Cobrakon.3108 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 I think all thieves want to see 2 things more frequently: Big damage abilities and abilities that work well in combos. When I say work well in combos I don't mean buff your self combos I mean more of Hit+stun+position+Dodge ... stuff like that. Its true the stolen skills are beneficial, but it doesn't add much to the gameplay... its just another thing u have to manage to get the bonus... pressing skills for the sole reason to gain bonuses doesn't bring anything exciting to the table. Right now it feels more like you use those abilities to get closer to max damage in combat situation. It doesn't feel like any other use..... Granted thief stolen skills have always been like that. You know there is some theory crafting with how to maximize your marks, but its all pretty passive when you think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 > @babazhook.6805 said: > d> @kKagari.6804 said: > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > @kKagari.6804 said: > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > > @kKagari.6804 said: > > > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > > > > @Elxdark.9702 said: > > > > > > > > I don't really know what to say if people on this forum think 5 bleeds stack are good for a stolen skill. > > > > > > > > I'd love to hear your reasons why you guys think stolen skills are alright. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can trait to get a theoretical maximum of 100 bleed stacks off a stolen skill.> @kKagari.6804 said: > > > > > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > > > > > > @kKagari.6804 said: > > > > > > > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > > > > > > > The stolen skills are better then what is being presented. As example the Torment add on Steal Resistance is THREE stacks. The Bleed stacks from Steal health are in fact 5 stacks. (This in WvW and PVE at least as I do not PvP) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So lets look at steal health used with mercy and traited improv. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steal and mark get 2 steal healths. Use both thats 10 bleeds applied. Mercy and get two more steal healths. Use both and thats 20 total bleeds. If in a condition build any halfways decent duration traited and you are talking about 16 seconds bleeds. If in power wait a bit and get free duration via malice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are traited DA/TR/DE for BA this also means 4 poison and 10 confusion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The torment at three stacks can provide 12 stacks torment using this method. Keep in mind tht if traited up this becomes AOE torment. 12 stacks on up to 5 enemy meaning 60 stacks total available at theoretical maximum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is not the sum total however of what can be accomplished just using the Steal traits with those stolen items. You mentioned that damage component. Yes it is small but it not intended there for power builds. That damage compenent allows a proc trigger for a venom. So as example trait MERCY and Spider venom with DA/DE/TR taking Improv and BA. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Assume we steal health. Steal and stolen skills alone apply 8 poison , 10 confusion , 20 bleeds , 20 might , Weakness , Get around 5K in heals (mug and the health cmponent combined) gain 4 ini and steals 6 boons. From the stolen item alone comes the 20 bleeds, part of the spider venom poison and around 3k heal. Thats not insignificant. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, but you're up against a Necro who can just plague it back to you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > He can not plague back to 1500 range and he can not plague back if you are stealthed. That plague can be used against ANY condition build. That does not stop there being warrior, mesmer, Guardian, ranger and theif condition builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're talking about having to trait improvisation, using your mercy, marking twice, to make the steal health look somewhat passable. That's not saying much for the skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is your point? That is how the STEAL skill has always worked! It is not just about the stolen item. As example under the old skill the stolen skill off an Elemetalist was 10 seconds chill. Under the old steal the stolen skill off a thief was 3 seconds stealth and a blind. Are you suggesting the steal skill was not doing enough under the old system? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We traited in order to layer on more goodies to the steal. If you dod not trait to improve your steals then the skill did little good. Having an extra daze every 30 seconds or and extra stealth or blind every thirty seconds was hardly going to turn a match around. It was all of the extras you added in. > > > > > > > > > > > > My point is that it sucks? You're going out of your way to make a terrible skill work for you, while the rest of your build is going to be subpar. No to sound rude, but you yourself said you don't PvP, I don't think you can comment on 'what turns a match around'. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you blow your 2 Marks, and your mercy, on an opening gambit for those 5 conditions, all of which can easily be returned or converted by the current meta scourges, you're left with no malice to pump up your later damage. > > > > > > > > > > The rest of the build is NOT subpar. Every thief build from Daredevil D/p to p/d condition will leverage steal so as to improve outcomes. Is someone "going out of his way" to take SOH for that stun on steal or MUG or Endurance thief? Are they going out of their way to improve steal by taking Bewildering ambush or DA for Serpents touch? When people are taking these traits they are not looking at steal and saying "geez , Ice shard is a lousy stolne skill whats the point of traiting all of this other stuff" > > > > > > > > > > On the Metabattle site for thief in Conquest (PvP) mode IMProv is taken. How is that making ones build "substandard" just to improve ones steal? So somehow taking Improv for a daredevil d/p build is a good thing but taking it in a DE build is "Going out of ones way to improve a lousy skill' ? > > > > > > > > > > Mercy is only one utility. Taking it does not make a build subpar. I can do more damage with mercy and provide more utility then I can do with Bandits defense. > > > > > > > > > > As to your line about "blowing your two marks" I really do not know what you are talking about. You get one mark and not two. You can only reset that mark using Mercy or by killing the mark or by letting the mark expire. If you are taking Mercy to reset a mark you have made no comp[romises in your build by using it to stack conditions and or boons . > > > > > > > > > > There are thief builds other then Power d/p. It is not just "5 conditions". Steal resistance can apply 20 bleed stacks and heal for 5+k just by using mercy. We have entire threads started about how a class can pply 20 bleeds in seconds as being OP and when a thief skill can do the same thing if they trait for it it suddenly giving up the ability to do damage? > > > > > > > > > > On a condition P/d build which typically runs ~1800 condition damage in WvW you get about 140 per tick damage on a bleed. With easy might access Via those same Stolen skills your base condition damage jumps to around 2400 giving another 40 per tick on bleeds. Where on Earth are you sacrificing damage because you used mercy to reset malice? > > > > > > > > > > In a condition build you are not all that concerned about building up malice. You want to apply conditions and 20 bleeds is a lot of conditions. It what you will get from 7 deathblossoms costing 28 ini. > > > > > > > > > > If you are power with these new stolen skills , you will not do as well as a condition build from the Condition component but that is how it should be. You focus on your malice buildup and would use stolen skills for thing slike the Immob , poison ,slow and boons. Steal mobility, just as example can get you and up to 5 allies superspeed for 12 seconds with Improv traited without using mercy. Without using mercy you can get yourself and up to 5 allies 10 seconds of protection even as you apply 20 stacks of vuln on your enemy. (this IF you take peripheral..if you dont you still get these boons spplied to yourself) > > > > > > > > > > That is not junk nor does it suck and the only trait needed is improv. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When you use mercy, you get to use your mark again, therefore, you have 2 marks. You're welcome to try the build in SPvP, let me know how it goes. > > > > > > > > I can tell you how it will go. > > > > > > > > You're rolling the dice on landing a 7 step chain. Mark > SH > SH > Mercy > Mark > SH > SH. The cast times themselves combined takes three seconds, and thats not including aftercast. If any of the marks are dodged, you do not get the stolen item. If you are line of sighted, you do not get the stolen item. That's your DPS, gone. The problem with bleed is that it needs to be applied constantly for pressure, you don't 'burst' with bleed. You can do that with burns, before Legendary Lore was nerfed, because 16 or so stacks of burning actually required a quick response time. And again, you're talking about a necromancer here, likely a scourge, who will see a bunch of conditions and press F2, to convert it into boons. > > > > > > > > I mean, sure. if you caught someone without cleanses, fine, you'd probably kill them. That doesn't mean these skills are good by any means. > > > > > > > > And of course, mercy is not a subpar skill, its by far the best cantrip utility available, but to use it to recharge SH, is a waste. > > > > > > > > Improvisation is a powerful trait, but why on earth would you take it for deadeye stolen skills? You'd take it for the thief and daredevil's because they are actually good, and if you were running a condition build, you'd drop potent poison for it? No way. > > > > > > I play the builds I talk about, unlike you and have used them in all ieterations including "potent poison". P/d does not have a poison source unless one is spamming their number 2. Potent poison is not as effective as saving that INI for number three and or stealths via CND. Using number two costs INI. Using Improv back to back does not cost INI. > > > > > > Added to that number 2 on p/d is a porjectile which can be reflected or blocked with projectile hate such as the new warrior elite. That will not block the condition steal apps off steal. > > > > > > You do not NEED to tell me "how it will go" because I play the buidls I talk about and know how they go. > > > > Then I call 'dolyak' that this build is anywhere successful at platinum at all. You've made a condiburst build that only works, if the enemy is a necromancer. And not a very good condiburst either. > > > > You lose half your burst if your mark gets dodged. Half your burst relies on a 30s cd utility. Once cleansed you're left with what, pistol autos? Stealth pistol attacks will require you to be at 900 range anyways, which is in range for most of the transfers. CnD is a terrible method of stealth to rely on if you don't have steal. > > > > You've dedicated TWO GM traits for the purpose of front loading your mark, and you have little else in the way of cover conditions to ensure these conditions stay. > > > > At say, 1500 condition damage your bleeds do 112 damage per second. At 20 stacks, even for the benefit of the doubt that it gets successfully applied, all at once, is only 2240 damage per second. Scourges running carrion these days will have 28k+ HP. Have a think about that. Nefarious Favor also says hi. > > You can belive what ever you like. It does not change my experience. I do not get my gameplay advice from metabattle. I take the builds in game and TRY them. I have played all the iterations you have listed and know how they work relative to one another. Your approval is not required. > @Elxdark.9702 said: > I'm talking about PvP and the higher tier of it. > You can literally use whatever you want in WvW and it will be fine because WvW is terrible unbalanced and most of the people are worse than the golems in the mist. > Babazhok friend, I'm pretty sure you can try whatever build you want in WvW and you will be do alright. > In PvP is a bit different, yes in unranked and to some point in ranked you can play and try whatever you like and perform well if you're good enough but against good players, ATs and tournaments (UGO) they're useless and way worse than steal skills. > > If you feel they are fine, it's alright it's your opinion after all but I'm aiming higher, I'm actually trying to make stolen skills compete against steal stolen skills because right now the new stolen skills are way way worse than steal skills. Oh please enough of this unblanced stuff. All I see on the PvP thread is people quitting because of balance issues. PvP hardly an example of balance. It a mish mash of ideas and restrictions trying to lock a crowd in to doing the same thing over and over again akin to dungeun speed runs because the format not friendly to long matches . If matches are not over in a timely manner people quit mid match leaving the team hanging and THAT is the reason there so many restrictions on amulets used. It is a format predicated on flipping and holding points, this favoring builds that would not do so well in a more open environment. As to the quality of players in WvW I see plenty that come from PvP and I do not notice a marked skill improvement. There are very many excellent players in WvW just as there poor ones. Reading some of the Toxic chats players have posted from the PvP realm wherein a teamate rips fellow players or people quit a match because the others are not "good enough" does not speak to a better quality of player. It speaks to a bunch of people unwilling to let newcomers to the format to learn the nuances of the same. I will make a comparion of each stolen skill o show where you are incorrect in your assesment of the same from both a power and condition perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 The OP listed the steal skills but the details of each skill do not match in game experience of the same in PvE or WvW. I have not tested PvP but see no indication the values different there. As such I will go with what I have observed rather then what the WIKI states. If people that PvP can in fat confirm these numbers different in PvP then it an entirely different debate. Old steal ports TO an enemy. This can be both good and bad. Many times it can not be used because porting to an enemy can land you amongst a group or in AOE circles. At the same time it excellent for chase down and taking persons by surprise with high initial damage. New steal has 1500 range which in this meta is a significant advantage in many instances. As example I can load a scourge or Guardian with conditions at 1500 range without having to close to melee and face those sand shades or those DH traps. It really too situational to give either the no port, or the port an advantage here. Certain buidls WILl want the port. Certain builds will not. The might stacks for steal warmth is 5 and not 1. The Bleed stacks steal health is 5 not one. The torment stacks steal resistance is 3 not one. The Vuln stacks steal Durability is 10 and not one Steal defenses The poison stacks are 2 not one. Further to that one can not ignore the fact that by traiting the DE spec in the right manner one can share these boons with up to 5 allies and apply the conditions to up to 5 enemies. This increases their relative merit when compared to the old steals exponentially. In theory steal health as exmaple can apply 100 stacks of bleed sum totalusing steal health. In thoery you can give yourself and 4 firends 24 seconds resistance via steal resistance. This would be very hard to pull off in game which is why I suggest just increasing the radius of peripheral vision to 400 would go a longw ayto pushing all the new stolen skills over the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 > @kKagari.6804 said: > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > d> @kKagari.6804 said: > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > @kKagari.6804 said: > > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > > > @kKagari.6804 said: > > > > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > > > > > @Elxdark.9702 said: > > > > > > > > > I don't really know what to say if people on this forum think 5 bleeds stack are good for a stolen skill. > > > > > > > > > I'd love to hear your reasons why you guys think stolen skills are alright. