: S+ in 1v1, S- when 2v1'd focused. The Scrapper, although it can survive through the use of sneak gyro, will lose a node when it must do a somewhat elongated stealth disengage/reset.

>

> When you look at it like this, you can see that Scrapper is actually rather balanced. The thing that players are freaking out about, is that we are seeing a real "Bunker" for the first time in a long time. Other Side Noders are hard to kill sure, but they struggle when 1v2 focused and often lose the node while using their survival techniques. What makes the Scrapper a Bunker instead of a Side Noder, is that it can hold 1v2 for a much longer duration of time, before needing to stealth disengage/reset, than the other Side Noders. This is often plenty of time for his team to + him, or fall to him. THIS IS NOTHING NEW, having Bunkers or Scrappers that cannot be killed 1v1. Any of you who are freaking out about this, apparently did not play in the HoT meta. Another reason why I think people are freaking out about Scrapper, is because we just exited a high DPS meta, and sort of instantly landed into a much tankier meta. Again, a meta where a real Bunker has appeared again. **It's ok boys, relax. Let the Scrapper mains have their good meta, they've waited a very long time for it.**

>

> Pointing all of this out about "how it doesn't matter which side node classes are against each other in 1v1s, no one is going to kill anyone anyway" reminds me of what Phantaram had said in a previous thread posted:

>

> @"Phantaram.4816" said:

> > most match ups that are against another side noder class/spec just turn into a stalemate. 90% of my time spent in these extremely competitive and close matches of guild wars 2 could have been with my hands not on my keyboard and mouse. Same goes for the guy I was 1v1ing on the side nodes. It meant nothing. We couldn't kill each other. This has been a problem for a long time in guild wars 2 any time the side node meta turns into a tanky mess.

>

> His thread was titled "SIDE NODING ISN'T FUN" and he's right, it isn't right now. But the community shouldn't be pointing fingers and blaming this all on the Scrapper. Because even if they deleted Scrapper tomorrow, there will still be Tanky Rangers/Weavers/Chronobunkers/Spellbreakers. The problem is within design & balance theory intra-class wide. It is not within Scrapper as an individual class. Stop bullying Scrappers.

 

You can throw all the estimated stats for each build around. At the end of the day if you're [usually seeing 4 of a class every game in platinum 1 all the way up to the top 30 something is wrong](

"usually seeing 4 of a class every game in platinum 1 all the way up to the top 30 something is wrong"). Simple as that.

 

Even then, yes absolute tons of aspects of Scrapper in it's current for are overtuned and other aspects are extremely unfair to fight against. Stealth Gyro in it's current tuning is 1,000% _completely indefensible_.

 

1. **All Gyros need longer activation wind ups with the possibility for fast reacting players to interrupt them especially the Medic Gyro and the Stealth Gyro**.

2. All gyros need cooldowns increased, some of them extremely dramatically given their current power level. Medic Gyro with it's current tuning should be bumped up to 25s, Purge Gyro should be bumped up to 35-40 seconds to be comparable with other similar skills like Well of Power. Bulwark Gyro with it's current tuning seriously deserves a 75s cooldown and **Sneak Gyro at it's current Tuning deserves a 240 second cooldown that's how out of line it is with other group stealth skills like Mass Invisibility (Mass Invisibility is 2 Second activation, 5 seconds of group stealth, 90 second cooldown) now that it doesn't have a tell**. In it's current for it is a better, less skilled, more spammable way to "portal lock" people like with pre-nerf mesmer Portal while also having amazing ability to both peel for and revive allies in team fights.

3. **All gyros need bigger and more obvious animation tells as the sprites are too small to see in the heat of combat as well as active effects on the players status bars similar to Soulbeast and Warrior stances, or the Troll Unguent and False Oasis healing skills so we can clearly understand what effects are active and respond in kind.**

4. Bulwark should not pulse out barrier to the degree it does while the scrapper is alone 1vXing.

5. Sneak Gyro's field needs to be visible and it's stealth duration needs to be brought in line with other similar skills like Mass Invisibility. If the field is visible it justifies a higher duration of stealth but with no field it is completely and unjustifiably out of line.

6. Hammer 2-4 should have their damage nerfed and rolled into the auto attack chain. Right now in a PvP match hammers 2 and 3 are going to be DPS increases (4 isn't a boost but isn't that much of a loss) as well as providing excellent defense leading to hammer's weapon kit being skilllessly spammed on cooldown rather than reacting appropriately to or correctly predicting incoming threats. Scrapper is far too easy of a spec for how survivable it is and how much sustain it has due to the spammyness of hammer and it's gyros.

