Gatvin.6510 Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > I've found a strange kinship with Obtena here, because I'm seeing him try to convince the guardian forum that they're wrong about Righteous Indignation, and seeing similar blowback from players who just don't like it. All my admiration for his tenacity aside, I do not have the strength to carry on as such. > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > being weaker in a straight brawl is perfectly fine, if they have superior mobility, stealth and burst and are allowed to use them. currently they are not in WvW. > > > > This... is part of the idea that I am trying to convey. It is _design philosophy_ that I talking about. All of these other nitpicks, tangents, and distractions aside, I have but one question for you: **Do you understand what I am saying?** From the first post I made in this thread: do you get it? > > I do not care if you think thieves are currently too weak. That is an aside. > I do not care what other advantages another class may have. That is an aside. > I do not care if another class has one or more skills similar to the thief. That is an aside. > I do not care if thieves do not currently have an identity. That is an aside. > I do not care about the specifics of the current sPVP format. That is an aside. > I do not care about the specifics of the current WvW format. That is an aside. > I do not care how easily or hard you think it is to access these skills. That is an aside. > I do not care how much your feelings get hurt by losing a fight. That is utterly irrelevant. > > Do you, or do you not, agree that it is unfair design to have a class that can always chase down another player and easily kill them while being completely invisible? If you do, then you understand why thief balance is such a precarious issue. If you do not, only then do I demand an explanation. You're VASTLY overselling the state of thief. If such a class existed, it WOULD be stupid. ANYONE that has the vaguest notion of balance would agree to that. Just as a class that had infinite blocks, aoe damage and stuns would be stupid. No class has that, and no class is "always capable of chasing down another player and easily killing them while being completely invisible". There's middle ground to play in here, and its not THAT much more precarious than other classes. They just won't consider buffs that aren't single-target damage or stealth-based for some reason. I get it, you watch Extra Credits. Its a good show. I too see the similarities to some points they make. Trust me, we're nowhere near there. Daredevil is probably the cleanest thief skill tree. Its got a very versatile set of talents and utilities that make it a little more like other classes, mostly in that it gets A SINGLE block skill that combined with other thief abilities gives it a huge boost to survivability, diversity of play, and interaction. It IS more homogenous than other thief builds, but it still feels like a thief, still uses stealth, and still has high damage output. That's probably what needs to happen with more thief builds, and I think it shows that there's plenty of room to do it in. Admittedly, I feel thief rifle is so anemic right now that they might as well copy-paste the ranger or dragonhunter longbow (or even just the thief shortbow) skills onto the rifle, and tweak it until they get something sufficiently unique enough to be worth having a thief, but sufficiently standard to be balancable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 > @"Gatvin.6510" said: > > You're VASTLY overselling the state of thief. If such a class existed, it WOULD be stupid. ANYONE that has the vaguest notion of balance would agree to that. Just as a class that had infinite blocks, aoe damage and stuns would be stupid. No class has that, and no class is "always capable of chasing down another player and easily killing them while being completely invisible". There's middle ground to play in here, and its not THAT much more precarious than other classes. They just won't consider buffs that aren't single-target damage or stealth-based for some reason. I get it, you watch Extra Credits. Its a good show. I too see the similarities to some points they make. Trust me, we're nowhere near there. > > Daredevil is probably the cleanest thief skill tree. Its got a very versatile set of talents and utilities that make it a little more like other classes, mostly in that it gets A SINGLE block skill that combined with other thief abilities gives it a huge boost to survivability, diversity of play, and interaction. It IS more homogenous than other thief builds, but it still feels like a thief, still uses stealth, and still has high damage output. That's probably what needs to happen with more thief builds, and I think it shows that there's plenty of room to do it in. Admittedly, I feel thief rifle is so anemic right now that they might as well copy-paste the ranger or dragonhunter longbow (or even just the thief shortbow) skills onto the rifle, and tweak it until they get something sufficiently unique enough to be worth having a thief, but sufficiently standard to be balancable. O.K. we'll try this again. The reason why I don't care about whether thieves are currently too weak or what other classes currently have is because it is all irrelevant. Current balance is fickle and transient. Themes, mechanics, and design philosophy persist throughout the ages. The themes and mechanics of the thief when put together are inherently unfair, and unless Anet decides to do a massive tonal shift, then they will continue to remain inherently unfair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kash.9213 Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @"Gatvin.6510" said: > > > > You're VASTLY overselling the state of thief. If such a class existed, it WOULD be stupid. ANYONE that has the vaguest notion of balance would agree to that. Just as a class that had infinite blocks, aoe damage and stuns would be stupid. No class has that, and no class is "always capable of chasing down another player and easily killing them while being completely invisible". There's middle ground to play in here, and its not THAT much more precarious than other classes. They just won't consider buffs that aren't single-target damage or stealth-based for some reason. I get it, you watch Extra Credits. Its a good show. I too see the similarities to some points they make. Trust me, we're nowhere near there. > > > > Daredevil is probably the cleanest thief skill tree. Its got a very versatile set of talents and utilities that make it a little more like other classes, mostly in that it gets A SINGLE block skill that combined with other thief abilities gives it a huge boost to survivability, diversity of play, and interaction. It IS more homogenous than other thief builds, but it still feels like a thief, still uses stealth, and still has high damage output. That's probably what needs to happen with more thief builds, and I think it shows that there's plenty of room to do it in. Admittedly, I feel thief rifle is so anemic right now that they might as well copy-paste the ranger or dragonhunter longbow (or even just the thief shortbow) skills onto the rifle, and tweak it until they get something sufficiently unique enough to be worth having a thief, but sufficiently standard to be balancable. > > O.K. we'll try this again. The reason why I don't care about whether thieves are currently too weak or what other classes currently have is because it is all irrelevant. Current balance is fickle and transient. Themes, mechanics, and design philosophy persist throughout the ages. The themes and mechanics of the thief when put together are **inherently unfair**, and unless Anet decides to do a **massive tonal shift**, then they will continue to remain inherently unfair. The only thief mechanic that is unfair is Initiative but that's intentional as a signature feature. Explain in detail what about thief, feature for feature is so inherently unfair that is exclusive to thief as being able to have all of those in a build and be effective. And then, explain where you want to take the thief class in your massive tonal shift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 > @"kash.9213" said: > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > @"Gatvin.6510" said: > > > > > > You're VASTLY overselling the state of thief. If such a class existed, it WOULD be stupid. ANYONE that has the vaguest notion of balance would agree to that. Just as a class that had infinite blocks, aoe damage and stuns would be stupid. No class has that, and no class is "always capable of chasing down another player and easily killing them while being completely invisible". There's middle ground to play in here, and its not THAT much more precarious than other classes. They just won't consider buffs that aren't single-target damage or stealth-based for some reason. I get it, you watch Extra Credits. Its a good show. I too see the similarities to some points they make. Trust me, we're nowhere near there. > > > > > > Daredevil is probably the cleanest thief skill tree. Its got a very versatile set of talents and utilities that make it a little more like other classes, mostly in that it gets A SINGLE block skill that combined with other thief abilities gives it a huge boost to survivability, diversity of play, and interaction. It IS more homogenous than other thief builds, but it still feels like a thief, still uses stealth, and still has high damage output. That's probably what needs to happen with more thief builds, and I think it shows that there's plenty of room to do it in. Admittedly, I feel thief rifle is so anemic right now that they might as well copy-paste the ranger or dragonhunter longbow (or even just the thief shortbow) skills onto the rifle, and tweak it until they get something sufficiently unique enough to be worth having a thief, but sufficiently standard to be balancable. > > > > O.K. we'll try this again. The reason why I don't care about whether thieves are currently too weak or what other classes currently have is because it is all irrelevant. Current balance is fickle and transient. Themes, mechanics, and design philosophy persist throughout the ages. The themes and mechanics of the thief when put together are **inherently unfair**, and unless Anet decides to do a **massive tonal shift**, then they will continue to remain inherently unfair. > > The only thief mechanic that is unfair is Initiative but that's intentional as a signature feature. Explain in detail what about thief, feature for feature is so inherently unfair that is exclusive to thief as being able to have all of those in a build and be effective. And then, explain where you want to take the thief class in your massive tonal shift. I wouldn't bother with him. When you say that thief has many themes and mechanics that makes them unfair. The same logic can be applied in verbatim to other classes. When people look at thief, they call it unfair because it