Discipline (more specifically, "Fast Hands")

[Odik.4587]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > @"melandru.3876" said:

> > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > > Not sure If i understand you correctly but warrior can pretty much stunlock you to death thanks to boonrip on spellbreaker and immob on CC also will prevent them from evading. You know ppl do only 1 dodge mechanically after breakstun, but they cant because immob, so they dont expect they wont dodge, mind games...

> > > > > I agree ranger is dumb and its damage just ridiculous but its not something we have control over. Such biased hypocrites as Trevor get in the way of bringing justified nerfs on this using exact same arguments as certain mirage players :)

> > > > > (I thought you would be hostile to me since I main mesmer... :blush: )

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > There are exceptions, I have respect for countless and zeromis for example. I have respect for Hiro/Talgo for ranger mains as well (sad he doesn't play anymore, he would tank people on a point when everybody was saying ranger was underpowered XD)

> > > >

> > > > Also, now that I think about it, maybe **unsuspecting foe spellbreaker might become strong** (THIS is how we should be discussing people)

> > > >

> > > > Spellbreaker might start being able to do damage with soldier amulet in WvW, and with Cavalier amulet in PvP IF baseline fasthands is implemented. Any thoughts on that? Arms + Def + Spellbreaker, Str + Arms + Spellbreaker for example.

> > >

> > > amulets in wvw?

> > > new player detected..

> > Wow he said soldier amulet ! which doesnt exist in pvp for a long time ...may be thats you who is the new ?(also that obvious he meant soldier armor) Your thread about weapon swapping is a meme dude, you cant get sigils on swap faster than its CD because they would be still on CD.

> > @"BlackTruth.6813"

> > Everyone hate me tho , why wouldnt you hate me as well ? :open_mouth:

>

> Well.. who else is willing to talk about builds that "might become OP" if baseline fast hands comes out? You can see why from there.

 

I said my opinion ,defense str tether might become too strong . If something gets too strong ... You know anet nerf it with 50% first but in mirage case I even seen 67% on axe ambush... careful :expressionless:

Once again I'l make emphasis on this :

>Ask to fix this inconsistent rush, dagger leaps,both ,they arent connecting a lot and ppl abuse it against you by walking into you (or something like this)

And somehow do something with berserker . I have an idea what would make it better and logical and fair : each time you enter berserk mode you gain two or three stacks of adrenal health (if defense) and 2-3 stacks of berserker power because you need full 3 adrenaline bars to activate it. You pay a price and should get rewarded accordingly .2 because you can use full burst right after ,so its your third adrenaline bar lets say. Wouldnt be hard to implement even

[BlackTruth.6813]

>I said my opinion ,defense str tether might become too strong . If something gets too strong ... You know anet nerf it with 50% first but in mirage case I even seen 67% on >axe ambush... careful :expressionless:

>Once again I'l make emphasis on this :

 

I can respect someone that talks like this. That's why no hate. (People who make real talk, not bad excuses for "no baseline fast hands"). Basically you're the only one who responded properly so far and I can see why STR DEF Spell might be a problem.

 

Basically proper response = respect

[melandru.3876]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"melandru.3876" said:

> > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > Not sure If i understand you correctly but warrior can pretty much stunlock you to death thanks to boonrip on spellbreaker and immob on CC also will prevent them from evading. You know ppl do only 1 dodge mechanically after breakstun, but they cant because immob, so they dont expect they wont dodge, mind games...

> > > > I agree ranger is dumb and its damage just ridiculous but its not something we have control over. Such biased hypocrites as Trevor get in the way of bringing justified nerfs on this using exact same arguments as certain mirage players :)

> > > > (I thought you would be hostile to me since I main mesmer... :blush: )

> > > >

> > >

> > > There are exceptions, I have respect for countless and zeromis for example. I have respect for Hiro/Talgo for ranger mains as well (sad he doesn't play anymore, he would tank people on a point when everybody was saying ranger was underpowered XD)

> > >

> > > Also, now that I think about it, maybe **unsuspecting foe spellbreaker might become strong** (THIS is how we should be discussing people)

> > >

> > > Spellbreaker might start being able to do damage with soldier amulet in WvW, and with Cavalier amulet in PvP IF baseline fasthands is implemented. Any thoughts on that? Arms + Def + Spellbreaker, Str + Arms + Spellbreaker for example.

