Odik.4587 Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Fortus.6175" said: > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > Wait for a 6months or 1-2 years until they nerf it. If any class that overperform is not thief its fine (even if thief is underperforming they must be nerfed to be unplayble) > > > > > > > > FTFY. This has been happening to thieves long before mesmer, and is still going. > > > > > > I find it so funny that thieves are always complaining about how "bad" and "nerfed" they are yet in the 6 years of GW2, they have been a constant in competitive play, and are found in all ranks, always have had at least 1 viable build and despite multiple nerfs, they keep finding strong meta builds: > > > > > > https://metabattle.com/wiki/Conquest > > > https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief_-_Marauder_S/D > > > > > > You can like or dislike this website all you want, but they only record the builds played by people in AT and ranked matches, it is peer reviewed and up to voting. They are on the highest tier (have had builds there for as long as the website has existed). > > > > > > But nope, thieves are poor poor creatures who have no viable builds nor role that has remained uncontested, without the unmatched decaping capabilities, one of the strongest 1v1 and +1 build in existence that is the support killer, nope, not at all. > > > Like, is anyone fooled by these comments anymore? I understand the complains when it comes from necros, revs and eles at different times, but thieves? Cmon.. > > > > Of course Thief remains Meta. They have Shortbow 5. However, you are critically wrong on one aspect. "One of the strongest 1v1 builds in existence". The correct wording would be "the single *weakest* 1v1 build in existence". Unless the enemy thief is much better than you are, you should *never* be losing the 1v1 on any build that wants to 1v1. Hell, even most teamfighting builds that usually struggle in 1v1 still should not lose to thief. The problem with thief is that while it will always be strong, because being able to move around the map twice as fast as any other class, in a gamemode where standing on points is the best thing you can do, is incredibly strong, its arguably not very engaging or satisfying. The class was pitched as the standin for assassin. A rogue class. A class you expect to be very strong in 1v1s in exchange for being very weak in teamfights. Instead, you get sPvPs Janitor. Always neccessary, but I imagine not the job most people find fulfilling. > > > > Edit: Oh and since I forgot, the reason people complain about thief nerfs, is what they target. Any time a thief build appears, that actually can win *some* 1v1s, it immideatly gets nerfed. Sometimes even builds that arent even good enough for that randomly get nerfed. Those nerfs obviously do nothing about Thieves meta status because none ever touched shortbow 5, but they make trying to play thief as a dueling class even more pointless. > > Adding to this, you would think the one with the mobility, and the role of being an assassin would not only be responsible for going deep into enemy lines to decap/cap. But also eliminate anyone they find roaming alone, weakened, or far from their group in team fights. But nope, can't do that. Thief can't out trade any reasonable build. > Mr delusional thief main stop quotting me . Amount of nonsense you spit is so insane that I dont even want to prove you are wrong in every sentence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > It's a matter of perspective. > > > If you take into account thieves regularly suggest stuff as an F skill that does shortbow 5, dd dodge costing 15 endurance, backstab insta kill, death blossom marking a target and teleporting to the target at will with 10000 range, rifle 2000 range on deadeye, etc, yes they're really really weak. > > > On the other hand if you have a minor clue about balance they're not weak. > > > > > > Also laughing at worst 1v1 build in existence. Typical "we're so weak, we only win because we're so skillfull" talk thieves love to spew. > > > > That would imply that a good thief goes for 1v1s. You dont. There is a reason why the first thing new thieves learn is "avoid even fights". Thieves win because points > kills, and decapping does a lot to give your team points. > > > > But, if youre so sure that thieves are good at 1v1s, then surely you would be willing to play thief in ranked without shortbow, yes? Or make it even more interesting. No shortbow, no Daredevil. Just core SD with whatever alternative weaponset you want. Or would that be when you admit that thief in fact cannot 1v1 reasonably? > > There are more +1 builds in game, thieves just do better than those. > There are some builds that are countered by thieves, so no, you're not the weakest build in existence. > Also ds is one of the most broken stuff in game. Yes, thieves do +1 better than others. Because they get there faster. Mind you, if we compare +1ing in terms of "how effective are they once they are there", then no, thief is again, considerably worse than Mesmer, Engineer, Warrior, Ranger, Revenant, etc. etc.. Weakest *1v1* build in existence. Besides, the only builds I can think of that get "countered" (already a strong word) are specifically teamfight builds that struggle in 1v1s. Yknow, like scourge. Another build that gets told to avoid 1v1s. That does not make thief any less bad at 1v1. It just means that non-1v1 builds are worse at 1v1s. Which I already said. Daggerstorm? Yknow, its not bad, but I find it funny that 4 seconds of