Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > I would absolutely take the less random version for game balance every time. Yes you would, that's kind of the point. Knowing what you will get back means you can prepare for it. Your opponent can too. Improvisation tends to mean that you are working with the unexpected. A thief basing you and then suddenly being able to basi you again is less expected and more likely to abruptly change the thief's rotation and yours once you see the venom tile pop back up. I think that randomness is more exciting and in keeping with the trait's name. Also added a note on Daggerstorm to the prior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TorQ.7041 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > 14 [Dagger Storm](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dagger_Storm "Dagger Storm") > > > > > > > > > > > > > Overall I'm okay with Daggerstorm but there are two aspects I specifically hate; the fact that Improvisation recharges this and the random projectiles that shoot off of it. With Improvisation, you always end up in a fight against that one thief who is running the double steal trait alongside the recharge a skilltype trait and gets Daggerstorm recharged each steal equaling three Daggerstorms spammed back to back and you just can't handle that and die and he says "GG EZ." EVERY time. Also if the counter play is to get away from the thief as they're daggerstorming, I shouldn't have to deal with getting pelted by the random projectiles as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. > > > > > > > > > > > > Improvisation has 20 second ICD so you never get any CD reset from your reseted Steal. > > > > > > > > > > > > I permanently see people claiming that due to SE thieves are getting resets so much. Not true, not possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Daggerstorm > Steal > Recharge Daggerstorm > 20 seconds later when steal is off cooldown > steal again and dagger storm. That's easily potential daggerstorms within the span of a pretty realistic duration fight. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The recharge is random. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's the _problem_. I actually can't believe how many people are defending pure RNG so vehemently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure dagger storm is a bit strong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't say that. I specifically talked about the random interactions of the skill, specifically it's interaction with Improvisation and the projectiles. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Literally all I said was I hate the randomness of improvisation and the random projectiles. That's it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warrior and spellbreaker are the builds I have the second most amount of play time on, totaling 1,501 games at the moment. Landing magebane tether is not hard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's funny how you quickly you go around, putting words in my mouth I didn't say, accuse me of not multiclassing and completely and deliberately misinterpret a part of my post to prove your point. You sure do seem like a big tough guy, knocking all those men made of straw down. > > > > > > > > > > > > Landing thether is not hard when there's lots of aoe sure. But in a 1v1 which is where the warrior should be. Don't hit into full counter? Like seriously...it's not hard to see a warrior has fc up and just wait it out. Also even if it hits. It can pull you. Ok. But it's not game ending, it does a whooping 300 dmg at most. Wow that's so much dmg. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's seriously not overpowered what so ever and no one is complaining about warrior at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > **Yes I am assuming you either don't muti class or you don't play them at a high ranked level other than your main.** Since you are specifically complaining about skills that work against your main which seems to be Condi mirage. Things from Condi removal to Condi dmg. And I think your opinion is unfairly biased. > > > > > > As with every single post you make. Just like others have pointed out here > > > > > > > > > > Well you know what they say about assumptions. Again, 1500 games on warrior. > > > > > > > > > > You still can't even admit "Maybe having a random utility type recharged on steal is level of randomness that in general is unhealthy for a PvP game mode." I thought we all hated RNG based stuff they've spent years culling out of the game bit by bit as well as all the passive automatic saves like Endure Pain and the old version of Automatic Elixir S. And yet I'm the biased one when you keep putting words in my mouth, accusing me of saying things I never said and advocated for things I didn't advocate for. > > > > > > > > > > If you step back and look at your own biases, the fact that Condition Mirage and Scourge are the _only_ viable condition damage builds, and 7/9 other classes run power almost exclusively points towards _something_ being broken about the power level discrepancy between power and condition damage builds not involving necromancer and mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > My general thoughts have been for a while that all condition kits on all classes should have their primary spread of damaging conditions condensed into 1-2 conditions as well as limiting the spread of nondamaging conditions. The way all condition classes should look should be similar to a condition firebrand, if you've tried it. They don't have a lot of conditions, just lots of burning and a bit of bleeding. And so when they fire an opponent they don't hit you with a brick wall of every condition in the game, but they ramp up burning and up and up. 1 stack, 3 stacks, 7 stacks, 12 stacks, 18 stacks. Unfortunately, with how cleanses cleanses are power crept their damage out put just doesn't stick to anything you'll see running around in ranked right now. I think on a philosophical level condition damage classes including mirage, should operate like this and condition cleanses should be toned down so that this type of play is competitive with power damage. > > > > > > > > > > The things in my OP don't impact mirage they impact every build in the game that goes up against them. > > > > > > > > Thank God anet does not agree with that ever is cooking in your mind. Because they nerfed the kitten out of Condi mirage. > > > > > > > > I am so happy they Nerf the kitten out of it. Good riddance. > > > > > > > > You basically want gameplay that involves consistently lacing people with Condi. With out the ability to cleanse. This makes no sense because PvP is based around holding nodes. A scourge putting circles on the node makes it impossible to play with out cleanse. > > > > > > > > You just want brain dead builds like the previous mirage where you get to apply conditions limitlessly. While having the ability to avoid damage through stealth, detarget and invunrs. It is the most braindead build there is. You literally just cycle through buttons. And because there's not much Condi cleanse with other classes they ever die or are forced to leave. Except for prot holo. Thanks God for prot holo killing braindead Condi builds like the previous Condi mirage > > > > > > > > Braindead builds like that get nerfed and it rightly did. > > > > > > You must be a real hoot at parties. And you call me biased and emotional. > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 14 [Dagger Storm](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dagger_Storm "Dagger Storm") > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Overall I'm okay with Daggerstorm but there are two aspects I specifically hate; the fact that Improvisation recharges this and the random projectiles that shoot off of it. With Improvisation, you always end up in a fight against that one thief who is running the double steal trait alongside the recharge a skilltype trait and gets Daggerstorm recharged each steal equaling three Daggerstorms spammed back to back and you just can't handle that and die and he says "GG EZ." EVERY time. Also if the counter play is to get away from the thief as they're daggerstorming, I shouldn't have to deal with getting pelted by the random projectiles as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Improvisation has 20 second ICD so you never get any CD reset from your reseted Steal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I permanently see people claiming that due to SE thieves are getting resets so much. Not true, not possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Daggerstorm > Steal > Recharge Daggerstorm > 20 seconds later when steal is off cooldown > steal again and dagger storm. That's easily potential daggerstorms within the span of a pretty realistic duration fight. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The recharge is random. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's the _problem_. I actually can't believe how many people are defending pure RNG so vehemently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure dagger storm is a bit strong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't say that. I specifically talked about the random interactions of the skill, specifically it's interaction with Improvisation and the projectiles. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Literally all I said was I hate the randomness of improvisation and the random projectiles. That's it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warrior and spellbreaker are the builds I have the second most amount of play time on, totaling 1,501 games at the moment. Landing magebane tether is not hard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's funny how you quickly you go around, putting words in my mouth I didn't say, accuse me of not multiclassing and completely and deliberately misinterpret a part of my post to prove your point. You sure do seem like a big tough guy, knocking all those men made of straw down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Landing thether is not hard when there's lots of aoe sure. But in a 1v1 which is where the warrior should be. Don't hit into full counter? Like seriously...it's not hard to see a warrior has fc up and just wait it out. Also even if it hits. It can pull you. Ok. But it's not game ending, it does a whooping 300 dmg at most. Wow that's so much dmg. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's seriously not overpowered what so ever and no one is complaining about warrior at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Yes I am assuming you either don't muti class or you don't play them at a high ranked level other than your main.** Since you are specifically complaining about skills that work against your main which seems to be Condi mirage. Things from Condi removal to Condi dmg. And I think your opinion is unfairly biased. > > > > > > > As with every single post you make. Just like others have pointed out here > > > > > > > > > > > > Well you know what they say about assumptions. Again, 1500 games on warrior. > > > > > > > > > > > > You still can't even admit "Maybe having a random utility type recharged on steal is level of randomness that in general is unhealthy for a PvP game mode." I thought we all hated RNG based stuff they've spent years culling out of the game bit by bit as well as all the passive automatic saves like Endure Pain and the old version of Automatic Elixir S. And yet I'm the biased one when you keep putting words in my mouth, accusing me of saying things I never said and advocated for things I didn't advocate for. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you step back and look at your own biases, the fact that Condition Mirage and Scourge are the _only_ viable condition damage builds, and 7/9 other classes run power almost exclusively points towards _something_ being broken about the power level discrepancy between power and condition damage builds not involving necromancer and mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > > > My general thoughts have been for a while that all condition kits on all classes should have their primary spread of damaging conditions condensed into 1-2 conditions as well as limiting the spread of nondamaging conditions. The way all condition classes should look should be similar to a condition firebrand, if you've tried it. They don't have a lot of conditions, just lots of burning and a bit of bleeding. And so when they fire an opponent they don't hit you with a brick wall of every condition in the game, but they ramp up burning and up and up. 1 stack, 3 stacks, 7 stacks, 12 stacks, 18 stacks. Unfortunately, with how cleanses cleanses are power crept their damage out put just doesn't stick to anything you'll see running around in ranked right now. I think on a philosophical level condition damage classes including mirage, should operate like this and condition cleanses should be toned down so that this type of play is competitive with power damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > The things in my OP don't impact mirage they impact every build in the game that goes up against them. > > > > > > > > > > While desperately trying to appear as a saint...claiming your "balance" ideology comes from your multiclass "expertise"....you have an elite mesmer design proposal in your signature, you may want to remove that before going back to your "unbiased" balance crusades ...amusing as they are to read > > > > > > > > I think there is no point talkinig to this guy. We need to just ignore people like this. Anet is not gonna take anything he says seriously anyway. Since it doesn't reflect actual data. > > > > > > > > Like when the entire community knew the pervious mirage was busted. **He was all like na.** > > > > > > [sure I was. ](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/818151/#Comment_818151 "Sure I was. ") > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > I'm just going to start off saying I appreciate your more measured suggestions compared to your direct response to a certain streamer. > > > > > > > > I really like your suggested changes to Deceptive Decoy, a trait I hate both the idea as a percentage based save and also it's in game impact. More often than not I feel like the most it does for me during a match is interrupt my stomp attempts. I want something completely different in it's place. I think rolling it into Distortion is a good way to keep it value neutral while giving players control over it, the way I liked the idea of warrior's Defy Pain trait turning Endure Pain into a 2 charge ammo skill. > > > > > > > > I also really like your idea for Infinite Horizons as well. One of the things I've noticed is that not only can you just play defensively with infinite Horizons while doing damage, if you do turn around and use an ambush at the tail end of the ambush window you've created a 2 second window of nonstop attacks being thrown at the enemy player. A single ambush attack shouldn't really be creating that long of a danger period. Having one key moment where even with Infinite Horizon any ambush attack could be completely dodged would make it feel far less oppressive I think. And it hinders that more defensive play style where you can just kite and still get so much damage with clones so it's a very solid suggestion. > > > > > > > > In terms of changes I want to see these are the main ones these suggestions are all stuff I've written earlier so some stuff is a little incompatible with your suggestions. > > > > > > > > **Mirage Cloak No Longer Works while Stunned, Knocked Back, Launched, or floated. Elusive Mind does something else entirely.** > > > > I mean come on, it's been over a year now and everyone know this is a toxic behavior especially mesmers since it's inception. > > > > > > > > I know for a fact it can't be a coding problem because in the engine there are tons of moments where even as a mirage you are actually stunned and prevented from dodging like in raid bosses and on certain story steps. It's a deliberate choice by the developers to keep it this way. > > > > > > > > **Deceptive Evasion** > > > > Clones Spawned by Deceptive Evasion no longer spawn automatically doing their Ambush attack with Infinite Horizon. > > > > It's a fun trait synergy, but I think it's too much with Infinite Horizon. Infinite Horizon rewards spawning and maintaining three clones at once, and with all the AoE and cleave spilling around is actually somewhat difficult. But the investment in having and maintaining clones is undercut when a dodge roll doesn't just spawn a clone, but also automatically gives you the damage is putting too much into the value of one dodge even for Mirage. Deceptive Evasion is fine, but they shouldn't ambush until the Mirage Cloak after they initially spawn. This directly impacts the chaos variant of mirage, with it's gradual but much higher sustained condition damage and 1v1 potential. > > > > > > > > Like I said, some stuff is incompatible with a few of your changes. I think your proposed change to Infinite Horizon makes this mute, anyway. > > > > > > > > **Cry of Pain** > > > > Cry of Pain has been reverted back to Illusionary Retribution and instead of two additional stack of confusion per shatter with Cry of Frustration just apply 1 confusion per shatter for all of their shatter skills. > > > > I think a lot of people really missed how much this trait impacted Mesmer in PvP. Just a refresher for those not in the know, it used to be Illusionary Retribution, which had all shatter skills apply confusion on shatter until the phantasm rework. The end result is that a 3 Clone Mind Wrack or Distraction would both apply 4 stacks of confusion, and a three clone Cry of Frustration would apply 8 stacks of confusion. However, during the Phantasm rework last February they switched it so that it now gives Cry of Frustration 2 additional stacks of confusion, front loading ALL of the Mesmer's potential Confusion shatter output into just one shatter. Now Cry of Frustration on it's own if it lands is 12 stacks of confusion just right there and that doesn't even count Blinding Disipation+Ineptitude. And cry of Frustration's confusion stacks last 33% longer. This made Illusions condi mirage FAR burstier than it had been previously. This along side confusion being altered to do almost no damage per second and all of it's damage on skill activation is why suddenly condition mirages were melting people so, so hard after the phantasm rework. > > > > > > > > I'm personally fine with confusion doing large amounts of damage on skill activation, I like it from both a game play and flavor perspective, but Cry of Pain front loads too much. Cry of Frustration should clearly be a condition mesmer's bread and butter, but spreading the condition application out so that it requires more successful comboing of shatters to reap the benefits of it would be much healthier than what we have now. > > > > > > > > I know Chaos is currently favored right now, but make no mistake Illusions is also very strong and it wouldn't take too much nerfing to make people primarily run Illusions and when they do I think this change will be important. > > > > > > > > **Axes of Symmetry** > > > > I think your choice for a nerf is okay. > > > > > > > > Personally I would just nerf the confusion stacks to PvE levels (Three from Player for those not in the know), remove the detarget. Bump the cooldown up to 15 seconds base 12 seconds traited maybe a bit more so it's not 100% a certainty that it will be up every weapon swap. > > > > > > > > **Jaunt** > > > > I actually want to damage and condition removed from this skill. I know a lot of mesmers poke fun at a certain streamer for him talking about it doing "FOUR THINGS!" and I know Jaunt isn't exactly blowing people up anymore (2k crits on Power Mirage at POF release were hilarious though. I sniped a lot of kills with that). I just philosophically dislike and disagree with instant cast damage like this and would rather see the damage gone just from a philosophical level. Keep condition cleanse, movement and it's lack of true stunbreak, revert it back to 3 ammo with a 20 second cooldown again after this. > > > > > > > > After that, I really don't want too much else touched until condition cleanses and condition damage spreads are normalized at which point I would have a ton of changes I would like to see with mesmer and mirage in specific. I've gone into this topic enough times so I'm not going to copy and paste it again here as this post is still loo long. Like I would personally prefer to see all classes including mesmers only really have Confusion and Torment as their primary damaging conditions and for condition damage to actually be a thing where you build up damage stacks on enemies over time bit by bit 1 stack, 2 stacks, 5 stacks, 7 stacks, 10 stacks, and up and up. But with how over tuned condition cleanses with a majority of classes are being able to shake of 5+ conditions repeatedly over the course of a fight, unless you shot gun someone with 3 damaging conditions and three covering conditions they're functionally indestructible. It's why only condition mirage and condition scourge are even viable now. Mirage has so much variety in damaging stacks and cover conditions, and scourge has a solid variety and access to potentially all conditions through boon corrupt. > > > > > > > > In general I would prefer mesmers of all stripes to win matches more through their unique team and solo utility rather than their ability to slam down kills. Stuff like Portal, Illusion of Life, Null Field, Arcane Thievery, Signet of Humility and Mass invisibility should be lynchpins of mesmer success across all builds in ranked and AT. But Portal was nerfed and everything else interesting is outright bad aside from Arcane Thievery. It should be a cerebral high skill cap class. But portal was nerfed so condition slammer it is I guess. > > > > > > > > I really want something done with out Elite Skills that aren't jaunt. Like Mass Invisibility, Signet of Humility and Time Warp. The toolbelt skill for engineer's Elixir S is a 5 second stealth so it's just as long as Mass Invis, it's has a 75% faster cast time and 66% faster cooldown and it's always going to be run traited. The only thing Mass Invisibility has over it is that the pulse is in a wide area around the mesmer which when you want to stealth an ally like to prevent a stomp or something isn't even that helpful compared to how freaking fast Toss Elixir S is and how much more useful the extremely fast cast time is. Like I know classes are going to have inherent symmetries and that you can't always compare X skill or trait to Y skill or trait, but really why is the engineer bonus for picking an already best in slot utility skill a better version of one of our elites in literally every way that matters? > > > > > > You literally cannot stop making things up about me. And that's just one thread! Even a cursory glance would show tons of suggested nerfs to mirage over the months in most threads about the build. And you couldn't be bothered to look and instead decided to just make things up about me. > > > > Yup totally truth death to Condi message. Nerf Nerf Nerf! > > That's pretty much the queue not to read/take seriously anything _you_ say. As in, you keep spitting bullkitten, making up stuff that OP proves you wrong on, so you've nothing left but some flippant last words (above). > > Also, it's clear you simply want condition damage deleted from the game (as if it's widely viable now). Sounds like you just want to nerf what kills you and you dislike. Much like what you and others accuse OP of. Yup totally. Excatly what I meant Nerf Nerf nerf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted March 26, 2019 Author Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 14 [Dagger Storm](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dagger_Storm "Dagger Storm") > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Overall I'm okay with Daggerstorm but there are two aspects I specifically hate; the fact that Improvisation recharges this and the random projectiles that shoot off of it. With Improvisation, you always end up in a fight against that one thief who is running the double steal trait alongside the recharge a skilltype trait and gets Daggerstorm recharged each steal equaling three Daggerstorms spammed back to back and you just can't handle that and die and he says "GG EZ." EVERY time. Also if the counter play is to get away from the thief as they're daggerstorming, I shouldn't have to deal with getting pelted by the random projectiles as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Improvisation has 20 second ICD so you never get any CD reset from your reseted Steal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I permanently see people claiming that due to SE thieves are getting resets so much. Not true, not possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Daggerstorm > Steal > Recharge Daggerstorm > 20 seconds later when steal is off cooldown > steal again and dagger storm. That's easily potential daggerstorms within the span of a pretty realistic duration fight. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The recharge is random. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's the _problem_. I actually can't believe how many people are defending pure RNG so vehemently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure dagger storm is a bit strong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't say that. I specifically talked about the random interactions of the skill, specifically it's interaction with Improvisation and the projectiles. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Literally all I said was I hate the randomness of improvisation and the random projectiles. That's it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warrior and spellbreaker are the builds I have the second most amount of play time on, totaling 1,501 games at the moment. Landing magebane tether is not hard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's funny how you quickly you go around, putting words in my mouth I didn't say, accuse me of not multiclassing and completely and deliberately misinterpret a part of my post to prove your point. You sure do seem like a big tough guy, knocking all those men made of straw down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Landing thether is not hard when there's lots of aoe sure. But in a 1v1 which is where the warrior should be. Don't hit into full counter? Like seriously...it's not hard to see a warrior has fc up and just wait it out. Also even if it hits. It can pull you. Ok. But it's not game ending, it does a whooping 300 dmg at most. Wow that's so much dmg. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's seriously not overpowered what so ever and no one is complaining about warrior at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Yes I am assuming you either don't muti class or you don't play them at a high ranked level other than your main.