> >

> > amulets in wvw?

> > new player detected..

> Wow he said soldier amulet ! which doesnt exist in pvp for a long time ...may be thats you who is the new ?(also that obvious he meant soldier armor) Your thread about weapon swapping is a meme dude, you cant get sigils on swap faster than its CD because they would be still on CD.

> @"BlackTruth.6813"

> Everyone hate me tho , why wouldnt you hate me as well ? :open_mouth:

 

was the bait not obvious enough?

it is mandatory in a forum to make a thread, fabricate some facts and make that the reason, and only reason to ask for buffs/nerfs

wait till you see my new thread that will pop up tommorow

 

"unblockable signet is way to strong in some builds, 12 seconds unblockable on a 20 seconds cooldown is even worse than what rangers have (4 seconds on 10 second cooldown)

 

as off lately i see more and more str/arms/berserker builds both in ranked and unranked, atm they can be dealt with with relative ease, you can burst them after they tried to land thier attempts at nuking you, but then they are left defenseless when caught on the wrong weaponset (rifle) which has no utility but a knockback.

 

now imagine if fast hands become baseline, then the only counter (minus line of sight) is erased, and this build will be very annoying, or near impossible to deal with once you get +1'd"

 

 

 

^ how is that for a starter?

 

might even suggesting a nerf to unblockable signet, to make it like revenant, only x attacks will become unblockable, instead of full duration ON TOP of why baseline fast hands is a bad idea

 

ah yes, this might work

[BlackTruth.6813]

You realize that STR ARMS zerker gunflame dies instantly to every class right? And you can simply catch the Warrior after you see two dodges and whirlwind slash. Baseline fast hands won't magically make that build OP when people actually know how to catch you when your shield is down your when whirlwind attack is down on GS..

 

But this is a good start and how DISCUSSIONS should have been from the beginning. Good character development.

[Odik.4587]

FH just isnt something that warrior desperately needs right now . Berserker elite spec is dead for how long?

And come on STR ARMS BERSERKER...? Im not even sure if its serious :disappointed: Life on a bottom of silver probably hard.. Just tell your team to focus him and you wouldnt need any counterplay , he will die instant as someone would start looking his way ... Once this signet wonders would start to be seen in AT's I would believe you then :)

If +1 bothers you use LoS .thats it

[melandru.3876]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> You realize that STR ARMS zerker gunflame dies instantly to every class right? And you can simply catch the Warrior after you see two dodges and whirlwind slash. Baseline fast hands won't magically make that build OP when people actually know how to catch you when your shield is down your when whirlwind attack is down on GS..

>

> But this is a good start and how DISCUSSIONS should have been from the beginning. Good character development.

 

what magically build do you use, greatsword +x/shield+rifle

no wonder why you are so good and want weapon swap, you allready play with 3 sets

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"melandru.3876" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > You realize that STR ARMS zerker gunflame dies instantly to every class right? And you can simply catch the Warrior after you see two dodges and whirlwind slash. Baseline fast hands won't magically make that build OP when people actually know how to catch you when your shield is down your when whirlwind attack is down on GS..

> >

> > But this is a good start and how DISCUSSIONS should have been from the beginning. Good character development.

>

> what magically build do you use, greatsword +x/shield+rifle

> no wonder why you are so good and want weapon swap, you allready play with 3 sets

 

Rifle + GS or Rifle + x/shield is what I meant.

 

If you are Rifle + GS, and you're on GS with baseline fast hands, all they have to do is wait for 2-3 dodges + whirlwind attack, and you die.

 

If you are on Rifle + x/shield, then they simply have to wait 2-3 dodges and for the block to go down and you die.

 

No defense tree isn't hard to kill, like you said you can kill people fast but you die fast too.

 

You can say you can rampage in the middle of it, but most of the time that will be a bad rampage and you'll get blind spammed/weakness spammed to death. Fast hands baseline won't make STR ARMS zerker op, trust me.

[melandru.3876]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > @"melandru.3876" said:

> > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > You realize that STR ARMS zerker gunflame dies instantly to every class right? And you can simply catch the Warrior after you see two dodges and whirlwind slash. Baseline fast hands won't magically make that build OP when people actually know how to catch you when your shield is down your when whirlwind attack is down on GS..

> > >

> > > But this is a good start and how DISCUSSIONS should have been from the beginning. Good character development.