doesn't play in the same rules - without understanding what thief is, does, or trades off. They see the initiative system thieves have, and immediately think it's unfair because they can spam some of their strongest skills. But they also don't see the fact that other classes skills are more overloaded and synergized in comparison. * Unrelenting Assualt (rev Sword 3) - A skill with a 12 second cool down, evade frames, hits five times pretty hard, gives 8s of might for each hit, and places you next to your target when done. The only means of avoiding is two dodges, or a stealth. Or that thief needs to manage his skills well as his burst all-in-or-all-dead rotation usually aclimates to only 3 skills being used in quick succession before he's stuck. They will point out the stealth mechanic is unfair. But several other classes have access to it. To the level of thief? Not really, as they always point to permastealth builds. But never sit back and actually look at what's going on in those builds. They'd realize real quickly if it fails to oneshot, they are stuck in the mud. With Deadeye being the exclusion due to its elite. They call the access to it as cheap... but never really look at how thief accesses. A single Utility slot dedicated for stealthing. An AoE that won't allow you to leave till it's over, or you will be revealed and can not stealth. None of the thief's weapon skills provides immediate access to stealth like Torch 4 from Mesmer. They have conditions that needs to be met. Cloak and Dagger requires you to hit something. D/P requires nine out of twelve or fifteen initiative to get the first three seconds. And then an additional three for each stack. And if you know you're fighting a thief with cloaking, you should probably just suck it up and pack something to reveal em. Just saying, several kits have it. Cry me a river if it makes you change your builds, thieves have to change their stupid utilities for each fight already. The Mobility? Mobility doesn't kill. If you let the thief kite you, its your own stupidity that got you killed. Mad because you didn't kill the thief? You'd be mad if the thief killed you anyways. The thief's frustrated he didn't get the kill. Why not just be happy with the fact that you ran em off and move on? Oh wait, because the competitive mentality is all or nothing. You want to feel glorified with a button press, but feel like you got teased if you pressed two buttons and nothing happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 > @"kash.9213" said: > > The only thief mechanic that is unfair is Initiative but that's intentional as a signature feature. Explain in detail what about thief, feature for feature is so inherently unfair that is exclusive to thief as being able to have all of those in a build and be effective. And then, explain where you want to take the thief class in your massive tonal shift. I have explained it in this topic many times now. In the very first post I made in this thread, and then subsequently many more times in each subsequent post. Read ANY of them, and you'll know what the issue with thief is. I've already answered all of your questions here in this thread. If you wish to take issue with what I have said, then have the decency to read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > I wouldn't bother with him. When you say that thief has many themes and mechanics that makes them unfair. The same logic can be applied in verbatim to other classes. > > When people look at thief, they call it unfair because it doesn't play in the same rules - without understanding what thief is, does, or trades off. > They see the initiative system thieves have, and immediately think it's unfair because they can spam some of their strongest skills. But they also don't see the fact that other classes skills are more overloaded and synergized in comparison. > > * Unrelenting Assualt (rev Sword 3) - A skill with a 12 second cool down, evade frames, hits five times pretty hard, gives 8s of might for each hit, and places you next to your target when done. The only means of avoiding is two dodges, or a stealth. > > Or that thief needs to manage his skills well as his burst all-in-or-all-dead rotation usually aclimates to only 3 skills being used in quick succession before he's stuck. > > They will point out the stealth mechanic is unfair. But several other classes have access to it. To the level of thief? Not really, as they always point to permastealth builds. But never sit back and actually look at what's going on in those builds. They'd realize real quickly if it fails to oneshot, they are stuck in the mud. With Deadeye being the exclusion due to its elite. They call the access to it as cheap... but never really look at how thief accesses. > > A single Utility slot dedicated for stealthing. An AoE that won't allow you to leave till it's over, or you will be revealed and can not stealth. None of the thief's weapon skills provides immediate access to stealth like Torch 4 from Mesmer. They have conditions that needs to be met. Cloak and Dagger requires you to hit something. D/P requires nine out of twelve or fifteen initiative to get the first three seconds. And then an additional three for each stack. And if you know you're fighting a thief with cloaking, you should probably just suck it up and pack something to reveal em. Just saying, several kits have it. Cry me a river if it makes you change your builds, thieves have to change their stupid utilities for each fight already. > > The Mobility? Mobility doesn't kill. If you let the thief kite you, its your own stupidity that got you killed. Mad because you didn't kill the thief? You'd be mad if the thief killed you anyways. The thief's frustrated he didn't get the kill. Why not just be happy with the fact that you ran em off and move on? Oh wait, because the competitive mentality is all or nothing. You want to feel glorified with a button press, but feel like you got teased if you pressed two buttons and nothing happened. Not really. The only other class with abilities that are similarly unfun is the mesmer, which trades places with the thief regularly in roles. Also like thief, the mesmer is seeing its abilities nerfed into the ground, too. Likewise, it isn't one strength of the thief that is troublesome, but the combination of the three. If thieves were as immobile as the necromancer, then high stealth and high burst wouldn't be an issue. If thieves had no burst, then they could be as mobile and stealthy as they want. If thieves had no stealth, then they could be as mobile and bursty as they want. You can buff individual facets of other class to ridiculous levels to make things completely unfun. I.E. if you give necromancers 10x base health, then that itself will ruin PVP. However, having high health doesn't mean that durability is inherently an unfun mechanic. Stealth + Burst + Mobility removes the ability to fight back, which makes it unfun inherently. It breaks the cottage rule of multiplayer games: each player gets to play. So, the thief gets nerfed liberally to prevent this issue. BTW I agree that initiative is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kash.9213 Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @"kash.9213" said: > > > > The only thief mechanic that is unfair is Initiative but that's intentional as a signature feature. Explain in detail what about thief, feature for feature is so inherently unfair that is exclusive to thief as being able to have all of those in a build and be effective. And then, explain where you want to take the thief class in your massive tonal shift. > > I have explained it in this topic many times now. In the very first post I made in this thread, and then subsequently many more times in each subsequent post. Read ANY of them, and you'll know what the issue with thief is. I've already answered all of your questions here in this thread. If you wish to take issue with what I have said, then have the decency to read it. All of your posts in this thread are long winded versions of, you think thief is op coming out of stealth so nerf that and everything else because if it's a thief it's op also and thief gets to do it all at the same time. Then, even after recent changes you basically say you're fine with thief being weak because otherwise it would be strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 > @"kash.9213" said: > All of your posts in this thread are long winded versions of, you think thief is op coming out of stealth so nerf that and everything else because if it's a thief it's op also and thief gets to do it all at the same time. Then, even after recent changes you basically say you're fine with thief being weak because otherwise it would be strong. That isn't what I've said at all. I'll break it down slowly. 1: > you think thief is op coming out of stealth Actual [statement:](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/860604/#Comment_860604 "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/860604/#Comment_860604") > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > This is the ultimate issue with thief: It's not fun to be attacked by a thief... They've essentially made a profession who's theme is unfun for every other profession to play against. Having stealth, high burst damage, and high mobility puts thieves in a precarious position, where the game can easily be ruined by letting thieves become powerful. This is philosophy. It is not a statement about the current balance of thief. 2: >so nerf that and everything else Actual [statement one:](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/862131/#Comment_862131 "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/862131/#Comment_862131") > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > Look, it is possible for thieves to be underpowered, even if they have to be the weakest overall class in the game. Their feebleness is necessary to counter-balance the advantage of stealth, mobility, and burst. Thieves aren't supposed to be helpless even with them. Actual [statement two](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/861643/#Comment_861643 "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/861643/#Comment_861643") > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > So long as thieves are invisible, highly mobile, and have high burst, they will have to be the weakest class in the game overall.. Crawling over every other profession's individual strengths and weaknesses is a meaningless exercise, because it does not negate this dilemma in any way.. It doesn't matter_how_ they're stronger, only that they are. It's a dichotomy. If the thief loses one of these aspects, then it can get all sorts of buffs to compensate. Again, this is design philosophy, and not a statement about the current balance of thief. 3: >because if it's a thief it's op Actual [statement:](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/861480/#Comment_861480 "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/861480/#Comment_861480") > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > This issue isn't unique to thieves, either. Mesmers have been nerfed in similar ways throughout history, to deal with the exact same problem. 