pseudo-invulnerability is a problem when thief has it on a 90 second cooldown, but totally fine when other classes can do it at a fraction of that cooldown. Especially since those other classes actually survive well. At first I thought maybe its the damage, but the damage isnt exactly impressive either, especially outside of teamfights (Which thief isnt great at to begin with). Still, its funny how you quick you were to deflect when I pointed out that without Shortbow 5, thief is nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 > @"Fortus.6175" said: > > @"djoun.3425" said: > > It's also useless > > Yup, I too find the barriers, condi covertion, improved shadow refuge with lower CD, self and team healing, superspeed, node sustain power and mid fight team support completely useless. They should add a skill that lets them get barrier every 3 seconds when they get hit, that way they can negate some of the damage they receive, as well as make it so that every condi they convert have no ICD like literally any other strong GM trait along those lines. Personally Im looking forward to the buffs so they can be useful for their team. You know... the odd part is. With how complicated Engie can get. I'm totally fine with this, as they live and die by their utility bar. The shadow refuge is questionable though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pah.4931 Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 Game mode is the problem, not the balance. Things will always be borked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > It's a matter of perspective. > > > > If you take into account thieves regularly suggest stuff as an F skill that does shortbow 5, dd dodge costing 15 endurance, backstab insta kill, death blossom marking a target and teleporting to the target at will with 10000 range, rifle 2000 range on deadeye, etc, yes they're really really weak. > > > > On the other hand if you have a minor clue about balance they're not weak. > > > > > > > > Also laughing at worst 1v1 build in existence. Typical "we're so weak, we only win because we're so skillfull" talk thieves love to spew. > > > > > > That would imply that a good thief goes for 1v1s. You dont. There is a reason why the first thing new thieves learn is "avoid even fights". Thieves win because points > kills, and decapping does a lot to give your team points. > > > > > > But, if youre so sure that thieves are good at 1v1s, then surely you would be willing to play thief in ranked without shortbow, yes? Or make it even more interesting. No shortbow, no Daredevil. Just core SD with whatever alternative weaponset you want. Or would that be when you admit that thief in fact cannot 1v1 reasonably? > > > > There are more +1 builds in game, thieves just do better than those. > > There are some builds that are countered by thieves, so no, you're not the weakest build in existence. > > Also ds is one of the most broken stuff in game. > > Yes, thieves do +1 better than others. Because they get there faster. Mind you, if we compare +1ing in terms of "how effective are they once they are there", then no, thief is again, considerably worse than Mesmer, Engineer, Warrior, Ranger, Revenant, etc. etc.. > > Weakest *1v1* build in existence. Besides, the only builds I can think of that get "countered" (already a strong word) are specifically teamfight builds that struggle in 1v1s. Yknow, like scourge. Another build that gets told to avoid 1v1s. That does not make thief any less bad at 1v1. It just means that non-1v1 builds are worse at 1v1s. Which I already said. > > Daggerstorm? Yknow, its not bad, but I find it funny that 4 seconds of pseudo-invulnerability is a problem when thief has it on a 90 second cooldown, but totally fine when other classes can do it at a fraction of that cooldown. Especially since those other classes actually survive well. At first I thought maybe its the damage, but the damage isnt exactly impressive either, especially outside of teamfights (Which thief isnt great at to begin with). > > Still, its funny how you quick you were to deflect when I pointed out that without Shortbow 5, thief is nothing. There are more, Fat Disgrace mentioned some others in this same thread. Yeah dagger storm only does 4sec pseudo invuln... and doesn't usually get refreshed by improvisation or anything. Poor thieves, don't even have good elites... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > It's a matter of perspective. > > > > > If you take into account thieves regularly suggest stuff as an F skill that does shortbow 5, dd dodge costing 15 endurance, backstab insta kill, death blossom marking a target and teleporting to the target at will with 10000 range, rifle 2000 range on deadeye, etc, yes they're really really weak. > > > > > On the other hand if you have a minor clue about balance they're not weak. > > > > > > > > > > Also laughing at worst 1v1 build in existence. Typical "we're so weak, we only win because we're so skillfull" talk thieves love to spew. > > > > > > > > That would imply that a good thief goes for 1v1s. You dont. There is a reason why the first thing new thieves learn is "avoid even fights". Thieves win because points > kills, and decapping does a lot to give your team points. > > > > > > > > But, if youre so sure that thieves are good at 1v1s, then surely you would be willing to play thief in ranked without shortbow, yes? Or make it even more interesting. No shortbow, no Daredevil. Just core SD with whatever alternative weaponset you want. Or would that be when you admit that thief in fact cannot 1v1 