** Since you are specifically complaining about skills that work against your main which seems to be Condi mirage. Things from Condi removal to Condi dmg. And I think your opinion is unfairly biased. > > > > > > > As with every single post you make. Just like others have pointed out here > > > > > > > > > > > > Well you know what they say about assumptions. Again, 1500 games on warrior. > > > > > > > > > > > > You still can't even admit "Maybe having a random utility type recharged on steal is level of randomness that in general is unhealthy for a PvP game mode." I thought we all hated RNG based stuff they've spent years culling out of the game bit by bit as well as all the passive automatic saves like Endure Pain and the old version of Automatic Elixir S. And yet I'm the biased one when you keep putting words in my mouth, accusing me of saying things I never said and advocated for things I didn't advocate for. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you step back and look at your own biases, the fact that Condition Mirage and Scourge are the _only_ viable condition damage builds, and 7/9 other classes run power almost exclusively points towards _something_ being broken about the power level discrepancy between power and condition damage builds not involving necromancer and mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > > > My general thoughts have been for a while that all condition kits on all classes should have their primary spread of damaging conditions condensed into 1-2 conditions as well as limiting the spread of nondamaging conditions. The way all condition classes should look should be similar to a condition firebrand, if you've tried it. They don't have a lot of conditions, just lots of burning and a bit of bleeding. And so when they fire an opponent they don't hit you with a brick wall of every condition in the game, but they ramp up burning and up and up. 1 stack, 3 stacks, 7 stacks, 12 stacks, 18 stacks. Unfortunately, with how cleanses cleanses are power crept their damage out put just doesn't stick to anything you'll see running around in ranked right now. I think on a philosophical level condition damage classes including mirage, should operate like this and condition cleanses should be toned down so that this type of play is competitive with power damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > The things in my OP don't impact mirage they impact every build in the game that goes up against them. > > > > > > > > > > Thank God anet does not agree with that ever is cooking in your mind. Because they nerfed the kitten out of Condi mirage. > > > > > > > > > > I am so happy they Nerf the kitten out of it. Good riddance. > > > > > > > > > > You basically want gameplay that involves consistently lacing people with Condi. With out the ability to cleanse. This makes no sense because PvP is based around holding nodes. A scourge putting circles on the node makes it impossible to play with out cleanse. > > > > > > > > > > You just want brain dead builds like the previous mirage where you get to apply conditions limitlessly. While having the ability to avoid damage through stealth, detarget and invunrs. It is the most braindead build there is. You literally just cycle through buttons. And because there's not much Condi cleanse with other classes they ever die or are forced to leave. Except for prot holo. Thanks God for prot holo killing braindead Condi builds like the previous Condi mirage > > > > > > > > > > Braindead builds like that get nerfed and it rightly did. > > > > > > > > You must be a real hoot at parties. And you call me biased and emotional. > > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 14 [Dagger Storm](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dagger_Storm "Dagger Storm") > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Overall I'm okay with Daggerstorm but there are two aspects I specifically hate; the fact that Improvisation recharges this and the random projectiles that shoot off of it. With Improvisation, you always end up in a fight against that one thief who is running the double steal trait alongside the recharge a skilltype trait and gets Daggerstorm recharged each steal equaling three Daggerstorms spammed back to back and you just can't handle that and die and he says "GG EZ." EVERY time. Also if the counter play is to get away from the thief as they're daggerstorming, I shouldn't have to deal with getting pelted by the random projectiles as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Improvisation has 20 second ICD so you never get any CD reset from your reseted Steal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I permanently see people claiming that due to SE thieves are getting resets so much. Not true, not possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Daggerstorm > Steal > Recharge Daggerstorm > 20 seconds later when steal is off cooldown > steal again and dagger storm. That's easily potential daggerstorms within the span of a pretty realistic duration fight. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The recharge is random. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's the _problem_. I actually can't believe how many people are defending pure RNG so vehemently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure dagger storm is a bit strong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't say that. I specifically talked about the random interactions of the skill, specifically it's interaction with Improvisation and the projectiles. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Literally all I said was I hate the randomness of improvisation and the random projectiles. That's it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warrior and spellbreaker are the builds I have the second most amount of play time on, totaling 1,501 games at the moment. Landing magebane tether is not hard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's funny how you quickly you go around, putting words in my mouth I didn't say, accuse me of not multiclassing and completely and deliberately misinterpret a part of my post to prove your point. You sure do seem like a big tough guy, knocking all those men made of straw down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Landing thether is not hard when there's lots of aoe sure. But in a 1v1 which is where the warrior should be. Don't hit into full counter? Like seriously...it's not hard to see a warrior has fc up and just wait it out. Also even if it hits. It can pull you. Ok. But it's not game ending, it does a whooping 300 dmg at most. Wow that's so much dmg. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's seriously not overpowered what so ever and no one is complaining about warrior at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Yes I am assuming you either don't muti class or you don't play them at a high ranked level other than your main.** Since you are specifically complaining about skills that work against your main which seems to be Condi mirage. Things from Condi removal to Condi dmg. And I think your opinion is unfairly biased. > > > > > > > > As with every single post you make. Just like others have pointed out here > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well you know what they say about assumptions. Again, 1500 games on warrior. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You still can't even admit "Maybe having a random utility type recharged on steal is level of randomness that in general is unhealthy for a PvP game mode." I thought we all hated RNG based stuff they've spent years culling out of the game bit by bit as well as all the passive automatic saves like Endure Pain and the old version of Automatic Elixir S. And yet I'm the biased one when you keep putting words in my mouth, accusing me of saying things I never said and advocated for things I didn't advocate for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you step back and look at your own biases, the fact that Condition Mirage and Scourge are the _only_ viable condition damage builds, and 7/9 other classes run power almost exclusively points towards _something_ being broken about the power level discrepancy between power and condition damage builds not involving necromancer and mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My general thoughts have been for a while that all condition kits on all classes should have their primary spread of damaging conditions condensed into 1-2 conditions as well as limiting the spread of nondamaging conditions. The way all condition classes should look should be similar to a condition firebrand, if you've tried it. They don't have a lot of conditions, just lots of burning and a bit of bleeding. And so when they fire an opponent they don't hit you with a brick wall of every condition in the game, but they ramp up burning and up and up. 1 stack, 3 stacks, 7 stacks, 12 stacks, 18 stacks. Unfortunately, with how cleanses cleanses are power crept their damage out put just doesn't stick to anything you'll see running around in ranked right now. I think on a philosophical level condition damage classes including mirage, should operate like this and condition cleanses should be toned down so that this type of play is competitive with power damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The things in my OP don't impact mirage they impact every build in the game that goes up against them. > > > > > > > > > > > > While desperately trying to appear as a saint...claiming your "balance" ideology comes from your multiclass "expertise"....you have an elite mesmer design proposal in your signature, you may want to remove that before going back to your "unbiased" balance crusades ...amusing as they are to read > > > > > > > > > > I think there is no point talkinig to this guy. We need to just ignore people like this. Anet is not gonna take anything he says seriously anyway. Since it doesn't reflect actual data. > > > > > > > > > > Like when the entire community knew the pervious mirage was busted. **He was all like na.** > > > > > > > > [sure I was. ](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/818151/#Comment_818151 "Sure I was. ") > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > I'm just going to start off saying I appreciate your more measured suggestions compared to your direct response to a certain streamer. > > > > > > > > > > I really like your suggested changes to Deceptive Decoy, a trait I hate both the idea as a percentage based save and also it's in game impact. More often than not I feel like the most it does for me during a match is interrupt my stomp attempts. I want something completely different in it's place. I think rolling it into Distortion is a good way to keep it value neutral while giving players control over it, the way I liked the idea of warrior's Defy Pain trait turning Endure Pain into a 2 charge ammo skill. > > > > > > > > > > I also really like your idea for Infinite Horizons as well. One of the things I've noticed is that not only can you just play defensively with infinite Horizons while doing damage, if you do turn around and use an ambush at the tail end of the ambush window you've created a 2 second window of nonstop attacks being thrown at the enemy player. A single ambush attack shouldn't really be creating that long of a danger period. Having one key moment where even with Infinite Horizon any ambush attack could be completely dodged would make it feel far less oppressive I think. And it hinders that more defensive play style where you can just kite and still get so much damage with clones so it's a very solid suggestion. > > > > > > > > > > In terms of changes I want to see these are the main ones these suggestions are all stuff I've written earlier so some stuff is a little incompatible with your suggestions. > > > > > > > > > > **Mirage Cloak No Longer Works while Stunned, Knocked Back, Launched, or floated. Elusive Mind does something else entirely.** > > > > > I mean come on, it's been over a year now and everyone know this is a toxic behavior especially mesmers since it's inception. > > > > > > > > > > I know for a fact it can't be a coding problem because in the engine there are tons of moments where even as a mirage you are actually stunned and prevented from dodging like in raid bosses and on certain story steps. It's a deliberate choice by the developers to keep it this way. > > > > > > > > > > **Deceptive Evasion** > > > > > Clones Spawned by Deceptive Evasion no longer spawn automatically doing their Ambush attack with Infinite Horizon. > > > > > It's a fun trait synergy, but I think it's too much with Infinite Horizon. Infinite Horizon rewards spawning and maintaining three clones at once, and with all the AoE and cleave spilling around is actually somewhat difficult. But the investment in having and maintaining clones is undercut when a dodge roll doesn't just spawn a clone, but also automatically gives you the damage is putting too much into the value of one dodge even for Mirage. Deceptive Evasion is fine, but they shouldn't ambush until the Mirage Cloak after they initially spawn. This directly impacts the chaos variant of mirage, with it's gradual but much higher sustained condition damage and 1v1 potential. > > > > > > > > > > Like I said, some stuff is incompatible with a few of your changes. I think your proposed change to Infinite Horizon makes this mute, anyway. > > > > > > > > > > **Cry of Pain** > > > > > Cry of Pain has been reverted back to Illusionary Retribution and instead of two additional stack of confusion per shatter with Cry of Frustration just apply 1 confusion per shatter for all of their shatter skills. > > > > > I think a lot of people really missed how much this trait impacted Mesmer in PvP. Just a refresher for those not in the know, it used to be Illusionary Retribution, which had all shatter skills apply confusion on shatter until the phantasm rework. The end result is that a 3 Clone Mind Wrack or Distraction would both apply 4 stacks of confusion, and a three clone Cry of Frustration would apply 8 stacks of confusion. However, during the Phantasm rework last February they switched it so that it now gives Cry of Frustration 2 additional stacks of confusion, front loading ALL of the Mesmer's potential Confusion shatter output into just one shatter. Now Cry of Frustration on it's own if it lands is 12 stacks of confusion just right there and that doesn't even count Blinding Disipation+Ineptitude. And cry of Frustration's confusion stacks last 33% longer. This made Illusions condi mirage FAR burstier than it had been previously. This along side confusion being altered to do almost no damage per second and all of it's damage on skill activation is why suddenly condition mirages were melting people so, so hard after the phantasm rework. > > > > > > > > > > I'm personally fine with confusion doing large amounts of damage on skill activation, I like it from both a game play and flavor perspective, but Cry of Pain front loads too much. Cry of Frustration should clearly be a condition mesmer's bread and butter, but spreading the condition application out so that it requires more successful comboing of shatters to reap the benefits of it would be much healthier than what we have now. > > > > > > > > > > I know Chaos is currently favored right now, but make no mistake Illusions is also very strong and it wouldn't take too much nerfing to make people primarily run Illusions and when they do I think this change will be important. > > > > > > > > > > **Axes of Symmetry** > > > > > I think your choice for a nerf is okay. > > > > > > > > > > Personally I would just nerf the confusion stacks to PvE levels (Three from Player for those not in the know), remove the detarget. Bump the cooldown up to 15 seconds base 12 seconds traited maybe a bit more so it's not 100% a certainty that it will be up every weapon swap. > > > > > > > > > > **Jaunt** > > > > > I actually want to damage and condition removed from this skill. I know a lot of mesmers poke fun at a certain streamer for him talking about it doing "FOUR THINGS!" and I know Jaunt isn't exactly blowing people up anymore (2k crits on Power Mirage at POF release were hilarious though. I sniped a lot of kills with that). I just philosophically dislike and disagree with instant cast damage like this and would rather see the damage gone just from a philosophical level. Keep condition cleanse, movement and it's lack of true stunbreak, revert it back to 3 ammo with a 20 second cooldown again after this. > > > > > > > > > > After that, I really don't want too much else touched until condition cleanses and condition damage spreads are normalized at which point I would have a ton of changes I would like to see with mesmer and mirage in specific. I've gone into this topic enough times so I'm not going to copy and paste it again here as this post is still loo long. Like I would personally prefer to see all classes including mesmers only really have Confusion and Torment as their primary damaging conditions and for condition damage to actually be a thing where you build up damage stacks on enemies over time bit by bit 1 stack, 2 stacks, 5 stacks, 7 stacks, 10 stacks, and up and up. But with how over tuned condition cleanses with a majority of classes are being able to shake of 5+ conditions repeatedly over the course of a fight, unless you shot gun someone with 3 damaging conditions and three covering conditions they're functionally indestructible. It's why only condition mirage and condition scourge are even viable now. Mirage has so much variety in damaging stacks and cover conditions, and scourge has a solid variety and access to potentially all conditions through boon corrupt. > > > > > > > > > > In general I would prefer mesmers of all stripes to win matches more through their unique team and solo utility rather than their ability to slam down kills. Stuff like Portal, Illusion of Life, Null Field, Arcane Thievery, Signet of Humility and Mass invisibility should be lynchpins of mesmer success across all builds in ranked and AT. But Portal was nerfed and everything else interesting is outright bad aside from Arcane Thievery. It should be a cerebral high skill cap class. But portal was nerfed so condition slammer it is I guess. > > > > > > > > > > I really want something done with out Elite Skills that aren't jaunt. Like Mass Invisibility, Signet of Humility and Time Warp. The toolbelt skill for engineer's Elixir S is a 5 second stealth so it's just as long as Mass Invis, it's has a 75% faster cast time and 66% faster cooldown and it's always going to be run traited. The only thing Mass Invisibility has over it is that the pulse is in a wide area around the mesmer which when you want to stealth an ally like to prevent a stomp or something isn't even that helpful compared to how freaking fast Toss Elixir S is and how much more useful the extremely fast cast time is. Like I know classes are going to have inherent symmetries and that you can't always compare X skill or trait to Y skill or trait, but really why is the engineer bonus for picking an already best in slot utility skill a better version of one of our elites in literally every way that matters? > > > > > > > > You literally cannot stop making things up about me. And that's just one thread! Even a cursory glance would show tons of suggested nerfs to mirage over the months in most threads about the build. And you couldn't be bothered to look and instead decided to just make things up about me. > > > > > > Yup totally truth death to Condi message. Nerf Nerf Nerf! > > > > That's pretty much the queue not to read/take seriously anything _you_ say. As in, you keep spitting bullkitten, making up stuff that OP proves you wrong on, so you've nothing left but some flippant last words (above). > > > > Also, it's clear you simply want condition damage deleted from the game (as if it's widely viable now). Sounds like you just want to nerf what kills you and you dislike. Much like what you and others accuse OP of. > > Yup totally. Excatly what I meant Nerf Nerf nerf I'm personally surprised you have the gall to pop back in here after how hard I exposed you last time for lying about me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TorQ.7041 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 14 [Dagger Storm](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dagger_Storm "Dagger Storm") > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Overall I'm okay with Daggerstorm but there are two aspects I specifically hate; the fact that Improvisation recharges this and the random projectiles that shoot off of it. With Improvisation, you always end up in a fight against that one thief who is running the double steal trait alongside the recharge a skilltype trait and gets Daggerstorm recharged each steal equaling three Daggerstorms spammed back to back and you just can't handle that and die and he says "GG EZ." EVERY time. Also if the counter play is to get away from the thief as they're daggerstorming, I shouldn't have to deal with getting pelted by the random projectiles as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Improvisation has 20 second ICD so you never get any CD reset from your reseted Steal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I permanently see people claiming that due to SE thieves are getting resets so much. Not true, not possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Daggerstorm > Steal > Recharge Daggerstorm > 20 seconds later when steal is off cooldown > steal again and dagger storm. That's easily potential daggerstorms within the span of a pretty realistic duration fight. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The recharge is random. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's the _problem_. I actually can't believe how many people are defending pure RNG so vehemently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure dagger storm is a bit strong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't say that. I specifically talked about the random interactions of the skill, specifically it's interaction with Improvisation and the projectiles. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Literally all I said was I hate the randomness of improvisation and the random projectiles. That's it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warrior and spellbreaker are the builds I have the second most amount of play time on, totaling 1,501 games at the moment. Landing magebane tether is not hard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's funny how you quickly you go around, putting words in my mouth I didn't say, accuse me of not multiclassing and completely and deliberately misinterpret a part of my post to prove your point. You sure do seem like a big tough guy, knocking all those men made of straw down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Landing thether is not hard when there's lots of aoe sure. But in a 1v1 which is where the warrior should be. Don't hit into full counter? Like seriously...it's not hard to see a warrior has fc up and just wait it out. Also even if it hits. It can pull you. Ok. But it's not game ending, it does a whooping 300 dmg at most. Wow that's so much dmg. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's seriously not overpowered what so ever and no one is complaining about warrior at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Yes I am assuming you either don't muti class or you don't play them at a high ranked level other than your main.** Since you are specifically complaining about skills that work against your main which seems to be Condi mirage. Things from Condi removal to Condi dmg. And I think your opinion is unfairly biased. > > > > > > > > As with every single post you make. Just like others have pointed out here > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well you know what they say about assumptions. Again, 1500 games on warrior. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You still can't even admit "Maybe having a random utility type recharged on steal is level of randomness that in general is unhealthy for a PvP game mode." I thought we all hated RNG based stuff they've spent years culling out of the game bit by bit as well as all the passive automatic saves like Endure Pain and the old version of Automatic Elixir S. And yet I'm the biased one when you keep putting words in my mouth, accusing me of saying things I never said and advocated for things I didn't advocate for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you step back and look at your own biases, the fact that Condition Mirage and Scourge are the _only_ viable condition damage builds, and 7/9 other classes run power almost exclusively points towards _something_ being broken about the power level discrepancy between power and condition damage builds not involving necromancer and mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My general thoughts have been for a while that all condition kits on all classes should have their primary spread of damaging conditions condensed into 1-2 conditions as well as limiting the spread of nondamaging conditions. The way all condition classes should look should be similar to a condition firebrand, if you've tried it. They don't have a lot of conditions, just lots of burning and a bit of bleeding. And so when they fire an opponent they don't hit you with a brick wall of every condition in the game, but they ramp up burning and up and up. 1 stack, 3 stacks, 7 stacks, 12 stacks, 18 stacks. Unfortunately, with how cleanses cleanses are power crept their damage out put just doesn't stick to anything you'll see running around in ranked right now. I think on a philosophical level condition damage classes including mirage, should operate like this and condition cleanses should be toned down so that this type of play is competitive with power damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The things in my OP don't impact mirage they impact every build in the game that goes up against them. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank God anet does not agree with that ever is cooking in your mind. Because they nerfed the kitten out of Condi mirage. > > > > > > > > > > > > I am so happy they Nerf the kitten out of it. Good riddance. > > > > > > > > > > > > You basically want gameplay that involves consistently lacing people with Condi. With out the ability to cleanse. This makes no sense because PvP is based around holding nodes. A scourge putting circles on the node makes it impossible to play with out cleanse. > > > > > > > > > > > > You just want brain dead builds like the previous mirage where you get to apply conditions limitlessly. While having the ability to avoid damage through stealth, detarget and invunrs. It is the most braindead build there is. You literally just cycle through buttons. And because there's not much Condi cleanse with other classes they ever die or are forced to leave. Except for prot holo. Thanks God for prot holo killing braindead Condi builds like the previous Condi mirage > > > > > > > > > > > > Braindead builds like that get nerfed and it rightly did. > > > > > > > > > > You must be a real hoot at parties. And you call me biased and emotional. > > > > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 14 [Dagger Storm](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dagger_Storm "Dagger Storm") > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Overall I'm okay with Daggerstorm but there are two aspects I specifically hate; the fact that Improvisation recharges this and the random projectiles that shoot off of it. With Improvisation, you always end up in a fight against that one thief who is running the double steal trait alongside the recharge a skilltype trait and gets Daggerstorm recharged each steal equaling three Daggerstorms spammed back to back and you just can't handle that and die and he says "GG EZ." EVERY time. Also if the counter play is to get away from the thief as they're daggerstorming, I shouldn't have to deal with getting pelted by the random projectiles as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Improvisation has 20 second ICD so you never get any CD reset from your reseted Steal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I permanently see people claiming that due to SE thieves are getting resets so much. Not true, not possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Daggerstorm > Steal > Recharge Daggerstorm > 20 seconds later when steal is off cooldown > steal again and dagger storm. That's easily potential daggerstorms within the span of a pretty realistic duration fight. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The recharge is random. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's the _problem_. I actually can't believe how many people are defending pure RNG so vehemently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure dagger storm is a bit strong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't say that. I specifically talked about the random interactions of the skill, specifically it's interaction with Improvisation and the projectiles. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Literally all I said was I hate the randomness of improvisation and the random projectiles. That's it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warrior and spellbreaker are the builds I have the second most amount of play time on, totaling 1,501 games at the moment. Landing magebane tether is not hard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's funny how you quickly you go around, putting words in my mouth I didn't say, accuse me of not multiclassing and completely and deliberately misinterpret a part of my post to prove your point. You sure do seem like a big tough guy, knocking all those men made of straw down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Landing thether is not hard when there's lots of aoe sure. But in a 1v1 which is where the warrior should be. Don't hit into full counter? Like seriously...it's not hard to see a warrior has fc up and just wait it out. Also even if it hits. It can pull you. Ok. But it's not game ending, it does a whooping 300 dmg at most. Wow that's so much dmg. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's seriously not overpowered what so ever and no one is complaining about warrior at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Yes I am assuming you either don't muti class or you don't play them at a high ranked level other than your main.** Since you are specifically complaining about skills that work against your main which seems to be Condi mirage. Things from Condi removal to Condi dmg. And I think your opinion is unfairly biased. > > > > > > > > > As with every single post you make. Just like others have pointed out here > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well you know what they say about assumptions. Again, 1500 games on warrior. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You still can't even admit "Maybe having a random utility type recharged on steal is level of randomness that in general is unhealthy for a PvP game mode." I thought we all hated RNG based stuff they've spent years culling out of the game bit by bit as well as all the passive automatic saves like Endure Pain and the old version of Automatic Elixir S. And yet I'm the biased one when you keep putting words in my mouth, accusing me of saying things I never said and advocated for things I didn't advocate for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you step back and look at your own biases, the fact that Condition Mirage and Scourge are the _only_ viable condition damage builds, and 7/9 other classes run power almost exclusively points towards _something_ being broken about the power level discrepancy between power and condition damage builds not involving necromancer and mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My general thoughts have been for a while that all condition kits on all classes should have their primary spread of damaging conditions condensed into 1-2 conditions as well as limiting the spread of nondamaging conditions. The way all condition classes should look should be similar to a condition firebrand, if you've tried it. They don't have a lot of conditions, just lots of burning and a bit of bleeding. And so when they fire an opponent they don't hit you with a brick wall of every condition in the game, but they ramp up burning and up and up. 1 stack, 3 stacks, 7 stacks, 12 stacks, 18 stacks. Unfortunately, with how cleanses cleanses are power crept their damage out put just doesn't stick to anything you'll see running around in ranked right now. I think on a philosophical level condition damage classes including mirage, should operate like this and condition cleanses should be toned down so that this type of play is competitive with power damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The things in my OP don't impact mirage they impact every build in the game that goes up against them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While desperately trying to appear as a saint...claiming your "balance" ideology comes from your multiclass "expertise"....you have an elite mesmer design proposal in your signature, you may want to remove that before going back to your "unbiased" balance crusades ...amusing as they are to read > > > > > > > > > > > > I think there is no point talkinig to this guy. We need to just ignore people like this. Anet is not gonna take anything he says seriously anyway. Since it doesn't reflect actual data. > > > > > > > > > > > > Like when the entire community knew the pervious mirage was busted. **He was all like na.** > > > > > > > > > > [sure I was. ](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/818151/#Comment_818151 "Sure I was. ") > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > I'm just going to start off saying I appreciate your more measured suggestions compared to your direct response to a certain streamer. > > > > > > > > > > > > I really like your suggested changes to Deceptive Decoy, a trait I hate both the idea as a percentage based save and also it's in game impact. More often than not I feel like the most it does for me during a match is interrupt my stomp attempts. I want something completely different in it's place. I think rolling it into Distortion is a good way to keep it value neutral while giving players control over it, the way I liked the idea of warrior's Defy Pain trait turning Endure Pain into a 2 charge ammo skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > I also really like your idea for Infinite Horizons as well. One of the things I've noticed is that not only can you just play defensively with infinite Horizons while doing damage, if you do turn around and use an ambush at the tail end of the ambush window you've created a 2 second window of nonstop attacks being thrown at the enemy player. A single ambush attack shouldn't really be creating that long of a danger period. Having one key moment where even with Infinite Horizon any ambush attack could be completely dodged would make it feel far less oppressive I think. And it hinders that more defensive play style where you can just kite and still get so much damage with clones so it's a very solid suggestion. > > > > > > > > > > > > In terms of changes I want to see these are the main ones these suggestions are all stuff I've written earlier so some stuff is a little incompatible with your suggestions. > > > > > > > > > > > > **Mirage Cloak No Longer Works while Stunned, Knocked Back, Launched, or floated. Elusive Mind does something else entirely.** > > > > > > I mean come on, it's been over a year now and everyone know this is a toxic behavior especially mesmers since it's inception. > > > > > > > > > > > > I know for a fact it can't be a coding problem because in the engine there are tons of moments where even as a mirage you are actually stunned and prevented from dodging like in raid bosses and on certain story steps. It's a deliberate choice by the developers to keep it this way. > > > > > > > > > > > > **Deceptive Evasion** > > > > > > Clones Spawned by Deceptive Evasion no longer spawn automatically doing their Ambush attack with Infinite Horizon. > > > > > > It's a fun trait synergy, but I think it's too much with Infinite Horizon. Infinite Horizon rewards spawning and maintaining three clones at once, and with all the AoE and cleave spilling around is actually somewhat difficult. But the investment in having and maintaining clones is undercut when a dodge roll doesn't just spawn a clone, but also automatically gives you the damage is putting too much into the value of one dodge even for Mirage. Deceptive Evasion is fine, but they shouldn't ambush until the Mirage Cloak after they initially spawn. This directly impacts the chaos variant of mirage, with it's gradual but much higher sustained condition damage and 1v1 potential. > > > > > > > > > > > > Like I said, some stuff is incompatible with a few of your changes. I think your proposed change to Infinite Horizon makes this mute, anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > **Cry of Pain** > > > > > > Cry of Pain has been reverted back to Illusionary Retribution and instead of two additional stack of confusion per shatter with Cry of Frustration just apply 1 confusion per shatter for all of their shatter skills. > > > > > > I think a lot of people really missed how much this trait impacted Mesmer in PvP. Just a refresher for those not in the know, it used to be Illusionary Retribution, which had all shatter skills apply confusion on shatter until the phantasm rework. The end result is that a 3 Clone Mind Wrack or Distraction would both apply 4 stacks of confusion, and a three clone Cry of Frustration would apply 8 stacks of confusion. However, during the Phantasm rework last February they switched it so that it now gives Cry of Frustration 2 additional stacks of confusion, front loading ALL of the Mesmer's potential Confusion shatter output into just one shatter. Now Cry of Frustration on it's own if it lands is 12 stacks of confusion just right there and that doesn't even count Blinding Disipation+Ineptitude. And cry of Frustration's confusion stacks last 33% longer. This made Illusions condi mirage FAR burstier than it had been previously. This along side confusion being altered to do almost no damage per second and all of it's damage on skill activation is why suddenly condition mirages were melting people so, so hard after the phantasm rework. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm personally fine with confusion doing large amounts of damage on skill activation, I like it from both a game play and flavor perspective, but Cry of Pain front loads too much. Cry of Frustration should clearly be a condition mesmer's bread and butter, but spreading the condition application out so that it requires more successful comboing of shatters to reap the benefits of it would be much healthier than what we have now. > > > > > > > > > > > > I know Chaos is currently favored right now, but make no mistake Illusions is also very strong and it wouldn't take too much nerfing to make people primarily run Illusions and when they do I think this change will be important. > > > > > > > > > > > > **Axes of Symmetry** > > > > > > I think your choice for a nerf is okay. > > > > > > > > > > > > Personally I would just nerf the confusion stacks to PvE levels (Three from Player for those not in the know), remove the detarget. Bump the cooldown up to 15 seconds base 12 seconds traited maybe a bit more so it's not 100% a certainty that it will be up every weapon swap. > > > > > > > > > > > > **Jaunt** > > > > > > I actually want to damage and condition removed from this skill. I know a lot of mesmers poke fun at a certain streamer for him talking about it doing "FOUR THINGS!" and I know Jaunt isn't exactly blowing people up anymore (2k crits on Power Mirage at POF release were hilarious though. I sniped a lot of kills with that). I just philosophically dislike and disagree with instant cast damage like this and would rather see the damage gone just from a philosophical level. Keep condition cleanse, movement and it's lack of true stunbreak, revert it back to 3 ammo with a 20 second cooldown again after this. > > > > > > > > > > > > After that, I really don't want too much else touched until condition cleanses and condition damage spreads are normalized at which point I would have a ton of changes I would like to see with mesmer and mirage in specific. I've gone into this topic enough times so I'm not going to copy and paste it again here as this post is still loo long. Like I would personally prefer to see all classes including mesmers only really have Confusion and Torment as their primary damaging conditions and for condition damage to actually be a thing where you build up damage stacks on enemies over time bit by bit 1 stack, 2 stacks, 5 stacks, 7 stacks, 10 stacks, and up and up. But with how over tuned condition cleanses with a majority of classes are being able to shake of 5+ conditions repeatedly over the course of a fight, unless you shot gun someone with 3 damaging conditions and three covering conditions they're functionally indestructible. It's why only condition mirage and condition scourge are even viable now. Mirage has so much variety in damaging stacks and cover conditions, and scourge has a solid variety and access to potentially all conditions through boon corrupt. > > > > > > > > > > > > In general I would prefer mesmers of all stripes to win matches more through their unique team and solo utility rather than their ability to slam down kills. Stuff like Portal, Illusion of Life, Null Field, Arcane Thievery, Signet of Humility and Mass invisibility should be lynchpins of mesmer success across all builds in ranked and AT. But Portal was nerfed and everything else interesting is outright bad aside from Arcane Thievery. It should be a cerebral high skill cap class. But portal was nerfed so condition slammer it is I guess. > > > > > > > > > > > > I really want something done with out Elite Skills that aren't jaunt. Like Mass Invisibility, Signet of Humility and Time Warp. The toolbelt skill for engineer's Elixir S is a 5 second stealth so it's just as long as Mass Invis, it's has a 75% faster cast time and 66% faster cooldown and it's always going to be run traited. The only thing Mass Invisibility has over it is that the pulse is in a wide area around the mesmer which when you want to stealth an ally like to prevent a stomp or something isn't even that helpful compared to how freaking fast Toss Elixir S is and how much more useful the extremely fast cast time is. Like I know classes are going to have inherent symmetries and that you can't always compare X skill or trait to Y skill or trait, but really why is the engineer bonus for picking an already best in slot utility skill a better version of one of our elites in literally every way that matters? > > > > > > > > > > You literally cannot stop making things up about me. And that's just one thread! Even a cursory glance would show tons of suggested nerfs to mirage over the months in most threads about the build. And you couldn't be bothered to look and instead decided to just make things up about me. > > > > > > > > Yup totally truth death to Condi message. Nerf Nerf Nerf! > > > > > > That's pretty much the queue not to read/take seriously anything _you_ say. As in, you keep spitting bullkitten, making up stuff that OP proves you wrong on, so you've nothing left but some flippant last words (above). > > > > > > Also, it's clear you simply want condition damage deleted from the game (as if it's widely viable now). Sounds like you just want to nerf what kills you and you dislike. Much like what you and others accuse OP of. > > > > Yup totally. Excatly what I meant Nerf Nerf nerf > > I'm personally surprised you have the gall to pop back in here after how hard I exposed you last time for lying about me. Yes I feel so exposed. You totally got me. You are so right every class needs to be nerfed except your fav mesmer build which should be rebuffed. You are right. Happy now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TorQ.7041 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > 14 [Dagger Storm](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dagger_Storm "Dagger Storm") > > > > > > > > > > > > > Overall I'm okay with Daggerstorm but there are two aspects I specifically hate; the fact that Improvisation recharges this and the random projectiles that shoot off of it. With Improvisation, you always end up in a fight against that one thief who is running the double steal trait alongside the recharge a skilltype trait and gets Daggerstorm recharged each steal equaling three Daggerstorms spammed back to back and you just can't handle that and die and he says "GG EZ." EVERY time. Also if the counter play is to get away from the thief as they're daggerstorming, I shouldn't have to deal with getting pelted by the random projectiles as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. > > > > > > > > > > > > Improvisation has 20 second ICD so you never get any CD reset from your reseted Steal. > > > > > > > > > > > > I permanently see people claiming that due to SE thieves are getting resets so much. Not true, not possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Daggerstorm > Steal > Recharge Daggerstorm > 20 seconds later when steal is off cooldown > steal again and dagger storm. That's easily potential daggerstorms within the span of a pretty realistic duration fight. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The recharge is random. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's the _problem_. I actually can't believe how many people are defending pure RNG so vehemently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure dagger storm is a bit strong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't say that. I specifically talked about the random interactions of the skill, specifically it's interaction with Improvisation and the projectiles. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Literally all I said was I hate the randomness of improvisation and the random projectiles. That's it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warrior and spellbreaker are the builds I have the second most amount of play time on, totaling 1,501 games at the moment. Landing magebane tether is not hard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's funny how you quickly you go around, putting words in my mouth I didn't say, accuse me of not multiclassing and completely and deliberately misinterpret a part of my post to prove your point. You sure do seem like a big tough guy, knocking all those men made of straw down. > > > > > > > > > > > > Landing thether is not hard when there's lots of aoe sure. But in a 1v1 which is where the warrior should be. Don't hit into full counter? Like seriously...it's not hard to see a warrior has fc up and just wait it out. Also even if it hits. It can pull you. Ok. But it's not game ending, it does a whooping 300 dmg at most. Wow that's so much dmg. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's seriously not overpowered what so ever and no one is complaining about warrior at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > **Yes I am assuming you either don't muti class or you don't play them at a high ranked level other than your main.** Since you are specifically complaining about skills that work against your main which seems to be Condi mirage. Things from Condi removal to Condi dmg. And I think your opinion is unfairly biased. > > > > > > As with every single post you make. Just like others have pointed out here > > > > > > > > > > Well you know what they say about assumptions. Again, 1500 games on warrior. > > > > > > > > > > You still can't even admit "Maybe having a random utility type recharged on steal is level of randomness that in general is unhealthy for a PvP game mode." I thought we all hated RNG based stuff they've spent years culling out of the game bit by bit as well as all the passive automatic saves like Endure Pain and the old version of Automatic Elixir S. And yet I'm the biased one when you keep putting words in my mouth, accusing me of saying things I never said and advocated for things I didn't advocate for. > > > > > > > > > > If you step back and look at your own biases, the fact that Condition Mirage and Scourge are the _only_ viable condition damage builds, and 7/9 other classes run power almost exclusively points towards _something_ being broken about the power level discrepancy between power and condition damage builds not involving necromancer and mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > My general thoughts have been for a while that all condition kits on all classes should have their primary spread of damaging conditions condensed into 1-2 conditions as well as limiting the spread of nondamaging conditions. The way all condition classes should look should be similar to a condition firebrand, if you've tried it. They don't have a lot of conditions, just lots of burning and a bit of bleeding. And so when they fire an opponent they don't hit you with a brick wall of every condition in the game, but they ramp up burning and up and up. 1 stack, 3 stacks, 7 stacks, 12 stacks, 18 stacks. Unfortunately, with how cleanses cleanses are power crept their damage out put just doesn't stick to anything you'll see running around in ranked right now. I think on a philosophical level condition damage classes including mirage, should operate like this and condition cleanses should be toned down so that this type of play is competitive with power damage. > > > > > > > > > > The things in my OP don't impact mirage they impact every build in the game that goes up against them. > > > > > > > > Thank God anet does not agree with that ever is cooking in your mind. Because they nerfed the kitten out of Condi mirage. > > > > > > > > I am so happy they Nerf the kitten out of it. Good riddance. > > > > > > > > You basically want gameplay that involves consistently lacing people with Condi. With out the ability to cleanse. This makes no sense because PvP is based around holding nodes. A scourge putting circles on the node makes it impossible to play with out cleanse. > > > > > > > > You just want brain dead builds like the previous mirage where you get to apply conditions limitlessly. While having the ability to avoid damage through stealth, detarget and invunrs. It is the most braindead build there is. You literally just cycle through buttons. And because there's not much Condi cleanse with other classes they ever die or are forced to leave. Except for prot holo. Thanks God for prot holo killing braindead Condi builds like the previous Condi mirage > > > > > > > > Braindead builds like that get nerfed and it rightly did. > > > > > > You must be a real hoot at parties. And you call me biased and emotional. > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 14 [Dagger Storm](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dagger_Storm "Dagger Storm") > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Overall I'm okay with Daggerstorm but there are two aspects I specifically hate; the fact that Improvisation recharges this and the random projectiles that shoot off of it. With Improvisation, you always end up in a fight against that one thief who is running the double steal trait alongside the recharge a skilltype trait and gets Daggerstorm recharged each steal equaling three Daggerstorms spammed back to back and you just can't handle that and die and he says "GG EZ." EVERY time. Also if the counter play is to get away from the thief as they're daggerstorming, I shouldn't have to deal with getting pelted by the random projectiles as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Improvisation has 20 second ICD so you never get any CD reset from your reseted Steal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I permanently see people claiming that due to SE thieves are getting resets so much. Not true, not possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Daggerstorm > Steal > Recharge Daggerstorm > 20 seconds later when steal is off cooldown > steal again and dagger storm. That's easily potential daggerstorms within the span of a pretty realistic duration fight. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The recharge is random. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's the _problem_. I actually can't believe how many people are defending pure RNG so vehemently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure dagger storm is a bit strong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't say that. I specifically talked about the random interactions of the skill, specifically it's interaction with Improvisation and the projectiles. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Literally all I said was I hate the randomness of improvisation and the random projectiles. That's it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warrior and spellbreaker are the builds I have the second most amount of play time on, totaling 1,501 games at the moment. Landing magebane tether is not hard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's funny how you quickly you go around, putting words in my mouth I didn't say, accuse me of not multiclassing and completely and deliberately misinterpret a part of my post to prove your point. You sure do seem like a big tough guy, knocking all those men made of straw down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Landing thether is not hard when there's lots of aoe sure. But in a 1v1 which is where the warrior should be. Don't hit into full counter? Like seriously...it's not hard to see a warrior has fc up and just wait it out. Also even if it hits. It can pull you. Ok. But it's not game ending, it does a whooping 300 dmg at most. Wow that's so much dmg. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's seriously not overpowered what so ever and no one is complaining about warrior at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Yes I am assuming you either don't muti class or you don't play them at a high ranked level other than your main.