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can trait to get a theoretical maximum of 100 bleed stacks off a stolen skill.> @kKagari.6804 said: > > > > > > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > > > > > > > @kKagari.6804 said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > > > > > > > > The stolen skills are better then what is being presented. As example the Torment add on Steal Resistance is THREE stacks. The Bleed stacks from Steal health are in fact 5 stacks. (This in WvW and PVE at least as I do not PvP) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So lets look at steal health used with mercy and traited improv. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steal and mark get 2 steal healths. Use both thats 10 bleeds applied. Mercy and get two more steal healths. Use both and thats 20 total bleeds. If in a condition build any halfways decent duration traited and you are talking about 16 seconds bleeds. If in power wait a bit and get free duration via malice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are traited DA/TR/DE for BA this also means 4 poison and 10 confusion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The torment at three stacks can provide 12 stacks torment using this method. Keep in mind tht if traited up this becomes AOE torment. 12 stacks on up to 5 enemy meaning 60 stacks total available at theoretical maximum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is not the sum total however of what can be accomplished just using the Steal traits with those stolen items. You mentioned that damage component. Yes it is small but it not intended there for power builds. That damage compenent allows a proc trigger for a venom. So as example trait MERCY and Spider venom with DA/DE/TR taking Improv and BA. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Assume we steal health. Steal and stolen skills alone apply 8 poison , 10 confusion , 20 bleeds , 20 might , Weakness , Get around 5K in heals (mug and the health cmponent combined) gain 4 ini and steals 6 boons. From the stolen item alone comes the 20 bleeds, part of the spider venom poison and around 3k heal. Thats not insignificant. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, but you're up against a Necro who can just plague it back to you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > He can not plague back to 1500 range and he can not plague back if you are stealthed. That plague can be used against ANY condition build. That does not stop there being warrior, mesmer, Guardian, ranger and theif condition builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're talking about having to trait improvisation, using your mercy, marking twice, to make the steal health look somewhat passable. That's not saying much for the skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is your point? That is how the STEAL skill has always worked! It is not just about the stolen item. As example under the old skill the stolen skill off an Elemetalist was 10 seconds chill. Under the old steal the stolen skill off a thief was 3 seconds stealth and a blind. Are you suggesting the steal skill was not doing enough under the old system? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We traited in order to layer on more goodies to the steal. If you dod not trait to improve your steals then the skill did little good. Having an extra daze every 30 seconds or and extra stealth or blind every thirty seconds was hardly going to turn a match around. It was all of the extras you added in. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My point is that it sucks? You're going out of your way to make a terrible skill work for you, while the rest of your build is going to be subpar. No to sound rude, but you yourself said you don't PvP, I don't think you can comment on 'what turns a match around'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you blow your 2 Marks, and your mercy, on an opening gambit for those 5 conditions, all of which can easily be returned or converted by the current meta scourges, you're left with no malice to pump up your later damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > The rest of the build is NOT subpar. Every thief build from Daredevil D/p to p/d condition will leverage steal so as to improve outcomes. Is someone "going out of his way" to take SOH for that stun on steal or MUG or Endurance thief? Are they going out of their way to improve steal by taking Bewildering ambush or DA for Serpents touch? When people are taking these traits they are not looking at steal and saying "geez , Ice shard is a lousy stolne skill whats the point of traiting all of this other stuff" > > > > > > > > > > > > On the Metabattle site for thief in Conquest (PvP) mode IMProv is taken. How is that making ones build "substandard" just to improve ones steal? So somehow taking Improv for a daredevil d/p build is a good thing but taking it in a DE build is "Going out of ones way to improve a lousy skill' ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Mercy is only one utility. Taking it does not make a build subpar. I can do more damage with mercy and provide more utility then I can do with Bandits defense. > > > > > > > > > > > > As to your line about "blowing your two marks" I really do not know what you are talking about. You get one mark and not two. You can only reset that mark using Mercy or by killing the mark or by letting the mark expire. If you are taking Mercy to reset a mark you have made no comp[romises in your build by using it to stack conditions and or boons . > > > > > > > > > > > > There are thief builds other then Power d/p. It is not just "5 conditions". Steal resistance can apply 20 bleed stacks and heal for 5+k just by using mercy. We have entire threads started about how a class can pply 20 bleeds in seconds as being OP and when a thief skill can do the same thing if they trait for it it suddenly giving up the ability to do damage? > > > > > > > > > > > > On a condition P/d build which typically runs ~1800 condition damage in WvW you get about 140 per tick damage on a bleed. With easy might access Via those same Stolen skills your base condition damage jumps to around 2400 giving another 40 per tick on bleeds. Where on Earth are you sacrificing damage because you used mercy to reset malice? > > > > > > > > > > > > In a condition build you are not all that concerned about building up malice. You want to apply conditions and 20 bleeds is a lot of conditions. It what you will get from 7 deathblossoms costing 28 ini. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are power with these new stolen skills , you will not do as well as a condition build from the Condition component but that is how it should be. You focus on your malice buildup and would use stolen skills for thing slike the Immob , poison ,slow and boons. Steal mobility, just as example can get you and up to 5 allies superspeed for 12 seconds with Improv traited without using mercy. Without using mercy you can get yourself and up to 5 allies 10 seconds of protection even as you apply 20 stacks of vuln on your enemy. (this IF you take peripheral..if you dont you still get these boons spplied to yourself) > > > > > > > > > > > > That is not junk nor does it suck and the only trait needed is improv. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When you use mercy, you get to use your mark again, therefore, you have 2 marks. You're welcome to try the build in SPvP, let me know how it goes. > > > > > > > > > > I can tell you how it will go. > > > > > > > > > > You're rolling the dice on landing a 7 step chain. Mark > SH > SH > Mercy > Mark > SH > SH. The cast times themselves combined takes three seconds, and thats not including aftercast. If any of the marks are dodged, you do not get the stolen item. If you are line of sighted, you do not get the stolen item. That's your DPS, gone. The problem with bleed is that it needs to be applied constantly for pressure, you don't 'burst' with bleed. You can do that with burns, before Legendary Lore was nerfed, because 16 or so stacks of burning actually required a quick response time. And again, you're talking about a necromancer here, likely a scourge, who will see a bunch of conditions and press F2, to convert it into boons. > > > > > > > > > > I mean, sure. if you caught someone without cleanses, fine, you'd probably kill them. That doesn't mean these skills are good by any means. > > > > > > > > > > And of course, mercy is not a subpar skill, its by far the best cantrip utility available, but to use it to recharge SH, is a waste. > > > > > > > > > > Improvisation is a powerful trait, but why on earth would you take it for deadeye stolen skills? You'd take it for the thief and daredevil's because they are actually good, and if you were running a condition build, you'd drop potent poison for it? No way. > > > > > > > > I play the builds I talk about, unlike you and have used them in all ieterations including "potent poison". P/d does not have a poison source unless one is spamming their number 2. Potent poison is not as effective as saving that INI for number three and or stealths via CND. Using number two costs INI. Using Improv back to back does not cost INI. > > > > > > > > Added to that number 2 on p/d is a porjectile which can be reflected or blocked with projectile hate such as the new warrior elite. That will not block the condition steal apps off steal. > > > > > > > > You do not NEED to tell me "how it will go" because I play the buidls I talk about and know how they go. > > > > > > Then I call 'dolyak' that this build is anywhere successful at platinum at all. You've made a condiburst build that only works, if the enemy is a necromancer. And not a very good condiburst either. > > > > > > You lose half your burst if your mark gets dodged. Half your burst relies on a 30s cd utility. Once cleansed you're left with what, pistol autos? Stealth pistol attacks will require you to be at 900 range anyways, which is in range for most of the transfers. CnD is a terrible method of stealth to rely on if you don't have steal. > > > > > > You've dedicated TWO GM traits for the purpose of front loading your mark, and you have little else in the way of cover conditions to ensure these conditions stay. > > > > > > At say, 1500 condition damage your bleeds do 112 damage per second. At 20 stacks, even for the benefit of the doubt that it gets successfully applied, all at once, is only 2240 damage per second. Scourges running carrion these days will have 28k+ HP. Have a think about that. Nefarious Favor also says hi. > > > > You can belive what ever you like. It does not change my experience. I do not get my gameplay advice from metabattle. I take the builds in game and TRY them. I have played all the iterations you have listed and know how they work relative to one another. Your approval is not required. > > > > It is not IMPROV that needs to trait other utilities and skills to work. It is POTENT poison. If you have no sources of poison in your build you have to trait other things to get that poison. Improv does nto need mercy. It does not need a given weapon set. It does not need panic strike. ALL builds the thief has have steal and do not have to trait extra to get steal meaning improv gets its second use on every single thief build, Unlike potent poison. > > I'm not looking to approve anything, but the evidence is all there, its nothing to do with metabattle. Improvisation is a good trait, but not the way you use it and definitely doesn't make your argument of steal health any stronger. And what if this build was up against a guardian? You do all those hijinks to get what, 10 stacks of poison? With weakness and confusion that can be removed simply by one virtue of resolve? Thats beyond terrible. > > It may work for you, but you'd have to be up against some really inexperienced players. And what is your suggestion? Take potent posin? Claim that "a condition burst can be dodged". ? You claim to know everything about condition builds and the DE spec yet suggested we get TWO marks, which we do not. Mercy does not give you a second mark. It only allows you to change to another mark before expiriy. If I kill a person My mark resets. that does not mean that I have two marks. if a mark expires, my mark resets that does not mean I have two marks. You mentioned Condi burst and the ability to dodge the same in reference to my build. Say what? You do not even know what my build is. ANY condition build can have its steal dodged or blocked. The difference if with Improv and the new steals I have two such burts. So what you dodge one , I have another coming your way and then a third. Why do YOU think it easier to dodge someone using Improv over someone using Potent poison.? You then claimed in order to take Improv i was giving up all of my other damging skills and traits so as to predicate all my burst on improv. How on earth do you arrive at this conclusion? The build in every other respect is the same as virtually every other P/d build out there save for the fact one traitline dropped to take DE. I have tested DE against Daredevil in ap/d build. DE does the job better. All Daredevil does is add one torment and one bleed on a dodge and p/d builds do not rely on dodge as other builds do. They stealth. They do not want to dodge when stealthed because impaling would reveal them. Will Acro provide more condition damage to P/d condition? Will this be done through the CS line? Acro. Daredevil and CS are all subpar for a condition p/d build. That leaves SA, TR DA and DE. With the OLD steals One would never rely on the stolen items for condtion damage. With the NEW steals there significant damage available and especiallyw hen using improv. You then claimed I was using Two GM traits to use my build. Again say what? There only one GM trait taken and that Improv. I am taking that ANYWAYS in a P/d build because I am not getting a lot of poison in. I can still take spider venom if I wish. Taking improv does not preclude the use of spider venom and where potent poison increases the effectiveness of spider venom by two stacks, it does not provide that second source of 5 bleeds, or three torments or 10 seconds protection or 6 seconds resistance. I really do not think you have thought this trough in the least. Take the steal one traited potent poison , one traited improv. Improv Steal against necro 5 more bleed. 1300 health. Potent poison against Necro 1 more poison. Improv steal against Revenant 3 extra torment 6secs extra resistance. Potent poison steal against revenant 1 extra poison. Improv steal against Warrior. 8 more second weakness added 5 might gained. Potent Posion steal against warrior. 1 more poison. Improv steal against Engineer . 