reasonably? > > > > > > There are more +1 builds in game, thieves just do better than those. > > > There are some builds that are countered by thieves, so no, you're not the weakest build in existence. > > > Also ds is one of the most broken stuff in game. > > > > Yes, thieves do +1 better than others. Because they get there faster. Mind you, if we compare +1ing in terms of "how effective are they once they are there", then no, thief is again, considerably worse than Mesmer, Engineer, Warrior, Ranger, Revenant, etc. etc.. > > > > Weakest *1v1* build in existence. Besides, the only builds I can think of that get "countered" (already a strong word) are specifically teamfight builds that struggle in 1v1s. Yknow, like scourge. Another build that gets told to avoid 1v1s. That does not make thief any less bad at 1v1. It just means that non-1v1 builds are worse at 1v1s. Which I already said. > > > > Daggerstorm? Yknow, its not bad, but I find it funny that 4 seconds of pseudo-invulnerability is a problem when thief has it on a 90 second cooldown, but totally fine when other classes can do it at a fraction of that cooldown. Especially since those other classes actually survive well. At first I thought maybe its the damage, but the damage isnt exactly impressive either, especially outside of teamfights (Which thief isnt great at to begin with). > > > > Still, its funny how you quick you were to deflect when I pointed out that without Shortbow 5, thief is nothing. > > There are more, Fat Disgrace mentioned some others in this same thread. > Yeah dagger storm only does 4sec pseudo invuln... and doesn't usually get refreshed by improvisation or anything. Poor thieves, don't even have good elites... Power Mes actually is good vs thief. Like, unbelievably good. Even Condi Mes doesnt struggle vs thief, even though thief can get 5+ seconds of Resistance with Consume Plasma. Power Rev is an odd case though. I know it has that reputation, but I play a fair amount of Power Rev, and I cant say thief was ever anything than a mild nuisance at best. Its extremely rare that I lose a 1v1 against a thief, and usually thats because I ran out of endurance while they are on Deadeye. Youre right. Usually, it doesnt get refreshed by Improvisation. The chance is, at best, 20%. So yes, it only does 4 second of pseudo-invuln. Its still good, but not even remotely as good as you make it out to be. But I get the feeling your bias is getting in the way of your objectivity. Its clear you want to believe that thief is great at 1v1s when it clearly isnt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megametzler.5729 Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > It's a matter of perspective. > > > > > > If you take into account thieves regularly suggest stuff as an F skill that does shortbow 5, dd dodge costing 15 endurance, backstab insta kill, death blossom marking a target and teleporting to the target at will with 10000 range, rifle 2000 range on deadeye, etc, yes they're really really weak. > > > > > > On the other hand if you have a minor clue about balance they're not weak. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also laughing at worst 1v1 build in existence. Typical "we're so weak, we only win because we're so skillfull" talk thieves love to spew. > > > > > > > > > > That would imply that a good thief goes for 1v1s. You dont. There is a reason why the first thing new thieves learn is "avoid even fights". Thieves win because points > kills, and decapping does a lot to give your team points. > > > > > > > > > > But, if youre so sure that thieves are good at 1v1s, then surely you would be willing to play thief in ranked without shortbow, yes? Or make it even more interesting. No shortbow, no Daredevil. Just core SD with whatever alternative weaponset you want. Or would that be when you admit that thief in fact cannot 1v1 reasonably? > > > > > > > > There are more +1 builds in game, thieves just do better than those. > > > > There are some builds that are countered by thieves, so no, you're not the weakest build in existence. > > > > Also ds is one of the most broken stuff in game. > > > > > > Yes, thieves do +1 better than others. Because they get there faster. Mind you, if we compare +1ing in terms of "how effective are they once they are there", then no, thief is again, considerably worse than Mesmer, Engineer, Warrior, Ranger, Revenant, etc. etc.. > > > > > > Weakest *1v1* build in existence. Besides, the only builds I can think of that get "countered" (already a strong word) are specifically teamfight builds that struggle in 1v1s. Yknow, like scourge. Another build that gets told to avoid 1v1s. That does not make thief any less bad at 1v1. It just means that non-1v1 builds are worse at 1v1s. Which I already said. > > > > > > Daggerstorm? Yknow, its not bad, but I find it funny that 4 seconds of pseudo-invulnerability is a problem when thief has it on a 90 second cooldown, but totally fine when other classes can do it at a fraction of that cooldown. Especially since those other classes actually survive well. At first I thought maybe its the damage, but the damage isnt exactly impressive either, especially outside of teamfights (Which thief isnt great at to begin with). > > > > > > Still, its funny how you quick you were to deflect when I pointed out that without Shortbow 5, thief is nothing. > > > > There are more, Fat Disgrace mentioned some others in this same thread. > > Yeah dagger storm only does 4sec pseudo invuln... and doesn't usually get refreshed by improvisation or anything. Poor thieves, don't even have good elites... > > Power Mes actually is good vs thief. Like, unbelievably good. (...) Only power mirage. CS nerf made thief power chrono's arch enemy again. :sad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > It's a matter of perspective. > > > > > > If you take into account thieves regularly suggest stuff as an F skill that does shortbow 5, dd dodge costing 15 endurance, backstab insta kill, death blossom marking a target and teleporting to the target at will with 10000 range, rifle 2000 range on deadeye, etc, yes they're really really weak. > > > > > > On the other hand if you have a minor clue about balance they're not weak. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also laughing at worst 1v1 build in existence. Typical "we're so weak, we only win because we're so skillfull" talk thieves love to spew. > > > > > > > > > > That would imply that a good thief goes for 1v1s. You dont. There is a reason why the first thing new thieves learn is "avoid even fights". Thieves win because points > kills, and decapping does a lot to give your team points. > > > > > > > > > > But, if youre so sure that thieves are good at 1v1s, then surely you would be willing to play thief in ranked without shortbow, yes? Or make it even more interesting. No shortbow, no Daredevil. Just core SD with whatever alternative weaponset you want. Or would that be when you admit that thief in fact cannot 1v1 reasonably? > > > > > > > > There are more +1 builds in game, thieves just do better than those. > > > > There are some builds that are countered by thieves, so no, you're not the weakest build in existence. > > > > Also ds is one of the most broken stuff in game. > > > > > > Yes, thieves do +1 better than others. Because they get there faster. Mind you, if we compare +1ing in terms of "how effective are they once they are there", then no, thief is again, considerably worse than Mesmer, Engineer, Warrior, Ranger, Revenant, etc. etc.. > > > > > > Weakest *1v1* build in existence. Besides, the only builds I can think of that get "countered" (already a strong word) are specifically teamfight builds that struggle in 1v1s. Yknow, like scourge. Another build that gets told to avoid 1v1s. That does not make thief any less bad at 1v1. It just means that non-1v1 builds are worse at 1v1s. Which I already said. > > > > > > Daggerstorm? Yknow, its not bad, but I find it funny that 4 seconds of pseudo-invulnerability is a problem when thief has it on a 90 second cooldown, but totally fine when other classes can do it at a fraction of that cooldown. Especially since those other classes actually survive well. At first I thought maybe its the damage, but the damage isnt exactly impressive either, especially outside of teamfights (Which thief isnt great at to begin with). > > > > > > Still, its funny how you quick you were to deflect when I pointed out that without Shortbow 5, thief is nothing. > > > > There are more, Fat Disgrace mentioned some others in this same thread. > > Yeah dagger storm only does 4sec pseudo invuln... and doesn't usually get refreshed by improvisation or anything. Poor thieves, don't even have good elites... > > Power Mes actually is good vs thief. Like, unbelievably good. lul I rest my case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 > @"Swagg.9236" said: > Thief will always be in meta range because they aren't bound by weapon skill cooldowns in a game that is entirely balanced by cooldowns. Slap a low effort teleport skill onto any of those weapons, and it's in the meta for free every day. This, particularly the second part. Thieves will be in the meta specifically because they can decap faster than any other class in most cases, regardless of whether they can actually win 1v1s vs anything tankier than the squishiest of builds. That doesn't mean their players enjoy being shoehorned into decap, merely that you cannot use their meta presence as a justification for continuously nerfing them. Their balance is pretty brittle, tbh, as of right now I think it's in a decent spot compared to most of the other meta builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > It's a matter of perspective. > > > > > > > If you take into account thieves regularly suggest stuff as an F skill that does shortbow 5, dd dodge costing 15 endurance, backstab insta kill, death blossom marking a target and teleporting to the target at will with 10000 range, rifle 2000 range on deadeye, etc, yes they're really really weak. > > > > > > > On the other hand if you have a minor clue about balance they're not weak. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also laughing at worst 1v1 build in existence. Typical "we're so weak, we only win because we're so skillfull" talk thieves love to spew. > > > > > > > > > > > > That would imply that a good thief goes for 1v1s. You dont. There is a reason why the first thing new thieves learn is "avoid even fights". Thieves win because points > kills, and decapping does a lot to give your team points. > > > > > > > > > > > > But, if youre so sure that thieves are good at 1v1s, then surely you would be willing to play thief in ranked without shortbow, yes? Or make it even more interesting. No shortbow, no Daredevil. Just core SD with whatever alternative weaponset you want. Or would that be when you admit that thief in fact cannot 1v1 reasonably? > > > > > > > > > > There are more +1 builds in game, thieves just do better than those. > > > > > There are some builds that are countered by thieves, so no, you're not the weakest build in existence. > > > > > Also