4: >thief gets to do it all at the same time I haven't made any direct statements on this, but truth be told they really could. There are a couple of niche abilities (such as boon stealing) that were locked into a particular slot, but otherwise... yeah they could use most of the thief's abilities. Stealth is available on all dagger off-hand sets, D/P with some specific actions, and Hide In Shadows was the penultimate healing skill for the thief. Teleports are available on P/D, D/P, S/X, and SB, and Heartseeker spam can be used to accelerate into a single direction. High damage burst skills were available on D/X and P/X skills. This mythical "do everything" build was just D/P + Shortbow with Trickery and Shadow Arts. There are variations on this build, but this is what allowed Thief to essentially be anywhere, uncatchable, and high damaging. I do not envy the balance team. They have to hit peak performance, but niche builds continually suffer for it. There's a lot of redundancy in thief utilities, so it is nigh impossible to sequester away different abilities. It isn't just that thief can access these skills, it is that (with rare exception) the thief _will_ access these skills. 5: > Then, even after recent changes Actual [statement](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/862405/#Comment_862405 "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/862405/#Comment_862405") > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > I do not care if you think thieves are currently too weak. That is an aside. > I do not care what other advantages another class may have. That is an aside. > I do not care if another class has one or more skills similar to the thief. That is an aside. > I do not care if thieves do not currently have an identity. That is an aside. > I do not care about the specifics of the current sPVP format. That is an aside. > I do not care about the specifics of the current WvW format. That is an aside. This is philosophy. It is not a statement about the current balance of thief. 6: >basically say you're fine with thief being weak Actual [statement:](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/863560/#Comment_863560 "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/863560/#Comment_863560") > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > I don't care about all of that. In an ideal world, all of the classes would be balanced, even with all their themes and gimmicks. But, for any practical sense, the devs use the nerf hammer liberally on thieves due to all the grief they can cause. This is philosophy. It is not a statement about the current balance of thief. 7: >because otherwise it would be strong Actual [statement:](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/860604/#Comment_860604 "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/860604/#Comment_860604") > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > This is why thieves always get nerfs for PVP and WvW. Having thief be too weak means that thief players will be angry. But, having thief be too strong means that all of the other professions will be angry, due to all of the traits that the thief has. The thief (and likewise mesmer) are in an unusual position, where the whole cyclic balance thing doesn't work for them. The tl;dr of all this is: you're projecting. You aren't reading what I am saying, you are imposing what you want me to have said. You want me to say "Wah wah teef too OP nerf nao plz" because it is much easier to dismiss than what I am actually saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > Likewise, it isn't one strength of the thief that is troublesome, but the combination of the three. If thieves were as immobile as the necromancer, then high stealth and high burst wouldn't be an issue. If thieves had no burst, then they could be as mobile and stealthy as they want. If thieves had no stealth, then they could be as mobile and bursty as they want. i am not sure from your posts how much you understand what each thief build does give up as they usually do only focus on 2 of these aspects, because if you try a build that does balance all 3, you wont be good enough in either. the problem with current thief is, due to direct and indirect nerfs you wont be good in more than 1 of these aspects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > Likewise, it isn't one strength of the thief that is troublesome, but the combination of the three. If thieves were as immobile as the necromancer, then high stealth and high burst wouldn't be an issue. If thieves had no burst, then they could be as mobile and stealthy as they want. If thieves had no stealth, then they could be as mobile and bursty as they want. > > i am not sure from your posts how much you understand what each thief build does give up as they usually do only focus on 2 of these aspects, because if you try a build that does balance all 3, you wont be good enough in either. the problem with current thief is, due to direct and indirect nerfs you wont be good in more than 1 of these aspects. > That's how it is _currently._ There were times where the thief could get all 3 easily while sacrificing very little. Because the burst is tied to the stealth skills, you can get both in the same package. From there, mobility is not hard to get. If Anet is careless with their balancing, we can end up in a place where the thief gets all 3 easily again. One such example of this is how Anet handled the Deadeye. Originally, all of the damage bonuses on deadeye came from a slowly growing buff, which was meant to telegraph the deadeye's presence before they could do a lot of damage. Death's judgement required kneel, had a longer windup, and an initiative cost. But, come malice rework, Deadeye's got a buffed DJ as a stealth attack (no initiative cost), a souped up Silent Scope that now makes stealth spamming criminally easy, and enough free initiative to spam three round burst to their heart's content. Deadeye transformed into a monster overnight, because they were given a lot of stealth, a lot of burst, and enough build freedom to to give themselves incredible mobility. Funny how that goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kash.9213 Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > Likewise, it isn't one strength of the thief that is troublesome, but the combination of the three. If thieves were as immobile as the necromancer, then high stealth and high burst wouldn't be an issue. If thieves had no burst, then they could be as mobile and stealthy as they want. If thieves had no stealth, then they could be as mobile and bursty as they want. > > > > i am not sure from your posts how much you understand what each thief build does give up as they usually do only focus on 2 of these aspects, because if you try a build that does balance all 3, you wont be good enough in either. the problem with current thief is, due to direct and indirect nerfs you wont be good in more than 1 of these aspects. > > > > That's how it is _currently._ There were times where the thief could get all 3 easily while sacrificing very little. Because the burst is tied to the stealth skills, you can get both in the same package. From there, mobility is not hard to get. If Anet is careless with their balancing, we can end up in a place where the thief gets all 3 easily again. > > One such example of this is how Anet handled the Deadeye. Originally, all of the damage bonuses on deadeye came from a slowly growing buff, which was meant to telegraph the deadeye's presence before they could do a lot of damage. Death's judgement required kneel, had a longer windup, and an initiative cost. But, come malice rework, Deadeye's got a buffed DJ as a stealth attack (no initiative cost), a souped up **Silent Scope that now makes stealth spamming criminally easy**, and **enough free initiative to spam three round burst to their heart's content.** > > Deadeye transformed into a monster overnight, because they were given a lot of stealth, a lot of burst, and enough build freedom to to give themselves incredible mobility. Funny how that goes. You're stretching that one second of Silent Scope stealth pretty far to make it 'criminally easy' to spam. Do yourself a favor and don't spam three round burst on your deadeye. There's nothing free about Initiative and if you're trying to max your initiative you've immediately reduced that build freedom you're talking about. Just in that post you've already relegated yourself to a couple of trait lines and traits within those lines and utilities to spam stealth and Initiative use and if you want mobility on top of that you've used up the rest of your utility slots if they're not full already or you're taking shortbow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 > @"kash.9213" said: > > You're stretching that one second of Silent Scope stealth pretty far to make it 'criminally easy' to spam. Do yourself a favor and don't spam three round burst on your deadeye. There's nothing free about Initiative and if you're trying to max your initiative you've immediately reduced that build freedom you're talking about. Just in that post you've already relegated yourself to a couple of trait lines and traits within those lines and utilities to spam stealth and Initiative use and if you want mobility on top of that you've used up the rest of your utility slots if they're not full already or you're taking shortbow. Your advice is useless, for I am discussing all those traits which have been nerfed into the ground recently. All nitpicking aside, the point is that Deadeye became overpowered because it had the dark triad (stealth, burst, mobility) in full force. Anet's response to gimp deadeye's stealth also reduced burst, which indirectly reduced mobility. This doesn't make the dark triad fair gameplay; it just makes the the triad unattainable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TorQ.7041 Posted March 29, 2019 Share Posted March 29, 2019 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @"kash.9213" said: > > > > You're stretching that one second of Silent Scope stealth pretty far to make it 'criminally easy' to spam. Do yourself a favor and don't spam three round burst on your deadeye. There's nothing free about Initiative and if you're trying to max your initiative you've immediately reduced that build freedom you're talking about. Just in that post you've already relegated yourself to a couple of trait lines and traits within those lines and utilities to spam stealth and Initiative use and if you want mobility on top of that you've used up the rest of your utility slots if they're not full already or you're taking shortbow. > > Your advice is useless, for I am discussing all those traits which have been nerfed into the ground recently. All nitpicking aside, the point is that Deadeye became