10 extra vuln 10 more seconds Protection Potent poison steal against revenant 1 extra poison. And so on. If you are in p/d Improv is simply a better skill all round for the DE spec and I am not even using Mercy in my example That not the sum total either as on every one of those steals I have the change of resetting a venom, my mercy, my heal, my elite. It is not required that reset happen but when it does the build benefits tremendously. Now speaking to mercy. It dos NOT give 2 marks. It allows you to reset one when you find it beneficial. If you are paying attention in a given battle that mark will expire at 25 seconds. That mark could also flee out of your range. There might crop up better targets of opportunity wherein it advantageous to reset the mark early. That mark might be oblivious to your presence allowing you to use 4 stolen items in a row on him. EVERY game situation is different. Apparently from what I read in your posts this not the case in PvP where you describe following rote rotations. I adapt and use the mercy reset when it to my advantage to do so. I do not follow "rotations". if I have stolen off a thief and of a sudden a Necro shows, I am going to use my stolen Thief item as quickly as possible , reset the mark with mercy and steal health from the necro. It just a better steal. If I see an enemy all clustered around one area and I am at range, I am going to burn all my stolen "steal healths" or "steal resistance" or "stel durability" in a row because I am going to apply those bleeds, those torments or that vulnerability to multiple targets. As to the time it takes to cast, like any skill this easily worked around. It not like there no other 3/4 second activation skills out there. The Combo of 1500 range with stealth access emans you can get the vast majority of these off. As well you do NOT have to use your stolen skill against the mark, If he aware you there and ready to dodge switch targets. This does not require resetting a mark. If there 5 people grouped together and they see you raise your hand to execute your steal, it pretty hard for them to tell which of them you singled out and all 5 are not going to dodge. This is not 1v1 dueling. Finally, when someone has to resort to "oh you must face all bad opponents" to try and make his point , he does so because he is unable to dispute the points being made. It a cop out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kKagari.6804 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 > @babazhook.6805 said: > > @kKagari.6804 said: > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > d> @kKagari.6804 said: > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > > @kKagari.6804 said: > > > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > > > > @kKagari.6804 said: > > > > > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > > > > > > @Elxdark.9702 said: > > > > > > > > > > I don't really know what to say if people on this forum think 5 bleeds stack are good for a stolen skill. > > > > > > > > > > I'd love to hear your reasons why you guys think stolen skills are alright. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can trait to get a theoretical maximum of 100 bleed stacks off a stolen skill.> @kKagari.6804 said: > > > > > > > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @kKagari.6804 said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > The stolen skills are better then what is being presented. As example the Torment add on Steal Resistance is THREE stacks. The Bleed stacks from Steal health are in fact 5 stacks. (This in WvW and PVE at least as I do not PvP) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So lets look at steal health used with mercy and traited improv. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steal and mark get 2 steal healths. Use both thats 10 bleeds applied. Mercy and get two more steal healths. Use both and thats 20 total bleeds. If in a condition build any halfways decent duration traited and you are talking about 16 seconds bleeds. If in power wait a bit and get free duration via malice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are traited DA/TR/DE for BA this also means 4 poison and 10 confusion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The torment at three stacks can provide 12 stacks torment using this method. Keep in mind tht if traited up this becomes AOE torment. 12 stacks on up to 5 enemy meaning 60 stacks total available at theoretical maximum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is not the sum total however of what can be accomplished just using the Steal traits with those stolen items. You mentioned that damage component. Yes it is small but it not intended there for power builds. That damage compenent allows a proc trigger for a venom. So as example trait MERCY and Spider venom with DA/DE/TR taking Improv and BA. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Assume we steal health. Steal and stolen skills alone apply 8 poison , 10 confusion , 20 bleeds , 20 might , Weakness , Get around 5K in heals (mug and the health cmponent combined) gain 4 ini and steals 6 boons. From the stolen item alone comes the 20 bleeds, part of the spider venom poison and around 3k heal. Thats not insignificant. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, but you're up against a Necro who can just plague it back to you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > He can not plague back to 1500 range and he can not plague back if you are stealthed. That plague can be used against ANY condition build. That does not stop there being warrior, mesmer, Guardian, ranger and theif condition builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're talking about having to trait improvisation, using your mercy, marking twice, to make the steal health look somewhat passable. That's not saying much for the skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is your point? That is how the STEAL skill has always worked! It is not just about the stolen item. As example under the old skill the stolen skill off an Elemetalist was 10 seconds chill. Under the old steal the stolen skill off a thief was 3 seconds stealth and a blind. Are you suggesting the steal skill was not doing enough under the old system? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We traited in order to layer on more goodies to the steal. If you dod not trait to improve your steals then the skill did little good. Having an extra daze every 30 seconds or and extra stealth or blind every thirty seconds was hardly going to turn a match around. It was all of the extras you added in. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My point is that it sucks? You're going out of your way to make a terrible skill work for you, while the rest of your build is going to be subpar. No to sound rude, but you yourself said you don't PvP, I don't think you can comment on 'what turns a match around'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you blow your 2 Marks, and your mercy, on an opening gambit for those 5 conditions, all of which can easily be returned or converted by the current meta scourges, you're left with no malice to pump up your later damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rest of the build is NOT subpar. Every thief build from Daredevil D/p to p/d condition will leverage steal so as to improve outcomes. Is someone "going out of his way" to take SOH for that stun on steal or MUG or Endurance thief? Are they going out of their way to improve steal by taking Bewildering ambush or DA for Serpents touch? When people are taking these traits they are not looking at steal and saying "geez , Ice shard is a lousy stolne skill whats the point of traiting all of this other stuff" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the Metabattle site for thief in Conquest (PvP) mode IMProv is taken. How is that making ones build "substandard" just to improve ones steal? So somehow taking Improv for a daredevil d/p build is a good thing but taking it in a DE build is "Going out of ones way to improve a lousy skill' ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mercy is only one utility. Taking it does not make a build subpar. I can do more damage with mercy and provide more utility then I can do with Bandits defense. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to your line about "blowing your two marks" I really do not know what you are talking about. You get one mark and not two. You can only reset that mark using Mercy or by killing the mark or by letting the mark expire. If you are taking Mercy to reset a mark you have made no comp[romises in your build by using it to stack conditions and or boons . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are thief builds other then Power d/p. It is not just "5 conditions". Steal resistance can apply 20 bleed stacks and heal for 5+k just by using mercy. We have entire threads started about how a class can pply 20 bleeds in seconds as being OP and when a thief skill can do the same thing if they trait for it it suddenly giving up the ability to do damage? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On a condition P/d build which typically runs ~1800 condition damage in WvW you get about 140 per tick damage on a bleed. With easy might access Via those same Stolen skills your base condition damage jumps to around 2400 giving another 40 per tick on bleeds. Where on Earth are you sacrificing damage because you used mercy to reset malice? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a condition build you are not all that concerned about building up malice. You want to apply conditions and 20 bleeds is a lot of conditions. It what you will get from 7 deathblossoms costing 28 ini. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are power with these new stolen skills , you will not do as well as a condition build from the Condition component but that is how it should be. You focus on your malice buildup and would use stolen skills for thing slike the Immob , poison ,slow and boons. Steal mobility, just as example can get you and up to 5 allies superspeed for 12 seconds with Improv traited without using mercy. Without using mercy you can get yourself and up to 5 allies 10 seconds of protection even as you apply 20 stacks of vuln on your enemy. (this IF you take peripheral..if you dont you still get these boons spplied to yourself) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is not junk nor does it suck and the only trait needed is improv. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When you use mercy, you get to use your mark again, therefore, you have 2 marks. You're welcome to try the build in SPvP, let me know how it goes. > > > > > > > > > > > > I can tell you how it will go. > > > > > > > > > > > > You're rolling the dice on landing a 7 step chain. Mark > SH > SH > Mercy > Mark > SH > SH. The cast times themselves combined takes three seconds, and thats not including aftercast. If any of the marks are dodged, you do not get the stolen item. If you are line of sighted, you do not get the stolen item. That's your DPS, gone. The problem with bleed is that it needs to be applied constantly for pressure, you don't 'burst' with bleed. You can do that with burns, before Legendary Lore was nerfed, because 16 or so stacks of burning actually required a quick response time. And again, you're talking about a necromancer here, likely a scourge, who will see a bunch of conditions and press F2, to convert it into boons. > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, sure. if you caught someone without cleanses, fine, you'd probably kill them. That doesn't mean these skills are good by any means. > > > > > > > > > > > > And of course, mercy is not a subpar skill, its by far the best cantrip utility available, but to use it to recharge SH, is a waste. > > > > > > > > > > > > Improvisation is a powerful trait, but why on earth would you take it for deadeye stolen skills? You'd take it for the thief and daredevil's because they are actually good, and if you were running a condition build, you'd drop potent poison for it? No way. > > > > > > > > > > I play the builds I talk about, unlike you and have used them in all ieterations including "potent poison". P/d does not have a poison source unless one is spamming their number 2. Potent poison is not as effective as saving that INI for number three and or stealths via CND. Using number two costs INI. Using Improv back to back does not cost INI. > > > > > > > > > > Added to that number 2 on p/d is a porjectile which can be reflected or blocked with projectile hate such as the new warrior elite. That will not block the condition steal apps off steal. > > > > > > > > > > You do not NEED to tell me "how it will go" because I play the buidls I talk about and know how they go. > > > > > > > > Then I call 'dolyak' that this build is anywhere successful at platinum at all. You've made a condiburst build that only works, if the enemy is a necromancer. And not a very good condiburst either. > > > > > > > > You lose half your burst if your mark gets dodged. Half your burst relies on a 30s cd utility. Once cleansed you're left with what, pistol autos? Stealth pistol attacks will require you to be at 900 range anyways, which is in range for most of the transfers. CnD is a terrible method of stealth to rely on if you don't have steal. > > > > > > > > You've dedicated TWO GM traits for the purpose of front loading your mark, and you have little else in the way of cover conditions to ensure these conditions stay. > > > > > > > > At say, 1500 condition damage your bleeds do 112 damage per second. At 20 stacks, even for the benefit of the doubt that it gets successfully applied, all at once, is only 2240 damage per second. Scourges running carrion these days will have 28k+ HP. Have a think about that. Nefarious Favor also says hi. > > > > > > You can belive what ever you like. It does not change my experience. I do not get my gameplay advice from metabattle. I take the builds in game and TRY them. I have played all the iterations you have listed and know how they work relative to one another. Your approval is not required. > > > > > > It is not IMPROV that needs to trait other utilities and skills to work. It is POTENT poison. If you have no sources of poison in your build you have to trait other things to get that poison. Improv does nto need mercy. It does not need a given weapon set. It does not need panic strike. ALL builds the thief has have steal and do not have to trait extra to get steal meaning improv gets its second use on every single thief build, Unlike potent poison. > > > > I'm not looking to approve anything, but the evidence is all there, its nothing to do with metabattle. Improvisation is a good trait, but not the way you use it and definitely doesn't make your argument of steal health any stronger. And what if this build was up against a guardian? You do all those hijinks to get what, 10 stacks of poison? With weakness and confusion that can be removed simply by one virtue of resolve? Thats beyond terrible. > > > > It may work for you, but you'd have to be up against some really inexperienced players. > > And what is your suggestion? Take potent posin? Claim that "a condition burst can be dodged". ? > > You claim to know everything about condition builds and the DE spec yet suggested we get TWO marks, which we do not. Mercy does not give you a second mark. It only allows you to change to another mark before expiriy. If I kill a person My mark resets. that does not mean that I have two marks. if a mark expires, my mark resets that does not mean I have two marks. > > You mentioned Condi burst and the ability to dodge the same in reference to my build. Say what? You do not even know what my build is. ANY condition build can have its steal dodged or blocked. The difference if with Improv and the new steals I have two such burts. So what you dodge one , I have another coming your way and then a third. Why do YOU think it easier to dodge someone using Improv over someone using Potent poison.? > > You then claimed in order to take Improv i was giving up all of my other damging skills and traits so as to predicate all my burst on improv. How on earth do you arrive at this conclusion? The build in every other respect is the same as virtually every other P/d build out there save for the fact one traitline dropped to take DE. I have tested DE against Daredevil in ap/d build. DE does the job better. All Daredevil does is add one torment and one bleed on a dodge and p/d builds do not rely on dodge as other builds do. They stealth. They do not want to dodge when stealthed because impaling would reveal them. > > Will Acro provide more condition damage to P/d condition? Will this be done through the CS line? Acro. Daredevil and CS are all subpar for a condition p/d build. That leaves SA, TR DA and DE. With the OLD steals One would never rely on the stolen items for condtion damage. With the NEW steals there significant damage available and especiallyw hen using improv. > > You then claimed I was using Two GM traits to use my build. Again say what? There only one GM trait taken and that Improv. I am taking that ANYWAYS in a P/d build because I am not getting a lot of poison in. I can still take spider venom if I wish. Taking improv does not preclude the use of spider venom and where potent poison increases the effectiveness of spider venom by two stacks, it does not provide that second source of 5 bleeds, or three torments or 10 seconds protection or 6 seconds resistance. > > I really do not think you have thought this trough in the least. > > Take the steal one traited potent poison , one traited improv. > > Improv Steal against necro 5 more bleed. 