ds is one of the most broken stuff in game. > > > > > > > > Yes, thieves do +1 better than others. Because they get there faster. Mind you, if we compare +1ing in terms of "how effective are they once they are there", then no, thief is again, considerably worse than Mesmer, Engineer, Warrior, Ranger, Revenant, etc. etc.. > > > > > > > > Weakest *1v1* build in existence. Besides, the only builds I can think of that get "countered" (already a strong word) are specifically teamfight builds that struggle in 1v1s. Yknow, like scourge. Another build that gets told to avoid 1v1s. That does not make thief any less bad at 1v1. It just means that non-1v1 builds are worse at 1v1s. Which I already said. > > > > > > > > Daggerstorm? Yknow, its not bad, but I find it funny that 4 seconds of pseudo-invulnerability is a problem when thief has it on a 90 second cooldown, but totally fine when other classes can do it at a fraction of that cooldown. Especially since those other classes actually survive well. At first I thought maybe its the damage, but the damage isnt exactly impressive either, especially outside of teamfights (Which thief isnt great at to begin with). > > > > > > > > Still, its funny how you quick you were to deflect when I pointed out that without Shortbow 5, thief is nothing. > > > > > > There are more, Fat Disgrace mentioned some others in this same thread. > > > Yeah dagger storm only does 4sec pseudo invuln... and doesn't usually get refreshed by improvisation or anything. Poor thieves, don't even have good elites... > > > > Power Mes actually is good vs thief. Like, unbelievably good. (...) > > Only power mirage. CS nerf made thief power chrono's arch enemy again. :sad: > Fair, but Power Chrono isnt exactly a good build anyway, so I dont really count it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > Power Mes actually is good vs thief. Like, unbelievably good. Dangerously inaccurate. >Even Condi Mes doesn't struggle vs thief Closer to the truth. Condi Mirages (at least as of the patch before the most recent) yes, Condi Core, -maybe-. But, depending on the thief spec they can eat condi mesmers too. The problem is it takes too much time to consider unless you NEED the point the mesmer is on. You don't realistically fight a class that can just -leave- on thief unless you're absolutely sure you're getting that kill or the objective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpretor.3091 Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 It’s the same as Weaver. All survivabilty, no kill potential. Dies all the same after a 1+. Spellbreakers can kill it eventually with Dagger Boonstrip into Rampage. This community has such kneejerk reactions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 Oh, right, the topic > @"Abazigal.3679" said: > > @"Griever.8150" said: > > It has no damage and can barely move around. How Holo isn't better in every possible way? > > Quite this. It's actually good if your opponents aren't smart enough and try to 1v2 or 1v3 you, but otherwise, the carrying potential is close to none, and you're too dependent on teammates. > That being said, it's really easy to survive with at average rating, even by using skills on recharge, and maybe the skill cap from this build could be increased a bit. It's a bit astounding to see this community continuously embrace bunker builds that can singlehandedly control nodes until they are +1ed time and time again, when time and time again they have proven to themselves that they _hate bunker meta,_ just because the spec was underpowered for a while. We were here with Druid, Spellbreaker, Ventari Rev, Turret Engie, EleBunker, Chronobunker, Boonbeast, and probably several other iterations I can't recall right away, and every time another bunker shows up people keep floating "just 1v2 it!" as justification for why it's immortal 1v1. I haven't looked at the rotation scrapper has now; this patch is too new, but judging from the patch notes it looks like we're revisiting point contest meta again and at this point I'm not surprised. **I'll gladly eat my words** if it turns out to not become a major headache in a few months as people drift to it; after all, nobody has said much about weaver, but I'm kind of flabbergasted that no small amount of people are willfully refusing to treat the idea of node-locking without a bit of skepticism. TL;DR Too early to tell, do we want bunker meta again though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > Power Mes actually is good vs thief. Like, unbelievably good. > > Dangerously inaccurate. > > >Even Condi Mes doesn't struggle vs thief > > Closer to the truth. Condi Mirages (at least as of the patch before the most recent) yes, Condi Core, -maybe-. But, depending on the thief spec they can eat condi mesmers too. The problem is it takes too much time to consider unless you NEED the point the mesmer is on. You don't realistically fight a class that can just -leave- on thief unless you're absolutely sure you're getting that kill or the objective. > > Nah, Power Mirage eats thieves for breakfast. Its really hard to lose that 1v1 as the Mirage. Condi Mirage has trouble because of resistance, but even then its usually a lopsided matchup. Assuming you play tiered Mesmer builds, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaShi.1368 Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 While this thread is about scrapper, I do want to say this about thief. Thieves got screwed because they got what they wanted. They wanted a rifle sniper class. The problem is that that is a very