> >

> > what magically build do you use, greatsword +x/shield+rifle

> > no wonder why you are so good and want weapon swap, you allready play with 3 sets

>

> Rifle + GS or Rifle + x/shield is what I meant.

>

> If you are Rifle + GS, and you're on GS with baseline fast hands, all they have to do is wait for 2-3 dodges + whirlwind attack, and you die.

>

> If you are on Rifle + x/shield, then they simply have to wait 2-3 dodges and for the block to go down and you die.

>

> No defense tree isn't hard to kill, like you said you can kill people fast but you die fast too.

>

> You can say you can rampage in the middle of it, but most of the time that will be a bad rampage and you'll get blind spammed/weakness spammed to death. Fast hands baseline won't make STR ARMS zerker op, trust me.

 

but you missed a tiny detail in my post.

 

the "+1" part, which is crucial

 

say i'm a scrapper/boonbeast/chronotank my task is to contest, and hold a sidenode as long as possible, while we control another (fb+scourge)

if a gunflame war +1's me (scrapper vs spellbreaker becomes now scrapper vs spellbreaker +gunflame)

 

previously i could stalemate the spellbreaker untill he either got bored, +1'd me and i'd still outplay it, or we +1 him and he retreats.

still the same when we are +1'd, i would ask our thief/rev/mirage to come over,kill the gunflame, and focus the spellbreaker

 

with fast hands baseline, that would be a major issue because the gunflame warrior would be more able to disengage, reposition or just retreat (mobility equally to boonbeast) (damage equally to zerker ranger) .

 

 

every fight should be on a node, if you fight openly, in a match you will and should be calld out for it those fights are trivial, esp if you are losing

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Xaylin.1860" said:

> This discussion is ridiculus. I have been very constructive since I'm all for theory crafting or improving the game. However, I've been mostly met with insults, childish rants or at best irritating ignorance.

>

> I'll see myself and my deflective strawman arguments out so you can find bliss in unreflected agreement on the future for this class. Despite your agreement, it will probably not include baseline FH.

>

> TL:DR

> Your loss. Have a great time. ?

 

Before you leave, please explain how would, in your opinion, FH baseline make warrior broken. What builds would be so strong that it would create powercreep.

I am glad that you came up with some alternatives, but also you are the one who accused me for demanding answers from people. All I did was asking proper questions, if people here argument, I expect them to be knowledgeable about the class well enough to provide examples and in depth explanations :) Isn't that essential for this kind of topic? But those people avoid that for some reason. If their arguments are so good, why not back them up with accurate examples that are related with the profession?

 

And since you mentioned irritating ignorance, look at @"Obtena.7952" 's replies. He/she proposes nerfs instead. Without realizing how impactful this whole nerf would be on warrior class in every game mode. That nerfing FH and/or Discipline would basically obliterated vast majority of time-tested builds and rotations, that it would make a lot of good builds worse only to promote weak and less useful builds for nowadays standards. That is flawed and ignorat argumenting right there. Just because FH (and whole Discipline traitline) makes using warrior's main mechanics much more effective (including faster-paced weapon skill usage), doesn't mean it is too strong, overpowered and now we should nerf what is good on a class just to equalize it with bad. That is lacking common sense so much...

Where were all those people when it was like this for ages? It seems that they suddenly see opportunity to nerf warrior, so why not, even though all those arguments are based on being ingorant to warrior profession and the repercussions of proposed nerfs. Their mentality seems to be "warrior can handle big nerfs to every vast majority of builds they have been using for years, its ok, everybody else can live with that, we dont play that class that much anyway".

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"Xaylin.1860" said:

> > This discussion is ridiculus. I have been very constructive since I'm all for theory crafting or improving the game. However, I've been mostly met with insults, childish rants or at best irritating ignorance.

> >

> > I'll see myself and my deflective strawman arguments out so you can find bliss in unreflected agreement on the future for this class. Despite your agreement, it will probably not include baseline FH.

> >

> > TL:DR

> > Your loss. Have a great time. ?

>

> Before you leave, please explain how would, in your opinion, FH baseline make warrior broken. What builds would be so strong that it would create powercreep.

> I am glad that you came up with some alternatives, but also you are the one who accused me for demanding answers from people. All I did was asking proper questions, if people here argument, I expect them to be knowledgeable about the class well enough to provide examples and in depth explanations :) Isn't that essential for this kind of topic? But those people avoid that for some reason. If their arguments are so good, why not back them up with accurate examples that are related with the profession?