** Since you are specifically complaining about skills that work against your main which seems to be Condi mirage. Things from Condi removal to Condi dmg. And I think your opinion is unfairly biased. > > > > > > > As with every single post you make. Just like others have pointed out here > > > > > > > > > > > > Well you know what they say about assumptions. Again, 1500 games on warrior. > > > > > > > > > > > > You still can't even admit "Maybe having a random utility type recharged on steal is level of randomness that in general is unhealthy for a PvP game mode." I thought we all hated RNG based stuff they've spent years culling out of the game bit by bit as well as all the passive automatic saves like Endure Pain and the old version of Automatic Elixir S. And yet I'm the biased one when you keep putting words in my mouth, accusing me of saying things I never said and advocated for things I didn't advocate for. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you step back and look at your own biases, the fact that Condition Mirage and Scourge are the _only_ viable condition damage builds, and 7/9 other classes run power almost exclusively points towards _something_ being broken about the power level discrepancy between power and condition damage builds not involving necromancer and mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > > > My general thoughts have been for a while that all condition kits on all classes should have their primary spread of damaging conditions condensed into 1-2 conditions as well as limiting the spread of nondamaging conditions. The way all condition classes should look should be similar to a condition firebrand, if you've tried it. They don't have a lot of conditions, just lots of burning and a bit of bleeding. And so when they fire an opponent they don't hit you with a brick wall of every condition in the game, but they ramp up burning and up and up. 1 stack, 3 stacks, 7 stacks, 12 stacks, 18 stacks. Unfortunately, with how cleanses cleanses are power crept their damage out put just doesn't stick to anything you'll see running around in ranked right now. I think on a philosophical level condition damage classes including mirage, should operate like this and condition cleanses should be toned down so that this type of play is competitive with power damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > The things in my OP don't impact mirage they impact every build in the game that goes up against them. > > > > > > > > > > While desperately trying to appear as a saint...claiming your "balance" ideology comes from your multiclass "expertise"....you have an elite mesmer design proposal in your signature, you may want to remove that before going back to your "unbiased" balance crusades ...amusing as they are to read > > > > > > > > I think there is no point talkinig to this guy. We need to just ignore people like this. Anet is not gonna take anything he says seriously anyway. Since it doesn't reflect actual data. > > > > > > > > Like when the entire community knew the pervious mirage was busted. **He was all like na.** > > > > > > [sure I was. ](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/818151/#Comment_818151 "Sure I was. ") > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > I'm just going to start off saying I appreciate your more measured suggestions compared to your direct response to a certain streamer. > > > > > > > > I really like your suggested changes to Deceptive Decoy, a trait I hate both the idea as a percentage based save and also it's in game impact. More often than not I feel like the most it does for me during a match is interrupt my stomp attempts. I want something completely different in it's place. I think rolling it into Distortion is a good way to keep it value neutral while giving players control over it, the way I liked the idea of warrior's Defy Pain trait turning Endure Pain into a 2 charge ammo skill. > > > > > > > > I also really like your idea for Infinite Horizons as well. One of the things I've noticed is that not only can you just play defensively with infinite Horizons while doing damage, if you do turn around and use an ambush at the tail end of the ambush window you've created a 2 second window of nonstop attacks being thrown at the enemy player. A single ambush attack shouldn't really be creating that long of a danger period. Having one key moment where even with Infinite Horizon any ambush attack could be completely dodged would make it feel far less oppressive I think. And it hinders that more defensive play style where you can just kite and still get so much damage with clones so it's a very solid suggestion. > > > > > > > > In terms of changes I want to see these are the main ones these suggestions are all stuff I've written earlier so some stuff is a little incompatible with your suggestions. > > > > > > > > **Mirage Cloak No Longer Works while Stunned, Knocked Back, Launched, or floated. Elusive Mind does something else entirely.** > > > > I mean come on, it's been over a year now and everyone know this is a toxic behavior especially mesmers since it's inception. > > > > > > > > I know for a fact it can't be a coding problem because in the engine there are tons of moments where even as a mirage you are actually stunned and prevented from dodging like in raid bosses and on certain story steps. It's a deliberate choice by the developers to keep it this way. > > > > > > > > **Deceptive Evasion** > > > > Clones Spawned by Deceptive Evasion no longer spawn automatically doing their Ambush attack with Infinite Horizon. > > > > It's a fun trait synergy, but I think it's too much with Infinite Horizon. Infinite Horizon rewards spawning and maintaining three clones at once, and with all the AoE and cleave spilling around is actually somewhat difficult. But the investment in having and maintaining clones is undercut when a dodge roll doesn't just spawn a clone, but also automatically gives you the damage is putting too much into the value of one dodge even for Mirage. Deceptive Evasion is fine, but they shouldn't ambush until the Mirage Cloak after they initially spawn. This directly impacts the chaos variant of mirage, with it's gradual but much higher sustained condition damage and 1v1 potential. > > > > > > > > Like I said, some stuff is incompatible with a few of your changes. I think your proposed change to Infinite Horizon makes this mute, anyway. > > > > > > > > **Cry of Pain** > > > > Cry of Pain has been reverted back to Illusionary Retribution and instead of two additional stack of confusion per shatter with Cry of Frustration just apply 1 confusion per shatter for all of their shatter skills. > > > > I think a lot of people really missed how much this trait impacted Mesmer in PvP. Just a refresher for those not in the know, it used to be Illusionary Retribution, which had all shatter skills apply confusion on shatter until the phantasm rework. The end result is that a 3 Clone Mind Wrack or Distraction would both apply 4 stacks of confusion, and a three clone Cry of Frustration would apply 8 stacks of confusion. However, during the Phantasm rework last February they switched it so that it now gives Cry of Frustration 2 additional stacks of confusion, front loading ALL of the Mesmer's potential Confusion shatter output into just one shatter. Now Cry of Frustration on it's own if it lands is 12 stacks of confusion just right there and that doesn't even count Blinding Disipation+Ineptitude. And cry of Frustration's confusion stacks last 33% longer. This made Illusions condi mirage FAR burstier than it had been previously. This along side confusion being altered to do almost no damage per second and all of it's damage on skill activation is why suddenly condition mirages were melting people so, so hard after the phantasm rework. > > > > > > > > I'm personally fine with confusion doing large amounts of damage on skill activation, I like it from both a game play and flavor perspective, but Cry of Pain front loads too much. Cry of Frustration should clearly be a condition mesmer's bread and butter, but spreading the condition application out so that it requires more successful comboing of shatters to reap the benefits of it would be much healthier than what we have now. > > > > > > > > I know Chaos is currently favored right now, but make no mistake Illusions is also very strong and it wouldn't take too much nerfing to make people primarily run Illusions and when they do I think this change will be important. > > > > > > > > **Axes of Symmetry** > > > > I think your choice for a nerf is okay. > > > > > > > > Personally I would just nerf the confusion stacks to PvE levels (Three from Player for those not in the know), remove the detarget. Bump the cooldown up to 15 seconds base 12 seconds traited maybe a bit more so it's not 100% a certainty that it will be up every weapon swap. > > > > > > > > **Jaunt** > > > > I actually want to damage and condition removed from this skill. I know a lot of mesmers poke fun at a certain streamer for him talking about it doing "FOUR THINGS!" and I know Jaunt isn't exactly blowing people up anymore (2k crits on Power Mirage at POF release were hilarious though. I sniped a lot of kills with that). I just philosophically dislike and disagree with instant cast damage like this and would rather see the damage gone just from a philosophical level. Keep condition cleanse, movement and it's lack of true stunbreak, revert it back to 3 ammo with a 20 second cooldown again after this. > > > > > > > > After that, I really don't want too much else touched until condition cleanses and condition damage spreads are normalized at which point I would have a ton of changes I would like to see with mesmer and mirage in specific. I've gone into this topic enough times so I'm not going to copy and paste it again here as this post is still loo long. Like I would personally prefer to see all classes including mesmers only really have Confusion and Torment as their primary damaging conditions and for condition damage to actually be a thing where you build up damage stacks on enemies over time bit by bit 1 stack, 2 stacks, 5 stacks, 7 stacks, 10 stacks, and up and up. But with how over tuned condition cleanses with a majority of classes are being able to shake of 5+ conditions repeatedly over the course of a fight, unless you shot gun someone with 3 damaging conditions and three covering conditions they're functionally indestructible. It's why only condition mirage and condition scourge are even viable now. Mirage has so much variety in damaging stacks and cover conditions, and scourge has a solid variety and access to potentially all conditions through boon corrupt. > > > > > > > > In general I would prefer mesmers of all stripes to win matches more through their unique team and solo utility rather than their ability to slam down kills. Stuff like Portal, Illusion of Life, Null Field, Arcane Thievery, Signet of Humility and Mass invisibility should be lynchpins of mesmer success across all builds in ranked and AT. But Portal was nerfed and everything else interesting is outright bad aside from Arcane Thievery. It should be a cerebral high skill cap class. But portal was nerfed so condition slammer it is I guess. > > > > > > > > I really want something done with out Elite Skills that aren't jaunt. Like Mass Invisibility, Signet of Humility and Time Warp. The toolbelt skill for engineer's Elixir S is a 5 second stealth so it's just as long as Mass Invis, it's has a 75% faster cast time and 66% faster cooldown and it's always going to be run traited. The only thing Mass Invisibility has over it is that the pulse is in a wide area around the mesmer which when you want to stealth an ally like to prevent a stomp or something isn't even that helpful compared to how freaking fast Toss Elixir S is and how much more useful the extremely fast cast time is. Like I know classes are going to have inherent symmetries and that you can't always compare X skill or trait to Y skill or trait, but really why is the engineer bonus for picking an already best in slot utility skill a better version of one of our elites in literally every way that matters? > > > > > > You literally cannot stop making things up about me. And that's just one thread! Even a cursory glance would show tons of suggested nerfs to mirage over the months in most threads about the build. And you couldn't be bothered to look and instead decided to just make things up about me. > > > > Yup totally truth death to Condi message. Nerf Nerf Nerf! > > That's pretty much the queue not to read/take seriously anything _you_ say. As in, you keep spitting bullkitten, making up stuff that OP proves you wrong on, so you've nothing left but some flippant last words (above). > > Also, it's clear you simply want condition damage deleted from the game (as if it's widely viable now). Sounds like you just want to nerf what kills you and you dislike. Much like what you and others accuse OP of. Kitten about what? That there's nothing wrong with overcharge shot, healing current or swoop. Seriously. If you ever played ranger or holo you should know these are one of the disengages just like mesmer has stealth, teleport, distort etc etc. Actually no I don't want anything nerfed right now because i think everything is in a good place except scrapper which just needs a 5 second longer cool down on gyros. I think Condi mirage is now balanced and is playable with out being over powered. I have no idea what op proved me wrong on lol it's just plan dumb to want to Nerf every single class. Except his class. I only wrote that because I can't be bothered with an online argument that will go no where. I don't want to actually delete Condi mirage. That was just trolling. Seriously. If you want to cry about every other class than your own with him. Then be my guest. I really don't care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted March 26, 2019 Author Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 14 [Dagger Storm](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dagger_Storm "Dagger Storm") > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Overall I'm okay with Daggerstorm but there are two aspects I specifically hate; the fact that Improvisation recharges this and the random projectiles that shoot off of it. With Improvisation, you always end up in a fight against that one thief who is running the double steal trait alongside the recharge a skilltype trait and gets Daggerstorm recharged each steal equaling three Daggerstorms spammed back to back and you just can't handle that and die and he says "GG EZ." EVERY time. Also if the counter play is to get away from the thief as they're daggerstorming, I shouldn't have to deal with getting pelted by the random projectiles as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Improvisation has 20 second ICD so you never get any CD reset from your reseted Steal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I permanently see people claiming that due to SE thieves are getting resets so much. Not true, not possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Daggerstorm > Steal > Recharge Daggerstorm > 20 seconds later when steal is off cooldown > steal again and dagger storm. That's easily potential daggerstorms within the span of a pretty realistic duration fight. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The recharge is random. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's the _problem_. I actually can't believe how many people are defending pure RNG so vehemently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure dagger storm is a bit strong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't say that. I specifically talked about the random interactions of the skill, specifically it's interaction with Improvisation and the projectiles. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Literally all I said was I hate the randomness of improvisation and the random projectiles. That's it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warrior and spellbreaker are the builds I have the second most amount of play time on, totaling 1,501 games at the moment. Landing magebane tether is not hard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's funny how you quickly you go around, putting words in my mouth I didn't say, accuse me of not multiclassing and completely and deliberately misinterpret a part of my post to prove your point. You sure do seem like a big tough guy, knocking all those men made of straw down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Landing thether is not hard when there's lots of aoe sure. But in a 1v1 which is where the warrior should be. Don't hit into full counter? Like seriously...it's not hard to see a warrior has fc up and just wait it out. Also even if it hits. It can pull you. Ok. But it's not game ending, it does a whooping 300 dmg at most. Wow that's so much dmg. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's seriously not overpowered what so ever and no one is complaining about warrior at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Yes I am assuming you either don't muti class or you don't play them at a high ranked level other than your main.** Since you are specifically complaining about skills that work against your main which seems to be Condi mirage. Things from Condi removal to Condi dmg. And I think your opinion is unfairly biased. > > > > > > > > > As with every single post you make. Just like others have pointed out here > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well you know what they say about assumptions. Again, 1500 games on warrior. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You still can't even admit "Maybe having a random utility type recharged on steal is level of randomness that in general is unhealthy for a PvP game mode." I thought we all hated RNG based stuff they've spent years culling out of the game bit by bit as well as all the passive automatic saves like Endure Pain and the old version of Automatic Elixir S. And yet I'm the biased one when you keep putting words in my mouth, accusing me of saying things I never said and advocated for things I didn't advocate for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you step back and look at your own biases, the fact that Condition Mirage and Scourge are the _only_ viable condition damage builds, and 7/9 other classes run power almost exclusively points towards _something_ being broken about the power level discrepancy between power and condition damage builds not involving necromancer and mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My general thoughts have been for a while that all condition kits on all classes should have their primary spread of damaging conditions condensed into 1-2 conditions as well as limiting the spread of nondamaging conditions. The way all condition classes should look should be similar to a condition firebrand, if you've tried it. They don't have a lot of conditions, just lots of burning and a bit of bleeding. And so when they fire an opponent they don't hit you with a brick wall of every condition in the game, but they ramp up burning and up and up. 1 stack, 3 stacks, 7 stacks, 12 stacks, 18 stacks. Unfortunately, with how cleanses cleanses are power crept their damage out put just doesn't stick to anything you'll see running around in ranked right now. I think on a philosophical level condition damage classes including mirage, should operate like this and condition cleanses should be toned down so that this type of play is competitive with power damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The things in my OP don't impact mirage they impact every build in the game that goes up against them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank God anet does not agree with that ever is cooking in your mind. Because they nerfed the kitten out of Condi mirage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am so happy they Nerf the kitten out of it. Good riddance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You basically want gameplay that involves consistently lacing people with Condi. With out the ability to cleanse. This makes no sense because PvP is based around holding nodes. A scourge putting circles on the node makes it impossible to play with out cleanse. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You just want brain dead builds like the previous mirage where you get to apply conditions limitlessly. While having the ability to avoid damage through stealth, detarget and invunrs. It is the most braindead build there is. You literally just cycle through buttons. And because there's not much Condi cleanse with other classes they ever die or are forced to leave. Except for prot holo. Thanks God for prot holo killing braindead Condi builds like the previous Condi mirage > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Braindead builds like that get nerfed and it rightly did. > > > > > > > > > > > > You must be a real hoot at parties. And you call me biased and emotional. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 14 [Dagger Storm](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dagger_Storm "Dagger Storm") > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Overall I'm okay with Daggerstorm but there are two aspects I specifically hate; the fact that Improvisation recharges this and the random projectiles that shoot off of it. With Improvisation, you always end up in a fight against that one thief who is running the double steal trait alongside the recharge a skilltype trait and gets Daggerstorm recharged each steal equaling three Daggerstorms spammed back to back and you just can't handle that and die and he says "GG EZ." EVERY time. Also if the counter play is to get away from the thief as they're daggerstorming, I shouldn't have to deal with getting pelted by the random projectiles as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Improvisation has 20 second ICD so you never get any CD reset from your reseted Steal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I permanently see people claiming that due to SE thieves are getting resets so much. Not true, not possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Daggerstorm > Steal > Recharge Daggerstorm > 20 seconds later when steal is off cooldown > steal again and dagger storm. That's easily potential daggerstorms within the span of a pretty realistic duration fight. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The recharge is random. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's the _problem_. I actually can't believe how many people are defending pure RNG so vehemently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure dagger storm is a bit strong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't say that. I specifically talked about the random interactions of the skill, specifically it's interaction with Improvisation and the projectiles. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Literally all I said was I hate the randomness of improvisation and the random projectiles. That's it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warrior and spellbreaker are the builds I have the second most amount of play time on, totaling 1,501 games at the moment. Landing magebane tether is not hard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's funny how you quickly you go around, putting words in my mouth I didn't say, accuse me of not multiclassing and completely and deliberately misinterpret a part of my post to prove your point. You sure do seem like a big tough guy, knocking all those men made of straw down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Landing thether is not hard when there's lots of aoe sure. But in a 1v1 which is where the warrior should be. Don't hit into full counter? Like seriously...it's not hard to see a warrior has fc up and just wait it out. Also even if it hits. It can pull you. Ok. But it's not game ending, it does a whooping 300 dmg at most. Wow that's so much dmg. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's seriously not overpowered what so ever and no one is complaining about warrior at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Yes I am assuming you either don't muti class or you don't play them at a high ranked level other than your main.** Since you are specifically complaining about skills that work against your main which seems to be Condi mirage. Things from Condi removal to Condi dmg. And I think your opinion is unfairly biased. > > > > > > > > > > As with every single post you make. Just like others have pointed out here > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well you know what they say about assumptions. Again, 1500 games on warrior. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You still can't even admit "Maybe having a random utility type recharged on steal is level of randomness that in general is unhealthy for a PvP game mode." I thought we all hated RNG based stuff they've spent years culling out of the game bit by bit as well as all the passive automatic saves like Endure Pain and the old version of Automatic Elixir S. And yet I'm the biased one when you keep putting words in my mouth, accusing me of saying things I never said and advocated for things I didn't advocate for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you step back and look at your own biases, the fact that Condition Mirage and Scourge are the _only_ viable condition damage builds, and 7/9 other classes run power almost exclusively points towards _something_ being broken about the power level discrepancy between power and condition damage builds not involving necromancer and mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My general thoughts have been for a while that all condition kits on all classes should have their primary spread of damaging conditions condensed into 1-2 conditions as well as limiting the spread of nondamaging conditions. The way all condition classes should look should be similar to a condition firebrand, if you've tried it. They don't have a lot of conditions, just lots of burning and a bit of bleeding. And so when they fire an opponent they don't hit you with a brick wall of every condition in the game, but they ramp up burning and up and up. 1 stack, 3 stacks, 7 stacks, 12 stacks, 18 stacks. Unfortunately, with how cleanses cleanses are power crept their damage out put just doesn't stick to anything you'll see running around in ranked right now. I think on a philosophical level condition damage classes including mirage, should operate like this and condition cleanses should be toned down so that this type of play is competitive with power damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The things in my OP don't impact mirage they impact every build in the game that goes up against them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While desperately trying to appear as a saint...claiming your "balance" ideology comes from your multiclass "expertise"....you have an elite mesmer design proposal in your signature, you may want to remove that before going back to your "unbiased" balance crusades ...amusing as they are to read > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think there is no point talkinig to this guy. We need to just ignore people like this. Anet is not gonna take anything he says seriously anyway. Since it doesn't reflect actual data. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Like when the entire community knew the pervious mirage was busted. **He was all like na.** > > > > > > > > > > > > [sure I was. ](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/818151/#Comment_818151 "Sure I was. ") > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > I'm just going to start off saying I appreciate your more measured suggestions compared to your direct response to a certain streamer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I really like your suggested changes to Deceptive Decoy, a trait I hate both the idea as a percentage based save and also it's in game impact. More often than not I feel like the most it does for me during a match is interrupt my stomp attempts. I want something completely different in it's place. I think rolling it into Distortion is a good way to keep it value neutral while giving players control over it, the way I liked the idea of warrior's Defy Pain trait turning Endure Pain into a 2 charge ammo skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I also really like your idea for Infinite Horizons as well. One of the things I've noticed is that not only can you just play defensively with infinite Horizons while doing damage, if you do turn around and use an ambush at the tail end of the ambush window you've created a 2 second window of nonstop attacks being thrown at the enemy player. A single ambush attack shouldn't really be creating that long of a danger period. Having one key moment where even with Infinite Horizon any ambush attack could be completely dodged would make it feel far less oppressive I think. And it hinders that more defensive play style where you can just kite and still get so much damage with clones so it's a very solid suggestion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In terms of changes I want to see these are the main ones these suggestions are all stuff I've written earlier so some stuff is a little incompatible with your suggestions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Mirage Cloak No Longer Works while Stunned, Knocked Back, Launched, or floated. Elusive Mind does something else entirely.** > > > > > > > I mean come on, it's been over a year now and everyone know this is a toxic behavior especially mesmers since it's inception. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know for a fact it can't be a coding problem because in the engine there are tons of moments where even as a mirage you are actually stunned and prevented from dodging like in raid bosses and on certain story steps. It's a deliberate choice by the developers to keep it this way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Deceptive Evasion** > > > > > > > Clones Spawned by Deceptive Evasion no longer spawn automatically doing their Ambush attack with Infinite Horizon. > > > > > > > It's a fun trait synergy, but I think it's too much with Infinite Horizon. Infinite Horizon rewards spawning and maintaining three clones at once, and with all the AoE and cleave spilling around is actually somewhat difficult. But the investment in having and maintaining clones is undercut when a dodge roll doesn't just spawn a clone, but also automatically gives you the damage is putting too much into the value of one dodge even for Mirage. Deceptive Evasion is fine, but they shouldn't ambush until the Mirage Cloak after they initially spawn. This directly impacts the chaos variant of mirage, with it's gradual but much higher sustained condition damage and 1v1 potential. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Like I said, some stuff is incompatible with a few of your changes. I think your proposed change to Infinite Horizon makes this mute, anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Cry of Pain** > > > > > > > Cry of Pain has been reverted back to Illusionary Retribution and instead of two additional stack of confusion per shatter with Cry of Frustration just apply 1 confusion per shatter for all of their shatter skills. > > > > > > > I think a lot of people really missed how much this trait impacted Mesmer in PvP. Just a refresher for those not in the know, it used to be Illusionary Retribution, which had all shatter skills apply confusion on shatter until the phantasm rework. The end result is that a 3 Clone Mind Wrack or Distraction would both apply 4 stacks of confusion, and a three clone Cry of Frustration would apply 8 stacks of confusion. However, during the Phantasm rework last February they switched it so that it now gives Cry of Frustration 2 additional stacks of confusion, front loading ALL of the Mesmer's potential Confusion shatter output into just one shatter. Now Cry of Frustration on it's own if it lands is 12 stacks of confusion just right there and that doesn't even count Blinding Disipation+Ineptitude. And cry of Frustration's confusion stacks last 33% longer. This made Illusions condi mirage FAR burstier than it had been previously. This along side confusion being altered to do almost no damage per second and all of it's damage on skill activation is why suddenly condition mirages were melting people so, so hard after the phantasm rework. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm personally fine with confusion doing large amounts of damage on skill activation, I like it from both a game play and flavor perspective, but Cry of Pain front loads too much. Cry of Frustration should clearly be a condition mesmer's bread and butter, but spreading the condition application out so that it requires more successful comboing of shatters to reap the benefits of it would be much healthier than what we have now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know Chaos is currently favored right now, but make no mistake Illusions is also very strong and it wouldn't take too much nerfing to make people primarily run Illusions and when they do I think this change will be important. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Axes of Symmetry** > > > > > > > I think your choice for a nerf is okay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Personally I would just nerf the confusion stacks to PvE levels (Three from Player for those not in the know), remove the detarget. Bump the cooldown up to 15 seconds base 12 seconds traited maybe a bit more so it's not 100% a certainty that it will be up every weapon swap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Jaunt** > > > > > > > I actually want to damage and condition removed from this skill. I know a lot of mesmers poke fun at a certain streamer for him talking about it doing "FOUR THINGS!" and I know Jaunt isn't exactly blowing people up anymore (2k crits on Power Mirage at POF release were hilarious though. I sniped a lot of kills with that). I just philosophically dislike and disagree with instant cast damage like this and would rather see the damage gone just from a philosophical level. Keep condition cleanse, movement and it's lack of true stunbreak, revert it back to 3 ammo with a 20 second cooldown again after this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After that, I really don't want too much else touched until condition cleanses and condition damage spreads are normalized at which point I would have a ton of changes I would like to see with mesmer and mirage in specific. I've gone into this topic enough times so I'm not going to copy and paste it again here as this post is still loo long. Like I would personally prefer to see all classes including mesmers only really have Confusion and Torment as their primary damaging conditions and for condition damage to actually be a thing where you build up damage stacks on enemies over time bit by bit 1 stack, 2 stacks, 5 stacks, 7 stacks, 10 stacks, and up and up. But with how over tuned condition cleanses with a majority of classes are being able to shake of 5+ conditions repeatedly over the course of a fight, unless you shot gun someone with 3 damaging conditions and three covering conditions they're functionally indestructible. It's why only condition mirage and condition scourge are even viable now. Mirage has so much variety in damaging stacks and cover conditions, and scourge has a solid variety and access to potentially all conditions through boon corrupt. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In general I would prefer mesmers of all stripes to win matches more through their unique team and solo utility rather than their ability to slam down kills. Stuff like Portal, Illusion of Life, Null Field, Arcane Thievery, Signet of Humility and Mass invisibility should be lynchpins of mesmer success across all builds in ranked and AT. But Portal was nerfed and everything else interesting is outright bad aside from Arcane Thievery. It should be a cerebral high skill cap class. But portal was nerfed so condition slammer it is I guess. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I really want something done with out Elite Skills that aren't jaunt. Like Mass Invisibility, Signet of Humility and Time Warp. The toolbelt skill for engineer's Elixir S is a 5 second stealth so it's just as long as Mass Invis, it's has a 75% faster cast time and 66% faster cooldown and it's always going to be run traited. The only thing Mass Invisibility has over it is that the pulse is in a wide area around the mesmer which when you want to stealth an ally like to prevent a stomp or something isn't even that helpful compared to how freaking fast Toss Elixir S is and how much more useful the extremely fast cast time is. Like I know classes are going to have inherent symmetries and that you can't always compare X skill or trait to Y skill or trait, but really why is the engineer bonus for picking an already best in slot utility skill a better version of one of our elites in literally every way that matters? > > > > > > > > > > > > You literally cannot stop making things up about me. And that's just one thread! Even a cursory glance would show tons of suggested nerfs to mirage over the months in most threads about the build. And you couldn't be bothered to look and instead decided to just make things up about me. > > > > > > > > > > Yup totally truth death to Condi message. Nerf Nerf Nerf! > > > > > > > > That's pretty much the queue not to read/take seriously anything _you_ say. As in, you keep spitting bullkitten, making up stuff that OP proves you wrong on, so you've nothing left but some flippant last words (above). > > > > > > > > Also, it's clear you simply want condition damage deleted from the game (as if it's widely viable now). Sounds like you just want to nerf what kills you and you dislike. Much like what you and others accuse OP of. > > > > > > Yup totally. Excatly what I meant Nerf Nerf nerf > > > > I'm personally surprised you have the gall to pop back in here after how hard I exposed you last time for lying about me. > > Yes I feel so exposed. You totally got me. Maybe you'll think twice next time before haphazardly making stuff up about people. > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > 14 [Dagger Storm](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dagger_Storm "Dagger Storm") > > > > > > > > > > > Overall I'm okay with Daggerstorm but there are two aspects I specifically hate; the fact that Improvisation recharges this and the random projectiles that shoot off of it. With Improvisation, you always end up in a fight against that one thief who is running the double steal trait alongside the recharge a skilltype trait and gets Daggerstorm recharged each steal equaling three Daggerstorms spammed back to back and you just can't handle that and die and he says "GG EZ." EVERY time. Also if the counter play is to get away from the thief as they're daggerstorming, I shouldn't have to deal with getting pelted by the random projectiles as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. > > > > > > > > > > Improvisation has 20 second ICD so you never get any CD reset from your reseted Steal. > > > > > > > > > > I permanently see people claiming that due to SE thieves are getting resets so much. Not true, not possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Daggerstorm > Steal > Recharge Daggerstorm > 20 seconds later when steal is off cooldown > steal again and dagger storm. That's easily potential daggerstorms within the span of a pretty realistic duration fight. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The recharge is random. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's the _problem_. I actually can't believe how many people are defending pure RNG so vehemently. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure dagger storm is a bit strong. > > > > > > > > > > I didn't say that. I specifically talked about the random interactions of the skill, specifically it's interaction with Improvisation and the projectiles. > > > > > > > > > > Literally all I said was I hate the randomness of improvisation and the random projectiles. That's it. > > > > > > > > > > Warrior and spellbreaker are the builds I have the second most amount of play time on, totaling 1,501 games at the moment. Landing magebane tether is not hard. > > > > > > > > > > It's funny how you quickly you go around, putting words in my mouth I didn't say, accuse me of not multiclassing and completely and deliberately misinterpret a part of my post to prove your point. You sure do seem like a big tough guy, knocking all those men made of straw down. > > > > > > > > Landing thether is not hard when there's lots of aoe sure. But in a 1v1 which is where the warrior should be. Don't hit into full counter? Like seriously...it's not hard to see a warrior has fc up and just wait it out. Also even if it hits. It can pull you. Ok. But it's not game ending, it does a whooping 300 dmg at most. Wow that's so much dmg. > > > > > > > > It's seriously not overpowered what so ever and no one is complaining about warrior at all. > > > > > > > > **Yes I am assuming you either don't muti class or you don't play them at a high ranked level other than your main.** Since you are specifically complaining about skills that work against your main which seems to be Condi mirage. Things from Condi removal to Condi dmg. And I think your opinion is unfairly biased. > > > > As with every single post you make. Just like others have pointed out here > > > > > > Well you know what they say about assumptions. Again, 1500 games on warrior. > > > > > > You still can't even admit "Maybe having a random utility type recharged on steal is level of randomness that in general is unhealthy for a PvP game mode." I thought we all hated RNG based stuff they've spent years culling out of the game bit by bit as well as all the passive automatic saves like Endure Pain and the old version of Automatic Elixir S. And yet I'm the biased one when you keep putting words in my mouth, accusing me of saying things I never said and advocated for things I didn't advocate for. > > > > > > If you step back and look at your own biases, the fact that Condition Mirage and Scourge are the _only_ viable condition damage builds, and 7/9 other classes run power almost exclusively points towards _something_ being broken about the power level discrepancy between power and condition damage builds not involving necromancer and mesmer. > > > > > > My general thoughts have been for a while that all condition kits on all classes should have their primary spread of damaging conditions condensed into 1-2 conditions as well as limiting the spread of nondamaging conditions. The way all condition classes should look should be similar to a condition firebrand, if you've tried it. They don't have a lot of conditions, just lots of burning and a bit of bleeding. And so when they fire an opponent they don't hit you with a brick wall of every condition in the game, but they ramp up burning and up and up. 1 stack, 3 stacks, 7 stacks, 12 stacks, 18 stacks. Unfortunately, with how cleanses cleanses are power crept their damage out put just doesn't stick to anything you'll see running around in ranked right now. I think on a philosophical level condition damage classes including mirage, should operate like this and condition cleanses should be toned down so that this type of play is competitive with power damage. > > > > > > The things in my OP don't impact mirage they impact every build in the game that goes up against them. > > > > While desperately trying to appear as a saint...claiming your "balance" ideology comes from your multiclass "expertise"....you have an elite mesmer design proposal in your signature, you may want to remove that before going back to your "unbiased" balance crusades ...amusing as they are to read > > I think there is no point talkinig to this guy. We need to just ignore people like this. Anet is not gonna take anything he says seriously anyway. Since it doesn't reflect actual data. > > Like when the entire community knew the pervious mirage was busted. **He was all like na.** [sure I was. ](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/818151/#Comment_818151 "Sure I was. ") > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > I'm just going to start off saying I appreciate your more measured suggestions compared to your direct response to a certain streamer. > > I really like your suggested changes to Deceptive Decoy, a trait I hate both the idea as a percentage based save and also it's in game impact. More often than not I feel like the most it does for me during a match is interrupt my stomp attempts. I want something completely different in it's place. I think rolling it into Distortion is a good way to keep it value neutral while giving players control over it, the way I liked the idea of warrior's Defy Pain trait turning Endure Pain into a 2 charge ammo skill. > > I also really like your idea for Infinite Horizons as well. One of the things I've noticed is that not only can you just play defensively with infinite Horizons while doing damage, if you do turn around and use an ambush at the tail end of the ambush window you've created a 2 second window of nonstop attacks being thrown at the enemy player. A single ambush attack shouldn't really be creating that long of a danger period. Having one key moment where even with Infinite Horizon any ambush attack could be completely dodged would make it feel far less oppressive I think. And it hinders that more defensive play style where you can just kite and still get so much damage with clones so it's a very solid suggestion. > > In terms of changes I want to see these are the main ones these suggestions are all stuff I've written earlier so some stuff is a little incompatible with your suggestions. > > **Mirage Cloak No Longer Works while Stunned, Knocked Back, Launched, or floated. Elusive Mind does something else entirely.** > I mean come on, it's been over a year now and everyone know this is a toxic behavior especially mesmers since it's inception. > > I know for a fact it can't be a coding problem because in the engine there are tons of moments where even as a mirage you are actually stunned and prevented from dodging like in raid bosses and on certain story steps. It's a deliberate choice by the developers to keep it this way. > > **Deceptive Evasion** > Clones Spawned by Deceptive Evasion no longer spawn automatically doing their Ambush attack with Infinite Horizon. > It's a fun trait synergy, but I think it's too much with Infinite Horizon. Infinite Horizon rewards spawning and maintaining three clones at once, and with all the AoE and cleave spilling around is actually somewhat difficult. But the investment in having and maintaining clones is undercut when a dodge roll doesn't just spawn a clone, but also automatically gives you the damage is putting too much into the value of one dodge even for Mirage. Deceptive Evasion is fine, but they shouldn't ambush until the Mirage Cloak after they initially spawn. This directly impacts the chaos variant of mirage, with it's gradual but much higher sustained condition damage and 1v1 potential. > > Like I said, some stuff is incompatible with a few of your changes. I think your proposed change to Infinite Horizon makes this mute, anyway. > > **Cry of Pain** > Cry of Pain has been reverted back to Illusionary Retribution and instead of two additional stack of confusion per shatter with Cry of Frustration just apply 1 confusion per shatter for all of their shatter skills. > I think a lot of people really missed how much this trait impacted Mesmer in PvP. Just a refresher for those not in the know, it used to be Illusionary Retribution, which had all shatter skills apply confusion on shatter until the phantasm rework. The end result is that a 3 Clone Mind Wrack or Distraction would both apply 4 stacks of confusion, and a three clone Cry of Frustration would apply 8 stacks of confusion. However, during the Phantasm rework last February they switched it so that it now gives Cry of Frustration 2 additional stacks of confusion, front loading ALL of the Mesmer's potential Confusion shatter output into just one shatter. Now Cry of Frustration on it's own if it lands is 12 stacks of confusion just right there and that doesn't even count Blinding Disipation+Ineptitude. And cry of Frustration's confusion stacks last 33% longer. This made Illusions condi mirage FAR burstier than it had been previously. This along side confusion being altered to do almost no damage per second and all of it's damage on skill activation is why suddenly condition mirages were melting people so, so hard after the phantasm rework. > > I'm personally fine with confusion doing large amounts of damage on skill activation, I like it from both a game play and flavor perspective, but Cry of Pain front loads too much. Cry of Frustration should clearly be a condition mesmer's bread and butter, but spreading the condition application out so that it requires more successful comboing of shatters to reap the benefits of it would be much healthier than what we have now. > > I know Chaos is currently favored right now, but make no mistake Illusions is also very strong and it wouldn't take too much nerfing to make people primarily run Illusions and when they do I think this change will be important. > > **Axes of Symmetry** > I think your choice for a nerf is okay. > > Personally I would just nerf the confusion stacks to PvE levels (Three from Player for those not in the know), remove the detarget. Bump the cooldown up to 15 seconds base 12 seconds traited maybe a bit more so it's not 100% a certainty that it will be up every weapon swap. > > **Jaunt** > I actually want to damage and condition removed from this skill. I know a lot of mesmers poke fun at a certain streamer for him talking about it doing "FOUR THINGS!" and I know Jaunt isn't exactly blowing people up anymore (2k crits on Power Mirage at POF release were hilarious though. I sniped a lot of kills with that). I just philosophically dislike and disagree with instant cast damage like this and would rather see the damage gone just from a philosophical level. Keep condition cleanse, movement and it's lack of true stunbreak, revert it back to 3 ammo with a 20 second cooldown again after this. > > After that, I really don't want too much else touched until condition cleanses and condition damage spreads are normalized at which point I would have a ton of changes I would like to see with mesmer and mirage in specific. I've gone into this topic enough times so I'm not going to copy and paste it again here as this post is still loo long. Like I would personally prefer to see all classes including mesmers only really have Confusion and Torment as their primary damaging conditions and for condition damage to actually be a thing where you build up damage stacks on enemies over time bit by bit 1 stack, 2 stacks, 5 stacks, 7 stacks, 10 stacks, and up and up. But with how over tuned condition cleanses with a majority of classes are being able to shake of 5+ conditions repeatedly over the course of a fight, unless you shot gun someone with 3 damaging conditions and three covering conditions they're functionally indestructible. It's why only condition mirage and condition scourge are even viable now. Mirage has so much variety in damaging stacks and cover conditions, and scourge has a solid variety and access to potentially all conditions through boon corrupt. > > In general I would prefer mesmers of all stripes to win matches more through their unique team and solo utility rather than their ability to slam down kills. Stuff like Portal, Illusion of Life, Null Field, Arcane Thievery, Signet of Humility and Mass invisibility should be lynchpins of mesmer success across all builds in ranked and AT. But Portal was nerfed and everything else interesting is outright bad aside from Arcane Thievery. It should be a cerebral high skill cap class. But portal was nerfed so condition slammer it is I guess. > > I really want something done with out Elite Skills that aren't jaunt. Like Mass Invisibility, Signet of Humility and Time Warp. The toolbelt skill for engineer's Elixir S is a 5 second stealth so it's just as long as Mass Invis, it's has a 75% faster cast time and 66% faster cooldown and it's always going to be run traited. The only thing Mass Invisibility has over it is that the pulse is in a wide area around the mesmer which when you want to stealth an ally like to prevent a stomp or something isn't even that helpful compared to how freaking fast Toss Elixir S is and how much more useful the extremely fast cast time is. Like I know classes are going to have inherent symmetries and that you can't always compare X skill or trait to Y skill or trait, but really why is the engineer bonus for picking an already best in slot utility skill a better version of one of our elites in literally every way that matters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TorQ.7041 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 14 [Dagger Storm](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dagger_Storm "Dagger Storm") > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Overall I'm okay with Daggerstorm but there are two aspects I specifically hate; the fact that Improvisation recharges this and the random projectiles that shoot off of it. With Improvisation, you always end up in a fight against that one thief who is running the double steal trait alongside the recharge a skilltype trait and gets Daggerstorm recharged each steal equaling three Daggerstorms spammed back to back and you just can't handle that and die and he says "GG EZ." EVERY time. Also if the counter play is to get away from the thief as they're daggerstorming, I shouldn't have to deal with getting pelted by the random projectiles as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Improvisation has 20 second ICD so you never get any CD reset from your reseted Steal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I permanently see people claiming that due to SE thieves are getting resets so much. Not true, not possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Daggerstorm > Steal > Recharge Daggerstorm > 20 seconds later when steal is off cooldown > steal again and dagger storm. That's easily potential daggerstorms within the span of a pretty realistic duration fight. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The recharge is random. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's the _problem_. I actually can't believe how many people are defending pure RNG so vehemently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure dagger storm is a bit strong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't say that. I specifically talked about the random interactions of the skill, specifically it's interaction with Improvisation and the projectiles. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Literally all I said was I hate the randomness of improvisation and the random projectiles. That's it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warrior and spellbreaker are the builds I have the second most amount of play time on, totaling 1,501 games at the moment. Landing magebane tether is not hard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's funny how you quickly you go around, putting words in my mouth I didn't say, accuse me of not multiclassing and completely and deliberately misinterpret a part of my post to prove your point. You sure do seem like a big tough guy, knocking all those men made of straw down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Landing thether is not hard when there's lots of aoe sure. But in a 1v1 which is where the warrior should be. Don't hit into full counter? Like seriously...it's not hard to see a warrior has fc up and just wait it out. Also even if it hits. It can pull you. Ok. But it's not game ending, it does a whooping 300 dmg at most. Wow that's so much dmg. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's seriously not overpowered what so ever and no one is complaining about warrior at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Yes I am assuming you either don't muti class or you don't play them at a high ranked level other than your main.** Since you are specifically complaining about skills that work against your main which seems to be Condi mirage. Things from Condi removal to Condi dmg. And I think your opinion is unfairly biased. > > > > > > > > As with every single post you make. Just like others have pointed out here > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well you know what they say about assumptions. Again, 1500 games on warrior. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You still can't even admit "Maybe having a random utility type recharged on steal is level of randomness that in general is unhealthy for a PvP game mode." I thought we all hated RNG based stuff they've spent years culling out of the game bit by bit as well as all the passive automatic saves like Endure Pain and the old version of Automatic Elixir S. And yet I'm the biased one when you keep putting words in my mouth, accusing me of saying things I never said and advocated for things I didn't advocate for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you step back and look at your own biases, the fact that Condition Mirage and Scourge are the _only_ viable condition damage builds, and 7/9 other classes run power almost exclusively points towards _something_ being broken about the power level discrepancy between power and condition damage builds not involving necromancer and mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My general thoughts have been for a while that all condition kits on all classes should have their primary spread of damaging conditions condensed into 1-2 conditions as well as limiting the spread of nondamaging conditions. The way all condition classes should look should be similar to a condition firebrand, if you've tried it. They don't have a lot of conditions, just lots of burning and a bit of bleeding. And so when they fire an opponent they don't hit you with a brick wall of every condition in the game, but they ramp up burning and up and up. 1 stack, 3 stacks, 7 stacks, 12 stacks, 18 stacks. Unfortunately, with how cleanses cleanses are power crept their damage out put just doesn't stick to anything you'll see running around in ranked right now. I think on a philosophical level condition damage classes including mirage, should operate like this and condition cleanses should be toned down so that this type of play is competitive with power damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The things in my OP don't impact mirage they impact every build in the game that goes up against them. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank God anet does not agree with that ever is cooking in your mind. Because they nerfed the kitten out of Condi mirage. > > > > > > > > > > > > I am so happy they Nerf the kitten out of it. Good riddance. > > > > > > > > > > > > You basically want gameplay that involves consistently lacing people with Condi. With out the ability to cleanse. This makes no sense because PvP is based around holding nodes. A scourge putting circles on the node makes it impossible to play with out cleanse. > > > > > > > > > > > > You just want brain dead builds like the previous mirage where you get to apply conditions limitlessly. While having the ability to avoid damage through stealth, detarget and invunrs. It is the most braindead build there is. You literally just cycle through buttons. And because there's not much Condi cleanse with other classes they ever die or are forced to leave. Except for prot holo. Thanks God for prot holo killing braindead Condi builds like the previous Condi mirage > > > > > > > > > > > > Braindead builds like that get nerfed and it rightly did. > > > > > > > > > > You must be a real hoot at parties. And you call me biased and emotional. > > > > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 14 [Dagger Storm](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dagger_Storm "Dagger Storm") > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Overall I'm okay with Daggerstorm but there are two aspects I specifically hate; the fact that Improvisation recharges this and the random projectiles that shoot off of it. With Improvisation, you always end up in a fight against that one thief who is running the double steal trait alongside the recharge a skilltype trait and gets Daggerstorm recharged each steal equaling three Daggerstorms spammed back to back and you just can't handle that and die and he says "GG EZ." EVERY time. Also if the counter play is to get away from the thief as they're daggerstorming, I shouldn't have to deal with getting pelted by the random projectiles as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Improvisation has 20 second ICD so you never get any CD reset from your reseted Steal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I permanently see people claiming that due to SE thieves are getting resets so much. Not true, not possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Daggerstorm > Steal > Recharge Daggerstorm > 20 seconds later when steal is off cooldown > steal again and dagger storm. That's easily potential daggerstorms within the span of a pretty realistic duration fight. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The recharge is random. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's the _problem_. I actually can't believe how many people are defending pure RNG so vehemently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure dagger storm is a bit strong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't say that. I specifically talked about the random interactions of the skill, specifically it's interaction with Improvisation and the projectiles. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Literally all I said was I hate the randomness of improvisation and the random projectiles. That's it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warrior and spellbreaker are the builds I have the second most amount of play time on, totaling 1,501 games at the moment. Landing magebane tether is not hard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's funny how you quickly you go around, putting words in my mouth I didn't say, accuse me of not multiclassing and completely and deliberately misinterpret a part of my post to prove your point. You sure do seem like a big tough guy, knocking all those men made of straw down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Landing thether is not hard when there's lots of aoe sure. But in a 1v1 which is where the warrior should be. Don't hit into full counter? Like seriously...it's not hard to see a warrior has fc up and just wait it out. Also even if it hits. It can pull you. Ok. But it's not game ending, it does a whooping 300 dmg at most. Wow that's so much dmg. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's seriously not overpowered what so ever and no one is complaining about warrior at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Yes I am assuming you either don't muti class or you don't play them at a high ranked level other than your main.** Since you are specifically complaining about skills that work against your main which seems to be Condi mirage. Things from Condi removal to Condi dmg. And I think your opinion is unfairly biased. > > > > > > > > > As with every single post you make. Just like others have pointed out here > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well you know what they say about assumptions. Again, 1500 games on warrior. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You still can't even admit "Maybe having a random utility type recharged on steal is level of randomness that in general is unhealthy for a PvP game mode." I thought we all hated RNG based stuff they've spent years culling out of the game bit by bit as well as all the passive automatic saves like Endure Pain and the old version of Automatic Elixir S. And yet I'm the biased one when you keep putting words in my mouth, accusing me of saying things I never said and advocated for things I didn't advocate for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you step back and look at your own biases, the fact that Condition Mirage and Scourge are the _only_ viable condition damage builds, and 7/9 other classes run power almost exclusively points towards _something_ being broken about the power level discrepancy between power and condition damage builds not involving necromancer and mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My general thoughts have been for a while that all condition kits on all classes should have their primary spread of damaging conditions condensed into 1-2 conditions as well as limiting the spread of nondamaging conditions. The way all condition classes should look should be similar to a condition firebrand, if you've tried it. They don't have a lot of conditions, just lots of burning and a bit of bleeding. And so when they fire an opponent they don't hit you with a brick wall of every condition in the game, but they ramp up burning and up and up. 1 stack, 3 stacks, 7 stacks, 12 stacks, 18 stacks. Unfortunately, with how cleanses cleanses are power crept their damage out put just doesn't stick to anything you'll see running around in ranked right now. I think on a philosophical level condition damage classes including mirage, should operate like this and condition cleanses should be toned down so that this type of play is competitive with power damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The things in my OP don't impact mirage they impact every build in the game that goes up against them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While desperately trying to appear as a saint...claiming your "balance" ideology comes from your multiclass "expertise"....you have an elite mesmer design proposal in your signature, you may want to remove that before going back to your "unbiased" balance crusades ...amusing as they are to read > > > > > > > > > > > > I think there is no point talkinig to this guy. We need to just ignore people like this. Anet is not gonna take anything he says seriously anyway. Since it doesn't reflect actual data. > > > > > > > > > > > > Like when the entire community knew the pervious mirage was busted. **He was all like na.** > > > > > > > > > > [sure I was. ](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/818151/#Comment_818151 "Sure I was. ") > > > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > I'm just going to start off saying I appreciate your more measured suggestions compared to your direct response to a certain streamer. > > > > > > > > > > > > I really like your suggested changes to Deceptive Decoy, a trait I hate both the idea as a percentage based save and also it's in game impact. More often than not I feel like the most it does for me during a match is interrupt my stomp attempts. I want something completely different in it's place. I think rolling it into Distortion is a good way to keep it value neutral while giving players control over it, the way I liked the idea of warrior's Defy Pain trait turning Endure Pain into a 2 charge ammo skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > I also really like your idea for Infinite Horizons as well. One of the things I've noticed is that not only can you just play defensively with infinite Horizons while doing damage, if you do turn around and use an ambush at the tail end of the ambush window you've created a 2 second window of nonstop attacks being thrown at the enemy player. A single ambush attack shouldn't really be creating that long of a danger period. Having one key moment where even with Infinite Horizon any ambush attack could be completely dodged would make it feel far less oppressive I think. And it hinders that more defensive play style where you can just kite and still get so much damage with clones so it's a very solid suggestion. > > > > > > > > > > > > In terms of changes I want to see these are the main ones these suggestions are all stuff I've written earlier so some stuff is a little incompatible with your suggestions. > > > > > > > > > > > > **Mirage Cloak No Longer Works while Stunned, Knocked Back, Launched, or floated. Elusive Mind does something else entirely.** > > > > > > I mean come on, it's been over a year now and everyone know this is a toxic behavior especially mesmers since it's inception. > > > > > > > > > > > > I know for a fact it can't be a coding problem because in the engine there are tons of moments where even as a mirage you are actually stunned and prevented from dodging like in raid bosses and on certain story steps. It's a deliberate choice by the developers to keep it this way. > > > > > > > > > > > > **Deceptive Evasion** > > > > > > Clones Spawned by Deceptive Evasion no longer spawn automatically doing their Ambush attack with Infinite Horizon. > > > > > > It's a fun trait synergy, but I think it's too much with Infinite Horizon. Infinite Horizon rewards spawning and maintaining three clones at once, and with all the AoE and cleave spilling around is actually somewhat difficult. But the investment in having and maintaining clones is undercut when a dodge roll doesn't just spawn a clone, but also automatically gives you the damage is putting too much into the value of one dodge even for Mirage. Deceptive Evasion is fine, but they shouldn't ambush until the Mirage Cloak after they initially spawn. This directly impacts the chaos variant of mirage, with it's gradual but much higher sustained condition damage and 1v1 potential. > > > > > > > > > > > > Like I said, some stuff is incompatible with a few of your changes. I think your proposed change to Infinite Horizon makes this mute, anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > **Cry of Pain** > > > > > > Cry of Pain has been reverted back to Illusionary Retribution and instead of two additional stack of confusion per shatter with Cry of Frustration just apply 1 confusion per shatter for all of their shatter skills. > > > > > > I think a lot of people really missed how much this trait impacted Mesmer in PvP. Just a refresher for those not in the know, it used to be Illusionary Retribution, which had all shatter skills apply confusion on shatter until the phantasm rework. The end result is that a 3 Clone Mind Wrack or Distraction would both apply 4 stacks of confusion, and a three clone Cry of Frustration would apply 8 stacks of confusion. However, during the Phantasm rework last February they switched it so that it now gives Cry of Frustration 2 additional stacks of confusion, front loading ALL of the Mesmer's potential Confusion shatter output into just one shatter. Now Cry of Frustration on it's own if it lands is 12 stacks of confusion just right there and that doesn't even count Blinding Disipation+Ineptitude. And cry of Frustration's confusion stacks last 33% longer. This made Illusions condi mirage FAR burstier than it had been previously. This along side confusion being altered to do almost no damage per second and all of it's damage on skill activation is why suddenly condition mirages were melting people so, so hard after the phantasm rework. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm personally fine with confusion doing large amounts of damage on skill activation, I like it from both a game play and flavor perspective, but Cry of Pain front loads too much. Cry of Frustration should clearly be a condition mesmer's bread and butter, but spreading the condition application out so that it requires more successful comboing of shatters to reap the benefits of it would be much healthier than what we have now. > > > > > > > > > > > > I know Chaos is currently favored right now, but make no mistake Illusions is also very strong and it wouldn't take too much nerfing to make people primarily run Illusions and when they do I think this change will be important. > > > > > > > > > > > > **Axes of Symmetry** > > > > > > I think your choice for a nerf is okay. > > > > > > > > > > > > Personally I would just nerf the confusion stacks to PvE levels (Three from Player for those not in the know), remove the detarget. Bump the cooldown up to 15 seconds base 12 seconds traited maybe a bit more so it's not 100% a certainty that it will be up every weapon swap. > > > > > > > > > > > > **Jaunt** > > > > > > I actually want to damage and condition removed from this skill. I know a lot of mesmers poke fun at a certain streamer for him talking about it doing "FOUR THINGS!" and I know Jaunt isn't exactly blowing people up anymore (2k crits on Power Mirage at POF release were hilarious though. I sniped a lot of kills with that). I just philosophically dislike and disagree with instant cast damage like this and would rather see the damage gone just from a philosophical level. Keep condition cleanse, movement and it's lack of true stunbreak, revert it back to 3 ammo with a 20 second cooldown again after this. > > > > > > > > > > > > After that, I really don't want too much else touched until condition cleanses and condition damage spreads are normalized at which point I would have a ton of changes I would like to see with mesmer and mirage in specific. I've gone into this topic enough times so I'm not going to copy and paste it again here as this post is still loo long. Like I would personally prefer to see all classes including mesmers only really have Confusion and Torment as their primary damaging conditions and for condition damage to actually be a thing where you build up damage stacks on enemies over time bit by bit 1 stack, 2 stacks, 5 stacks, 7 stacks, 10 stacks, and up and up. But with how over tuned condition cleanses with a majority of classes are being able to shake of 5+ conditions repeatedly over the course of a fight, unless you shot gun someone with 3 damaging conditions and three covering conditions they're functionally indestructible. It's why only condition mirage and condition scourge are even viable now. Mirage has so much variety in damaging stacks and cover conditions, and scourge has a solid variety and access to potentially all conditions through boon corrupt. > > > > > > > > > > > > In general I would prefer mesmers of all stripes to win matches more through their unique team and solo utility rather than their ability to slam down kills. Stuff like Portal, Illusion of Life, Null Field, Arcane Thievery, Signet of Humility and Mass invisibility should be lynchpins of mesmer success across all builds in ranked and AT. But Portal was nerfed and everything else interesting is outright bad aside from Arcane Thievery. It should be a cerebral high skill cap class. But portal was nerfed so condition slammer it is I guess. > > > > > > > > > > > > I really want something done with out Elite Skills that aren't jaunt. Like Mass Invisibility, Signet of Humility and Time Warp. The toolbelt skill for engineer's Elixir S is a 5 second stealth so it's just as long as Mass Invis, it's has a 75% faster cast time and 66% faster cooldown and it's always going to be run traited. The only thing Mass Invisibility has over it is that the pulse is in a wide area around the mesmer which when you want to stealth an ally like to prevent a stomp or something isn't even that helpful compared to how freaking fast Toss Elixir S is and how much more useful the extremely fast cast time is. Like I know classes are going to have inherent symmetries and that you can't always compare X skill or trait to Y skill or trait, but really why is the engineer bonus for picking an already best in slot utility skill a better version of one of our elites in literally every way that matters? > > > > > > > > > > You literally cannot stop making things up about me. And that's just one thread! Even a cursory glance would show tons of suggested nerfs to mirage over the months in most threads about the build. And you couldn't be bothered to look and instead decided to just make things up about me. > > > > > > > > Yup totally truth death to Condi message. Nerf Nerf Nerf! > > > > > > That's pretty much the queue not to read/take seriously anything _you_ say. As in, you keep spitting bullkitten, making up stuff that OP proves you wrong on, so you've nothing left but some flippant last words (above). > > > > > > Also, it's clear you simply want condition damage deleted from the game (as if it's widely viable now). Sounds like you just want to nerf what kills you and you dislike. Much like what you and others accuse OP of. > > > > Yup totally. Excatly what I meant Nerf Nerf nerf > > I'm personally surprised you have the gall to pop back in here after how hard I exposed you last time for lying about me. Lying about you? Lol I don't know you dude. I am just assuming you don't know how to play by reading the fact that you have a problem with all of these skills of every class. Since they r not a problem for a the majority if players who know how to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > @"mortrialus.3062" I think where you went wrong is disclosing that you're a mirage main. While open-minded people would view candor as bolstering credibility, the mirage-hate still runs deep, even after the latest nerf-nails in its coffin. The truly biased ones in this discussion can't see your points past the word mirage. > > @"Chaith.8256" sits here vehemently defending his class and calling you biased in order to discredit what you say, but doesn't actually address the majority of the points you make. People usually do that when you've made good points and they can't objectively counter them. Much easier to accuse bias (as if the same can't be said of oneself) and rocket boot away. There are some legitimate complaints Mortrialus has -- in particular, the fundamental design of condi damage (and cleansing) is flawed. However, in many ways he's complaining about scissors beating paper. Engineer is a natural counter to mesmer, and has been for a long while. Is it OP? Sure, parts of holo are OP (I say this from experience), and a lot of that is due to the powercreep from PoF. But because he's an admitted mirage main complaining about a class that's a natural counter to him, the argument sounds more like "Nerf scissors, it's OP. Buff paper, it's weak. Rock is ok." Almost every class has at least one rock-paper-scissors interaction. As an engineer main, I'm aware of these two rock-paper-scissors interactions with engineer: * Warrior *(generally)* beats engineer -> Engineer *(generally)* beats mesmer -> Mesmer *(generally)* beats warrior. * Thief *(generally)* beats necro -> Necro *(generally)* beats engineer -> Engineer *(generally)* beats thief. This is not true in all scenarios, and if a build is particularly overpowered it will break these trends consistently, regardless of skill level. This was true with condi mirage -- it was so overwhelming that it broke all natural counters. And it was so oppressive that it basically shut warrior out of PvP while it was dominant. Only with the recent nerf of condi mirage and buff of scrapper have we seen greater numbers of warriors returning to PvP. ----- Chaith isn't going out of his way to defend engineer so much as point out inconsistencies in Mortrialus' argument. Mortrialus is downplaying some of the OP abilities of Mirage in order to exaggerate how OP Holo (or scrapper) is. Spin like this convinces nobody who isn't already agreeing with you. ------ If we want to have a discussion about the problems with condi (and cleansing) we can do that, but it's a big systems analysis problem and should have its own thread. There is a definite problem with how condis and cleansing work, and how they are asymmetrical counters (and not in a good way). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Tempest.7584 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" I think where you went wrong is disclosing that you're a mirage main. While open-minded people would view candor as bolstering credibility, the mirage-hate still runs deep, even after the latest nerf-nails in its coffin. The truly biased ones in this discussion can't see your points past the word mirage. > > > > @"Chaith.8256" sits here vehemently defending his class and calling you biased in order to discredit what you say, but doesn't actually address the majority of the points you make. People usually do that when you've made good points and they can't objectively counter them. Much easier to accuse bias (as if the same can't be said of oneself) and rocket boot away. > > There are some legitimate complaints Mortrialus has -- in particular, the fundamental design of condi damage (and cleansing) is flawed. > However, in many ways he's complaining about scissors beating paper. **Engineer is a natural counter to mesmer, and has been for a long while.