[Ideas/discussion]Smaller size living world map but more repeatable contents.

[Mrbob.4531]

First of all, I would like to apologize for my English, for its not my first language.

 

 

**Problem**

I feel that the effort that Anet put into an expansion size map is not really worth it. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy and like those map, but we can't deny that the map lose it population after a couple of weeks (unless it have a repeatable content, like branded shatter or profitable content like istan). As new living world episode come out the population is being spread thinner and thinner. Players move on to new map, all of the talents and effort that Anet put on the old map become wasted. Ofc, the ideas that I'm about to suggests will not 100% fix the populations spread problem, but it can at least slow it down.

 

 

**Suggestion**

Creating smaller map for each episode, to allow for more time to develop repeatable contents. those contents would be Reputation system, 5-man map dungeon/ meta event.

 

 

**Heart Reputation** (borrow from wow reputation system/ replacing repeatable heart)

How this would work is that each vendor will now have a reputation tier associate with them instead of repeatable heart.

Unlocking new tier on the each vendors will open up new tap on that vendor - this new tap would sell mini, armor/weapon skins, recipe, etc.

After gaining max reputations rank on each vendors on that map, players is reward with amount skin/ map currency/ map enrichment(karma/xp)/ cheeky title.

players gain reputation by doing events around that specific heart.

 

 

**Dungeon**

Most people would argue that why do we need dungeon when we have fractal, and that is a very valid point. but to most new players, fractal system is some what complicate and intimidating, and most veteran players only do t4 daily and go afk somewhere after they are done.

So my suggestion would be a living world map's small 5-man dungeon where it tell a side story (ie. Zafirah's journey to round up troops for that final instance in All or Nothing, Braham journey from Hoelbrak to istan ) - This could just be just one path and somewhat challenging, players is reward with map currency, potential rare drop in term of minis, weapons or armor skins, back skins, materials need for new stats type.

Anet could alternating map with dungeon and map with meta event to allow for breathing room.

 

 

*Hopefully, by reducing the amount of work being done toward an expansion size map, these suggestions are able to fit in with the release schedule that we currently have (alternating between fractals/raid release)

 

 

**Final thought **

I believe that something like this would help retain people from leaving the contents/game after the first 2 week of it release.

Please leave you thought and discussion on why this would or would not work.

 

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Could work if the same Devs that create map assets also create events/dungeons/side-stories, etc.

[kharmin.7683]

I would like optional repeatable content. I don't always want do re-do a heart quest just to be able to talk with the vendor.

[BlueJin.4127]

I absolutely despised rep grinding in WoW. I do not want to be forced to redo the same hearts every day for weeks.

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

Kind of depends if making maps is resource extensive compared to making content. If it’s not then making maps smaller won’t make a difference to the ability to improve content.

[zombyturtle.5980]

I definitely like the idea of having map rep over doing the same heart over and over. This system is already in place in dry top. It would have to reset daily rather than hourly though.

 

Id also love dungeons, but I dont see anet working on those unfortunately.

[Ganathar.4956]

There are some okay ideas here but I do not agree with the suggestion to make smaller maps. If anything it would be better if they made much bigger maps. They could take the Dry Top model and expand on it by making every new map contain 3 episodes of living world. It starts with the size of a standard LW map, but with every additional episode it expands until it is 3x bigger than many of the current LW maps. This would provide more longevity to the content. Not only because you would be in the same map for 3 episodes, but also because one big map would divide the player base less while providing the same amount of content as 3 maps. So this would be nice for the long term health of the game too.

[Pifil.5193]

> @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> Could work if the same Devs that create map assets also create events/dungeons/side-stories, etc.

 

Yep, but I doubt that the environmental artists who make the maps are the same people that design and implement content.

 

I also don't see a huge drop off in players on older maps, I always see players in the older maps whenever I go there. There are fewer instances of those maps in the megaserver system but I never seem to get put on an unpopulated map.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

> @"Pifil.5193" said:

> > @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> > Could work if the same Devs that create map assets also create events/dungeons/side-stories, etc.

>

> Yep, but I doubt that the environmental artists who make the maps are the same people that design and implement content.

>

> I also don't see a huge drop off in players on older maps, I always see players in the older maps whenever I go there. There are fewer instances of those maps in the megaserver system but I never seem to get put on an unpopulated map.

 

Exactly my point.

[Pifil.5193]

> @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> > @"Pifil.5193" said:

> > > @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> > > Could work if the same Devs that create map assets also create events/dungeons/side-stories, etc.

> >

> > Yep, but I doubt that the environmental artists who make the maps are the same people that design and implement content.