>

> And since you mentioned irritating ignorance, look at @"Obtena.7952" 's replies. He/she proposes nerfs instead. Without realizing how impactful this whole nerf would be on warrior class in every game mode. That nerfing FH and/or Discipline would basically obliterated vast majority of time-tested builds and rotations, that it would make a lot of good builds worse only to promote weak and less useful builds for nowadays standards. That is flawed and ignorat argumenting right there. Just because FH (and whole Discipline traitline) makes using warrior's main mechanics much more effective (including faster-paced weapon skill usage), doesn't mean it is too strong, overpowered and now we should nerf what is good on a class just to equalize it with bad. That is lacking common sense so much...

> Where were all those people when it was like this for ages? It seems that they suddenly see opportunity to nerf warrior, so why not, even though all those arguments are based on being ingorant to warrior profession and the repercussions of proposed nerfs. Their mentality seems to be "warrior can handle big nerfs to every vast majority of builds they have been using for years, its ok, everybody else can live with that, we dont play that class that much anyway".

 

At least melandru has improved his behavior, what does Xaylin do? Cop out, give up, and LEGIT showed lack of common sense when he said "you're not willing to sacrifice anything." God tier disgusting right there. Now we know who can be taken seriously and who can't.

[Obtena.7952]

All of the discussion about if FH makes things OP or if there is powercreep, how ever you want to define it, are irrelevant. Just because people aren't willing to engage you in a speculation game doesn't mean it's "OK" to make FH baseline. The need just doesn't exist and there are greater issues at play here than if FH baseline 'hurts' to implement. There are lots of criteria that you aren't even considering.

 

The burden of proof is yours to show FH baseline is necessary and no one elses. It's not about if it would be nice or if it 'isn't a big deal' or whatever vague ideas you present. I urge you to go and see how Anet communicates game changes for patches to players if you understand the important aspects of what drives changes in the game.

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> All of the discussion about if FH makes things OP or if there is powercreep, how ever you want to define it, are irrelevant. Just because people aren't willing to engage you in a speculation game doesn't mean it's "OK" to make FH baseline.

 

So now we call it speculation game. Interesting. So why did you wrote something that implied that the new Discipline minor trait would be so strong that it would create powercreep for Discipline builds? Speculation.

[Obtena.7952]

Well, you are speculating that FH baseline doesn't increase power to all warrior builds. I mean, i know you have your own 'special' definition of what power creep is but that still doesn't change the fact that granting all warrior builds FH and it's replacement in Discipline will obviously give them more power. I mean, at this point, I can't take anything you say with any sort of honesty because you can't even admit it's an overall class power increase.

 

I'm not debating with you how strong it is ... but you already know how strong it is because you already told us what bloody murder people would cry if it got nerfed. I just don't see why you can't be honest about the impact FH has on warrior builds; it's obviously why you want it baseline.

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > All of the discussion about if FH makes things OP or if there is powercreep, how ever you want to define it, are irrelevant. Just because people aren't willing to engage you in a speculation game doesn't mean it's "OK" to make FH baseline.

>

> So now we call it speculation game. Interesting. So why did you wrote something that implied that the new Discipline minor trait would be so strong that it would create powercreep for Discipline builds? Speculation.

 

Also, LOL. There we go, hard exposed right here.

[BlackTruth.6813]

I've already said "fake-outs" and fluidity should not be exclusive to discipline. That's one example.

 

With Discipline you can fake out Hammer F1 and Axe F1 more often with the WEAPON SWAP, ALL I am trying to do is make Axe and Hammer and MANY other builds tolerable without having to use discipline. If baseline fast hands happens, then Hammer F1 and Axe F1 can finally have unsuspecting foe and 100% burst trait respectively without having to ALWAYS use discipline. What is so wrong about that?

 

Also more importantly, Hammer and Mace rotations REQUIRE you to swap to a DPS weapon once you land a stun. Without fast hands? It's impossible do this often. THIS IS what fluidity means.

 

Would you RATHER have me ask for an attack speed buff on Mace and Hammer when THAT is potentially a catastrophic suggestion?

 

All I'm trying to do with baseline fast hands as well is so that builds that don't use discipline will be available to the same fake-out potential and fluidity. I don't ALWAYS want to use stow weapon to cancel F1 for example, sometimes the weapon swap can be a better cancel.