1300 health. > Potent poison against Necro 1 more poison. > > Improv steal against Revenant 3 extra torment 6secs extra resistance. > Potent poison steal against revenant 1 extra poison. > > Improv steal against Warrior. 8 more second weakness added 5 might gained. > Potent Posion steal against warrior. 1 more poison. > > Improv steal against Engineer . 10 extra vuln 10 more seconds Protection > Potent poison steal against revenant 1 extra poison. > > And so on. If you are in p/d Improv is simply a better skill all round for the DE spec and I am not even using Mercy in my example That not the sum total either as on every one of those steals I have the change of resetting a venom, my mercy, my heal, my elite. It is not required that reset happen but when it does the build benefits tremendously. > > Now speaking to mercy. It dos NOT give 2 marks. It allows you to reset one when you find it beneficial. If you are paying attention in a given battle that mark will expire at 25 seconds. That mark could also flee out of your range. There might crop up better targets of opportunity wherein it advantageous to reset the mark early. That mark might be oblivious to your presence allowing you to use 4 stolen items in a row on him. EVERY game situation is different. Apparently from what I read in your posts this not the case in PvP where you describe following rote rotations. > > I adapt and use the mercy reset when it to my advantage to do so. I do not follow "rotations". if I have stolen off a thief and of a sudden a Necro shows, I am going to use my stolen Thief item as quickly as possible , reset the mark with mercy and steal health from the necro. It just a better steal. If I see an enemy all clustered around one area and I am at range, I am going to burn all my stolen "steal healths" or "steal resistance" or "stel durability" in a row because I am going to apply those bleeds, those torments or that vulnerability to multiple targets. > > As to the time it takes to cast, like any skill this easily worked around. It not like there no other 3/4 second activation skills out there. The Combo of 1500 range with stealth access emans you can get the vast majority of these off. As well you do NOT have to use your stolen skill against the mark, If he aware you there and ready to dodge switch targets. This does not require resetting a mark. If there 5 people grouped together and they see you raise your hand to execute your steal, it pretty hard for them to tell which of them you singled out and all 5 are not going to dodge. > > This is not 1v1 dueling. > > Finally, when someone has to resort to "oh you must face all bad opponents" to try and make his point , he does so because he is unable to dispute the points being made. It a cop out. > > I stopped after your first paragraph because you seem to conveniently miss the point. Your build around stolen skills for condiburst is just plain terrible. There is no salvation for it, forget what I said about potent poison. You made a build that relies on 7 skills for a burst, that can only be used specifically for a class that is categorically good at dealing with it. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mercy What are you smoking? I said mercy gives you a second mark meaning you can use it again. I know what it does, I use it in my build. My build that doesn't rely on steal health. lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urejt.5648 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 I have much more simple fix to deadeye's stolen skills. Put 500 dmg (or 1000 if cant crit) on every stolen skill. Value becomes clear. PS Vault (staff 5) on daredevils still gives only 5 % dmg from trickery traits instead of 6%. Also it gives only 10 endurance instead of 12 from staff mastery trait. 20% value bug is a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elxdark.9702 Posted October 6, 2017 Author Share Posted October 6, 2017 > @babazhook.6805 said: > The OP listed the steal skills but the details of each skill do not match in game experience of the same in PvE or WvW. I have not tested PvP but see no indication the values different there. As such I will go with what I have observed rather then what the WIKI states. If people that PvP can in fat confirm these numbers different in PvP then it an entirely different debate. > > Old steal ports TO an enemy. This can be both good and bad. Many times it can not be used because porting to an enemy can land you amongst a group or in AOE circles. At the same time it excellent for chase down and taking persons by surprise with high initial damage. New steal has 1500 range which in this meta is a significant advantage in many instances. As example I can load a scourge or Guardian with conditions at 1500 range without having to close to melee and face those sand shades or those DH traps. It really too situational to give either the no port, or the port an advantage here. Certain buidls WILl want the port. Certain builds will not. > > The might stacks for steal warmth is 5 and not 1. > The Bleed stacks steal health is 5 not one. > The torment stacks steal resistance is 3 not one. > The Vuln stacks steal Durability is 10 and not one > Steal defenses The poison stacks are 2 not one. > > Further to that one can not ignore the fact that by traiting the DE spec in the right manner one can share these boons with up to 5 allies and apply the conditions to up to 5 enemies. This increases their relative merit when compared to the old steals exponentially. In theory steal health as exmaple can apply 100 stacks of bleed sum totalusing steal health. In thoery you can give yourself and 4 firends 24 seconds resistance via steal resistance. > > This would be very hard to pull off in game which is why I suggest just increasing the radius of peripheral vision to 400 would go a longw ayto pushing all the new stolen skills over the top. > You're right about the stacks but you're still missing the whole point, even if they were 20 stacks they will suck still. why? Because steal skills are actually **SKILLS** and not conditions/boons thing that Anet tried to do with Deadeye. I'll say this again dude, yes in WvW you can basically perma stealth and throw your conditions or whatever you want from 1500 range and people will just die. In PvP is a bit different, if you face bad players you will beat them whatever you're using I think that's the same for WvW but if you're actually against good players then these stolen skills are useless, a single condition and a single boon. No damage No skill No advantage against the other class, nothing. Just a single condition and boon. Nobody in PvP willl ever user peripheral vision even if they increase the range to 10000000, because it's bad. This and the mark being a cast time are the two major flaws of this spec, against **any** dp dash thief even the worst of them you will have problems, why? because steal is instant and when they steal you they gain stealth instead of fury and blind. The same for other classes, guardian you do poison man poison... and get aegis WTF but if you steal a guardian you gain a 3s daze and a damage skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > The OP listed the steal skills but the details of each skill do not match in game experience of the same in PvE or WvW. I have not tested PvP but see no indication the values different there. As such I will go with what I have observed rather then what the WIKI states. If people that PvP can in fat confirm these numbers different in PvP then it an entirely different debate. > > > > Old steal ports TO an enemy. This can be both good and bad. Many times it can not be used because porting to an enemy can land you amongst a group or in AOE circles. At the same time it excellent for chase down and taking persons by surprise with high initial damage. New steal has 1500 range which in this meta is a significant advantage in many instances. As example I can load a scourge or Guardian with conditions at 1500 range without having to close to melee and face those sand shades or those DH traps. It really too situational to give either the no port, or the port an advantage here. Certain buidls WILl want the port. Certain builds will not. > > > > The might stacks for steal warmth is 5 and not 1. > > The Bleed stacks steal health is 5 not one. > > The torment stacks steal resistance is 3 not one. > > The Vuln stacks steal Durability is 10 and not one > > Steal defenses The poison stacks are 2 not one. > > > > Further to that one can not ignore the fact that by traiting the DE spec in the right manner one can share these boons with up to 5 allies and apply the conditions to up to 5 enemies. This increases their relative merit when compared to the old steals exponentially. In theory steal health as exmaple can apply 100 stacks of bleed sum totalusing steal health. In thoery you can give yourself and 4 firends 24 seconds resistance via steal resistance. > > > > This would be very hard to pull off in game which is why I suggest just increasing the radius of peripheral vision to 400 would go a longw ayto pushing all the new stolen skills over the top. > > > > You're right about the stacks but you're still missing the whole point, even if they were 20 stacks they will suck still. > why? > Because steal skills are actually **SKILLS** and not conditions/boons thing that Anet tried to do with Deadeye. > I'll say this again dude, yes in WvW you can basically perma stealth and throw your conditions or whatever you want from 1500 range and people will just die. > In PvP is a bit different, if you face bad players you will beat them whatever you're using I think that's the same for WvW but if you're actually against good players then these stolen skills are useless, a single condition and a single boon. No damage No skill No advantage against the other class, nothing. Just a single condition and boon. > > Nobody in PvP willl ever user peripheral vision even if they increase the range to 10000000, because it's bad. > > This and the mark being a cast time are the two major flaws of this spec, against **any** dp dash thief even the worst of them you will have problems, why? because steal is instant and when they steal you they gain stealth instead of fury and blind. > The same for other classes, guardian you do poison man poison... and get aegis kitten but if you steal a guardian you gain a 3s daze and a damage skill. No one will use given skills in PvP NOT because the skill bad but because PVP is an artificial environmnet where the number of players are limited and the game built around taking capture points. It is why virtiually every thief in PvP uses SB as an off hand weapon. That virtually every thief takes SB does not mean it the best weapon out there for a thief. It only means in that constructed environment it provides the best mobility for a thief to fulfill his very narrowly defined role. Please tell me how Throw Gunk helped a thief in PvP. Please tell me how healing Seed helped a thief in PvP. That these skills were little used or had little effect hardly meant a thief could not Pvp. That these skills were little used or had little effect still saw the meta for power thief in Pvp taking Improv. I have already stated that the stolen skill from thief was underwhelming compared to the old but a NUMBER of the stolen skills, as you yourself admit are BETTER in the new then the old. You can not get protection with the old skills. You can get DAZE off pistol 4. I sort of like what protection can do for me.I like being able to get resistance from a steal as there no other real source. How is it you can complain on one hand that Boons do a thief little good and than on the other acknowledge that Consume plasma is the most OP of the old stolen skills? Read my first post to you on this matter. I clearly stated you were understating the effects of the skills you listed. Getting the number of stacks wrong was exactly that and once again in your bit on the stolen warrior skill you indicated 5 stacks might would make the skill fine when it was already five stacks. So I am asking for consistency here. How can stealing a boon be Ok if it 5 stacks might but now not ok because it 5 stacks might? Lastly complaining that even if 20 stacks of a given condition applied it would suck. Why? The ultimate purpose of using a skill is to down and kill an enemy. What do you think will apply more damage towards acheiving that goal? 20 stacks of bleed. a 3 second daze off the stolen Guardian skill. Chill and a few k damage off ice shard stab. An Etheral field via thrown gunk. Now just as the new steal has a cast time SO do all of those old stolen skills. Those old skills could be blocked or avoided , the difference being the old skills were two phased (first the steal which could be dodged or blocked and then the use of the skill itself which outside a small handful could be dodged or blocked) while the new skills one phased in that you must dodg the steal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elxdark.9702 Posted October 6, 2017 Author Share Posted October 6, 2017 > @Urejt.5648 said: > I have much more simple fix to deadeye's stolen skills. Put 500 dmg (or 1000 if cant crit) on every stolen skill. Value becomes clear. > > PS > Vault (staff 5) on daredevils still gives only 5 % dmg from trickery traits instead of 6%. Also it gives only 10 endurance instead of 12 from staff mastery trait. 