overpowered because it had the dark triad (stealth, burst, mobility) in full force. Anet's response to kitten deadeye's stealth also reduced burst, which indirectly reduced mobility. This doesn't make the dark triad fair gameplay; it must makes the the triad unattainable. Really? Deadeye has mobility. That’s interesting. What rank are you? Just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exitus.3297 Posted March 29, 2019 Share Posted March 29, 2019 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @"kash.9213" said: > > All of your posts in this thread are long winded versions of, you think thief is op coming out of stealth so nerf that and everything else because if it's a thief it's op also and thief gets to do it all at the same time. Then, even after recent changes you basically say you're fine with thief being weak because otherwise it would be strong. > > That isn't what I've said at all. I'll break it down slowly. > > 1: > > you think thief is op coming out of stealth > > Actual [statement:](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/860604/#Comment_860604 "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/860604/#Comment_860604") > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > This is the ultimate issue with thief: It's not fun to be attacked by a thief... They've essentially made a profession who's theme is unfun for every other profession to play against. Having stealth, high burst damage, and high mobility puts thieves in a precarious position, where the game can easily be ruined by letting thieves become powerful. > > This is philosophy. It is not a statement about the current balance of thief. > > 2: > >so nerf that and everything else > > Actual [statement one:](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/862131/#Comment_862131 "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/862131/#Comment_862131") > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > Look, it is possible for thieves to be underpowered, even if they have to be the weakest overall class in the game. Their feebleness is necessary to counter-balance the advantage of stealth, mobility, and burst. Thieves aren't supposed to be helpless even with them. > > Actual [statement two](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/861643/#Comment_861643 "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/861643/#Comment_861643") > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > So long as thieves are invisible, highly mobile, and have high burst, they will have to be the weakest class in the game overall.. Crawling over every other profession's individual strengths and weaknesses is a meaningless exercise, because it does not negate this dilemma in any way.. It doesn't matter_how_ they're stronger, only that they are. > > It's a dichotomy. If the thief loses one of these aspects, then it can get all sorts of buffs to compensate. Again, this is design philosophy, and not a statement about the current balance of thief. > > 3: > >because if it's a thief it's op > > Actual [statement:](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/861480/#Comment_861480 "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/861480/#Comment_861480") > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > This issue isn't unique to thieves, either. Mesmers have been nerfed in similar ways throughout history, to deal with the exact same problem. > > 4: > >thief gets to do it all at the same time > > I haven't made any direct statements on this, but truth be told they really could. There are a couple of niche abilities (such as boon stealing) that were locked into a particular slot, but otherwise... yeah they could use most of the thief's abilities. Stealth is available on all dagger off-hand sets, D/P with some specific actions, and Hide In Shadows was the penultimate healing skill for the thief. Teleports are available on P/D, D/P, S/X, and SB, and Heartseeker spam can be used to accelerate into a single direction. High damage burst skills were available on D/X and P/X skills. This mythical "do everything" build was just D/P + Shortbow with Trickery and Shadow Arts. There are variations on this build, but this is what allowed Thief to essentially be anywhere, uncatchable, and high damaging. > > I do not envy the balance team. They have to hit peak performance, but niche builds continually suffer for it. There's a lot of redundancy in thief utilities, so it is nigh impossible to sequester away different abilities. It isn't just that thief can access these skills, it is that (with rare exception) the thief _will_ access these skills. > > > 5: > > Then, even after recent changes > > Actual [statement](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/862405/#Comment_862405 "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/862405/#Comment_862405") > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > I do not care if you think thieves are currently too weak. That is an aside. > > I do not care what other advantages another class may have. That is an aside. > > I do not care if another class has one or more skills similar to the thief. That is an aside. > > I do not care if thieves do not currently have an identity. That is an aside. > > I do not care about the specifics of the current sPVP format. That is an aside. > > I do not care about the specifics of the current WvW format. That is an aside. > > This is philosophy. It is not a statement about the current balance of thief. > > 6: > >basically say you're fine with thief being weak > > Actual [statement:](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/863560/#Comment_863560 "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/863560/#Comment_863560") > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > I don't care about all of that. In an ideal world, all of the classes would be balanced, even with all their themes and gimmicks. But, for any practical sense, the devs use the nerf hammer liberally on thieves due to all the grief they can cause. > > This is philosophy. It is not a statement about the current balance of thief. > > 7: > >because otherwise it would be strong > > Actual [statement:](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/860604/#Comment_860604 "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/860604/#Comment_860604") > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > This is why thieves always get nerfs for PVP and WvW. Having thief be too weak means that thief players will be angry. But, having thief be too strong means that all of the other professions will be angry, due to all of the traits that the thief has. > > The thief (and likewise mesmer) are in an unusual position, where the whole cyclic balance thing doesn't work for them. > > The tl;dr of all this is: you're projecting. You aren't reading what I am saying, you are imposing what you want me to have said. You want me to say "Wah wah teef too OP nerf nao plz" because it is much easier to dismiss than what I am actually saying. The way you type makes it sound as if you like to hear yourself talk (or type, in this instance). It comes off as pretentious when all you preach is "philosophy" when really all I'm seeing is you attempting to point out that fighting the thief isn't fun and that everything else can be ignored as it is 'irrelevant.' Why do you feel the need to put people down while you just keep repeating 'philosophy' over and over, when players obviously just want to have a conversation about balance? You're typing a whole lot yet not actually bringing anything meaningful to the conversation. I get that you are talking about design philosophy. You can repeat it over and over until you're blue in the face but no one is actually going to take it seriously until you actually make a concrete point. You already made it clear you don't think it is fun to fight the Thief class due to the theme in and of itself. I agree, but as someone else already pointed it, it really depends. Any aspect of any game when thrown into hypderdrive simply isn't fun. Getting one-shotted by anything out of the blue is in fact the antithesis of fun and it shouldn't exist, and the Thief can be notorious for it. It also isn't fun for any class to fight another class that has access to clones that by themselves can kill you while the real one sits in stealth with access to several invulnerabilities, yet the class exists as it does. Or how about a class that deals damage like a truck and can absorb ludicrous amounts of damage and recover from it easily? If the invisible assassin-esq can't actually kill anything and is actually a walking target beyond that, I question who is actually having less fun. Stealth based assassin-esq classes can be very balanced and fun to fight as and against and be a valuable addition to any game mode when done correctly because it forces players to actually think about what they are doing. It's a curveball that breaks the mold of mindlessly focusing on a rotation. ANet made it interesting because no stealth lasts forever (or at least it isn't supposed to) as well as having counterplay mechanics such as getting Revealed. I can tell you from playing other games that the way ANet implements stealth would actually be an amazing design philosophy if they moved away from the 100 to 0 bursts and focused more on spreading out the burst after opening from stealth. The sad irony is that they have actually been doing this to the Thief, but like people have been pointing out, Thieves appear to be getting more taken away from them than other classes and it ends up putting them in a spot where they are not fun to play and boring to fight, especially in a game mode where you don't actually need to land kills in order to win. There is a healthy place for Thieves to be and yet players think that ANet seems to be explicitly singling the Thief when it comes to burst damage but not toning down other classes to help them do anything outside of that burst. That is when they end up feeling check-mated because their burst is no longer as threatening but that is essentially all they had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted March 29, 2019 Share Posted March 29, 2019 > @"Exitus.3297" said: > The way you type makes it sound as if you like to hear yourself talk (or type, in this instance). It comes off as pretentious when all you preach is "philosophy" when really all I'm seeing is you attempting to point out that fighting the thief isn't fun and that everything else can be ignored as it is 'irrelevant.' Why do you feel the need to put people down while you just keep repeating 'philosophy' over and over, when players obviously just want to have a conversation about balance? You're typing a whole lot yet not actually bringing anything meaningful to the conversation. I get that you are talking about design philosophy. You can repeat it over and over until you're blue in the face but no one is actually going to take it seriously until you actually make a concrete point. If I didn't like to write, then