 

And I'm suggesting a change that will change Warrior in the least catastrophic way, what more do you want from me? Legit this is why I am asking for what build is going to be OP, what build will prove the "powercreep"

 

So far Odik said STR DEF Spellbreaker AND it holds water. Melandru said STR ARMS Zerker gunflame might become broken and some of what he says is actually not stupid though he picked a very glassy build with many counters. You don't want to follow the example? Then we can't have an honest discussion.

[Odik.4587]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> I've already said "fake-outs" and fluidity should not be exclusive to discipline. That's one example.

Tbh faking out hammer or axe isnt greatest idea against majority if not almost everyone. If you are facing meh skilled players they wont even bother to dodge your bursts or being jebaited into using evades... I tried...they just dont care and most of time you can be like... I should fake ... ? Lets see if he dodge and you actually land your burst xD

I'm still assured FH shouldnt happen until rampage is nerfed . (Holo need lots of nerfs too , I cant be bad vs holo on everything I play ,even rampage doesnt make it too trivial)

I'd rather see bug fixes and berserker revival first.

> So far Odik said STR DEF Spellbreaker AND it holds water. Melandru said STR ARMS Zerker gunflame might become broken and some of what he says is actually not stupid though he picked a very glassy build with many counters. You don't want to follow the example? Then we can't have an honest discussion.

Yes . There was my warning also . If you get it baseline (if that happen) and would be too strong, most likely you going to regret it, anet nerfs are no joke

 

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > I've already said "fake-outs" and fluidity should not be exclusive to discipline. That's one example.

> Tbh faking out hammer or axe isnt greatest idea against majority if not almost everyone. If you are facing meh skilled players they wont even bother to dodge your bursts or being jebaited into using evades... I tried...they just dont care and most of time you can be like... I should fake ... ? Lets see if he dodge and you actually land your burst xD

> I still assured FH shouldnt happen until rampage is nerfed . (Holo need lots of nerfs too , I cant be bad vs holo on everything I play ,even rampage doesnt make it too trivial)

> I'd rather see bug fixes and berserker revival first.

> > So far Odik said STR DEF Spellbreaker AND it holds water. Melandru said STR ARMS Zerker gunflame might become broken and some of what he says is actually not stupid though he picked a very glassy build with many counters. You don't want to follow the example? Then we can't have an honest discussion.

> Yes . There was my warning also . If you get it baseline (if that happen) and would be too strong, most likely you going to regret it, anet nerfs are no joke

>

 

Yeah and I can see why Reckless dodge and Bull's Charge will need a nerf before we get baseline FH as well. I would prefer it that way tbh imo.

 

Although I do miss playing Warrior without having to rely too much on Rampage either (maybe baseline fast hands will make this work), but again like we agreed on... ranger and a lot of classes are stupid too. So the rampage nerf will be delayed maybe.

[Shadowcat.2680]

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > > @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > > > @"Loading.4503" said:

> > > > Please argue to have this reverted then.

> > > >

> > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Illusionary_Persona/history

> > >

> > > Thanks for this, perfect comparison. I didn't know about this change.

> >

> > This mesmer trait was made baseline when Anet completely revamped their build system into the three specialization system it is today.

>

> They should have done the same with fast hands then in my opinion. I bet no one would blink twice if fast hands had just been part of base warrior since that rework.

 

You can't really take Illusionary Persona as precedence though because 1) it was made baseline during a complete overhaul of the build system and 2) it dealt with mesmer's profession mechanic (shatters). Weapon swap is not a profession mechanic, so I don't think Fast Hands will ever be more than a trait. It might get moved someday or made into a major trait since there is precedence for that (mesmer traits got rearranged in such a fashion in the mesmer rework).

[Odik.4587]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > I've already said "fake-outs" and fluidity should not be exclusive to discipline. That's one example.

> > Tbh faking out hammer or axe isnt greatest idea against majority if not almost everyone. If you are facing meh skilled players they wont even bother to dodge your bursts or being jebaited into using evades... I tried...they just dont care and most of time you can be like... I should fake ... ? Lets see if he dodge and you actually land your burst xD

> > I still assured FH shouldnt happen until rampage is nerfed . (Holo need lots of nerfs too , I cant be bad vs holo on everything I play ,even rampage doesnt make it too trivial)

> > I'd rather see bug fixes and berserker revival first.