7. Adaptive Armor shouldn't reduce incoming condition damage. Traits like this and Second Skin defeat the purpose of condition damage as a unique damage archetype that bypasses defenses but can be negated through cleanse.

8. For years both Alchemy on it's own and especially Alchemy+Inventions combo have been over powered, providing too much effortless sustain and defense against both physical and condition attacks allowing Holosmith, a spec designed to be such a high risk high reward glass cannon it's in danger of blowing itself up, be far far too self sufficient and with far too much ability to resustain for having top tier damage on top of it as well as allowing Prot Holo to side node too effectively given the mission statement of the Holosmith as a specialization. Combined with Scrapper it makes a build that competently played literally cannot die 1v1, and will only die 1v2 to extremely high power pressure and CC. Alchemy+Inventions combo is at least 50% of the reason Scrapper is so over the top. Holosmith's sustain and self sufficiency should be akin to Glint+Shiro and scourge where it really needs the support to shine and Scrapper's defensive capabilities should be about where Prot-Holo currently is, maybe a bit higher with a bit more kill potential on the Hammer Auto attack chain but without the free top tier damage of Photon Forge. It's time to seriously nerf Alchemy and Inventions.

 

Also the idea that scrapper was completely dead is factually untrue when friends of mine like Cuilan have been chilling in the top 30 playing exclusively Scrapper all season long before the Gyro rework. Scrappers seeing low usage was _never_ about _Scrapper's_ performance in and of itself. Scrapper's problem was that between Holosmith's free top tier damage from Photon Forge, Heal Turret being the most overloaded heal in the game, as well as Alchemy and the Alchemy+Inventions combo giving Holosmith gave Holosmith all the resustain and self sufficiency it ever needed while still having top tier damage. SS Tier Damage+A Tier Resustain is going to be more attractive than C Tier Damage and SS Tier resustain, and by a huge amount because a majority of people in every game gravitate more towards damage over tanking unless it's completely insane like post rework Scrapper.

 

Holosmith has always been too efficient in too many areas of ranked and Alchemy and Alchemy+Inventions (And Healing Turret being the most overloaded heal in the game) combo are the reason why. It's great on the side nodes because it's ability to resustain so heavily makes it completely self sufficient. It's great in the team fights because of it's AoE CC and high pressure. It's also good in team fights regardless if your team has support unlike Scourge because of this self sufficiency. It's great rotating into fights and +1ing. Prot Holo is as defensively orientated as we should want Scrapper to be just through Inventions+Alchemy Combo while still having immense pressure in Photon Forge. It's too good in too many areas at once and it should be forced to be more specialized in damage similar to Shiro+Glint Rev and Scourge where it needs that support to really shine. If that was the desireability of Scrapper for both team support as well as side noding would have skyrocketed.

[Fortus.6175]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> This is all well and good. The problem is to get Shocking Speed at all, you have to give up Perfectly Weighted's stability on dodge roll, which is massive, and 10% hammer damage.

 

 

Thats a fair point, i guess in that regard that true! But lack of mobility hasnt stopped any class from being good, both guardians and necros are still good, and you dont need to much around much if your job is to bunker down on a point, whether it is mid to support the team, or far to help stagger their rotations. I dont think they are OP as in they will automatically win you the game, but their mere existence is one of those meta checks, where they counter more builds than the ones that counter them, and the often **completely** change the way the entire team has to play around them, which imo, is where their true strength comes from. As a bunker with super team support abilities, they outshine anyone in their category, specially weavers, and heck I would take them over a tanky soulbeast any day since they will be giving me nice buffs, fields, barriers and condi convertions whereas most SoB can only go far to decap.

[Mammoth.1975]

Scrapper seems fine, I'm curious what classes people main that are getting so hysterical about it. The only thing that's irritating is when you get like 4 semi bunkers on your team and can't kill anything.

[phokus.8934]

I wouldn’t call Scrapper OP but its sustain is a bit too high with gyros. Small tweaks to gyros, mainly getting close to 10k barrier, and it’ll be fine.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> You can throw all the estimated stats for each build around. At the end of the day if you're [usually seeing 4 of a class every game in platinum 1 all the way up to the top 30 something is wrong](

"usually seeing 4 of a class every game in platinum 1 all the way up to the top 30 something is wrong"). Simple as that.

 

This.

 

Granted a lot of people are probably trying out Scrapper atm, so numbers might be skewed somewhat. **Still if a class sees this amount of over-representation across the board, something is out of place**.