I wouldn't be here. I'm going to break off on a small tangent here, but stay with me. In the world, there are three ways to regard numbers. You have Platonists, who believe numbers as actual things that exist. Numbers may not exist in a matter that is readily understood, but they do exist. Then you have the Nominalists. Nominalists do not believe that numbers exist... but they believe that the relationships between all the laws of physics do exist. Numbers are just a useful way of contextualizing all of the relationships in the universe. The third category is Fictionalists. The fictionalists believe that all of mathematics is arbitrary jargon. Completely made up. They also believe that the success of math to accomplish tasks is no indicator to any truth in the matter. The point of this little aside is that abstraction is not a ubiquitous skill. There are people who can't understand abstraction, people who have yet to understand it, and people who don't care to understand it.. The biggest problem I have with all this is that these people do not approach me from a position of curiosity, respect, calm temperament, or even to seek clarity. They come at me with hostility. They'll walk through life with all the foresight of arm's reach, and get angry at anything beyond their grasp. In this misunderstanding, they assault me with all matter of disrespect, demeaning me with with every word that falls from their fingers, because it is easier to see me as a cartoonish villain who is stealing all their grace and glory. To quote one of the developers from City of Heroes: "The question they're asking isn't 'why doesn't this make sense?' They're asking 'why doesn't this make sense **to me?**'" Did you notice that not one person has asked me if I think thief is currently overpowered or underpowered? **Not one.** No, that would be too inconvenient. Instead, they're telling me what I think, then arguing against that. They do not want to have conversation about balance. All of these exchanges go like this: OP: "Why does anet always nerf us?" Me:" It's because thieves are mechanically unfun when they're too strong" Some else: "mounts and power creep lol other classes lol omit what you say lol" It's like I'm teaching a math class, but every time I try to write "2 + 2 = 4" on the board, everyone starts screaming at me over how much they hate math class. I have people forcibly misconstrue what I say just to demonize me, demand proof just to inconvenience me then completely discard it when I bring it, insult my skill level and my integrity, talk around me as if I do not exist, say that I'm right then backpedal and continue on with the same old stuff. YOU YOURSELF HAVE DONE IT IN THIS VERY POST. Right here: Statement one: >You can repeat it over and over until you're blue in the face but no one is actually going to take it seriously until you actually make a concrete point. Statement two: > You already made it clear you don't think it is fun to fight the Thief class due to the theme in and of itself. I agree, but as someone else already pointed it, it really depends. Any aspect of any game when thrown into hypderdrive simply isn't fun. Getting one-shotted by anything out of the blue is in fact the antithesis of fun and it shouldn't exist, and the Thief can be notorious for it. I have no point but you agree with what I've said? How does that work exactly? There comes a point when ignorance is no longer excusable, and that point is when it becomes clear that a person is motivated to argue not by a sincere lack of understanding, but by anger and malice. Sometimes it is after a couple of posts, but sometimes it is immediate clear. There is no use being kind to somebody who will not respect kindness. I dismiss all of these non-arguments over and over again because it would be a greater disservice to honor them than it is to refuse them. > @"Exitus.3297" said: > You already made it clear you don't think it is fun to fight the Thief class due to the theme in and of itself. I agree, but as someone else already pointed it, it really depends. Any aspect of any game when thrown into hypderdrive simply isn't fun. Getting one-shotted by anything out of the blue is in fact the antithesis of fun and it shouldn't exist, and the Thief can be notorious for it. It also isn't fun for any class to fight another class that has access to clones that by themselves can kill you while the real one sits in stealth with access to several invulnerabilities, yet the class exists as it does. Or how about a class that deals damage like a truck and can absorb ludicrous amounts of damage and recover from it easily? If the invisible assassin-esq can't actually kill anything and is actually a walking target beyond that, I question who is actually having less fun. It really doesn't depend. The big thing that makes instant death from invisible targets so unfun is the lack of interactivity. One person gets to play (the killer) while the other person doesn't. It's like a game of basketball, except you're not allowed to move or touch the ball. Playing against a class with too many invulnerabilities is like playing a game of basketball, except the other guy is an athlete who's a foot taller than you. Yes, it isn't equal, but it can still be fun, because you're still getting to play the game. This is what makes CC, invulnerability, durability, and versatility in any degree much healthier for the game. You don't instantly lose to those. But stealth... that is the most binary mechanic in the game. Stealth gets nerfed over and over again across the professions, for there is no greater defense than to be invisible, and no position as advantageous as being able to stand wherever you want without fear of repercussion. Saying that thief can't do this _currently_ is not a disproof of this claim. It reaffirms this claim, by being thankful that we are not in such dreadful state. > @"Exitus.3297" said: > Stealth based assassin-esq classes can be very balanced and fun to fight as and against and be a valuable addition to any game mode when done correctly because it forces players to actually think about what they are doing. It's a curveball that breaks the mold of mindlessly focusing on a rotation. ANet made it interesting because no stealth lasts forever (or at least it isn't supposed to) as well as having counterplay mechanics such as getting Revealed. I can tell you from playing other games that the way ANet implements stealth would actually be an amazing design philosophy if they moved away from the 100 to 0 bursts and focused more on spreading out the burst after opening from stealth. The sad irony is that they have actually been doing this to the Thief, but like people have been pointing out, Thieves appear to be getting more taken away from them than other classes and it ends up putting them in a spot where they are not fun to play and boring to fight, especially in a game mode where you don't actually need to land kills in order to win. There is a healthy place for Thieves to be and yet players think that ANet seems to be explicitly singling the Thief when it comes to burst damage but not toning down other classes to help them do anything outside of that burst. That is when they end up feeling check-mated because their burst is no longer as threatening but that is essentially all they had. Personally I liked how City of Heroes did stealth. There were two different stats in play: perception, and invisibility. The perception stat changes what distance you can see enemies at, and the invisibility stat is a static subtraction from perception. If invisibility + distance > perception, then the player is invisible. But, if perception was larger, than you can see the enemy. Once seen, there was only a single skill that would re-engage invisibility. This made stealth mechanics non-binary. There were temp buffs, equipment slots, and skills you could use to increase perception, and you could increase stealth by layering more and more stealth skills (with greater movement and endurance penalties for each). This rarely showed its head in PVE, but in PVP the mechanic was fundamental. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted March 29, 2019 Share Posted March 29, 2019 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > Did you notice that not one person has asked me if I think thief is currently overpowered or underpowered? **Not one.** No, that would be too inconvenient. Instead, they're telling me what I think, then arguing against that. They do not want to have conversation about balance. why would one ask you for your opinion on thieves current state, when you dismiss others opinion on exactly that question as irrelevant? but your right on one thing; while you debate design philosphy, we mostly care for current state of thief. design philosophy is what OP directly asked for, yet he also choose this moment to ask for it with reference to current balance, the current balance is what gives to OP the impression of constantly getting nerfed. so how many more rounds of: current balance is irrelevant for the design philosophy vs. what matters for player experience is the current balance, not the philosophy it is based on ? i guess we can fill a couple more pages with this as they do not directly oppose each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted March 29, 2019 Share Posted March 29, 2019 Its It's strange with all these advantages thief has it's literally considered widely as a +1 class due to its poor capabilities to fight an opponent toe to toe without resorting to stealth one shot attempts through MBS etc, again resulting in salt. Maybe if all the non thief players refrained from complaining every time they got killed by a thief maybe they wouldn't have been repeatedly nerfed until either several resets or cheap one shot attempts would be needed to down an opponent. This also limits the viable builds/weapons thief can use to be effective. Having a class that's used solely for its mobility to decap and having to attack already engaged opponents to down them without being at a disadvantage is not balanced no matter the class mechanics nor is it fun for the player or the opponent. Mobility isn't the advantage for thief these days given the mobility of other classes now nor is stealth,even scrapper has easier access to long duration stealth on a low cooldown.thief has a few decent burst but its general dps needs increased to fall in line with today's version of the game or the dps/sustain needs to be shaved down on classes across the board which is unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted March 29, 2019 Share Posted March 29, 2019 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > Did you notice that not one person has asked me if I think thief is currently overpowered or underpowered? **Not one.