challenging class to balance in GW2 PvP (and there's never been a PvE meta that could use it). It's either too powerful or too vulnerable. So thieves basically got screwed out of their PoF specialization. Fortunately, DD and Core thief have still been viable, but the updates to all the other specs have slowly been creeping past them. In the next patch, thief needs a serious look at or it may fall into ele status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fortus.6175 Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > @"Swagg.9236" said: > > Thief will always be in meta range because they aren't bound by weapon skill cooldowns in a game that is entirely balanced by cooldowns. Slap a low effort teleport skill onto any of those weapons, and it's in the meta for free every day. > > This, particularly the second part. > > Thieves will be in the meta specifically because they can decap faster than any other class in most cases, regardless of whether they can actually win 1v1s vs anything tankier than the squishiest of builds. > > That doesn't mean their players enjoy being shoehorned into decap, merely that you cannot use their meta presence as a justification for continuously nerfing them. > > Their balance is pretty brittle, tbh, as of right now I think it's in a decent spot compared to most of the other meta builds. Then something has got to give, because the very thing that makes them such good decappers can also get them away from almost any fight easily, as well as make them the first ones to answer to a call for reinforcement. I too wouldnt like a class I like from a thematic point of view to have a role that isnt paired with my idea of what the class should be (no matter what, everyone has a different head cannon on what a class should be about, and it is very unlikely we will ever have a unifying thought on that regard because thats just human nature). But thieves do fill a very important and uncontested role for all that matters, and if thieves dont like it, then they need to ask for a shift in power, because they ARE strong, so asking for straight up buffs is not the right thing. Some classes dont even have a role, or working build for that matter, and their class fantasy is non-existent at this point. Those are the ones that need the most help, thieves are not one of those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > Power Mes actually is good vs thief. Like, unbelievably good. > > > > Dangerously inaccurate. > > > > >Even Condi Mes doesn't struggle vs thief > > > > Closer to the truth. Condi Mirages (at least as of the patch before the most recent) yes, Condi Core, -maybe-. But, depending on the thief spec they can eat condi mesmers too. The problem is it takes too much time to consider unless you NEED the point the mesmer is on. You don't realistically fight a class that can just -leave- on thief unless you're absolutely sure you're getting that kill or the objective. > > > > > > Nah, Power Mirage eats thieves for breakfast. Its really hard to lose that 1v1 as the Mirage. Condi Mirage has trouble because of resistance, but even then its usually a lopsided matchup. Assuming you play tiered Mesmer builds, of course. L O L The delusions are too strong in this one . I'm having a heart attack here ! Someone help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crinn.7864 Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > TL;DR Too early to tell, do we want bunker meta again though? I do. Necros have always done well in bunker metas. Although I doubt this qualifies as a bunker meta. People like to throw the term around to conjure up fear of a season 1 repeat, but really the modern meta is nothing at all like the actual s1 bunker meta that everyone is afraid of returning to. Being able to stall 1v1 indefinitely is not a bunker meta, there have always been classes that can do that. The bunker meta was when classes could stall 1vX indefinitely, such as Chronobunkers turning entire matches into a 0 kill, 0 nodeflip snoozefest. We ain't anywhere near that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fortus.6175 Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > I can't recall right away, and every time another bunker shows up people keep floating "just 1v2 it!" as justification for why it's immortal 1v1. > > if it turns out to not become a major headache in a few months as people drift to it; after all, nobody has said much about weaver, but I'm kind of flabbergasted that no small amount of people are willfully refusing to treat the idea of node-locking without a bit of skepticism. Nobody really complains about weavers because A ) they are not common B ) most complains I have seen have been on my side of the team, ~~demanding~~ asking me to change ~~or they afk and/or report since "it is a lost game anyways"~~ C ) Like most bunkers, not only cant it not kill you, but it cant force a decap overtime (whereas some scrapper builds can little by little knock you out enough for a total of the 4 seconds needed to decap). If you already hold the node, then it is a tickle battle back and forth, and at that point the weaver's enemy likes the whole 4v4 with a ticking point in their favor. D ) It wont ~~clear~~ convert all the condis your scourage is inflicting on the enemy team into boons, it wont give barrier teamwide, it wont secure most revives and give superspeed and barriers to the revived person and self, give teamwide boons and reflect, or a shadow refuge that is mobile and can be blasted for more stealth or used to revive people even more reliably, nor survive many