> >

> > I also don't see a huge drop off in players on older maps, I always see players in the older maps whenever I go there. There are fewer instances of those maps in the megaserver system but I never seem to get put on an unpopulated map.

>

> Exactly my point.

 

Sorry, I understood that you knew that I was just trying to reinforce the point for those who don't get it because some people seem to think of "the devs" as interchangeable cogs in a big machine. :smile:

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Alas, they are not.

[MoriMoriMori.5349]

> @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> I definitely like the idea of having map rep over doing the same heart over and over. This system is already in place in dry top. It would have to reset daily rather than hourly though.

>

> Id also love dungeons, but I dont see anet working on those unfortunately.

 

Why people willingly want to re-do "hearts" is beyond my understanding. 95% of them is boring mindless grind fest ala "kill some mobs arround" or "hit the F key close to that object". I find it hard to do them even once myself. Events are times more fun, and if anything, reputation should be tied to those. But simply making players to re-do them is crappy idea, it would be just boring mindless grind this way. If they really need it to become worth replaying, they need to add more variety to them, i.e. more random factors which change the same old event significantly, similar to instabilities in fractals. So you could meet different mobs with different skills in the same event, and have some variety of objectives too.

[Mrbob.4531]

> @"BlueJin.4127" said:

> I absolutely despised rep grinding in WoW. I do not want to be forced to redo the same hearts every day for weeks.

 

But here is why its does't force you to grind like WoW, non of the QoL is being lock behind the rep system (assuming that you hate wow rep grind because you want to unlock flying mount). What I'm suggesting is not just doing heart, throwing a crystal at a dummy for 3 mins will not give you rep toward the vendor, I'm saying that events like defending a gate, escorting caravan, defending a mobs, etc will work toward you reputation. We also have bounties system, finishing bounty could be another ways to work toward the rep.

 

> @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> Could work if the same Devs that create map assets also create events/dungeons/side-stories, etc.

 

The Devs could definitely reuse a lot of asset from fractals, old dungeons (if that still usable), open world mobs, living story bosses, even raids.

This could potentially allow the more casual players to experiences somel mechanics from fractals, and raids.

 

> @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> There are some okay ideas here but I do not agree with the suggestion to make smaller maps. If anything it would be better if they made much bigger maps. They could take the Dry Top model and expand on it by making every new map contain 3 episodes of living world. It starts with the size of a standard LW map, but with every additional episode it expands until it is 3x bigger than many of the current LW maps. This would provide more longevity to the content. Not only because you would be in the same map for 3 episodes, but also because one big map would divide the player base less while providing the same amount of content as 3 maps. So this would be nice for the long term health of the game too.

 

I would definitely welcome that idea. anything that would make the map more active.

 

 

> @"Pifil.5193" said:

 

> I also don't see a huge drop off in players on older maps, I always see players in the older maps whenever I go there. There are fewer instances of those maps in the megaserver system but I never seem to get put on an unpopulated map.

 

True, But that is mostly due passive play (players only do event as they passing by it), players don't actively seeking out to do events. Not a lot of people do Serpents' Ire anymore nor people go out of their way to fix that leaky pipes in Amnoon. What I'm suggesting is a way to utilize the assets like dynamic event a bit more, give players an incentive to do them.

 

 

[Rasimir.6239]

Let me see if I understand this right. Instead of the (mostly short and painless to do) repeatable hearts we go back to one-time hearts like we see them in Core Tyria, only now it takes ages longer to finish the heart, so people stay on the map for a long while. To make this seem more bearable, the items offered by the heart vendor are broken into different groups that become available at different completion steps of said heart (but still require a lot more involvement to reach than the current repeatable hearts, or else the content locusts would be off the map even quicker than now). Is that about what you had in mind?

 

Personally I love the repeatable heart system precisely because it doesn't force me to hang around the map for weeks and weeks and weeks just to get to the vendor I'm interested in. If there's anything I want from a heart vendor (e.g. I have enough map currency to buy their mini) I can jump in, play a little on the map around the heart (many of which can be done just by playing events nearby), then get what I came for and be happy. No need to come back to the same map and do the same tasks day in and day out just to have a chance at opening up the vendor, but straight forward gameplay.

 

Turning the hearts non-repeatable but forcing everyone to invest a lot more time/grind to finish each one will not make a difference to the content locusts that grind out all skins, minis, and achievements as soon as they can anyway, but it will make things a lot more grindy for those of us who prefer to choose the content we want to play on the basis of what we enjoy doing.