20% value bug is a lot. I'm done talking with the WvW guy. I Agree with this, they need to increase the damage a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elxdark.9702 Posted October 6, 2017 Author Share Posted October 6, 2017 > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > The OP listed the steal skills but the details of each skill do not match in game experience of the same in PvE or WvW. I have not tested PvP but see no indication the values different there. As such I will go with what I have observed rather then what the WIKI states. If people that PvP can in fat confirm these numbers different in PvP then it an entirely different debate. > > > > > > Old steal ports TO an enemy. This can be both good and bad. Many times it can not be used because porting to an enemy can land you amongst a group or in AOE circles. At the same time it excellent for chase down and taking persons by surprise with high initial damage. New steal has 1500 range which in this meta is a significant advantage in many instances. As example I can load a scourge or Guardian with conditions at 1500 range without having to close to melee and face those sand shades or those DH traps. It really too situational to give either the no port, or the port an advantage here. Certain buidls WILl want the port. Certain builds will not. > > > > > > The might stacks for steal warmth is 5 and not 1. > > > The Bleed stacks steal health is 5 not one. > > > The torment stacks steal resistance is 3 not one. > > > The Vuln stacks steal Durability is 10 and not one > > > Steal defenses The poison stacks are 2 not one. > > > > > > Further to that one can not ignore the fact that by traiting the DE spec in the right manner one can share these boons with up to 5 allies and apply the conditions to up to 5 enemies. This increases their relative merit when compared to the old steals exponentially. In theory steal health as exmaple can apply 100 stacks of bleed sum totalusing steal health. In thoery you can give yourself and 4 firends 24 seconds resistance via steal resistance. > > > > > > This would be very hard to pull off in game which is why I suggest just increasing the radius of peripheral vision to 400 would go a longw ayto pushing all the new stolen skills over the top. > > > > > > > You're right about the stacks but you're still missing the whole point, even if they were 20 stacks they will suck still. > > why? > > Because steal skills are actually **SKILLS** and not conditions/boons thing that Anet tried to do with Deadeye. > > I'll say this again dude, yes in WvW you can basically perma stealth and throw your conditions or whatever you want from 1500 range and people will just die. > > In PvP is a bit different, if you face bad players you will beat them whatever you're using I think that's the same for WvW but if you're actually against good players then these stolen skills are useless, a single condition and a single boon. No damage No skill No advantage against the other class, nothing. Just a single condition and boon. > > > > Nobody in PvP willl ever user peripheral vision even if they increase the range to 10000000, because it's bad. > > > > This and the mark being a cast time are the two major flaws of this spec, against **any** dp dash thief even the worst of them you will have problems, why? because steal is instant and when they steal you they gain stealth instead of fury and blind. > > The same for other classes, guardian you do poison man poison... and get aegis kitten but if you steal a guardian you gain a 3s daze and a damage skill. > > No one will use given skills in PvP NOT because the skill bad but because PVP is an artificial environmnet where the number of players are limited and the game built around taking capture points. > > It is why virtiually every thief in PvP uses SB as an off hand weapon. That virtually every thief takes SB does not mean it the best weapon out there for a thief. It only means in that constructed environment it provides the best mobility for a thief to fulfill his very narrowly defined role. > > Please tell me how Throw Gunk helped a thief in PvP. > Please tell me how healing Seed helped a thief in PvP. > > That these skills were little used or had little effect hardly meant a thief could not Pvp. That these skills were little used or had little effect still saw the meta for power thief in Pvp taking Improv. > > I have already stated that the stolen skill from thief was underwhelming compared to the old but a NUMBER of the stolen skills, as you yourself admit are BETTER in the new then the old. You can not get protection with the old skills. You can get DAZE off pistol 4. I sort of like what protection can do for me.I like being able to get resistance from a steal as there no other real source. How is it you can complain on one hand that Boons do a thief little good and than on the other acknowledge that Consume plasma is the most OP of the old stolen skills? > > Read my first post to you on this matter. I clearly stated you were understating the effects of the skills you listed. Getting the number of stacks wrong was exactly that and once again in your bit on the stolen warrior skill you indicated 5 stacks might would make the skill fine when it was already five stacks. So I am asking for consistency here. How can stealing a boon be Ok if it 5 stacks might but now not ok because it 5 stacks might? > > Lastly complaining that even if 20 stacks of a given condition applied it would suck. > > Why? The ultimate purpose of using a skill is to down and kill an enemy. What do you think will apply more damage towards acheiving that goal? > > 20 stacks of bleed. > a 3 second daze off the stolen Guardian skill. > Chill and a few k damage off ice shard stab. > An Etheral field via thrown gunk. > > > Now just as the new steal has a cast time SO do all of those old stolen skills. Those old skills could be blocked or avoided , the difference being the old skills were two phased (first the steal which could be dodged or blocked and then the use of the skill itself which outside a small handful could be dodged or blocked) while the new skills one phased in that you must dodg the steal. > I stopped reading when you said healing seed doesn't help thief in PvP. We play different game modes that's why we're both biased but I respect your opinion and if you think the stolen skills are alright then fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 > @kKagari.6804 said: > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > @kKagari.6804 said: > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > d> @kKagari.6804 said: > > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > > > @kKagari.6804 said: > > > > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > > > > > @kKagari.6804 said: > > > > > > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > > > > > > > @Elxdark.9702 said: > > > > > > > > > > > I don't really know what to say if people on this forum think 5 bleeds stack are good for a stolen skill. > > > > > > > > > > > I'd love to hear your reasons why you guys think stolen skills are alright. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can trait to get a theoretical maximum of 100 bleed stacks off a stolen skill.> @kKagari.6804 said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @kKagari.6804 said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The stolen skills are better then what is being presented. As example the Torment add on Steal Resistance is THREE stacks. The Bleed stacks from Steal health are in fact 5 stacks. (This in WvW and PVE at least as I do not PvP) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So lets look at steal health used with mercy and traited improv. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steal and mark get 2 steal healths. Use both thats 10 bleeds applied. Mercy and get two more steal healths. Use both and thats 20 total bleeds. If in a condition build any halfways decent duration traited and you are talking about 16 seconds bleeds. If in power wait a bit and get free duration via malice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are traited DA/TR/DE for BA this also means 4 poison and 10 confusion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The torment at three stacks can provide 12 stacks torment using this method. Keep in mind tht if traited up this becomes AOE torment. 12 stacks on up to 5 enemy meaning 60 stacks total available at theoretical maximum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is not the sum total however of what can be accomplished just using the Steal traits with those stolen items. You mentioned that damage component. Yes it is small but it not intended there for power builds. That damage compenent allows a proc trigger for a venom. So as example trait MERCY and Spider venom with DA/DE/TR taking Improv and BA. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Assume we steal health. Steal and stolen skills alone apply 8 poison , 10 confusion , 20 bleeds , 20 might , Weakness , Get around 5K in heals (mug and the health cmponent combined) gain 4 ini and steals 6 boons. From the stolen item alone comes the 20 bleeds, part of the spider venom poison and around 3k heal. Thats not insignificant. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, but you're up against a Necro who can just plague it back to you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > He can not plague back to 1500 range and he can not plague back if you are stealthed. That plague can be used against ANY condition build. That does not stop there being warrior, mesmer, Guardian, ranger and theif condition builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're talking about having to trait improvisation, using your mercy, marking twice, to make the steal health look somewhat passable. That's not saying much for the skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is your point? That is how the STEAL skill has always worked! It is not just about the stolen item. As example under the old skill the stolen skill off an Elemetalist was 10 seconds chill. Under the old steal the stolen skill off a thief was 3 seconds stealth and a blind. Are you suggesting the steal skill was not doing enough under the old system? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We traited in order to layer on more goodies to the steal. If you dod not trait to improve your steals then the skill did little good. Having an extra daze every 30 seconds or and extra stealth or blind every thirty seconds was hardly going to turn a match around. It was all of the extras you added in. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My point is that it sucks? You're going out of your way to make a terrible skill work for you, while the rest of your build is going to be subpar. No to sound rude, but you yourself said you don't PvP, I don't think you can comment on 'what turns a match around'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you blow your 2 Marks, and your mercy, on an opening gambit for those 5 conditions, all of which can easily be returned or converted by the current meta scourges, you're left with no malice to pump up your later damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rest of the build is NOT subpar. Every thief build from Daredevil D/p to p/d condition will leverage steal so as to improve outcomes. Is someone "going out of his way" to take SOH for that stun on steal or MUG or Endurance thief? Are they going out of their way to improve steal by taking Bewildering ambush or DA for Serpents touch? When people are taking these traits they are not looking at steal and saying "geez , Ice shard is a lousy stolne skill whats the point of traiting all of this other stuff" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the Metabattle site for thief in Conquest (PvP) mode IMProv is taken. How is that making ones build "substandard" just to improve ones steal? So somehow taking Improv for a daredevil d/p build is a good thing but taking it in a DE build is "Going out of ones way to improve a lousy skill' ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mercy is only one utility. Taking it does not make a build subpar. I can do more damage with mercy and provide more utility then I can do with Bandits defense. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to your line about "blowing your two marks" I really do not know what you are talking about. You get one mark and not two. You can only reset that mark using Mercy or by killing the mark or by letting the mark expire. If you are taking Mercy to reset a mark you have made no comp[romises in your build by using it to stack conditions and or boons . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are thief builds other then Power d/p. It is not just "5 conditions". Steal resistance can apply 20 bleed stacks and heal for 5+k just by using mercy. We have entire threads started about how a class can pply 20 bleeds in seconds as being OP and when a thief skill can do the same thing if they trait for it it suddenly giving up the ability to do damage? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On a condition P/d build which typically runs ~1800 condition damage in WvW you get about 140 per tick damage on a bleed. With easy might access Via those same Stolen skills your base condition damage jumps to around 2400 giving another 40 per tick on bleeds. Where on Earth are you sacrificing damage because you used mercy to reset malice? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a condition build you are not all that concerned about building up malice. You want to apply conditions and 20 bleeds is a lot of conditions. It what you will get from 7 deathblossoms costing 28 ini. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are power with these new stolen skills , you will not do as well as a condition build from the Condition component but that is how it should be. You focus on your malice buildup and would use stolen skills for thing slike the Immob , poison ,slow and boons. Steal mobility, just as example can get you and up to 5 allies superspeed for 12 seconds with Improv traited without using mercy. Without using mercy you can get yourself and up to 5 allies 10 seconds of protection even as you apply 20 stacks of vuln on your enemy. (this IF you take peripheral..if you dont you still get these boons spplied to yourself) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is not junk nor does it suck and the only trait needed is improv. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When you use mercy, you get to use your mark again, therefore, you have 2 marks. You're welcome to try the build in SPvP, let me know how it goes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can tell you how it will go. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're rolling the dice on landing a 7 step chain. Mark > SH > SH > Mercy > Mark > SH > SH. The cast times themselves combined takes three seconds, and thats not including aftercast. If any of the marks are dodged, you do not get the stolen item. If you are line of sighted, you do not get the stolen item. That's your DPS, gone. The problem with bleed is that it needs to be applied constantly for pressure, you don't 'burst' with bleed. You can do that with burns, before Legendary Lore was nerfed, because 16 or so stacks of burning actually required a quick response time. And again, you're talking about a necromancer here, likely a scourge, who will see a bunch of conditions and press F2, to convert it into boons. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, sure. if you caught someone without cleanses, fine, you'd probably kill them. That doesn't mean these skills are good by any means. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And of course, mercy is not a subpar skill, its by far the best cantrip utility available, but to use it to recharge SH, is a waste. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Improvisation is a powerful trait, but why on earth would you take it for deadeye stolen skills? You'd take it for the thief and daredevil's because they are actually good, and if you were running a condition build, you'd drop potent poison for it? No way. > > > > > > > > > > > > I play the builds I talk about, unlike you and have used them in all ieterations including "potent poison". P/d does not have a poison source unless one is spamming their number 2. Potent poison is not as effective as saving that INI for number three and or stealths via CND. Using number two costs INI. Using Improv back to back does not cost INI. > > > > > > > > > > > > Added to that number 2 on p/d is a porjectile which can be reflected or blocked with projectile hate such as the new warrior elite. That will not block the condition steal apps off steal. > > > > > > > > > > > > You do not NEED to tell me "how it will go" because I play the buidls I talk about and know how they go. > > > > > > > > > > Then I call 'dolyak' that this build is anywhere successful at platinum at all. You've made a condiburst build that only works, if the enemy is a necromancer. And not a very good condiburst either. > > > > > > > > > > You lose half your burst if your mark gets dodged. Half your burst relies on a 30s cd utility. Once cleansed you're left with what, pistol autos? Stealth pistol attacks will require you to be at 900 range anyways, which is in range for most of the transfers. CnD is a terrible method of stealth to rely on if you don't have steal. > > > > > > > > > > You've dedicated TWO GM traits for the purpose of front loading your mark, and you have little else in the way of cover conditions to ensure these conditions stay. > > > > > > > > > > At say, 1500 condition damage your bleeds do 112 damage per second. At 20 stacks, even for the benefit of the doubt that it gets successfully applied, all at once, is only 2240 damage per second. Scourges running carrion these days will have 28k+ HP. Have a think about that. Nefarious Favor also says hi. > > > > > > > > You can belive what ever you like. It does not change my experience. I do not get my gameplay advice from metabattle. I take the builds in game and TRY them. I have played all the iterations you have listed and know how they work relative to one another. Your approval is not required. > > > > > > > > It is not IMPROV that needs to trait other utilities and skills to work. It is POTENT poison. If you have no sources of poison in your build you have to trait other things to get that poison. Improv does nto need mercy. It does not need a given weapon set. It does not need panic strike. ALL builds the thief has have steal and do not have to trait extra to get steal meaning improv gets its second use on every single thief build, Unlike potent poison. > > > > > > I'm not looking to approve anything, but the evidence is all there, its nothing to do with metabattle. Improvisation is a good trait, but not the way you use it and definitely doesn't make your argument of steal health any stronger. And what if this build was up against a guardian? You do all those hijinks to get what, 10 stacks of poison? With weakness and confusion that can be removed simply by one virtue of resolve? Thats beyond terrible. > > > > > > It may work for you, but you'd have to be up against some really inexperienced players. > > > > And what is your suggestion? Take potent posin? Claim that "a condition burst can be dodged". ? > > > > You claim to know everything about condition builds and the DE spec yet suggested we get TWO marks, which we do not. Mercy does not give you a second mark. It only allows you to change to another mark before expiriy. If I kill a person My mark resets. that does not mean that I have two marks. if a mark expires, my mark resets that does not mean I have two marks. > > > > You mentioned Condi burst and the ability to dodge the same in reference to my build. Say what? You do not even know what my build is. ANY condition build can have its steal dodged or blocked. The difference if with Improv and the new steals I have two such burts. So what you dodge one , I have another coming your way and then a third. Why do YOU think it easier to dodge someone using Improv over someone using Potent poison.? > > > > You then claimed in order to take Improv i was giving up all of my other damging skills and traits so as to predicate all my burst on improv. How on earth do you arrive at this conclusion? The build in every other respect is the same as virtually every other P/d build out there save for the fact one traitline dropped to take DE. I have tested DE against Daredevil in ap/d build. DE does the job better. All Daredevil does is add one torment and one bleed on a dodge and p/d builds do not rely on dodge as other builds do. They stealth. They do not want to dodge when stealthed because impaling would reveal them. > > > > Will Acro provide more condition damage to P/d condition? Will this be done through the CS line? Acro. Daredevil and CS are all subpar for a condition p/d build. That leaves SA, TR DA and DE. With the OLD steals One would never rely on the stolen items for condtion damage. With the NEW steals there significant damage available and especiallyw hen using improv. > > > > You then claimed I was using Two GM traits to use my build. Again say what? There only one GM trait taken and that Improv. I am taking that ANYWAYS in a P/d build because I am not getting a lot of poison in. I can still take spider venom if I wish. Taking improv does not preclude the use of spider venom and where potent poison increases the effectiveness of spider venom by two stacks, it does not provide that second source of 5 bleeds, or three torments or 10 seconds protection or 6 seconds resistance. > > > > I really do not think you have thought this trough in the least. > > > > Take the steal one traited potent poison , one traited improv. > > > > Improv Steal against necro 5 more bleed. 1300 health. > > Potent poison against Necro 1 more poison. > > > > Improv steal against Revenant 3 extra torment 6secs extra resistance. > > Potent poison steal against revenant 1 extra poison. > > > > Improv steal against Warrior. 8 more second weakness added 5 might gained. > > Potent Posion steal against warrior. 1 more poison. > > > > Improv steal against Engineer . 10 extra vuln 10 more seconds Protection > > Potent poison steal against revenant 1 extra poison. > > > > And so on. If you are in p/d Improv is simply a better skill all round for the DE spec and I am not even using Mercy in my example That not the sum total either as on every one of those steals I have the change of resetting a venom, my mercy, my heal, my elite. It is not required that reset happen but when it does the build benefits tremendously. > > > > Now speaking to mercy. It dos NOT give 2 marks. It allows you to reset one when you find it beneficial. If you are paying attention in a given battle that mark will expire at 25 seconds. That mark could also flee out of your range. There might crop up better targets of opportunity wherein it advantageous to reset the mark early. That mark might be oblivious to your presence allowing you to use 4 stolen items in a row on him. EVERY game situation is different. Apparently from what I read in your posts this not the case in PvP where you describe following rote rotations. > > > > I adapt and use the mercy reset when it to my advantage to do so. I do not follow "rotations". if I have stolen off a thief and of a sudden a Necro shows, I am going to use my stolen Thief item as quickly as possible , reset the mark with mercy and steal health from the necro. It just a better steal. If I see an enemy all clustered around one area and I am at range, I am going to burn all my stolen "steal healths" or "steal resistance" or "stel durability" in a row because I am going to apply those bleeds, those torments or that vulnerability to multiple targets. > > > > As to the time it takes to cast, like any skill this easily worked around. It not like there no other 3/4 second activation skills out there. The Combo of 1500 range with stealth access emans you can get the vast majority of these off. As well you do NOT have to use your stolen skill against the mark, If he aware you there and ready to dodge switch targets. This does not require resetting a mark. If there 5 people grouped together and they see you raise your hand to execute your steal, it pretty hard for them to tell which of them you singled out and all 5 are not going to dodge. > > > > This is not 1v1 dueling. > > > > Finally, when someone has to resort to "oh you must face all bad opponents" to try and make his point , he does so because he is unable to dispute the points being made. It a cop out. > > > > > > I stopped after your first paragraph because you seem to conveniently miss the point. Your build around stolen skills for condiburst is just plain terrible. There is no salvation for it, forget what I said about potent poison. > > You made a build that relies on 7 skills for a burst, that can only be used specifically for a class that is categorically good at dealing with it. > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mercy > > What are you smoking? I said mercy gives you a second mark meaning you can use it again. I know what it does, I use it in my build. My build that doesn't rely on steal health. lol. Excuse me. My build has several ways of getting a burst. Just because I take Improv , it hardly means I can not take BA. Just because I take Improv it does not mean I can not stealth and use sneak attack. Just because I take Improv , it does not mean I can not take a venom. Just because i take Improv it does not mean I can not take trappers respite. The build is not "built around steals" for condiburst. It has the same condition burst it had before any stolen item used. The new stolen skills now add another means of applying conditions over and above what I already had. Can you please detail what Condition burst I gave up by taking Improv that you have in your build because you diod not take improv or for that matter detail how the old stolen skills allowed for more condi burst? As to being usable against only one class what nonsense. Stealing from an engineer I can now Apply 20 stacks VULN in addition to my regular bursts this while getting me 20 seconds protection. Given how easy might is to get in DE the combination of 20 stacks Vuln and 20 stack Might sees all of my conditions and ticking higher and sees all of my raw damage significantly higher. Get this on an engineer and he drops fast and as a BTW reflect does not work against steal. Stealing from a revenant , in addition to my normal burst, I can now apply at minimum 6 more torment before I even use a mercy as well as garnering myself 6 seconds of resistance. Stealing from a ranger over and above my original burstI can now apply two instances of immob at 2 seconds each , 2 stacks of poison and give myself superspeed for 12 seconds. Stealing from a mesmer I can pply 8 seconds of slow and give myself 8 seconds quickness. And so on. Where do you get this nonsense that only steal health is any good and only steal health applies conditions? I can still steal to apply confusion and steal three boons if In trickery. I can still stealth and sneak attack> I still get my poisons off steal and serpenst touch. I still drop a trap and stealth when I use my heal allowing a sneak attack. I can still CnD and launch a sneak attack and apply torment as I port away. NONE of these are inhibited because I take improv and none of this changes because the stolen skills changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kKagari.6804 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 I'd take improv on the steal stolen skills because a lot of them are actually good? They have much better utility that doesn't require me to use it twice in a row to make my case? It's hilarious you actually think 6 stacks of torment, after using 3 skills is anything to write home about. Condition burst needs you to constantly be able to reapply the condition to overwhelm their cleanses in PvP. Sure it works in wvw, i know i take a whole bunch of skills in wvw i wouldn't take in PvP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eval.2371 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 > @kKagari.6804 said: > I'd take improv on the steal stolen skills because a lot of them are actually good? They have much better utility that doesn't require me to use it twice in a row to make my case? > > It's hilarious you actually think 6 stacks of torment, after using 3 skills is anything to write home about. > > Condition burst needs you to constantly be able to reapply the condition to overwhelm their cleanses in PvP. Sure it works in wvw, i know i take a whole bunch of skills in wvw i wouldn't take in PvP This is my perspective: it works for small scale groups. It's not useless in wvw. It maybe useless in sPvP because it does not fit in thiefs +1 role. Thats is pretty much the same story with 70% of builds with every class... in sPvP there is builds that work because of limited stats and the format of standing/rotating on a point favors those builds. 6 stacks of torment(which for the record is about 3k not moving 6k moving) is nothing to write home about... however, the 6 seconds of resistance it applies along with 20 stacks of might for the group is very useful to the team. Or any of the other buffs frankly (other than thief stolen) is useful to the team. Sure, the condi's will get cleansed but that's literally a statement you can make about every condi build. You get enough pressure to force a condi clear on an opponent for a grandmaster and a skill. To me that's worth it . As for the other bonuses again yes you have to spec into those bonuses but they are way better for a group compared to base stolen skills which are strictly selfish buffs for the thief. The way you talk about condi thief, sounds like you really don't have any understanding just how easy it is to puke out bleed and poison on thief or how much pressure it can apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kKagari.6804 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 You can run just about any build and be effective as long as you have the numbers in wvw. The variables are so vast its pointless to discuss. What i said, which you conveniently miss out, is that his argument to validate steal health requires two specific GM traits, 7 skills to pull off, in which missing either marks cuts the combos dps and healing by half. You don't need to validate consume ectoplasm in the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 I think you completely forgot the nature of the Deadeye's stolen skills being an instant cast, even when stunned. To you, Aegis and poison sounds stupid. But it is actually rediculously helpful when used at the right moment. Block an attack that would normally kill you while you were stunned (because your stun break is on cool down) - guardian is now ticking for poison damage that he might try to purge. You get a precious second to get back up on your feet and murder him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kash.9213 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > Deadeye's stolen skills being an instant cast, even when stunned. That happens more than I thought it would. Given, it's usually at a point I'd have Stolen into someone already but then that's just me running away instead of buying my group a second. We have to decide if we're stronger or more helpful with core steals direct utility or supplementing our groups gradual burn. Some of those core stolens would be awesome with rifle though, core steal and modifiers and stolens sync really well with most weapon skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 The added range of the stolen skill is a huge advantage especially against scourges. I tend not to much like getting next to a scourge when I am applying conditions to him. Very few core skills give you that range. The range alos useful when coming