> > > So far Odik said STR DEF Spellbreaker AND it holds water. Melandru said STR ARMS Zerker gunflame might become broken and some of what he says is actually not stupid though he picked a very glassy build with many counters. You don't want to follow the example? Then we can't have an honest discussion.

> > Yes . There was my warning also . If you get it baseline (if that happen) and would be too strong, most likely you going to regret it, anet nerfs are no joke

> >

>

> Yeah and I can see why Reckless dodge and Bull's Charge will need a nerf before we get baseline FH as well. I would prefer it that way tbh imo.

If that happens I'd not see a reason to not make it baseline (If that somewhat helps with diversity) . Rampage can get smitersbooned for all I care.BC/dodge need some shaves ,not too much to keep it viable but not absurd OP ^^,

Basically for me if this really really helps out with build diversity and dumb OP things would be fixed (lets pray), for me its whatever but thats only my opinion

[Obtena.7952]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> I've already said "fake-outs" and fluidity should not be exclusive to discipline. That's one example.

 

You didn't explain why. It's not a universal truth that 'fake outs' shouldn't be limited to discipline or that builds that don't have discipline aren't fluid either. That's a very subjective assessment. To me the idea that it takes discipline to be fluid and 'fake-out' is thematically correct; To me, it makes sense that those aspects stay in the Discipline line.

 

Even if that what you say is true ... then why is baseline FH THE way to accomplish it? Why should Anet dilute choices players have for builds to deliver 'fake-outs' and increase 'fluidity' by making FH baseline? That's a very BIG barrier to implementing the suggestion because the design itself of how traits work has a strong implication that Anet wants people to make meaningful choices that affect how they play and think about builds. Diluting traits erodes that concept and it's fundamental to the class design.

[Vancho.8750]

Well another compromise is to add similar traits in the niche core traitlines that need rework like Tactics change one of the useless minors for peeling people off the ground to "Gain adrenaline and reduced weapon swap recharge when applying boons to allies. Weapon swap reduction caps at 5 seconds" so it is in line with the support aspect of the line and for Arms change one the traits to "Gain adrenaline when applying conditions and reduced weapon swap every x number of stacks applied. Weapon swap reduction caps at 5 seconds." also Superior Rune of the Warrior counts to the calculation so you never go under 5 seconds, which makes the rune useful for builds like that because they need to apply less boons or conditions to switch.

[melandru.3876]

IF fast hands becomes baseline, which i'm not a fan off

 

then you can be 100% sure that bulls charge, rampage OR both will get the nerfhammer

then the str/disc/spb or core str/disc/def build gets a massive hit.

 

peak performance will be worthless without either rampage (very likely to get a damage nerf/cooldown increase..so everyone back to signet of rage)

or

without bulls charge which is most likely to lose eithers it's evade-frame, it's cc, or it's damage.

 

losing out on a huge multiplier (+10%) and a possible gap closer, unless people will still take it just for the mobility which i seem unlikely

 

i'm not sure if i'm willing to risk any of the above, knowing anets history it won't be OR it will be ALL

makei it useless by nerfing the crap out of it, then never to be looked back at

[Zexanima.7851]

> @"melandru.3876" said:

> IF fast hands becomes baseline, which i'm not a fan off

>

 

I wouldn't worry, despite wanting this change I have no doubt it will never happen.

 

> then you can be 100% sure that bulls charge, rampage OR both will get the nerfhammer

 

Rampage needs a damage nerf, I agree. I don't see what's wrong with bulls charge though. It's highly telegraphed and has a long cast time. The only time I ever get hit by it is if I'm out of CD's and have no dodges left.

 

> then the str/disc/spb or core str/disc/def build gets a massive hit.

 

I don't think nerfing rampage or even bulls charge would affect them that much, that's not where their power is. If you do want to nerf those builds in particular you could scale back adrenal health and passives that provide extra adrenaline. I mean, if you're setting on nerfing warrior take healing signet healing down.

> peak performance will be worthless without either rampage (very likely to get a damage nerf/cooldown increase..so everyone back to signet of rage)

> or

> without bulls charge which is most likely to lose eithers it's evade-frame, it's cc, or it's damage.