** Is it OP? Sure, parts of holo are OP (I say this from experience), and a lot of that is due to the powercreep from PoF. But because he's an admitted mirage main complaining about a class that's a natural counter to him, the argument sounds more like "Nerf scissors, it's OP. Buff paper, it's weak. Rock is ok." A certain Holo-main steamer whose name begins with "J" and ends with "s" might beg to differ, going by a rant video wherein he rabidly recited the tool tips of the then meta condi mirage build as proof of its brokenness. The video was widely circulated in the prolific mesmer complaint threads of the time, to much approval by the masses. I've also encountered Holo mains who complain about condi mirage like it's the antichrist. So if "engineer is a natural counter to mesmer, and has been for a long while," it seems these guys didn't get the memo. > Chaith isn't going out of his way to defend engineer so much as point out inconsistencies in Mortrialus' argument. Mortrialus is downplaying some of the OP abilities of Mirage in order to exaggerate how OP Holo (or scrapper) is. Spin like this convinces nobody who isn't already agreeing with you. If he was going for spin, I don't think he would have been so forthcoming about his class. He's quite open about it, going so far as to say "this is my inner mesmer talking..." He pretty much starts off by saying this isn't necessarily a balance discussion but more an opinion piece on things he personally dislikes. It all seems pretty candid I think. That, and he evidently has at least working knowledge of, and ample hours on, a number of other classes. As I said above, many of his points seem to be falling victim to his disclosure of his class. For many on this forum, a cognitive wall goes up at the mere mention of the pink and purple butterfly class. > If we want to have a discussion about the problems with condi (and cleansing) we can do that, but it's a big systems analysis problem and should have its own thread. There is a definite problem with how condis and cleansing work, and how they are asymmetrical counters (and not in a good way). I'm curious what your thoughts on this are, but I think you're right that the topic merits its own thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted March 26, 2019 Author Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > Chaith isn't going out of his way to defend engineer so much as point out inconsistencies in Mortrialus' argument. Mortrialus is downplaying some of the OP abilities of Mirage in order to exaggerate how OP Holo (or scrapper) is. Spin like this convinces nobody who isn't already agreeing with you. I haven't downplayed anything. I've talked mostly about mesmer for over a year now. There has never been a situation for me to talk about things that annoy me on other classes until I made an opportunity with my own thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaith.8256 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > As I said above, many of his points seem to be falling victim to his disclosure of his class. For many on this forum, a cognitive wall goes up at the mere mention of the pink and purple butterfly class. Not even close.. As I pointed out very clearly its not that @"mortrialus.3062" is guilty of pink butterflies, he's guilty of omitting Mesmer from a balanced discussion about all the professions toxic mechanics. Why wouldn't Mesmer be open to scrutiny? Cause there's been enough discussion & complaints about it, he said. I agree with what the OP says about a number of things, but I think he's not qualified to talk about balance if you can't be conscious/critical of all classes. Not because he likes pink butterflies but for example, because he pulls up cross profession analysis (involving Mesmer) that determine with a straight face: - Holosmiths Holo leap is used effectively every 2s (heat mechanic has no effect) - Mirage's Sword Ambush has an effective 10s cooldown cause **simple math**. (Like being able to start at 100 endurance, vigor, energy sigil, adventure runes, Mirage Mirror.) So to say I'm only picking on the OP because he's a Mesmer main, and saying I'm vehemently defending Engi (citation needed), that's foolish & hypocritical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted March 26, 2019 Author Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > As I said above, many of his points seem to be falling victim to his disclosure of his class. For many on this forum, a cognitive wall goes up at the mere mention of the pink and purple butterfly class. > > Not even close.. As I pointed out very clearly its not that @"mortrialus.3062" is guilty of pink butterflies, he's guilty of omitting Mesmer from a balanced discussion about all the professions toxic mechanics. Why wouldn't Mesmer be open to scrutiny? Cause there's been enough discussion & complaints about it, he said. I've talked about mesmer, not stop on this forum, [for over a year now starting with phantasm rework Disenchanter Chronos](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/470034/#Comment_470034 "for over a year now starting with phantasm rework Disenchanter Chronos") (Longer than this example but this thread is very easy to find) all the way up to the last balance patch. Like people in this thread complained about me not talking about Evasive Mirror? [i talked about it already, right here](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/850369/#Comment_850369 "I talked about it already, right here"). There have barely been any opportunities to talk about professions that aren't mesmer and after a year I decided to make my own place to talk about them. > I agree with what the OP says about a number of things, but I think he's not qualified to talk about balance if you can't be conscious/critical of all classes. I'm not "qualified"? Like seriously get out of here with that. Like you give this much of a crap about policing other people's thoughts and complaints on this forum. When people complain about core guard? You aren't up in their threads shouting them down for not being qualified. When the occasional necromancer threads pop up, you aren't in those threads shouting people down for not being qualified. When the odd revenant thread comes up you don't go around telling everyone how unqualified they are. When warrior threads pop up you aren't running around telling everyone they "NOT QUALIFIED!" But it's hard to find an engineer thread old or new in the PvP forums where you aren't in there running interference "Hard countered by spellbreaker so it's fine. Holosmith might need nerfs but we can't nerf core engineer aspects because core is bad. Scrapper hasn't won a MAT yet." Same old lines everyone spouts about their professions as if any other build really gets any of those luxuries. Then suddenly you have a lot to say. And even then you don't usually say anything as bullshit as "NOT QUALIFIED." > - Holosmiths Holo leap is used effectively every 2s (heat mechanic has no effect) > - Mirage's Sword Ambush has an effective 10s cooldown cause **simple math**. (Like being able to start at 100 endurance, vigor, energy sigil, adventure runes, Mirage Mirror.) You can potentially get 7 holo leaps before you over heat, not even counting dodging to vent heat. And if your argument is that you might not have the ability to use all your disengage because you've been fighting and spending resources, that's true of literally every build. I don't think anyone can really deny holosmith has consistently been excellent in literally all areas and roles in conquest except ranked. They're excellent in team fights, they're excellent roamers, they're excellent on the side nodes. They have excellent disengage, excellent if not top tier damage, and excellent sustain. Dueling Specialization on the most popular amulets, Sages and Carrion, doesn't provide much vigor uptime due to only base 5% crit chance. There is a reliable 5 secods of vigor with the heal skill. Chaos has more vigor due to bountiful disenchantment but no one is going to be running sword and chaos on condi. You're only going to see really good vigor uptime and sword on power builds which as roaming build, has less 1vX potential than condition variants and makes a lot more sense from a balancing perspective to be higher mobility. This is getting into the weeds anyway, I'm also not the one that brought up mirage thrust first, anyway. Why don't you go chew out Vargrant for doing so instead. My point isn't to say that Holosmith is as fast as mesmer (Though rocket boot variants actually might be?). My point was that Holosmith has rock solid disengage capacity. Better than average, a lot better than average on the rocket boots variant which are quite common. The holosmiths who go around acting like they're almost as bad as core guardians, or that when a fight goes poorly Toss Elixir S is their single only option are objectively wrong. And at the end of the day that point still stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaith.8256 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > You aren't running around telling everyone they "NOT QUALIFIED!" Baseless whine threads are so ignorable.. this thread is like a try-hard balance doc that fails to observe the first tenant of being impartial. That's the main difference why > But it's hard to find an engineer thread old or new in the PvP forums where you aren't in there running interference "Hard countered by spellbreaker so it's fine. Holosmith might need nerfs but we can't nerf core engineer aspects because core is bad. Scrapper hasn't won a MAT yet." Same old lines everyone spouts about their professions. I think a lot of the nuance around what I say is 100% lost here. I do high level testing of Engi so I share findings where I'm studied up and have tested it vs. good players. - In response to people saying Scrapper is unkillable, I present detailed lists of matchups. I don't say Scrapper is fine, cause Spellbreaker, l2p, even if it goes negative vs. Spellbreaker. I have an Engi thread where I'm suggesting heavy 1vX nerfs to Bulwark Gyro and Sneak Gyro for one, accompanied by improving more neglected areas. - In response to Holosmith needing nerfs but to not nerf core aspects, that's always accompanied by suggestion on how to nerf Holosmith instead of core, instead of just omitting that part, you see? I'm not against nerfs or discussion about nerfs to the class I test the most, that's why I think I have the right mindset to talk about the nuance of these things. - In response to 'but Scrapper hasn't won a MaT yet' that's something I literally never said, because it's obvious, until the weekend passed there hasn't ever been a MaT since the Scrapper re-balance. The nuance which you missed was that I was responding to Mirages who were lamenting the death of Mirage in previous MaTs. Edit: MaT results are not conclusive because the players can be sleeping on some specs, or aren't experts at all specs of course. It's been a handful of Mirages who take that evidence seriously to provide evidence to their claims that Mirage is a victim of complaining. I have added the fact that on NA, serious teams weren't yet considering Scapper for tryhard comps at the time. Maybe that's now changed, but it wouldn't change the nerfs I already suggest to Bulwark & Sneak Gyro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > As I said above, many of his points seem to be falling victim to his disclosure of his class. For many on this forum, a cognitive wall goes up at the mere mention of the pink and purple butterfly class. > > Not even close.. As I pointed out very clearly its not that @"mortrialus.3062" is guilty of pink butterflies, he's guilty of omitting Mesmer from a balanced discussion about all the professions toxic mechanics. Why wouldn't Mesmer be open to scrutiny? Cause there's been enough discussion & complaints about it, he said. > > I agree with what the OP says about a number of things, but I think he's not qualified to talk about balance if you can't be conscious/critical of all classes. Not because he likes pink butterflies but for example, because he pulls up cross profession analysis (involving Mesmer) that determine with a straight face: > > - Holosmiths Holo leap is used effectively every 2s (heat mechanic has no effect) > > - Mirage's Sword Ambush has an effective 10s cooldown cause **simple math**. (Like being able to start at 100 endurance, vigor, energy sigil, adventure runes, Mirage Mirror.) > > So to say I'm only picking on the OP because he's a Mesmer main, and saying I'm vehemently defending Engi (citation needed), that's foolish & hypocritical > Just to reiterate: "Of course it is not objective, the title is "You know what really grinds my gears", and the first sentence literally says "but really this is just stuff I hate". Couldn't be more obvious." He shouldn't have said that sword ambush has 10 seconds cooldown, but he isn't obligated to be critical of all classes in all threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaith.8256 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"Quadox.7834" said: > He shouldn't have said that sword ambush has 10 seconds cooldown, but he isn't obligated to be critical of all classes in all threads. Nobody is obligated to acknowledge the unhealthy aspects of your main class while ranting on all other classes, that's a good point. There was no contract signed upon logging in to the forums. It's just a matter of why should the readers take you seriously if you can't do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted March 26, 2019 Author Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > You aren't running around telling everyone they "NOT QUALIFIED!" > > Baseless whine threads are so ignorable.. this thread is like a try-hard balance doc that fails to observe the first tenant of being impartial. That's the main difference why I never said I was impartial, in fact I went out of my way to point out my general perspective. Much of this I pointed out where things I simply described as unfun to play against, some stuff that might not be great but are unhealthy for the game mode, and that everything is going to vary wildly in value from serious recommendations to just things I'm personally sick of and just find really annoying. Some stuff I don't bring up because I've been talking about it for a lifetime like mesmers in general at this point and other stuff I don't mention because even if I think something is problematic I'm not sure exactly what I want to see done about it. For example, I didn't mention guardian because I have a lot of complicated feelings about it. Firebrand has been the support class since Path of Fire dropped, needing to be toned down each patch. Firebrand still dominates over other support specs like Tempest and Ventari Revenant as a support spec and is still omnipresent in MAT. I don't follow MAT winners and what builds win there much, but has it ever not been part of the winning team composition? I'd personally be surprised. When Path of Fire dropped Firebrand was omnipresent in ranked irregardless of scourges. It was so overtuned most people could do a lot to keep their team alive a long time just with crazy nonsense like Tome 3 having Aegis on Auto Attack. But as the nerfs have rolled in, Firebrands have hit an interesting crossroads where they are still omnipresent in Monthly Automated Tournaments because if anything shines with coordination in this game, it's support. But Firebrands at this point have almost entirely died off in ranked. I genuinely think Arken is the only Firebrand I encounter in ranked anymore. A bit of an exaggeration but they are genuinely very rare. I couldn't have seen more than 5 unique ones all throughout season 15. So on one hand, I like when support is a vital part of team compositions even in ranked. On the other hand it's clearly too dominant in organized settings. So how do you handle Firebrand and support in general? I personally don't even see people duoing with Firebrand in ranked anymore but when both finalists in the MATs run it? Do you just write off support as being something only marginally viable if that in ranked and have that entire niche exist primarily in MATs? If Firebrand gets nerfed to the point where it isn't run in MATs is any other support going to replace it or will you see teams fill that spot with another duelist like a Spellbreaker or all-rounder good specs like holosmith? These are the kinds of thoughts I have about some of the professions I didn't mention and frankly I just don't have any real answer to them. I have similar thoughts about Revenant. A lot of professions left out I'm simply not sure what do do with like that. Stuff like magebane tether still providing too much might, unstoppable union being very very powerful, improvisation introducing an unhealthy randomness to the game mode. That stuff is easy. Adjusting revenant so you see more condition and support variants? Not so much. And some stuff like > I agree with what the OP says about a number of things Are also things I would most have liked to get feedback on rather than anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > He shouldn't have said that sword ambush has 10 seconds cooldown, but he isn't obligated to be critical of all classes in all threads. > > Nobody is obligated to acknowledge the unhealthy aspects of your main class while ranting on all other classes, that's a good point. There was no contract signed upon logging in to the forums. It's just a matter of why should the readers take you seriously if you can't do that. > > Yeah, you are allowed to say "these are a couple things I don't think are fun to play against for X reason". Our fault for commenting, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 this about sums up this thread.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" I think where you went wrong is disclosing that you're a mirage main. While open-minded people would view candor as bolstering credibility, the mirage-hate still runs deep, even after the latest nerf-nails in its coffin. The truly biased ones in this discussion can't see your points past the word mirage. > > > > > > @"Chaith.8256" sits here vehemently defending his class and calling you biased in order to discredit what you say, but doesn't actually address the majority of the points you make. People usually do that when you've made good points and they can't objectively counter them. Much easier to accuse bias (as if the same can't be said of oneself) and rocket boot away. > > > > There are some legitimate complaints Mortrialus has -- in particular, the fundamental design of condi damage (and cleansing) is flawed. > > > However, in many ways he's complaining about scissors beating paper. **Engineer is a natural counter to mesmer, and has been for a long while.** Is it OP? Sure, parts of holo are OP (I say this from experience), and a lot of that is due to the powercreep from PoF. But because he's an admitted mirage main complaining about a class that's a natural counter to him, the argument sounds more like "Nerf scissors, it's OP. Buff paper, it's weak. Rock is ok." > > A certain Holo-main steamer whose name begins with "J" and ends with "s" might beg to differ, going by a rant video wherein he rabidly recited the tool tips of the then meta condi mirage build as proof of its brokenness. The video was widely circulated in the prolific mesmer complaint threads of the time, to much approval by the masses. > > I've also encountered Holo mains who complain about condi mirage like it's the antichrist. So if "engineer is a natural counter to mesmer, and has been for a long while," it seems these guys didn't get the memo. I think a lot of that is just overreaction to how oppressive condi mirage was prior to this patch. For a time, even builds specifically designed to counter it (like prot holo) could get wrecked by it if they weren't careful. The trouble with cross-profession comparisons is they often fail to consider how certain classes play, and the context within which those builds work. I remember the video you were referring to and kind of giggling at the comparison of weapon 1 skills, because he seemed to ignore how melee vs. ranged weapons work, and didn't quite get the mirage cloak mechanic. > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > This is getting into the weeds anyway, I'm also not the one that brought up mirage thrust first, anyway. Why don't you go chew out Vargrant for doing so instead. Lol, I never even brought up mirage thrust, you did. I was simply saying that as a class, engineer is really slow and has trouble disengaging without stealth or being specced for it. Engineer is the slowest profession in the adventurer class, necro is the slowest in the light class, and guardian is the slowest in the heavy class. It's extremely hard IMO to argue otherwise. > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > Chaith isn't going out of his way to defend engineer so much as point out inconsistencies in Mortrialus' argument. Mortrialus is downplaying some of the OP abilities of Mirage in order to exaggerate how OP Holo (or scrapper) is. Spin like this convinces nobody who isn't already agreeing with you. > > If he was going for spin, I don't think he would have been so forthcoming about his class. He's quite open about it, going so far as to say "this is my inner mesmer talking..." He pretty much starts off by saying this isn't necessarily a balance discussion but more an opinion piece on things he personally dislikes. It all seems pretty candid I think. That, and he evidently has at least working knowledge of, and ample hours on, a number of other classes. As I said above, many of his points seem to be falling victim to his disclosure of his class. For many on this forum, a cognitive wall goes up at the mere mention of the pink and purple butterfly class. There is an element of truth to that. A lot of people have a gut reaction to mesmer which I think is a bit over-reactionary. The trick is that when it comes to discussing whether something is OP or not, you shouldn't try to up-play or down-play any particular set of abilities or skills. For example, if we're comparing holo leap and jaunt... yeah, numerically they're identical in terms of distance traveled. But one lets you teleport over obstacles, the other does not. That's a massive difference, and ignoring it just seems like spin. > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > He shouldn't have said that sword ambush has 10 seconds cooldown, but he isn't obligated to be critical of all classes in all threads. > > > > Nobody is obligated to acknowledge the unhealthy aspects of your main class while ranting on all other classes, that's a good point. There was no contract signed upon logging in to the forums. It's just a matter of why should the readers take you seriously if you can't do that. > > > > > > Yeah, you are allowed to say "these are a couple things I don't think are fun to play against for X reason". > > Our fault for commenting, really. You forgot a /s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" I think where you went wrong is disclosing that you're a mirage main. While open-minded people would view candor as bolstering credibility, the mirage-hate still runs deep, even after the latest nerf-nails in its coffin. The truly biased ones in this discussion can't see your points past the word mirage. > > > > > > > > @"Chaith.8256" sits here vehemently defending his class and calling you biased in order to discredit what you say, but doesn't actually address the majority of the points you make. People usually do that when you've made good points and they can't objectively counter them. Much easier to accuse bias (as if the same can't be said of oneself) and rocket boot away. > > > > > > There are some legitimate complaints Mortrialus has -- in particular, the fundamental design of condi damage (and cleansing) is flawed. > > > > > However, in many ways he's complaining about scissors beating paper. **Engineer is a natural counter to mesmer, and has been for a long while.** Is it OP? Sure, parts of holo are OP (I say this from experience), and a lot of that is due to the powercreep from PoF. But because he's an admitted mirage main complaining about a class that's a natural counter to him, the argument sounds more like "Nerf scissors, it's OP. Buff paper, it's weak. Rock is ok." > > > > A certain Holo-main steamer whose name begins with "J" and ends with "s" might beg to differ, going by a rant video wherein he rabidly recited the tool tips of the then meta condi mirage build as proof of its brokenness. The video was widely circulated in the prolific mesmer complaint threads of the time, to much approval by the masses. > > > > I've also encountered Holo mains who complain about condi mirage like it's the antichrist. So if "engineer is a natural counter to mesmer, and has been for a long while," it seems these guys didn't get the memo. > > I think a lot of that is just overreaction to how oppressive condi mirage was prior to this patch. For a time, even builds specifically designed to counter it (like prot holo) could get wrecked by it if they weren't careful. > > The trouble with cross-profession comparisons is they often fail to consider how certain classes play, and the context within which those builds work. I remember the video you were referring to and kind of giggling at the comparison of weapon 1 skills, because he seemed to ignore how melee vs. ranged weapons work, and didn't quite get the mirage cloak mechanic. > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > This is getting into the weeds anyway, I'm also not the one that brought up mirage thrust first, anyway. Why don't you go chew out Vargrant for doing so instead. > > Lol, I never even brought up mirage thrust, you did. I was simply saying that as a class, engineer is really slow and has trouble disengaging without stealth or being specced for it. Engineer is the slowest profession in the adventurer class, necro is the slowest in the light class, and guardian is the slowest in the heavy class. It's extremely hard IMO to argue otherwise. > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > Chaith isn't going out of his way to defend engineer so much as point out inconsistencies in Mortrialus' argument. Mortrialus is downplaying some of the OP abilities of Mirage in order to exaggerate how OP Holo (or scrapper) is. Spin like this convinces nobody who isn't already agreeing with you. > > > > If he was going for spin, I don't think he would have been so forthcoming about his class. He's quite open about it, going so far as to say "this is my inner mesmer talking..." He pretty much starts off by saying this isn't necessarily a balance discussion but more an opinion piece on things he personally dislikes. It all seems pretty candid I think. That, and he evidently has at least working knowledge of, and ample hours on, a number of other classes. As I said above, many of his points seem to be falling victim to his disclosure of his class. For many on this forum, a cognitive wall goes up at the mere mention of the pink and purple butterfly class. > > There is an element of truth to that. A lot of people have a gut reaction to mesmer which I think is a bit over-reactionary. The trick is that when it comes to discussing whether something is OP or not, you shouldn't try to up-play or down-play any particular set of abilities or skills. For example, if we're comparing holo leap and jaunt... yeah, numerically they're identical in terms of distance traveled. But one lets you teleport over obstacles, the other does not. That's a massive difference, and ignoring it just seems like spin. > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > He shouldn't have said that sword ambush has 10 seconds cooldown, but he isn't obligated to be critical of all classes in all threads. > > > > > > Nobody is obligated to acknowledge the unhealthy aspects of your main class while ranting on all other classes, that's a good point. There was no contract signed upon logging in to the forums. It's just a matter of why should the readers take you seriously if you can't do that. > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, you are allowed to say "these are a couple things I don't think are fun to play against for X reason". > > > > Our fault for commenting, really. > > You forgot a /s. What is wrong with my comment that requires sarcasm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" I think where you went wrong is disclosing that you're a mirage main. While open-minded people would view candor as bolstering credibility, the mirage-hate still runs deep, even after the latest nerf-nails in its coffin. The truly biased ones in this discussion can't see your points past the word mirage. > > > > > > > > > > @"Chaith.8256" sits here vehemently defending his class and calling you biased in order to discredit what you say, but doesn't actually address the majority of the points you make. People usually do that when you've made good points and they can't objectively counter them. Much easier to accuse bias (as if the same can't be said of oneself) and rocket boot away. > > > > > > > > There are some legitimate complaints Mortrialus has -- in particular, the fundamental design of condi damage (and cleansing) is flawed. > > > > > > > However, in many ways he's complaining about scissors beating paper. **Engineer is a natural counter to mesmer, and has been for a long while.