 

Not even Mirage saw this amount of representation before the last nerf, and people where still all up in arms. Some still are and demand further nerfs, it's just that actual balance wise other builds have become way more out of wack (boonbeast still not seeing any balance love). It's funny how people suddenly start defending something only because now a class they like or play is on the benefiting end.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@"Cyninja.2954"

Dunno man. I would see on average 3 to 4 Condi Mirages a game. This was not unusual before the patch.

[mes.4607]

No matter what anyone says... I can already tell people are going to complain about Scrapper until it's brought down a couple notches... They're hardcore carrying a lot of games right now. They're strong as hell compared to other side noders atm... Sheeeet. Reflects for days

[Vagrant.7206]

I've seen the number of scrappers in ranked matches drop over the last few days. I honestly think people were just trying the changes out for the most part, because otherwise it's really boring to play, and play against.

[Sorem.9157]

If Scrapper weren't so packed with team support skills i wouldn't have a problem with how tanky it is. As you said, it is just another side noder.

 

That isn't really the case, though. Scrapper brings a lot of utilities to the team that other side noders do not carry. I wouldn't say it is beyond imagination broken, or on the same level as mirage was, but it is definetly really strong and in a great position right now.

[Griever.8150]

Unless you plan to actually support what's the purpose of playing Scrapper over Prot Holo, exactly?

[JayAction.9056]

> @"Fortus.6175" said:

> I just find it funny that out of all the classes, the only one with a description is the weaver one with the "only good players" argument that gets thrown around so much, as if the class was this humanly unattainable cryptic mystery impossible to play save for a few godly individuals who "magically" bring out this "magical A damage near spellbreaker/soulbeasts level of damage", specially compared with a Rampage, or Wolf pack burst......

 

Most eles suck. The same way most Rangers are unaware there are skills outside of the auto attack and for the majority of the recent expansion the masses were claiming Soul Beast was trash when in reality it could rival with mirage, scourge and basically all the elite specs pre nerfs.

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"Griever.8150" said:

> Unless you plan to actually support what's the purpose of playing Scrapper over Prot Holo, exactly?

 

Prot holo does significantly more damage, is almost as tanky, and also does cleanse support.

[Fortus.6175]

> @"JayAction.9056" said:

> > @"Fortus.6175" said:

> > I just find it funny that out of all the classes, the only one with a description is the weaver one with the "only good players" argument that gets thrown around so much, as if the class was this humanly unattainable cryptic mystery impossible to play save for a few godly individuals who "magically" bring out this "magical A damage near spellbreaker/soulbeasts level of damage", specially compared with a Rampage, or Wolf pack burst......

>

> Most eles suck. The same way most Rangers are unaware there are skills outside of the auto attack and for the majority of the recent expansion the masses were claiming Soul Beast was trash when in reality it could rival with mirage, scourge and basically all the elite specs pre nerfs.

 

I dont see enough eles to be able to make an informed decision on whether most of them suck or not (which to me is already an indication that something is wrong considering that eles are the second most played class after ranger based on some old stats). But that aside, certainly playing ele is not as ~~brain dead~~ simple as playing spellbreaker or rangers, (and please guys, dont give me the "positioning and map rotation" argument, that is independent of builds) but they arent exactly impossible to figure out. Sure there are more skills to remember, but engis can potentially have even more of them with gadgets yet you see people playing them, same with revenants with weapon swap + legend swaps.

 

People, please, eles are not that difficult to figure out, they are not doing so hot because they are simply weak right now, good players will be good regardless, they will bring the best out of any build, if you see someone being good at ele, you can bet your butt that if they spend half of that time playing some stronger class, they will do well, and in fact I climbed 2 divisions and a half in a SINGLE day by playing a power LB pew-pew self-crafted soulbeast build all the way to nearly p2, **IN A SINGLE DAY**.

 

Look man, my point is, I just want people to stop throwing the "good ele" argument so much around to justify the poor state of eles, ask all eles that have rerolled and are hanging out on the top of the ladder with other more meta builds how they actually feel about it. Ele is fun, some people like me play them not because they are into winning ranked, but because they want to play using the class they like, and nobody likes losing. Saying that a weaver has more damage and utility than scrapper is wrong, saying that a weaver hits stronger and applies more pressure than a spellbreaker or soulbeast is wrong. Saying that good eles can do it, doesnt take away that if the same player decided to get on those spellbreaker/soulbeast/scrapper builds you will be wishing they stayed on ele, limited by the strength of their class rather than taking a class that could bring out their whole potential as players.