if not most 2v1 without needed to step away for a sec at times to get a breather and thus allowing to recap or at least decap a momentarily capped point. Sure they fill similar "roles", but scrapper is very useful in teamfights too, and much of their sustain allows them to stay within the node, whereas weavers have higher burst healing, but have some downtime between sustain bursts, so at times they need to step away from the point when a 2v1 comes to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 > @"Odik.4587" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > Power Mes actually is good vs thief. Like, unbelievably good. > > > > > > Dangerously inaccurate. > > > > > > >Even Condi Mes doesn't struggle vs thief > > > > > > Closer to the truth. Condi Mirages (at least as of the patch before the most recent) yes, Condi Core, -maybe-. But, depending on the thief spec they can eat condi mesmers too. The problem is it takes too much time to consider unless you NEED the point the mesmer is on. You don't realistically fight a class that can just -leave- on thief unless you're absolutely sure you're getting that kill or the objective. > > > > > > > > > > Nah, Power Mirage eats thieves for breakfast. Its really hard to lose that 1v1 as the Mirage. Condi Mirage has trouble because of resistance, but even then its usually a lopsided matchup. Assuming you play tiered Mesmer builds, of course. > > L O L > The delusions are too strong in this one . I'm having a heart attack here ! Someone help! Ah, yes, the classic "I have no argument, and know he is right, but I cant admit that, so I just go for ad hominems". Nevermind that even Power Mirage players (few though they may be) will tell you that thief is an easy matchup. Not that its very surprising, when you do more damage and survive better than a thief, its hard to lose the matchup. Especially when one plays a build where cleave would be the central weakness. Something thieves are rather ineffective at. Perhaps you had heard that Condi Mirage was countered by thieves (which was true, before they swapped over to the current chaos Staff builds), and thought that all mirages are countered by thieves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 > @"Fortus.6175" said: > if thieves dont like it, then they need to ask for a shift in power, because they ARE strong, so asking for straight up buffs is not the right thing. Some classes dont even have a role, or working build for that matter, and their class fantasy is non-existent at this point. Those are the ones that need the most help, thieves are not one of those. Agreed, partly. On a top level, thieves are strong. Good ones doubly so. They can turn the tide of a match. On a granular level, they are weak. They cannot contest 1v1 vs many run of the mill specs without wasting time or outright losing, and the ones they -CAN- contest are usually not going to sidenodes where they will be easy prey very often. Their strength lies in being able to pick and choose their battles, as well as being able to drop in on stales and flip them easily, then leave just as quickly. If you want to BUFF thieves because you cant 1v1, you need to heavily consider what you are willing to give up in terms of mobility to make brawling/dueling happen, but at he same time, the inverse is true. If you want to NERF thieves because for some reason they do too much damage to you while fully devoted to the role prescribed to them (namely, this thief dropped in on me 1vX, this thief keeps taking potshots at me from outside the point and I only have so many dodges) , you also need to consider what you would like them to be doing instead. Nobody is going to play a class that can do nothing but run, especially not in pvp. > @"Crinn.7864" said: > We ain't anywhere near that. Just being cautious. I sure as hell don't want the node-cap scene to turn into "which team has the most X that can go set up on point first". Not saying I don't think this ABSOLUTELY CANT work, just pointing out that I keep seeing "just 1v2" and it's causing flashbacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > @"Fortus.6175" said: > > if thieves dont like it, then they need to ask for a shift in power, because they ARE strong, so asking for straight up buffs is not the right thing. Some classes dont even have a role, or working build for that matter, and their class fantasy is non-existent at this point. Those are the ones that need the most help, thieves are not one of those. > > Agreed, partly. > > On a top level, thieves are strong. Good ones doubly so. They can turn the tide of a match. > > On a granular level, they are weak. They cannot contest 1v1 vs many run of the mill specs without wasting time or outright losing, and the ones they -CAN- contest are usually not going to sidenodes where they will be easy prey very often. Their strength lies in being able to pick and choose their battles, as well as being able to drop in on stales and flip them easily, then leave just as quickly. > > If you want to BUFF thieves because you cant 1v1, you need to heavily consider what you are willing to give up in terms of mobility to make brawling/dueling happen, but at he same time, the inverse is true. If you want to NERF thieves because for some reason they do too much damage to you while fully devoted to the role prescribed to them (namely, this thief dropped in on me 1vX, this thief keeps taking potshots at me from outside the point and I only have so many dodges, you also need to consider what you would like them to be doing instead. Nobody is going to play a