** No, that would be too inconvenient. Instead, they're telling me what I think, then arguing against that. They do not want to have conversation about balance. > why would one ask you for your opinion on thieves current state, when you dismiss others opinion on exactly that question as irrelevant? > > but your right on one thing; while you debate design philosphy, we mostly care for current state of thief. design philosophy is what OP directly asked for, yet he also choose this moment to ask for it with reference to current balance, the current balance is what gives to OP the impression of constantly getting nerfed. > > so how many more rounds of: current balance is irrelevant for the design philosophy vs. what matters for player experience is the current balance, not the philosophy it is based on ? i guess we can fill a couple more pages with this as they do not directly oppose each other. They would do it to seek clarity. There's a timeline here. People come to me with their complains first. To quote Dennis Prager: "Clarity is more important than consensus." I have to hammer my point over and over again, because if I get lost in all the details then we'll walk away with 1000 posts yet nobody the wiser. People will sincerely walk away with the notion of "Three shot burst got nerfed, therefore your argument is invalid." Once it is understood, it is really easy to explain the difference between the design ideals and current balance. The ideals is why we're here, current balance is where we are. It's like, "I'm in Hawaii (current balance) because I'm on vacation (philosophy)." Personally I think that the marked sentries mechanic is draconian and stupid. It's like anet is saying "We know that stealth is broken, so we're just going to make it arbitrarily not work in large swaths of the map. Specifically enemy territory, which is where you'd most want to be invisible." I also don't see any value in making Unhindered Combatant stack more exhaustion based on the condition removed. There is no stunbreak, nor any condi cleanse, that punishes you more severely for using it well... except for Unhindered Combatant. For reasons unknown. I'm not a fan of the exhaustion mechanic in any sense, and I think that causing it to stack in duration is overly punishing. To be fair, it is tumultuous times at the company, and it isn't realistic to demand genius of someone. The recent balance changes are whack-a-mole. Creativity is a cruel and fickle mistress. When I said that I don't have any grand designs, I mean it. I've got no ideas. I can shout "be better everywhere" all day, but that isn't going to produce good changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 Posted March 29, 2019 Share Posted March 29, 2019 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > Did you notice that not one person has asked me if I think thief is currently overpowered or underpowered? **Not one.** No, that would be too inconvenient. Instead, they're telling me what I think, then arguing against that. They do not want to have conversation about balance. All of these exchanges go like this: And no body asked anyone else if they thought it was OPed. So you're being given as much respect to the discussion as everyone else. > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > Personally I liked how City of Heroes did stealth. There were two different stats in play: perception, and invisibility. The perception stat changes what distance you can see enemies at, and the invisibility stat is a static subtraction from perception. If invisibility + distance > perception, then the player is invisible. But, if perception was larger, than you can see the enemy. Once seen, there was only a single skill that would re-engage invisibility. This made stealth mechanics non-binary. There were temp buffs, equipment slots, and skills you could use to increase perception, and you could increase stealth by layering more and more stealth skills (with greater movement and endurance penalties for each). This rarely showed its head in PVE, but in PVP the mechanic was fundamental. The deal with City of Heroes is it's a completely different game, with completely different mechanics, and it's own set of rules for the super natural. The stealth mechanic works for that game, though I personally hated it, but it doesn't mean it will work for other games. Pointing to how another game handles a certain mechanic, is not the same as offering a solution to a vastly different game. League of Legends has stealth. And it's far more toxic than what is present in GW2. The Junglers who features insane damage, and mobility, on top of stealth have a circle which offers a tell that someone invisible is near them. Does it work? For that game sure. In GW2 it won't fix the problem. Dota 2 has stealth. A few characters like Rikimaru could only be detected by two items. Glitterdust when they are visible, and a stone you dropped when you get killed. Still won't fix anything. WoW has stealth. Everyone talks about how the rogue couldn't access stealth as frequently. But no body talks about how balance is a complete joke in that game. And guess what? People still complained about the rogue one shotting mages, and two shotting priests in pvp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exitus.3297 Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 I'm to completely ignore your tangent because it honestly doesn't matter. You keep trying to turn a class-balance discussion into a philosophical discussion when it isn't necessary. I'm going to address the things you said that actually matters. > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > OP: "Why does anet always nerf us?" > Me:" It's because thieves are mechanically unfun when they're too strong" > Some else: "mounts and power creep lol other classes lol omit what you say lol" The first line is mostly accurate, although it would be more accurate to say "Why does ANet always nerf us and provide nothing in return?" The second line is your opinion and I got that from the get-go. The third line is you putting words in players' mouths. I have no doubt in my mind that when Thieves are allowed to everything they actually want to do, it would be unfun to play against. So as you say in your second line, it needs to be nerfed. However, then there is the other side of the problem which is now they are also not fun to play as because so much of their kit has been taken away, gimmick builds aside. There is a reasonable middle-ground that is within reach and ANet seems to be on either side of it. > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > Statement one: > > >You can repeat it over and over until you're blue in the face but no one is actually going to take it seriously until you actually make a concrete point. > > Statement two: > > > You already made it clear you don't think it is fun to fight the Thief class due to the theme in and of itself. I agree, but as someone else already pointed it, it really depends. Any aspect of any game when thrown into hypderdrive simply isn't fun. Getting one-shotted by anything out of the blue is in fact the antithesis of fun and it shouldn't exist, and the Thief can be notorious for it. > > I have no point but you agree with what I've said? How does that work exactly? It doesn't seem to work to you because you selectively read what I wrote. I thought it was clearer in the following paragraph what I meant by that but it appears I wasn't clear enough. I also wrote "Concrete point" when I meant to say "constructive point" (it was late). I can agree with you on the general notion that the design philosophy of the Thief is unfun when it isn't implemented right. However, simply pointing this out to other players whom are dissatisfied with the current balance of the game from their class perspective and acting as if it is justified doesn't add anything constructive. Acting holier than thou and looking down your nose at them isn't going to get anywhere with anyone. > It really doesn't depend. **The big thing that makes instant death from invisible targets so unfun is the lack of interactivity. ** One person gets to play (the killer) while the other person doesn't. It's like a game of basketball, except you're not allowed to move or touch the ball. Playing against a class with too many invulnerabilities is like playing a game of basketball, except the other guy is an athlete who's a foot taller than you. Yes, it isn't equal, but it can still be fun, because you're still getting to play the game. This is what makes CC, invulnerability, durability, and versatility in any degree much healthier for the game. You don't instantly lose to those. But stealth... that is the most binary mechanic in the game. Stealth gets nerfed over and over again across the professions, for there is no greater defense than to be invisible, and no position as advantageous as being able to stand wherever you want without fear of repercussion. The first problem here is that no one is asking for Thieves (or anyone) to have instant death from invisibility. Everyone in this game can fill the role of the "the killer," it isn't exclusive to the Thief class just because they look like they are straight out of Assassin's Creed. Mesmers at the moment are more notorious than Thieves are at the moment when it comes to insta-gibbing from stealth (see the Chromomancer build that has recently been popularized), and they magicians _thematically_. Themes and class design influence balance but they don't determine it. The other problem is that I don't see many Thief players complaining about stealth getting nerfed. I see a couple, but not many. I see them complaining that stealth is getting nerfed and that they aren't getting anything in return to help them with lethality or survivability in return because prior to said nerfs, that is a mechanic they were reliant on. I don't doubt in my mind for a second that most Thieves would be okay with nerfs to stealth if on the conditions that they didn't remove it entirely and that they got something in return for it, whether it be damage, survivability, or a choice between the two. > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > Personally I liked how City of Heroes did stealth. There were two different stats in play: perception, and invisibility. The perception stat changes what distance you can see enemies at, and the invisibility stat is a static subtraction from perception. If invisibility + distance > perception, then the player is invisible. But, if perception was larger, than you can see the enemy. Once seen, there was only a single skill that would re-engage invisibility. This made stealth mechanics non-binary. There were temp buffs, equipment slots, and skills you could use to increase perception, and you could increase stealth by layering more and more stealth skills (with greater movement and endurance penalties for each). This rarely showed its head in PVE, but in PVP the mechanic was fundamental. You see, _this_ is what I'm looking for. This gives something concrete to actually work off of. I'm not familiar with City of Heroes but that is one way to do it. As you have said, Stealth in GW2 is binary so there really isn't a way to implement such a thing like