on a group of enemy intent on fipping a camp or attacking an ally defending the same. Coming from at 1500 you can tab through the enemy group to find the best to steal from and apply the conditions and boons as you approach. They are generally oblivious to your presence and this can not only lay on some hurt before you get in range with your regular weapon, but buy your ally some time as well depending on what stolen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 > @kash.9213 said: > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > Deadeye's stolen skills being an instant cast, even when stunned. > > That happens more than I thought it would. Given, it's usually at a point I'd have Stolen into someone already but then that's just me running away instead of buying my group a second. We have to decide if we're stronger or more helpful with core steals direct utility or supplementing our groups gradual burn. Some of those core stolens would be awesome with rifle though, core steal and modifiers and stolens sync really well with most weapon skills. Of the old core skills I would much prefer the old thief skill over the new for rifle. The Consume plasma from mesmer is just better overall then the new but is not specific to rifle. For rifle specific POWER the old Necro fear might be preffered I would think as You could fear as they close and get off some shots as they flee. The rest I do not see as particularly advantagous to rifle unless we talking about some of the steals off beasts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 > @Elxdark.9702 said: > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > The OP listed the steal skills but the details of each skill do not match in game experience of the same in PvE or WvW. I have not tested PvP but see no indication the values different there. As such I will go with what I have observed rather then what the WIKI states. If people that PvP can in fat confirm these numbers different in PvP then it an entirely different debate. > > > > > > > > Old steal ports TO an enemy. This can be both good and bad. Many times it can not be used because porting to an enemy can land you amongst a group or in AOE circles. At the same time it excellent for chase down and taking persons by surprise with high initial damage. New steal has 1500 range which in this meta is a significant advantage in many instances. As example I can load a scourge or Guardian with conditions at 1500 range without having to close to melee and face those sand shades or those DH traps. It really too situational to give either the no port, or the port an advantage here. Certain buidls WILl want the port. Certain builds will not. > > > > > > > > The might stacks for steal warmth is 5 and not 1. > > > > The Bleed stacks steal health is 5 not one. > > > > The torment stacks steal resistance is 3 not one. > > > > The Vuln stacks steal Durability is 10 and not one > > > > Steal defenses The poison stacks are 2 not one. > > > > > > > > Further to that one can not ignore the fact that by traiting the DE spec in the right manner one can share these boons with up to 5 allies and apply the conditions to up to 5 enemies. This increases their relative merit when compared to the old steals exponentially. In theory steal health as exmaple can apply 100 stacks of bleed sum totalusing steal health. In thoery you can give yourself and 4 firends 24 seconds resistance via steal resistance. > > > > > > > > This would be very hard to pull off in game which is why I suggest just increasing the radius of peripheral vision to 400 would go a longw ayto pushing all the new stolen skills over the top. > > > > > > > > > > You're right about the stacks but you're still missing the whole point, even if they were 20 stacks they will suck still. > > > why? > > > Because steal skills are actually **SKILLS** and not conditions/boons thing that Anet tried to do with Deadeye. > > > I'll say this again dude, yes in WvW you can basically perma stealth and throw your conditions or whatever you want from 1500 range and people will just die. > > > In PvP is a bit different, if you face bad players you will beat them whatever you're using I think that's the same for WvW but if you're actually against good players then these stolen skills are useless, a single condition and a single boon. No damage No skill No advantage against the other class, nothing. Just a single condition and boon. > > > > > > Nobody in PvP willl ever user peripheral vision even if they increase the range to 10000000, because it's bad. > > > > > > This and the mark being a cast time are the two major flaws of this spec, against **any** dp dash thief even the worst of them you will have problems, why? because steal is instant and when they steal you they gain stealth instead of fury and blind. > > > The same for other classes, guardian you do poison man poison... and get aegis kitten but if you steal a guardian you gain a 3s daze and a damage skill. > > > > No one will use given skills in PvP NOT because the skill bad but because PVP is an artificial environmnet where the number of players are limited and the game built around taking capture points. > > > > It is why virtiually every thief in PvP uses SB as an off hand weapon. That virtually every thief takes SB does not mean it the best weapon out there for a thief. It only means in that constructed environment it provides the best mobility for a thief to fulfill his very narrowly defined role. > > > > Please tell me how Throw Gunk helped a thief in PvP. > > Please tell me how healing Seed helped a thief in PvP. > > > > That these skills were little used or had little effect hardly meant a thief could not Pvp. That these skills were little used or had little effect still saw the meta for power thief in Pvp taking Improv. > > > > I have already stated that the stolen skill from thief was underwhelming compared to the old but a NUMBER of the stolen skills, as you yourself admit are BETTER in the new then the old. You can not get protection with the old skills. You can get DAZE off pistol 4. I sort of like what protection can do for me.I like being able to get resistance from a steal as there no other real source. How is it you can complain on one hand that Boons do a thief little good and than on the other acknowledge that Consume plasma is the most OP of the old stolen skills? > > > > Read my first post to you on this matter. I clearly stated you were understating the effects of the skills you listed. Getting the number of stacks wrong was exactly that and once again in your bit on the stolen warrior skill you indicated 5 stacks might would make the skill fine when it was already five stacks. So I am asking for consistency here. How can stealing a boon be Ok if it 5 stacks might but now not ok because it 5 stacks might? > > > > Lastly complaining that even if 20 stacks of a given condition applied it would suck. > > > > Why? The ultimate purpose of using a skill is to down and kill an enemy. What do you think will apply more damage towards acheiving that goal? > > > > 20 stacks of bleed. > > a 3 second daze off the stolen Guardian skill. > > Chill and a few k damage off ice shard stab. > > An Etheral field via thrown gunk. > > > > > > Now just as the new steal has a cast time SO do all of those old stolen skills. Those old skills could be blocked or avoided , the difference being the old skills were two phased (first the steal which could be dodged or blocked and then the use of the skill itself which outside a small handful could be dodged or blocked) while the new skills one phased in that you must dodg the steal. > > > > I stopped reading when you said healing seed doesn't help thief in PvP. > We play different game modes that's why we're both biased but I respect your opinion and if you think the stolen skills are alright then fine. You stop reading a lot when someones opinion does not match your own. That does not demonstrate a respect for anothers opinion. I read all o f your posts even if I do not agree with all of what you say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elxdark.9702 Posted October 7, 2017 Author Share Posted October 7, 2017 > @babazhook.6805 said: > > @Elxdark.9702 said: > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > The OP listed the steal skills but the details of each skill do not match in game experience of the same in PvE or WvW. I have not tested PvP but see no indication the values different there. As such I will go with what I have observed rather then what the WIKI states. If people that PvP can in fat confirm these numbers different in PvP then it an entirely different debate. > > > > > > > > > > Old steal ports TO an enemy. This can be both good and bad. Many times it can not be used because porting to an enemy can land you amongst a group or in AOE circles. At the same time it excellent for chase down and taking persons by surprise with high initial damage. New steal has 1500 range which in this meta is a significant advantage in many instances. As example I can load a scourge or Guardian with conditions at 1500 range without having to close to melee and face those sand shades or those DH traps. It really too situational to give either the no port, or the port an advantage here. Certain buidls WILl want the port. Certain builds will not. > > > > > > > > > > The might stacks for steal warmth is 5 and not 1. > > > > > The Bleed stacks steal health is 5 not one. > > > > > The torment stacks steal resistance is 3 not one. > > > > > The Vuln stacks steal Durability is 10 and not one > > > > > Steal defenses The poison stacks are 2 not one. > > > > > > > > > > Further to that one can not ignore the fact that by traiting the DE spec in the right manner one can share these boons with up to 5 allies and apply the conditions to up to 5 enemies. This increases their relative merit when compared to the old steals exponentially. In theory steal health as exmaple can apply 100 stacks of bleed sum totalusing steal health. In thoery you can give yourself and 4 firends 24 seconds resistance via steal resistance. > > > > > > > > > > This would be very hard to pull off in game which is why I suggest just increasing the radius of peripheral vision to 400 would go a longw ayto pushing all the new stolen skills over the top. > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right about the stacks but you're still missing the whole point, even if they were 20 stacks they will suck still. > > > > why? > > > > Because steal skills are actually **SKILLS** and not conditions/boons thing that Anet tried to do with Deadeye. > > > > I'll say this again dude, yes in WvW you can basically perma stealth and throw your conditions or whatever you want from 1500 range and people will just die. > > > > In PvP is a bit different, if you face bad players you will beat them whatever you're using I think that's the same for WvW but if you're actually against good players then these stolen skills are useless, a single condition and a single boon. No damage No skill No advantage against the other class, nothing. Just a single condition and boon. > > > > > > > > Nobody in PvP willl ever user peripheral vision even if they increase the range to 10000000, because it's bad. > > > > > > > > This and the mark being a cast time are the two major flaws of this spec, against **any** dp dash thief even the worst of them you will have problems, why? because steal is instant and when they steal you they gain stealth instead of fury and blind. > > > > The same for other classes, guardian you do poison man poison... and get aegis kitten but if you steal a guardian you gain a 3s daze and a damage skill. > > > > > > No one will use given skills in PvP NOT because the skill bad but because PVP is an artificial environmnet where the number of players are limited and the game built around taking capture points. > > > > > > It is why virtiually every thief in PvP uses SB as an off hand weapon. That virtually every thief takes SB does not mean it the best weapon out there for a thief. It only means in that constructed environment it provides the best mobility for a thief to fulfill his very narrowly defined role. > > > > > > Please tell me how Throw Gunk helped a thief in PvP. > > > Please tell me how healing Seed helped a thief in PvP. > > > > > > That these skills were little used or had little effect hardly meant a thief could not Pvp. That these skills were little used or had little effect still saw the meta for power thief in Pvp taking Improv. > > > > > > I have already stated that the stolen skill from thief was underwhelming compared to the old but a NUMBER of the stolen skills, as you yourself admit are BETTER in the new then the old. You can not get protection with the old skills. You can get DAZE off pistol 4. I sort of like what protection can do for me.I like being able to get resistance from a steal as there no other real source. How is it you can complain on one hand that Boons do a thief little good and than on the other acknowledge that Consume plasma is the most OP of the old stolen skills? > > > > > > Read my first post to you on this matter. I clearly stated you were understating the effects of the skills you listed. Getting the number of stacks wrong was exactly that and once again in your bit on the stolen warrior skill you indicated 5 stacks might would make the skill fine when it was already five stacks. So I am asking for consistency here. How can stealing a boon be Ok if it 5 stacks might but now not ok because it 5 stacks might? > > > > > > Lastly complaining that even if 20 stacks of a given condition applied it would suck. > > > > > > Why? The ultimate purpose of using a skill is to down and kill an enemy. What do you think will apply more damage towards acheiving that goal? > > > > > > 20 stacks of bleed. > > > a 3 second daze off the stolen Guardian skill. > > > Chill and a few k damage off ice shard stab. > > > An Etheral field via thrown gunk. > > > > > > > > > Now just as the new steal has a cast time SO do all of those old stolen skills. Those old skills could be blocked or avoided , the difference being the old skills were two phased (first the steal which could be dodged or blocked and then the use of the skill itself which outside a small handful could be dodged or blocked) while the new skills one phased in that you must dodg the steal. > > > > > > > I stopped reading when you said healing seed doesn't help thief in PvP. > > We play different game modes that's why we're both biased but I respect your opinion and if you think the stolen skills are alright then fine. > > You stop reading a lot when someones opinion does not match your own. That does not demonstrate a respect for anothers opinion. I read all o f your posts even if I do not agree with all of what you say. No, I've read all your posts and to me they don't make any sense because you play WvW and I play PvP. I stopped reading your last comment after you said healing seed doesn't help thief in pvp. I'd love if you come to any pvp server I'll get some top players so you can duel them and you will see what I mean when I say these stolen skills are useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asur.9178 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 New stolen skills are trash - most of deadeye is trash. Rifle is garbage and only works with low tier players. This was pointed out immediately after demo publicly by numerous people...including myself. ANet just didn't care to fix it. Even ignoring all the other problems, the stolen skills would need significant changes to have any kind of comparative capabilities to the core ones - PvE, PvP, and WvW. They also barely tickle their targets at best with their pathetic damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 > @Asur.9178 said: > New stolen