** Is it OP? Sure, parts of holo are OP (I say this from experience), and a lot of that is due to the powercreep from PoF. But because he's an admitted mirage main complaining about a class that's a natural counter to him, the argument sounds more like "Nerf scissors, it's OP. Buff paper, it's weak. Rock is ok." > > > > > > A certain Holo-main steamer whose name begins with "J" and ends with "s" might beg to differ, going by a rant video wherein he rabidly recited the tool tips of the then meta condi mirage build as proof of its brokenness. The video was widely circulated in the prolific mesmer complaint threads of the time, to much approval by the masses. > > > > > > I've also encountered Holo mains who complain about condi mirage like it's the antichrist. So if "engineer is a natural counter to mesmer, and has been for a long while," it seems these guys didn't get the memo. > > > > I think a lot of that is just overreaction to how oppressive condi mirage was prior to this patch. For a time, even builds specifically designed to counter it (like prot holo) could get wrecked by it if they weren't careful. > > > > The trouble with cross-profession comparisons is they often fail to consider how certain classes play, and the context within which those builds work. I remember the video you were referring to and kind of giggling at the comparison of weapon 1 skills, because he seemed to ignore how melee vs. ranged weapons work, and didn't quite get the mirage cloak mechanic. > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > This is getting into the weeds anyway, I'm also not the one that brought up mirage thrust first, anyway. Why don't you go chew out Vargrant for doing so instead. > > > > Lol, I never even brought up mirage thrust, you did. I was simply saying that as a class, engineer is really slow and has trouble disengaging without stealth or being specced for it. Engineer is the slowest profession in the adventurer class, necro is the slowest in the light class, and guardian is the slowest in the heavy class. It's extremely hard IMO to argue otherwise. > > > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > Chaith isn't going out of his way to defend engineer so much as point out inconsistencies in Mortrialus' argument. Mortrialus is downplaying some of the OP abilities of Mirage in order to exaggerate how OP Holo (or scrapper) is. Spin like this convinces nobody who isn't already agreeing with you. > > > > > > If he was going for spin, I don't think he would have been so forthcoming about his class. He's quite open about it, going so far as to say "this is my inner mesmer talking..." He pretty much starts off by saying this isn't necessarily a balance discussion but more an opinion piece on things he personally dislikes. It all seems pretty candid I think. That, and he evidently has at least working knowledge of, and ample hours on, a number of other classes. As I said above, many of his points seem to be falling victim to his disclosure of his class. For many on this forum, a cognitive wall goes up at the mere mention of the pink and purple butterfly class. > > > > There is an element of truth to that. A lot of people have a gut reaction to mesmer which I think is a bit over-reactionary. The trick is that when it comes to discussing whether something is OP or not, you shouldn't try to up-play or down-play any particular set of abilities or skills. For example, if we're comparing holo leap and jaunt... yeah, numerically they're identical in terms of distance traveled. But one lets you teleport over obstacles, the other does not. That's a massive difference, and ignoring it just seems like spin. > > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > > He shouldn't have said that sword ambush has 10 seconds cooldown, but he isn't obligated to be critical of all classes in all threads. > > > > > > > > Nobody is obligated to acknowledge the unhealthy aspects of your main class while ranting on all other classes, that's a good point. There was no contract signed upon logging in to the forums. It's just a matter of why should the readers take you seriously if you can't do that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, you are allowed to say "these are a couple things I don't think are fun to play against for X reason". > > > > > > Our fault for commenting, really. > > > > You forgot a /s. > > What is wrong with my comment that requires sarcasm? Here I have bolded it: > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > He shouldn't have said that sword ambush has 10 seconds cooldown, but he isn't obligated to be critical of all classes in all threads. > > > > Nobody is obligated to acknowledge the unhealthy aspects of your main class while ranting on all other classes, that's a good point. There was no contract signed upon logging in to the forums. It's just a matter of why should the readers take you seriously if you can't do that. > > > > > > Yeah, you are allowed to say "these are a couple things I don't think are fun to play against for X reason". > > **Our fault for commenting, really.** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"Chaith.8256" said: > Not even close.. As I pointed out very clearly its not that @"mortrialus.3062" is guilty of pink butterflies, he's guilty of omitting Mesmer from a balanced discussion about all the professions toxic mechanics. Why wouldn't Mesmer be open to scrutiny? Cause there's been enough discussion & complaints about it, he said. Just want to chime in here and say that, for what little my opinion is worth, I generally consider @"mortrialus.3062" and @"Solori.6025" to be level headed mesmer mains and would suggest that their efforts to be well rounded about balance not get glossed over because of the nature of this thread. They have been active participants in the multitudes of threads we had that were varying flavors of "Mes is OP" up to this point, and have repeatedly voiced their concerns for power builds (specifically, the builds that -werent- causing the issue) being shaved because condi builds were too strong. (yknow, that thing we hate happening to our class of choice when something about it is too strong.) Keep in mind that we all had issues with condi mesmers, but it took Arenanet several iterations of balancing power aspects before they settled on what the actual problem was (or, at least a solution that mutes the actual problem). It's perfectly understandable that they would be upset about all the other stuff in the game at this time, given that nothing was given back to the power aspect of Mirages once Anet shaved the core mechanic and the condi output itself. There are definitely some hangups Mort has with some classes that I find strange, but we have a thread open right now that is complaining about why warriors cannot be immobilized when they are using a movement skill, and I was whining about GS mirror blade somewhere around the time we had chronobunker, IIRC. Sure they're biased, but everyone here is biased. Instead of just using "you're biased" to try to ignore the argument they are presenting, attack the actual argument and maybe you'll get a glimpse as to where they are coming from. At the very least you'll get a giggle out of it. I am in no way saying Mirage or Mesmer is underpowered at the moment, but it's pretty easy to see why they'd be upset. This same thing happened to Berserker when its condi was considered too strong, and I'm STILL waiting for some power to come back to that spec. Just my two bits, with whatever errors there are. Let's not get the thread locked with ad hominems please. Also, don't take this as some kind of pity. It is reserved only for the individuals I mentioned above and those that have the same or similar mentality. I'm just of the opinion that we should pay attention to those things when we see them. (#)Improvisationisfine (#)Stilllaughingatpeoplethatwerecarriedbymirrorcloak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" I think where you went wrong is disclosing that you're a mirage main. While open-minded people would view candor as bolstering credibility, the mirage-hate still runs deep, even after the latest nerf-nails in its coffin. The truly biased ones in this discussion can't see your points past the word mirage. > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Chaith.8256" sits here vehemently defending his class and calling you biased in order to discredit what you say, but doesn't actually address the majority of the points you make. People usually do that when you've made good points and they can't objectively counter them. Much easier to accuse bias (as if the same can't be said of oneself) and rocket boot away. > > > > > > > > > > There are some legitimate complaints Mortrialus has -- in particular, the fundamental design of condi damage (and cleansing) is flawed. > > > > > > > > > However, in many ways he's complaining about scissors beating paper. **Engineer is a natural counter to mesmer, and has been for a long while.** Is it OP? Sure, parts of holo are OP (I say this from experience), and a lot of that is due to the powercreep from PoF. But because he's an admitted mirage main complaining about a class that's a natural counter to him, the argument sounds more like "Nerf scissors, it's OP. Buff paper, it's weak. Rock is ok." > > > > > > > > A certain Holo-main steamer whose name begins with "J" and ends with "s" might beg to differ, going by a rant video wherein he rabidly recited the tool tips of the then meta condi mirage build as proof of its brokenness. The video was widely circulated in the prolific mesmer complaint threads of the time, to much approval by the masses. > > > > > > > > I've also encountered Holo mains who complain about condi mirage like it's the antichrist. So if "engineer is a natural counter to mesmer, and has been for a long while," it seems these guys didn't get the memo. > > > > > > I think a lot of that is just overreaction to how oppressive condi mirage was prior to this patch. For a time, even builds specifically designed to counter it (like prot holo) could get wrecked by it if they weren't careful. > > > > > > The trouble with cross-profession comparisons is they often fail to consider how certain classes play, and the context within which those builds work. I remember the video you were referring to and kind of giggling at the comparison of weapon 1 skills, because he seemed to ignore how melee vs. ranged weapons work, and didn't quite get the mirage cloak mechanic. > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > This is getting into the weeds anyway, I'm also not the one that brought up mirage thrust first, anyway. Why don't you go chew out Vargrant for doing so instead. > > > > > > Lol, I never even brought up mirage thrust, you did. I was simply saying that as a class, engineer is really slow and has trouble disengaging without stealth or being specced for it. Engineer is the slowest profession in the adventurer class, necro is the slowest in the light class, and guardian is the slowest in the heavy class. It's extremely hard IMO to argue otherwise. > > > > > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > Chaith isn't going out of his way to defend engineer so much as point out inconsistencies in Mortrialus' argument. Mortrialus is downplaying some of the OP abilities of Mirage in order to exaggerate how OP Holo (or scrapper) is. Spin like this convinces nobody who isn't already agreeing with you. > > > > > > > > If he was going for spin, I don't think he would have been so forthcoming about his class. He's quite open about it, going so far as to say "this is my inner mesmer talking..." He pretty much starts off by saying this isn't necessarily a balance discussion but more an opinion piece on things he personally dislikes. It all seems pretty candid I think. That, and he evidently has at least working knowledge of, and ample hours on, a number of other classes. As I said above, many of his points seem to be falling victim to his disclosure of his class. For many on this forum, a cognitive wall goes up at the mere mention of the pink and purple butterfly class. > > > > > > There is an element of truth to that. A lot of people have a gut reaction to mesmer which I think is a bit over-reactionary. The trick is that when it comes to discussing whether something is OP or not, you shouldn't try to up-play or down-play any particular set of abilities or skills. For example, if we're comparing holo leap and jaunt... yeah, numerically they're identical in terms of distance traveled. But one lets you teleport over obstacles, the other does not. That's a massive difference, and ignoring it just seems like spin. > > > > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > > > He shouldn't have said that sword ambush has 10 seconds cooldown, but he isn't obligated to be critical of all classes in all threads. > > > > > > > > > > Nobody is obligated to acknowledge the unhealthy aspects of your main class while ranting on all other classes, that's a good point. There was no contract signed upon logging in to the forums. It's just a matter of why should the readers take you seriously if you can't do that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, you are allowed to say "these are a couple things I don't think are fun to play against for X reason". > > > > > > > > Our fault for commenting, really. > > > > > > You forgot a /s. > > > > What is wrong with my comment that requires sarcasm? > > Here I have bolded it: > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > He shouldn't have said that sword ambush has 10 seconds cooldown, but he isn't obligated to be critical of all classes in all threads. > > > > > > Nobody is obligated to acknowledge the unhealthy aspects of your main class while ranting on all other classes, that's a good point. There was no contract signed upon logging in to the forums. It's just a matter of why should the readers take you seriously if you can't do that. > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, you are allowed to say "these are a couple things I don't think are fun to play against for X reason". > > > > **Our fault for commenting, really.** Well it is? I mean you can't blame op for the > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" I think where you went wrong is disclosing that you're a mirage main. While open-minded people would view candor as bolstering credibility, the mirage-hate still runs deep, even after the latest nerf-nails in its coffin. The truly biased ones in this discussion can't see your points past the word mirage. > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Chaith.8256" sits here vehemently defending his class and calling you biased in order to discredit what you say, but doesn't actually address the majority of the points you make. People usually do that when you've made good points and they can't objectively counter them. Much easier to accuse bias (as if the same can't be said of oneself) and rocket boot away. > > > > > > > > > > There are some legitimate complaints Mortrialus has -- in particular, the fundamental design of condi damage (and cleansing) is flawed. > > > > > > > > > However, in many ways he's complaining about scissors beating paper. **Engineer is a natural counter to mesmer, and has been for a long while.** Is it OP? Sure, parts of holo are OP (I say this from experience), and a lot of that is due to the powercreep from PoF. But because he's an admitted mirage main complaining about a class that's a natural counter to him, the argument sounds more like "Nerf scissors, it's OP. Buff paper, it's weak. Rock is ok." > > > > > > > > A certain Holo-main steamer whose name begins with "J" and ends with "s" might beg to differ, going by a rant video wherein he rabidly recited the tool tips of the then meta condi mirage build as proof of its brokenness. The video was widely circulated in the prolific mesmer complaint threads of the time, to much approval by the masses. > > > > > > > > I've also encountered Holo mains who complain about condi mirage like it's the antichrist. So if "engineer is a natural counter to mesmer, and has been for a long while," it seems these guys didn't get the memo. > > > > > > I think a lot of that is just overreaction to how oppressive condi mirage was prior to this patch. For a time, even builds specifically designed to counter it (like prot holo) could get wrecked by it if they weren't careful. > > > > > > The trouble with cross-profession comparisons is they often fail to consider how certain classes play, and the context within which those builds work. I remember the video you were referring to and kind of giggling at the comparison of weapon 1 skills, because he seemed to ignore how melee vs. ranged weapons work, and didn't quite get the mirage cloak mechanic. > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > This is getting into the weeds anyway, I'm also not the one that brought up mirage thrust first, anyway. Why don't you go chew out Vargrant for doing so instead. > > > > > > Lol, I never even brought up mirage thrust, you did. I was simply saying that as a class, engineer is really slow and has trouble disengaging without stealth or being specced for it. Engineer is the slowest profession in the adventurer class, necro is the slowest in the light class, and guardian is the slowest in the heavy class. It's extremely hard IMO to argue otherwise. > > > > > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > Chaith isn't going out of his way to defend engineer so much as point out inconsistencies in Mortrialus' argument. Mortrialus is downplaying some of the OP abilities of Mirage in order to exaggerate how OP Holo (or scrapper) is. Spin like this convinces nobody who isn't already agreeing with you. > > > > > > > > If he was going for spin, I don't think he would have been so forthcoming about his class. He's quite open about it, going so far as to say "this is my inner mesmer talking..." He pretty much starts off by saying this isn't necessarily a balance discussion but more an opinion piece on things he personally dislikes. It all seems pretty candid I think. That, and he evidently has at least working knowledge of, and ample hours on, a number of other classes. As I said above, many of his points seem to be falling victim to his disclosure of his class. For many on this forum, a cognitive wall goes up at the mere mention of the pink and purple butterfly class. > > > > > > There is an element of truth to that. A lot of people have a gut reaction to mesmer which I think is a bit over-reactionary. The trick is that when it comes to discussing whether something is OP or not, you shouldn't try to up-play or down-play any particular set of abilities or skills. For example, if we're comparing holo leap and jaunt... yeah, numerically they're identical in terms of distance traveled. But one lets you teleport over obstacles, the other does not. That's a massive difference, and ignoring it just seems like spin. > > > > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > > > He shouldn't have said that sword ambush has 10 seconds cooldown, but he isn't obligated to be critical of all classes in all threads. > > > > > > > > > > Nobody is obligated to acknowledge the unhealthy aspects of your main class while ranting on all other classes, that's a good point. There was no contract signed upon logging in to the forums. It's just a matter of why should the readers take you seriously if you can't do that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, you are allowed to say "these are a couple things I don't think are fun to play against for X reason". > > > > > > > > Our fault for commenting, really. > > > > > > You forgot a /s. > > > > Here I have bolded it: > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > He shouldn't have said that sword ambush has 10 seconds cooldown, but he isn't obligated to be critical of all classes in all threads. > > > > > > Nobody is obligated to acknowledge the unhealthy aspects of your main class while ranting on all other classes, that's a good point. There was no contract signed upon logging in to the forums. It's just a matter of why should the readers take you seriously if you can't do that. > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, you are allowed to say "these are a couple things I don't think are fun to play against for X reason". > > > > **Our fault for commenting, really.** Cant blame op for the attention the thread got. If people think thread start is bad due to not being objective etc they can avoid commenting, that's all. edit: hm, the formatting on this chain got a bit confusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaith.8256 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > Just my two bits, with whatever errors there are. Let's not get the thread locked with ad hominems please. You're a pretty reasonable guy. Before I say someone is biased I definitely look at the argument first, it doesn't boil down to a 3 word post saying 'u r biased'. Maybe you didn't read my posts, I did have a problem with a few of the OP's arguments and didn't just say he was biased without explanation. - Ranger's Unstoppable union's large up-times of unblockable projectiles are unhealthy and frustrating for the game, but Mesmer's Mirror evasive mirrors were covered enough in other threads before so its fine to not draw attention to a trait directly related to projectiles with such an unhealthy and frustrating mechanic. If Unstoppable union grinds your gears, but evasive mirrors don't, then in my opinion that makes you biased. - Mirage Sword Ambush, we've talked about this. If you make such obviously low-balled argument for one class ability's power, and you directly compare it to another class ability at their unmitigated best without the limitation set on it, then you did a pretty good job of being biased. The OP has said he'd rather hear feedback on things that I agree with, which is not surprising since he's "just one guy who happens to think he has the best opinions about some things" and would like to hear how good his opinions are, like we all probably would: - Gyros are unpredictable and unreadable. I also suggest that Gyros have a buff bar icon similar to Well of Power and so on. - Sneak Gyro being too long a stealth. It's uncomfortable to stealth for 18-21s, please slash it in half. - Elementalist in general being disappointing. - Condition damage in general being weak, but I would add with the exception of Mesmer and Necro. Other things that grind his gears seem to be pretty random. Many which have been around since launch in the same or similar fashions. So don't act like I'm just on here slinging baseless personal attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > Just my two bits, with whatever errors there are. Let's not get the thread locked with ad hominems please. > > You're a pretty reasonable guy. Before I say someone is biased I definitely look at the argument first, it doesn't boil down to a 3 word post saying 'u r biased'. Maybe you didn't read my posts, I did have a problem with a few of the OP's arguments and didn't just say he was biased without explanation. > > - Ranger's Unstoppable union's large up-times of unblockable projectiles are unhealthy and frustrating for the game, but Mesmer's Mirror evasive mirrors were covered enough in other threads before so its fine to not draw attention to a trait directly related to projectiles with such an unhealthy and frustrating mechanic. If Unstoppable union grinds your gears, but evasive mirrors don't, then in my opinion that makes you biased. > - Mirage Sword Ambush, we've talked about this. If you make such obviously low-balled argument for one class ability's power, and you directly compare it to another class ability at their unmitigated best without the limitation set on it, then you did a pretty good job of being biased. > > The OP has said he'd rather hear feedback on things that I agree with, which is not surprising since he's "just one guy who happens to think he has the best opinions about some things" and would like to hear how good his opinions are, like we all probably would: > > - Gyros are unpredictable and unreadable. I also suggest that Gyros have a buff bar icon similar to Well of Power and so on. > - Sneak Gyro being too long a stealth. It's uncomfortable to stealth for 18-21s, please slash it in half. > - Elementalist in general being disappointing. > - Condition damage in general being weak, but I would add with the exception of Mesmer and Necro. > > > So don't act like I'm just on here slinging baseless personal attacks. I really like how you emphasize on not touching engineer core class and amount of passive procs it has ... meanwhile thats the only way anet use to nerf mesmer all the time. Evasive mirror is dumb on mirage only and never been an issue with core/chrono (I never used and up for its ICD/removal. Would be better for everyone). Just as much as I dislike scepter. Sword ambush limited by user endurance, doesnt sounds like a limitation ? In fact everyone are biased and you arent exception. > Many which have been around since launch in the same or similar fashions. i'm pretty sure because how ridiculous they have become paired with elite specs ? Wait a second... rampage is not on the list ? I have questions now ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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