Perception. However, one thing I have seen other games do is that instead of allowing a "one shot" from stealth is making stealth more about positioning and setup. For example, in WoW, Rogues can't really instagib things from stealth (World PvP Meme Garbage aside). Sure, they get a slight damage boost from stealth for a little bit, but it is more about setting up to gain more Combo Points because ultimately their damage comes from their Finishers. SWtOR did something where a Scoundrel/Operative gains a charge of "Upper Hand" or "Tactical Advantage" (depending on the faction), and that opening with an ability from Stealth would grant them such a charge. These charges could be used for a lot of things, but it is primarily used for some hard-hitting melee attacks. They aren't one-shots, but they do enough damage that they can go toe-to-toe with a Sith/Jedi and actually make a trade, but ONLY if they have that Upper Hand/Tactical Advantage. Without it, going toe-to-toe with a Force user is suicide (the general concept being that you don't get into a close-quarters fight with a Jedi/Sith unless you have the _Upper Hand_, no this is not a pun, this is actually the mechanic). One basic concept that I would like to see implemented in this game is getting a damage boost from stealth, but not all at once, so going into stealth for damage is still worth it. The idea being that it is only a death-sentence if you for some reason don't react to it, but you can still reasonably deal with it as long as you don't get outplayed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > And no body asked anyone else if they thought it was OPed. So you're being given as much respect to the discussion as everyone else. > > > The deal with City of Heroes is it's a completely different game, with completely different mechanics, and it's own set of rules for the super natural. The stealth mechanic works for that game, though I personally hated it, but it doesn't mean it will work for other games. > > Pointing to how another game handles a certain mechanic, is not the same as offering a solution to a vastly different game. > > League of Legends has stealth. And it's far more toxic than what is present in GW2. The Junglers who features insane damage, and mobility, on top of stealth have a circle which offers a tell that someone invisible is near them. Does it work? For that game sure. In GW2 it won't fix the problem. > > Dota 2 has stealth. A few characters like Rikimaru could only be detected by two items. Glitterdust when they are visible, and a stone you dropped when you get killed. Still won't fix anything. > > WoW has stealth. Everyone talks about how the rogue couldn't access stealth as frequently. But no body talks about how balance is a complete joke in that game. And guess what? People still complained about the rogue one shotting mages, and two shotting priests in pvp. > Lets be real here. This became my thread once I posted. I'm acting as an unpaid proxy for Anet, partly because the guy who knew the answer probably got fired, but also partly because the devs don't want to face the inquisition that I am currently staring down. Nobody is asking what anyone else thinks about thief balance, because everyone else is volunteering that information immediately when they respond. To me, specifically. This is done as a counterpoint to the assumption that I am saying thieves are currently overpowered. This is an understandable mistake if made once or twice, but several days and a half dozen people later it still happens. After elucidating over and over again all the little minutia, saying the same thing over and over again in countless different ways as to dispel any misunderstanding, it still happens. All of the talk about City of Heroes is just musing. I do not have a solution to solve all the balance problems that stealth can cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 Engi main here. I'm going to have to agree with @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" 's points. When thief is OP, it is just flat out oppressive and shuts a lot of classes out of the game. It is the highest mobility class in the game with the greatest access to stealth, and a good burst to boot. Well-played deadeyes are basically unkillable due to the sheer amount of stealth they can access. So it's only fair that in 1v1s, they generally are pretty low on the totem pole, because in +1 engagements they are incredibly powerful, and they are able to heckle the enemy team through clever decap/capping. In the time it takes for me to reach home from spawn on engineer, a thief can cross most of the map and decap points along the way. Know what I fear most when I'm playing prot holo? Getting +1'ed by a deadeye or thief that knows what they're doing. They're able to screw with me in +1's in ways most other classes can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 > @"Exitus.3297" said: > I'm to completely ignore your tangent because it honestly doesn't matter. You keep trying to turn a class-balance discussion into a philosophical discussion when it isn't necessary. I'm going to address the things you said that actually matters. If somebody asks what happened, you whip out a meter stick. If somebody asks why it happened, you whip out Plato. The question of the OP, the question that I answered, is "why does it happen." > @"Exitus.3297" said: > > The first line is mostly accurate, although it would be more accurate to say "Why does ANet always nerf us and provide nothing in return?" The second line is your opinion and I got that from the get-go. The third line is you putting words in players' mouths. > > I have no doubt in my mind that when Thieves are allowed to everything they actually want to do, it would be unfun to play against. So as you say in your second line, it needs to be nerfed. However, then there is the other side of the problem which is now they are also not fun to play as because so much of their kit has been taken away, gimmick builds aside. There is a reasonable middle-ground that is within reach and ANet seems to be on either side of it. > That was the first response I received, lols included. Also, this isn't my opinion. It's an assertion, deduced from the problems that the thief's themes and mechanical design produces. Anyway, in an ideal world, the classes would be balanced, even with all of their gimmicks and themes. > @"Exitus.3297" said: > > It doesn't seem to work to you because you selectively read what I wrote. I thought it was clearer in the following paragraph what I meant by that but it appears I wasn't clear enough. I also wrote "Concrete point" when I meant to say "constructive point" (it was late). I can agree with you on the general notion that the design philosophy of the Thief is unfun when it isn't implemented right. However, simply pointing this out to other players whom are dissatisfied with the current balance of the game from their class perspective and acting as if it is justified doesn't add anything constructive. Acting holier than thou and looking down your nose at them isn't going to get anywhere with anyone. "Concrete" and "constructive" make a really big difference here. What you said can make sense if you put "constructive" in there, but with "concrete" it doesn't. Either way, it does add something constructive: perspective. Class balance can't work as a 9-way sectarian conflict wherein everybody vies for attention and power for themselves. Likewise, simply demanding more burst or more stealth just recommits the same mistakes that gets us nerfed in the first place. We have to be aware of why thieves (and mesmers) are so hated in PVP/WvW in spite of not being the biggest contributors, and unfortunately this is not common knowledge. There's already been several suggestions on how to improve thief in this thread while acknowledging these problems. But if you're asking how to solve the un-fun nature of thief's themes... you really can't without changing the themes. > @"Exitus.3297" said: > > The first problem here is that no one is asking for Thieves (or anyone) to have instant death from invisibility. Everyone in this game can fill the role of the "the killer," it isn't exclusive to the Thief class just because they look like they are straight out of Assassin's Creed. Mesmers at the moment are more notorious than Thieves are at the moment when it comes to insta-gibbing from stealth (see the Chromomancer build that has recently been popularized), and they magicians _thematically_. Themes and class design influence balance but they don't determine it. > > The other problem is that I don't see many Thief players complaining about stealth getting nerfed. I see a couple, but not many. I see them complaining that stealth is getting nerfed and that they aren't getting anything in return to help them with lethality or survivability in return because prior to said nerfs, that is a mechanic they were reliant on. I don't doubt in my mind for a second that most Thieves would be okay with nerfs to stealth if on the conditions that they didn't remove it entirely and that they got something in return for it, whether it be damage, survivability, or a choice between the two. Then they're still complaining that stealth is getting nerfed. That's just adding an additional qualifier on top of it. Demanding immediate exchanges for nerfs, on the face of it, is contradictory. The goal of a nerf is to reduce a class's overall power, and if you give a class equal complementary buffs for every nerf they get, then they'll stay the same in overall power. There's a lot of minutia that can go into it, but generally this reason that we'll rarely see immediate compensation for nerfs. The threat of the dark triad (mobility, stealth, bursts) persists, even if nobody is directly asking for it. The dark triad just happens sometimes, largely by accident. To understand Anet's reticence in buffs, know that they don't break their game on purpose. At least I think they don't... There's ambiguity of terms here. I use "themes" and "mechanics" interchangeably to avoid boredom. To be specific, the mechanics of the thief are steal, initiative, dual skills, and stealth attacks, while the theme is rogue/assassin. However, half of the utility skills are mobility and invisibility, which is where the real trouble lies. There's no term for "set of utility skills the profession has", so I've been using the terms loosely and hoping people understand what I mean. > @"Exitus.3297" said: > > You see, _this_ is what I'm looking for. This gives something concrete to actually work off of. I'm not familiar with City of Heroes but that is one way to do it. As you have said, Stealth in GW2 is binary so there really isn't a way to implement such a thing like Perception. However, one thing I have seen other games do is that instead of allowing a "one shot" from stealth is making stealth more about positioning and setup. For example, in WoW, Rogues can't really instagib things from stealth (World PvP Meme Garbage aside). Sure, they get