>

> losing out on a huge multiplier (+10%) and a possible gap closer, unless people will still take it just for the mobility which i seem unlikely

>

Other skills still exist to proc the multiplier

> i'm not sure if i'm willing to risk any of the above, knowing anets history it won't be OR it will be ALL

> makei it useless by nerfing the kitten out of it, then never to be looked back at

Or just make it baseline and never look back at it.

 

[melandru.3876]

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > @"melandru.3876" said:

> > IF fast hands becomes baseline, which i'm not a fan off

> >

>

> I wouldn't worry, despite wanting this change I have no doubt it will never happen.

>

> > then you can be 100% sure that bulls charge, rampage OR both will get the nerfhammer

>

> Rampage needs a damage nerf, I agree. I don't see what's wrong with bulls charge though. It's highly telegraphed and has a long cast time. The only time I ever get hit by it is if I'm out of CD's and have no dodges left.

>

> > then the str/disc/spb or core str/disc/def build gets a massive hit.

>

> I don't think nerfing rampage or even bulls charge would affect them that much, that's not where their power is. If you do want to nerf those builds in particular you could scale back adrenal health and passives that provide extra adrenaline. I mean, if you're setting on nerfing warrior take healing signet healing down.

> > peak performance will be worthless without either rampage (very likely to get a damage nerf/cooldown increase..so everyone back to signet of rage)

> > or

> > without bulls charge which is most likely to lose eithers it's evade-frame, it's cc, or it's damage.

> >

> > losing out on a huge multiplier (+10%) and a possible gap closer, unless people will still take it just for the mobility which i seem unlikely

> >

> Other skills still exist to proc the multiplier

> > i'm not sure if i'm willing to risk any of the above, knowing anets history it won't be OR it will be ALL

> > makei it useless by nerfing the kitten out of it, then never to be looked back at

> Or just make it baseline and never look back at it.

>

 

other skills exist yes

have you ever seen a warrior using kick, or stomp? i haven't and i played many matches

throw bolas is the only option, but then you are relying on a condition, to land a burst.in a game where conditions are getting cleansed the moment they are applied

warrior alone remove more conditions then you can apply to them 2 times shake it off, signet of stamina, brawlers recovery

bulls charge is just way superior in every aspect

 

str/disc/spb doesn't run defense, so no adrenal health so that's not the issue, nor solution (nerfing adrenal)

nerf healing signet? for the howmany'th time? i can't even count them anymore

 

people fail to understand that healing signet isn't as strong as people make it sound like

 

344 heal per second * 10 seconds = 3440 health per 10 seconds

344 heal per second * 20 second = 6880 health per 20 seconds

 

now compare it with the other heals in game, tell me how "good" healing signet really is

 

troll unguent traited: 20 seconds cooldown = 8496 health per 20 seconds

healing turret: 15 second cooldown (if picked up) 5040 health per 15 seconds = 6720 per 20 + 2 condi cleansed + water field)

false oasis 25 sercond cooldown 8100 health =6480 health per 20 seconds + vigor + mirage mirror

 

think it's starting to look clear allready, healing signet is not the issue it's actual total health/time is balanced with other heals

 

i mean lol https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Signet

 

- -8%

- +5%

- -10%

 

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"melandru.3876" said:

> IF fast hands becomes baseline, which i'm not a fan off

>

> then you can be 100% sure that bulls charge, rampage OR both will get the nerfhammer

> then the str/disc/spb or core str/disc/def build gets a massive hit.

>

> peak performance will be worthless without either rampage (very likely to get a damage nerf/cooldown increase..so everyone back to signet of rage)

> or

> without bulls charge which is most likely to lose eithers it's evade-frame, it's cc, or it's damage.

>

> losing out on a huge multiplier (+10%) and a possible gap closer, unless people will still take it just for the mobility which i seem unlikely

>

> i'm not sure if i'm willing to risk any of the above, knowing anets history it won't be OR it will be ALL

> makei it useless by nerfing the kitten out of it, then never to be looked back at

 

Here is to hoping that when baseline fasthands happen, rampage BC and boring spellbreaker gets nerfed ALONG with soulbeast and etc. Classes like soulbeast is just zzz

 

All the goodies in one patch definitely. Rampage can get nerfed if other cnacers get nerfed and get reworked to balance. I'm assuming the realistic time for baseline fast hands to happen.. is in a big balance patch.

 

Sounds like a plan tbh.