 

Besides I'm not sure your "problem" actually exists in the first place. At least my experience suggests that it really doesn't. I rarely play content in the week or two after release, as I'd rather have all the "me first" people out of the way so I can enjoy the map and story, and I can't remember any situations where I've felt the map was too empty to enjoy the game. I've gotten most of my achievements, my drops for different collections and whatever else I could've wanted well after the inital rush was over, and it was never a problem to get things done. I strongly suspect you're trying to fix a problem that doesn't really exist.

[Tsan.6431]

Yep ... i'm more extremist : no more new maps please ! Add events, contents and dungeons on (HoT) PoF maps (extension & L.S), like L.S season 1)

[Mrbob.4531]

> @"Rasimir.6239" said:

> Let me see if I understand this right. Instead of the (mostly short and painless to do) repeatable hearts we go back to one-time hearts like we see them in Core Tyria, only now it takes ages longer to finish the heart, so people stay on the map for a long while. To make this seem more bearable, the items offered by the heart vendor are broken into different groups that become available at different completion steps of said heart (but still require a lot more involvement to reach than the current repeatable hearts, or else the content locusts would be off the map even quicker than now). Is that about what you had in mind?

>

> Personally I love the repeatable heart system precisely because it doesn't force me to hang around the map for weeks and weeks and weeks just to get to the vendor I'm interested in. If there's anything I want from a heart vendor (e.g. I have enough map currency to buy their mini) I can jump in, play a little on the map around the heart (many of which can be done just by playing events nearby), then get what I came for and be happy. No need to come back to the same map and do the same tasks day in and day out just to have a chance at opening up the vendor, but straight forward gameplay.

>

 

ah right, that what I'm getting at, Sure if you put it that ways its sound horrible, but more involvement from the players doesn't sound too bad. If all we do is farm map currency, why not just have a node near the npc so that you can just mine it daily, do the repeatable heart and move on. why even create the events around the maps if no one really do them after the first weeks.

edit: if you want a mini, put in the effort to get the mini, you want the armor collection put some effort into unlocking it, why does everything have to be handed to you.

 

> Turning the hearts non-repeatable but forcing everyone to invest a lot more time/grind to finish each one will not make a difference to the content locusts that grind out all skins, minis, and achievements as soon as they can anyway, but it will make things a lot more grindy for those of us who prefer to choose the content we want to play on the basis of what we enjoy doing.

>

> Besides I'm not sure your "problem" actually exists in the first place. At least my experience suggests that it really doesn't. I rarely play content in the week or two after release, as I'd rather have all the "me first" people out of the way so I can enjoy the map and story, and I can't remember any situations where I've felt the map was too empty to enjoy the game. I've gotten most of my achievements, my drops for different collections and whatever else I could've wanted well after the inital rush was over, and it was never a problem to get things done. I strongly suspect you're trying to fix a problem that doesn't really exist.

 

Its probably because I'm part of content locusts that you're referring to. Give a reason so that peoples come back to the map even now and then, do something like world completion where you can progress it at you own pace.

 

 

[Balsa.3951]

No hearts plz this constant Djing sound when I pass by.... I feel maps already have a lot replay with those grind stuff in it perhaps Anet can refresh maps by *current events so that those maps don’t become obsolete in time

[Mrbob.4531]

> @"Balsa.3951" said:

> No hearts plz this constant Djing sound when I pass by.... I feel maps already have a lot replay with those grind stuff in it perhaps Anet can refresh maps by *current events so that those maps don’t become obsolete in time

 

yup, that's the goal right, to not have all the talents and resources go to waste. The map definitely have the replayability to it, but most doesn't have the incentive for the people to do them.

[Rasimir.6239]

> @"Mrbob.4531" said:

> > @"Balsa.3951" said:

> > No hearts plz this constant Djing sound when I pass by.... I feel maps already have a lot replay with those grind stuff in it perhaps Anet can refresh maps by *current events so that those maps don’t become obsolete in time

>

> yup, that's the goal right, to not have all the talents and resources go to waste. The map definitely have the replayability to it, but most doesn't have the incentive for the people to do them.

 

What would you consider incentive to play a map? And how would a non-repeatable heart keep people that play/grind determinedly through every new content on a map without turning off those of us that prefer to choose their own carrot to chase?

[Mrbob.4531]

> @"Rasimir.6239" said:

> > @"Mrbob.4531" said:

> > > @"Balsa.3951" said:

> > > No hearts plz this constant Djing sound when I pass by.... I feel maps already have a lot replay with those grind stuff in it perhaps Anet can refresh maps by *current events so that those maps don’t become obsolete in time

> >

> > yup, that's the goal right, to not have all the talents and resources go to waste. The map definitely have the replayability to it, but most doesn't have the incentive for the people to do them.