a slight damage boost from stealth for a little bit, but it is more about setting up to gain more Combo Points because ultimately their damage comes from their Finishers. SWtOR did something where a Scoundrel/Operative gains a charge of "Upper Hand" or "Tactical Advantage" (depending on the faction), and that opening with an ability from Stealth would grant them such a charge. These charges could be used for a lot of things, but it is primarily used for some hard-hitting melee attacks. They aren't one-shots, but they do enough damage that they can go toe-to-toe with a Sith/Jedi and actually make a trade, but ONLY if they have that Upper Hand/Tactical Advantage. Without it, going toe-to-toe with a Force user is suicide (the general concept being that you don't get into a close-quarters fight with a Jedi/Sith unless you have the _Upper Hand_, no this is not a pun, this is actually the mechanic). > > One basic concept that I would like to see implemented in this game is getting a damage boost from stealth, but not all at once, so going into stealth for damage is still worth it. The idea being that it is only a death-sentence if you for some reason don't react to it, but you can still reasonably deal with it as long as you don't get outplayed. If we try hard enough we could transform all of the DPS/CC stealth attacks into boons and buffs. To preserve PVE use we could make it a mini-Assassin's Signet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatvin.6510 Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 The main reason I disagree with the assertion that thief can't be balanced is that assertion seems to be based on the premise that stealth can't be balanced. If this logic could be applied as cleanly as is suggested, then Engi, Ranger, and ESPECIALLY Mesmer, would also be , in that order, approaching the power level thief is currently at. This certainly isn't the case, so I DO feel the op's post is fairly justified. The thief can be balanced while it has access to stealth. Its notable here, that there's playable balanced condition builds of thief that have just as much stealth access. They're not as powerful as a necro or mes, but they're playable. The OP wasn't specifically complaining about nerfs to stealth, they were complaining about nerfs in general. Its natural for the stealth nerf to pop up a lot here because that is the most recent one, but if you read the post, they don't even mention stealth. Part of the reason I'M frustrated is Rifle Thief is SO bad right now that the stealth nerf was mostly an inconvenience, but its the most recent in a very long chain that has done a lot to emphasize areas of weakness with the thief in general. Usually when a build gets core mechanics hit there's usually some recognition in the notes that the class will or is getting some buffs to other areas that were used as tradeoffs for that mechanic. This occasionally happens with the thief, but its usually a damage buff of some sort that later gets removed for valid reasons. They basically never buff defensive abilities other than stealth, which like the burst-damage skills, later get removed. The net result is that many thief builds are slowly suffocating under an accumulation of risky designs and overly safe corrections. > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > Engi main here. > > I'm going to have to agree with @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" 's points. When thief is OP, it is just flat out oppressive and shuts a lot of classes out of the game. It is the highest mobility class in the game with the greatest access to stealth, and a good burst to boot. Well-played deadeyes are basically unkillable due to the sheer amount of stealth they can access. > > So it's only fair that in 1v1s, they generally are pretty low on the totem pole, because in +1 engagements they are incredibly powerful, and they are able to heckle the enemy team through clever decap/capping. In the time it takes for me to reach home from spawn on engineer, a thief can cross most of the map and decap points along the way. > > Know what I fear most when I'm playing prot holo? Getting +1'ed by a deadeye or thief that knows what they're doing. They're able to screw with me in +1's in ways most other classes can't. My experience IS very different than yours. I main Elementalist, and I generally don't run anti-projectile skills outside a WvW zerg. I can safely say I've never been afraid of getting +1'd by a deadeye. If I'm already in one-shot range, I'll be more ready to hit defensive/healing cooldowns, but that's just a precaution against ANY +1. I usually kill the deadeye, then either kill, or go back to 1v1ing their buddy, and then be thankful their team didn't send a real build to back them up. Stealth doesn't help cap points, or block damage if my blind attacks hit. Same deal on my Dragon Hunter. Admittedly, my experience fighting holos is that they are very on/off in terms of its power(offensive or defensive), so its more vulnerable to well timed attacks, but any class could do that with the right stats, not just a deadeye. Its actually a very important part of how I kill holos at all. My experience playing Thief of most kinds, but ESPECIALLY rifle deadeye, is that if you attack at the wrong time, you do nothing and die. Its a far cry from Elementalist which usually involves maintaining a persistent area of damage and/or healing around yourself and MOSTLY avoiding the big attacks. This can MOSTLY be achieved by making sure everything but your emergency cooldowns are on cooldown, then switching elements, and then you'll MOSTLY be fine. There is no 'mostly' in thief. If one wishes to spend time playing a thief without gouging one's eyes out, you eventually learn not to attack unless you're going to actually do damage, and be as far away as possible as soon as someone notices you, because even the small attacks will kill you. Its at this point you realize that what you bring to your team is NOT high damage or mobility, but knowing what timing and positioning are. Then you realize that you can do the exact same thing, without stealth or extra mobility, on another class and ALSO be able to 1v1. Then you go back to whatever you played before. You might occasionally play deadeye still for the sake of judging how good you are at supporting your team, pressing weaknesses in your opponent's play, and seeing if the meta has shifted so you can actually play the build as much as you like the theme of the build. On the last point, you will be disappointed repeatedly. Don't play thief. That way lies only pain. I mean, play thief, you'll be better once you figure it out, but there will also be pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 > @"Gatvin.6510" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > Engi main here. > > > > I'm going to have to agree with @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" 's points. When thief is OP, it is just flat out oppressive and shuts a lot of classes out of the game. It is the highest mobility class in the game with the greatest access to stealth, and a good burst to boot. Well-played deadeyes are basically unkillable due to the sheer amount of stealth they can access. > > > > So it's only fair that in 1v1s, they generally are pretty low on the totem pole, because in +1 engagements they are incredibly powerful, and they are able to heckle the enemy team through clever decap/capping. In the time it takes for me to reach home from spawn on engineer, a thief can cross most of the map and decap points along the way. > > > > Know what I fear most when I'm playing prot holo? Getting +1'ed by a deadeye or thief that knows what they're doing. They're able to screw with me in +1's in ways most other classes can't. > > My experience IS very different than yours. I main Elementalist, and I generally don't run anti-projectile skills outside a WvW zerg. I can safely say I've never been afraid of getting +1'd by a deadeye. If I'm already in one-shot range, I'll be more ready to hit defensive/healing cooldowns, but that's just a precaution against ANY +1. I usually kill the deadeye, then either kill, or go back to 1v1ing their buddy, and then be thankful their team didn't send a real build to back them up. Stealth doesn't help cap points, or block damage if my blind attacks hit. Same deal on my Dragon Hunter. Admittedly, my experience fighting holos is that they are very on/off in terms of its power(offensive or defensive), so its more vulnerable to well timed attacks, but any class could do that with the right stats, not just a deadeye. Its actually a very important part of how I kill holos at all. > > My experience playing Thief of most kinds, but ESPECIALLY rifle deadeye, is that if you attack at the wrong time, you do nothing and die. Its a far cry from Elementalist which usually involves maintaining a persistent area of damage and/or healing around yourself and MOSTLY avoiding the big attacks. This can MOSTLY be achieved by making sure everything but your emergency cooldowns are on cooldown, then switching elements, and then you'll MOSTLY be fine. There is no 'mostly' in thief. If one wishes to spend time playing a thief without gouging one's eyes out, you eventually learn not to attack unless you're going to actually do damage, and be as far away as possible as soon as someone notices you, because even the small attacks will kill you. Its at this point you realize that what you bring to your team is NOT high damage or mobility, but knowing what timing and positioning are. Then you realize that you can do the exact same thing, without stealth or extra mobility, on another class and ALSO be able to 1v1. Then you go back to whatever you played before. You might occasionally play deadeye still for the sake of judging how good you are at supporting your team, pressing weaknesses in your opponent's play, and seeing if the meta has shifted so you can actually play the build as much as you like the theme of the build. On the last point, you will be disappointed repeatedly. Don't play thief. That way lies only pain. > > I mean, play thief, you'll be better once you figure it out, but there will also be pain. I've played thief, not deadeye specifically though. In +1's, they're pretty deadly, especially if they know the enemy's weak points. Elementalist is a slightly different beast to fight than engineer because elementalist is constantly rotating through skills -- if you aren't moving or doing something on an ele, you're generally getting dead. However, when I'm on a prot holo, I generally can't disengage my first target and swap to the deadeye or thief quite as easily. This gives them time to set up and wait for the right opportunity to strike, which is why I dread them -- because I have to save my cooldowns for the thief specifically, when I'm already having to use them for my 1v1. Other classes have to wade right in to start dealing damage, but thief can set up a lot of its damage beforehand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now