skills are trash - most of deadeye is trash. Rifle is garbage and only works with low tier players. This was pointed out immediately after demo publicly by numerous people...including myself. ANet just didn't care to fix it. > > Even ignoring all the other problems, the stolen skills would need significant changes to have any kind of comparative capabilities to the core ones - PvE, PvP, and WvW. They also barely tickle their targets at best with their pathetic damage. Yes, generating 3k+ bleed ticks just off a stolen skil> @Elxdark.9702 said: > Hi guys, I'd like to discuss the idea behind the stolen skills from Deadeye, address why most of them are so bad in comparison to the steal stolen skills and how to change them to make them compete against the steal skills. > I think the idea behind these stolen skils is a good idea, implemented really poorly but it's a good idea overall. Right you gain a boon/effect, a tiny damage amount and you throw a condition but the execution as I have said it's simple and poorly. I like the idea of the duration increase per malice though. > The goal of this thread is not to make them beyond op or broken but to make them **compete** against steal stolen skills. > > If you haven't seen my other thread where I talk about the Deadeye spec you can comment here: > [Deadeye Elite Discussion](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/5664/deadeye-pvp-needed-changes "Deadeye Elite Discussion") > TL;DR, for that thread it's pretty much improve the malice generation rate, make mark instant and decay over time, also some buffs/changes to the trait line and rifle. > > With that in mind I'll proceed to explain my own idea about stolen skills and try to make them **compete** against steal skills. > > # Thief > * **Steal Precision** > Gain fury and blind your marked target. Duration increases for each malice stack. > Damage: 67 > Fury (6s): 20% Critical Chance > Blind (6s): Next outgoing attack misses. > Duration Increase: 20% > Maximum Count: 2 > Range: 1,500 > > Really? a 20s cd if traited only gives you a blind and fury, you don't really need the fury because thieves have a lot of ways to get it also you have Perfectionist as well. > I'm not going to talk about that damage, actually I don't consider it damage. > > * _Blinding Tuft > Throw a handful of hair, vanishing in stealth and blinding nearby foes. > Blind (3s): Next outgoing attack misses. > Stealth (3s): Invisible to foes. > Number of Targets: 5 > Range: 120_ > > This is much better in every way, yes it has a cast time but it's actually **useful** against the class you're facing up. > > * **Steal Precision** > **Gain stealth and reveal your marked target. Duration increases for each malice stack. > Stealth (3s): Invisible to foes. > Reveal (3s): You cannot stealth. > Duration Increase: 20% > Maximum Count: 2 > Range: 1,500** > > Removed blind, fury and damage, added stealth and reveal. This is actually useful against thieves as stolen skills should be, only the stealth increases per malice. > > # Guardian > * **Steal Defenses** > Gain aegis and poison your marked target. Duration increases for each malice stack. > Damage: 67 > Aegis (5s): Block the next incoming attack. > Poison (8s): 536 Damage, -33% Healing Effectiveness > Duration Increase: 20% > Maximum Count: 2 > Range: 1,500 > > Aegis and poison??? Seriously Anet come on you could think a bit more, incredibly useless stolen skill. > > * _Mace Head Crack > Daze your foe. > Damage: 266 (1.0)? > Daze: 3s > Range: 170_ > > I can't even compare these two, I mean one gives you 0 damage aegis and poison while the other gives you good damage and a daze for 3s. > > * **Steal Defenses** > **Gain protection and heal yourself. Duration increases for each malice stack. > Protection (6s): -33% Incoming Damage. > Healing: X amount > Healing Increase: 10% > Duration Increase: 20% > Maximum Count: 2 > Range: 1,500** > > I think this fits way more the guardian class, I know your idea about these stolen skills is that they give you something and you throw something but in some classes like guardian it makes much more sense to give you **DEFENSES** instead of tiny amount of damage and useless conditions. > > # Warrior > * **Steal Strength** > Gain might and weaken your marked target. Duration increases for each malice stack. > Damage: 67 > Might (8s): +30 Power, +30 Condition Damage > Weakness (8s): -50% Endurance Regeneration, 50% Fumble (Unrestricted) > Duration Increase: 20% > Maximum Count: 2 > Range: 1,500 > > Ok fine, this one is decent. Weakness is always welcome but the 1 stack might is kind of useless it would have a lot better if it was 5-10 might stacks. > > * _Whirling Axe > Spin and attack nearby foes. You can move while spinning. > Damage: 80 (0.3)? > Number of Attacks: 15 > Combo Finisher: Whirl > Range: 1,200_ > > Good stolen skill, does a fair amount of damage and useful against projectiles also a combo finisher too, still much better than the deadeye stolen skill. > > * **Steal Strength** > **Gain stability and stun your marked target. Duration increases for each malice stack. > Damage: X > Stability (2s): Cannot be knocked down, pushed back, pulled, launched, stunned, dazed, floated, sunk, feared or taunted. > Stun : 1s > Duration Increase: 20% > Maximum Count: 2 > Range: 1,500** > > While this may be op in certain situations I think with the amount of spellbreakers this is pretty fair and it **makes sense** I think the idea behind stolen skills is that they give you someting **useful** against the class you steal from, Deadeye stolen skills don't do that and that's why they are worse than steal skills. > Damage is X but it needs to be actual **damage** and not the hilarious thing you put in the stolen skills. > > # Revenant > * **Steal Resistance** > Gain resistance and apply torment on your marked target. Duration increases for each malice stack. > Damage: 67 > Resistance (3s): Conditions currently on you are ineffective; stacks duration. > Torment (8s): 176 Damage, 254 Damage if Moving > Duration Increase: 20% > Maximum Count: 2 > Range: 1,500 > > Resistance is good, torment isn't. It's only 1 torment which is nothing. > > * _Essence Sap > Throw energy at your target, slowing them. > Damage: 399 (1.5)? > Slow (1s): Skills and actions are slower. > Range: 900_ > > Much better stolen skill, not only because it does good damage but it also slows the target. > > * **Steal Resistance > Gain resistance and apply slow on your marked target. Duration increases for each malice stack. > Damage: X > Resistance (3s): Conditions currently on you are ineffective; stacks duration. > Slow (2s): Skills and actions are slower. > Duration Increase: 20% > Maximum Count: 2 > Range: 1,500** > > Slightly changes, removed torment and added slow. I see you wanted to make this stolen skill condition based because the steal one is power so I'll follow with your idea but this will be hybrid so the damage needs to be decent. > > # Elementalist > * **Steal Warmth** > Gain vigor and chill your marked target. Duration increases for each malice stack. > Damage: 67 > Vigor (10s): +50% Endurance Regeneration > Chilled (3s): -66% Skill Recharge Rate, -66% Movement Speed > Duration Increase: 20% > Maximum Count: 2 > Range: 1,500 > > This is actually a good stolen ability it just needs to do **DAMAGE**. > > * **Steal Warmth > Gain shocking aura and chill your marked target. Duration increases for each malice stack. > Damage: X > Shocking Aura (2s): Stun nearby attacking foes with an electric shock > Chilled (6s): -66% Skill Recharge Rate, -66% Movement Speed > Duration Increase: 20% > Maximum Count: 2 > Range: 1,500** > > But I do have another idea for it. I think shocking aura fits perfectly the ele stolen skill. Increased chill duration from 3s to 6s. Also, it needs to do damage. > > # Mesmer > * **Steal Time** > Gain quickness and slow your marked target. Duration increases for each malice stack. > Damage: 67 > Quickness (2s): Skills and actions are faster. > Slow (2s): Skills and actions are slower. > Duration Increase: 20% > Maximum Count: 2 > Range: 1,500 > > Another good stolen skill, it feels weaker than steal because plasma is beyond op and they keep buffing it for some reason. > > * _Consume Plasma > Gain all boons._ > > It's just insane, and the fact you can make it x2 with improvisation it makes look the deadeye stolen skill a lot worse. > > * **Steal Time > Gain chaos armor and remove 2 boons from your marked target. Duration increases for each malice stack. > Damage: X > Chaos Armor (3s): Apply a random condition to nearby foes and gain chaos armor. Chaos armor gives you random boons and your foe random conditions whenever you are struck. > Boons removed: 2 > Duration Increase: 20% > Maximum Count: 2 > Range: 1,500** > > Pretty useful right? And it's not op as the steal stolen skill it gives you an advantage that you need to use in order to beat your opponent. > > # Necromancer > * **Steal Health** > Heal yourself and bleed your marked target. Healing amount and duration increases for each malice stack. > Damage: 67 > Healing: 1,290 (0.1)? > Bleeding (8s): 880 Damage > Healing Increase: 10% > Duration Increase: 20% > Maximum Count: 2 > Range: 1,500 > > Not bad it could be better but it doesn't fit the necromancer class at all. > > * _Skull Fear > Strike fear into nearby foes. > Fear 0 to 200 Distance (2s): Involuntary retreat; unable to act; stacks duration. > Fear 200 to 400 Distance (1½s): Involuntary retreat; unable to act; stacks duration. > Fear 400 to 600 Distance (1s): Involuntary retreat; unable to act; stacks duration. > Unblockable > Range: 600_ > > Really good stolen skill that makes sense with the class and pretty useful in most situations. > > * **Steal Health** > **Gain resistance and transfer conditions to your marked target. Duration increases for each malice stack. > Damage: X > Resistance (3s): Conditions currently on you are ineffective; stacks duration. > Conditions Transferred: 3 > Duration Increase: 20% > Maximum Count: 2 > Range: 1,500** > > Resistance is always good against necros and you will transfer your conditions to them. > Neat. > > # Ranger > * **Steal Mobility** > Gain superspeed and immobilize your marked target. Duration increases for each malice stack. > Damage: 67 > superspeed: 3 > Immobilize (1s): Unable to move. > Duration Increase: 20% > Maximum Count: 2 > Range: 1,500 > > Probably the best stolen skill from Deadeye. > > * _Healing Seed > Grants regeneration and removes conditions from yourself and nearby allies. > Regen (3s): 390 Heal > Radius: 240 > Combo Field: Water_ > > One of the best stolen skills from steal, even with the cd nerf it's really good. > > * **Steal Mobility** > **Gain superspeed and immobilize your marked target. Duration increases for each malice stack. > Damage: X > superspeed: 3 > Immobilize (1s): Unable to move. > Duration Increase: 20% > Maximum Count: 2 > Range: 1,500** > > Just need to do damage. > > # Engineer > * **Steal Durability** > Gain protection and apply vulnerability on your marked target. Duration increases for each malice stack. > Damage: 67 > Protection (5s): -33% Incoming Damage > Vulnerability (5s): 10% Incoming Damage, 10% Incoming Condition Damage > Duration Increase: 20% > Maximum Count: 2 > Range: 1,500 > > Again another good stolen skill but it needs to do **damage**. > > * _Throw Gunk > Throw gunk at target area to inflict a random condition. > Damage (6x): 480 (1.8)? > Number of Targets: 5 > Radius: 120 > Combo Field: Ethereal > Range: 900_ > > Underrated stolen skill but it does a good amount of damage and it's a combo field. > > * **Steal Durability** > **Gain superspeed and apply cripple on your marked target. Duration increases for each malice stack. > Damage: X > Superspeed : 3 > Crippled (10s): -50% Movement Speed > Duration Increase: 20% > Maximum Count: 2 > Range: 1,500** > > Simple but effective, gain superspeed and apply cripple, also **damage**. > > So that's probably all I have to talk about stolen skills, as I said I like the idea that the duration of conditions and boons increase while you have more malice but the skills lack of diversity and thought. > Most of them are straightly awful in comparison to steal stolen skills and some of them are balanced, they don't even do damage which is really bad along with their useless conditions, they don't really give you anything to fight back. > I know it's a large post but it isn't a wall text, I just tried to compare all the stolen skills and comment my own changes. > Hope you guys read it and also if you want to read my changes on the Deadeye spec I linked it above. Every one of your proposals increases the effectiveness of the stolen skills for power builds at the expense of Condition builds. The Daredevil spec line already favors Power in its traits > Out of all the traits only Impaling Lotus directly favors condition builds over power. All of the others either benefit both build types or power directly. The DE spec is much the same with most of the traits favoring Power. There are a few traits that help condition but what DOES make this line usable by a condition build is the conditions provided by the current stolen skills. Every single change you made removes those damaging conditions so as to add conditions that favor power builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asur.9178 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 > @babazhook.6805 said: > Yes, generating 3k+ bleed ticks just off a stolen skil > > Every one of your proposals increases the effectiveness of the stolen skills for power builds at the expense of Condition builds. > > The Daredevil spec line already favors Power in its traits > Out of all the traits only Impaling Lotus directly favors condition builds over power. All of the others either benefit both build types or power directly. > > The DE spec is much the same with most of the traits favoring Power. There are a few traits that help condition but what DOES make this line usable by a condition build is the conditions provided by the current stolen skills. Every single change you made removes those damaging conditions so as to add conditions that favor power builds. Thanks for the laughter. Condi builds...on the current DE. Tells me a lot about your ability in the game. That's all I have to say...not like I did not expect such a post from you based on everything I've seen you write in these forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 > @Asur.9178 said: > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > Yes, generating 3k+ bleed ticks just off a stolen skil > > Every one of your proposals increases the effectiveness of the stolen skills for power builds at the expense of Condition builds. > > > > The Daredevil spec line already favors Power in its traits > Out of all the traits only Impaling Lotus directly favors condition builds over power. All of the others either benefit both build types or power directly. > > > > The DE spec is much the same with most of the traits favoring Power. There are a few traits that help condition but what DOES make this line usable by a condition build is the conditions provided by the current stolen skills. Every single change you made removes those damaging conditions so as to add conditions that favor power builds. > > Thanks for the laughter. That's all I have to say...not like I did not expect such a post from you based on everything I've seen you write in these forums. All I see from you is crying In each and every thread. I do not expect anything less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asur.9178 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 > @babazhook.6805 said: > All I see from you is crying In each and every thread. I do not expect anything less. Sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now