>

> What would you consider incentive to play a map? And how would a non-repeatable heart keep people that play/grind determinedly through every new content on a map without turning off those of us that prefer to choose their own carrot to chase?

 

A non brain dead content. A content where i have to do more than walking around pressing F, A content where you are reward base on the time you invested in.

What does a repeatable heart give? an extra daily thing you can do to get map currency?

If I'm not mistaken, you point being that you don't want another arbitrary time gate to get your carrot. You are okay with running around the map collecting currency nodes, or do the same task around the heart npc so that you can buy currency from them, get your rewards and move on.

 

Edit: What i suggested still allow you to pick and choose your own carrot, but now you can do more than just collecting nodes, the map have so many events that no one do them, and why should they? its does't work toward anything, its give you gold, exp, and karma and that it.

[Randulf.7614]

I'd prefer larger chunks of episodes more spaced out. 2-3 maps, nice chunk of story linking them all. That would give plenty of content to last months. I think they pigeon hole themselves with a formula that must have 1 map, some map use and 2-3 instances rather than trying to tell a story the way the story needs it to. It all feels like they're trying to shoehorn an abridgement of something which could be so much more.

[hugo.4705]

The thing we need is bigger maps and rewarding contents. Let's simply imagine a map with a portail destroyed that require you to beat the world bosses present in the two other adjacent maps ( i mean REAL world bosses requiring coordination like TT, Tequalt or Tarir with the corresponding rewards of course) that give you enough to repair that portail and gaining access to the fourth map. In the fourth map you would have several quests sending you back in core maps / hot ones or pof ones.

 

Whereas maybe completing the achievs wouldn't keep players that long, that interesting rewarding farm will catch them.

In that game, a map is only interesting if you can farm it sadly.

 

Also why not really reward player? I mean we could have thing like ascended materials (elonian leather, bolts....)

More stories etc to find within maps...

Or like SW, a map that require to build up with tiers and more rewards with the last one... something that worth investing yourself, clovers, bl keys..... mystic coins?

 

I really think we should have more racial Personnal story steps to do after lvl80.

[kratan.4619]

The whole thread basically sounds like wanting a new farm. That is all that repeatable content that is rewarding seems to become, see SW.

[Rasimir.6239]

> @"Mrbob.4531" said:

> > @"Rasimir.6239" said:

> > > @"Mrbob.4531" said:

> > > > @"Balsa.3951" said:

> > > > No hearts plz this constant Djing sound when I pass by.... I feel maps already have a lot replay with those grind stuff in it perhaps Anet can refresh maps by *current events so that those maps don’t become obsolete in time

> > >

> > > yup, that's the goal right, to not have all the talents and resources go to waste. The map definitely have the replayability to it, but most doesn't have the incentive for the people to do them.

> >

> > What would you consider incentive to play a map? And how would a non-repeatable heart keep people that play/grind determinedly through every new content on a map without turning off those of us that prefer to choose their own carrot to chase?

>

> A non brain dead content. A content where i have to do more than walking around pressing F, A content where you are reward base on the time you invested in.

> What does a repeatable heart give? an extra daily thing you can do to get map currency?

> If I'm not mistaken, you point being that you don't want another arbitrary time gate to get your carrot. You are okay with running around the map collecting currency nodes, or do the same task around the heart npc so that you can buy currency from them, get your rewards and move on.

>

> Edit: What i suggested still allow you to pick and choose your own carrot, but now you can do more than just collecting nodes, the map have so many events that no one do them, and why should they? its does't work toward anything, its give you gold, exp, and karma and that it.

What you fail to acknowledge is that most if not all hearts can already be organically filled while playing events in the heart area. That's the way I finish hearts (both one-time and repeatable) most of the time. The "play events around maps" playstyle you try to force onto hearts with your idea already exists, but contrary to your idea it's not the only way to get things done but just one of several different ways.

 

You prefer to beeline to a specific reward by farming the path of least resistance. I can see how that is boring and renders maps "useless" to you pretty soon. I prefer to explore maps, play events I come across, and generally enjoy myself in game. This game is awesome in that my playstyle is just as viable as yours, and will get me to the same rewards as yours, just in a different way (one that is vastly more enjoyable to myself than the "farm this if you want that reward" playstyle we know from most other MMOs).

 

This game has a ton of "non brain dead content", but it's up to you if you take it up on it or grind out your carrots in a "brain dead" manner because "efficiency" in gathering in-game reards is more important to you than enjoyment of the content you play. Your suggestion forces the grind on everyone instead of leaving it as a choice as it is now.