class that can do nothing but run, especially not in pvp. > > > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > We ain't anywhere near that. > Just being cautious. I sure as hell don't want the node-cap scene to turn into "which team has the most X that can go set up on point first". Not saying I don't think this ABSOLUTELY CANT work, just pointing out that I keep seeing "just 1v2" and it's causing flashbacks. > > > > Honestly, Id actually propose a rather *very* radical solution. Take away thieves ability to weaponswap in sPvP. More precisely, you only have 1 weapon set. For the purpose of "on weapon swap" runes, sigils and traits, you would retain the ability, but outside of triggering those, weapon swapping would do nothing. This way, a thief has to make the conscious choice themselves, whether they want to have unparalleled mobility, but exceptionally poor combat ability, or strong combat ability, but average mobility. Naturally, in exchange the combat ability of the other weapon sets would have to buffed drastically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > Honestly, Id actually propose a rather *very* radical solution. Take away thieves ability to weaponswap in sPvP. More precisely, you only have 1 weapon set. For the purpose of "on weapon swap" runes, sigils and traits, you would retain the ability, but outside of triggering those, weapon swapping would do nothing. This way, a thief has to make the conscious choice themselves, whether they want to have unparalleled mobility, but exceptionally poor combat ability, or strong combat ability, but average mobility. Naturally, in exchange the combat ability of the other weapon sets would have to buffed drastically. Why is your solution to the brittleness of thief's balancing issue to shoehorn them further into doing one thing? You'd be forcing them to either be decap only or a watered down version of +1 for no reason. As I just mentioned, a frail class that has high mobility but next to no combat skill would not be played in pvp (and most likely anyone that tried would be harassed for being dead weight), and on the other hand, you have a frail class with buffed damage that by nature of its utilities is _still pretty darn mobile and has access to stealth._ Keep in mind people complain about rifle thief right now. It's fine atm. high mobility, average damage, frail is a tightrope act, but it's working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 > @"Odik.4587" said: > Sounds like a terrible thief trying to make look power mirage (even worse with 0.75s dodge) almighy while poor thief is weak and defenseless .Another crybaby theif with victim syndrome :joy: > So far as I know Azure is thief main and he alrdy said you are absurdly wrong . > Each time you lose to pmirage,consider to uninstall lad I'm a pocket thief but I regularly beat power mirages and, if I get the drop, condi ones. That being said, prepatch condi mirages wiped every other class I played unless I played flawlessly and, even then, there were small windows where they had a chance of downing. That mention of beating condi mirages only applies to my thief. Power ones are less obnoxious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > Honestly, Id actually propose a rather *very* radical solution. Take away thieves ability to weaponswap in sPvP. More precisely, you only have 1 weapon set. For the purpose of "on weapon swap" runes, sigils and traits, you would retain the ability, but outside of triggering those, weapon swapping would do nothing. This way, a thief has to make the conscious choice themselves, whether they want to have unparalleled mobility, but exceptionally poor combat ability, or strong combat ability, but average mobility. Naturally, in exchange the combat ability of the other weapon sets would have to buffed drastically. > > Why is your solution to the brittleness of thief's balancing issue to shoehorn them further into doing one thing? > > You'd be forcing them to either be decap only or a watered down version of +1 for no reason. As I just mentioned, a frail class that has high mobility but next to no combat skill would not be played in pvp (and most likely anyone that tried would be harassed for being dead weight), and on the other hand, you have a frail class with buffed damage that by nature of its utilities is _still pretty darn mobile and has access to stealth._ Keep in mind people complain about rifle thief right now. > > It's fine atm. high mobility, average damage, frail is a tightrope act, but it's working. > > > And Id say, it would. Ultimately, the points are what matters most in sPvP. Just being more mobile than everyone else is a big enough deal, as it stands you only decap and +1 as a thief anyway. Besides, the point isnt to shoehorn them into doing one thing, its to drag them out of that state. As it stands, if you play thief, you play a decap and +1 bot, you dont have any other option. If you could alternatively play thief as a duelist, a class that focuses more on sidenoding by fighting, rather than just standing on them and running away when someone else gets there, youd already have more options. It would also allow for thief to be buffed in teamfighting capabilities, which would further potentially allow diversity in builds. Thief is viable, but its pretty damn one-note. And its a note that I imagine not a lot of thief players, current or former, are happy with. I know I stopped playing thief because of it ages ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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