Holistic balance [Suggested Patch Notes]

[saerni.2584]

I'm going to suggest a few holistic balance changes. Let me know if you think I missed a skill you think should be buffed/nerfed or if you think my suggestions wouldn't work for some reason. I was inspired a bit by @"bluri.2653" 's recent video discussing the need to boost under representing skills/builds and also frustrations with the Swipe/Steal change without other changes to address sustain issues in 1v1. I've also been inspired by @"babazhook.6805" 's excellent feedback in other threads regarding where he sees legitimate (i.e. not overpowered) opportunities to improve certain weapons or traits.

 

Here are my suggested patch notes:

[CUT]

 

EDIT: CONSOLIDATED CHANGES UPDATED 6/21/2019

* Swipe: now has reduced recharge if used within 360 distance units. (-33%)

* Repeater: now deals additional damage to crippled targets (+15%)

* Sneak Attack: increased the per shot damage of this skill (+20%)

* Shadowstrike: this skill is now unblockable.

* Body Shot: Projectile speed has been increased by 20%. Body Shot now applies additional vulnerability to disabled foes (5 stacks, 10 second duration).

* Backstab: Vulnerability is now twice as effective for this skill. (2% bonus damage per stack)

* Malicious Backstab: bonus damage has been reduced per malice stack. (+5%) (This skill inherits the new vulnerability bonus from Backstab)

* Dancing Dagger: this skill now tracks the target and deals bonus damage per bounce (+5%)

* Cloak and Dagger: this skill now changes to "Shadow's Urgency" on successful strike (one use).

* Shadow's Urgency: this skill grants super speed (1.5 seconds, 3 initiative).

* Smoke Screen: this skill now creates a ring of smoke around the thief. [*implemented*]

* Tripwire: this skill now applies vulnerability in addition to its other effects. (10 stacks, 10 seconds).

* Ambush: this skill now calls in a stealthed thief NPC which either uses Unload or Backstab and then despawns.

* Shadow Trap: this skill now has reduced range and will now teleport rather than Shadowstep to the target.

* Caltrops: this skill now has a 300 radius and applies Slow (1 second per pulse).

* Daggerstorm: this skill's duration, cooldown and range has been reduced (3 seconds, 3.25 second evade, 60 second recharge, 600 range)

* Improvisation: This skill now allows two stolen skill uses and reduces the recharge of one random equipped utility (heal, utility or elite) by 50%. [*partially implemented October 1, 2019*]

* Last Refuge: This trait now removes reveal before using Lesser Blinding Powder.

* Concealed Defeat: This trait now uses the updated version of Smoke Screen.

* Lesser Smoke Screen: This trait now creates the same ring as Smoke Screen. Deception skills have 20% reduced recharge (same effect)

* Shadow Protector: This trait now applies Aegis in addition to its original effects.

* Rending Shade: This trait no longer reduces damage taken from targets without boons. Rending Shade now applies weakness for 5 seconds in addition to stealing boons. [*not implemented but changed*]

* Thrill of the Crime: This trait now applies a total of 5 stacks of might for 10 seconds in addition to Fury and Swiftness.

* Quick Pockets: This trait now restores 6 initiative on weapon swap in combat.

* Preparedness: This trait now increases maximum initiative by 2. Base initiative pool has been increased by 1.

* Sundering Shade: This trait no longer applies Fury. This trait now applies 10 stacks of vulnerability after a stealth attack hits with a 6 second duration.

* Venoms: all venoms now apply a variable duration boon, during which attacks will apply condition effects in addition to normal effects.

* Spider Venom: 12 second duration, applies 1 stack of poison per strike with a base 6 second duration.

* Scale Venom: 6 second duration, applies 1 stack of torment and 1 stack of vulnerability per strike, torment 5 second duration, vulnerability 10 second duration.

* Devourer Venom: 3 second duration, applies 1 stack of Immobilize per strike with a one second duration. Cannot be applied more than once per second per target.

* Ice Drake Venom: 3 second duration, applies 1 stack of Chill per strike with a one second duration. Striking a chilled target while the Venom is active applies an additional 1 second of Chill. The second effect cannot be applied more than once per second per target.

* Infiltrator’s Signet: Increased initiative regen to 2 every 10 seconds. Reduced recharge to 20 seconds.

* Signets of Power: The additional signet passive bonus is adjusted for the following:

1. Signet of Malice: This bonus passive no longer heals on kill. Healing per strike is now improved by 30%

2. Signet of Shadows: This bonus passive now removes reveal and applies regeneration for 4 seconds on kill on a 4 second cooldown.

3. Assassin’s Signet: This bonus passive now applies 5 stacks of might for 5 seconds on kill, on a 1 second cooldown.

[omgdracula.6345]

I personally wouldn't see any of these changes increasing build diversity tbh. Not that they aren't good suggestions. I personally think that thief utility skills need a complete overhaul as many seem useless. Venoms are pretty bad in PvP along with traps being busted.

Dagger/Dagger also needs a rework as a weapon set. I would like to see death blossom turned into a chain attack that has different effects if it hits 2 or more targets. Actually work venoms into it.

 

First Strike - Spider Venom and Bleed Stacks

Second Strike - Drake and Bleed Stacks

Third - Devour Venom and Bleed Stacks

 

Reduce the bleeds to 2 per strike but chain ends if you fail to hit 2 or more targets.

[Jack Redline.5379]

Hmm. Interesting.

I usually don't like bluri or you just for the fact ppl praise you to the very heaven for being Thief gods but these are actually well thought through changes. Maybe i was rly wrong and you are that good.

BUT

I also have something to say to that

 

These changes are good but would require a lot of work which is something you cant except from Anet like Body shot applying knockback if a traget is imobilized

that is a lot of if coding and when Anet If codes we gonna get so many bugs that it is gonna end up like when they made DE Shadow Flare and you could finish off 4m life bot in training room in 4 seconds xD

Instead i would go for combo effects. You see we have tons of fields in our hands and we dont rly use them so I would give aditional changes to our Combo finishers.

It might seem weird but hear me out

 

We have access to These fields

Dark

Poison

Smoke

Ethernal

Water

(Pain - I will get to this in a second)

 

And we have these finishers

 

Blast = Cluster bomb, Blinding powder, Trait - Last refuge ==> I would suggest that a Thief's blast finishers would apply knockback inside of a Dark or Smoke field. Imagine it like enemy is inside of a smoke and suddenly something blasts around him ofc it throws him on the floor. Very good for Ambushing imo.

 

Leap = Heartseeker, Vault, Death's retreat, Bound Dodge, ==> I say lets give a Leap abbility to grant vulnerability if it is done on Pain field = And here i get to it. We have Caltrops and Traitable Lesser Caltrops, They cause bleeding, but arent really a field even tho they srsly are a field. Lets make Caltrops a Pain field and if you Leap over Clatrops you cause Vulnerability Lets be generous and go with 2 Stacks each 1 sec.

 

Projectile = Black Powder, Body Shot, Unload, Reaper, AA on sb, AA on pistol, Disabling shot, Shadow shot, Shadow strike, Sneak Attack, Vital Shot, Dancing dagger, Trick Shot, Headshot, Scorpion Wire, And all Rifle Attacks except for Deaths Retreat and Kneel (all stolen skills from Pets) ==> As you may see there is tons of those so I would definitelly give Projectile finisher an ability to heal you for 100 life and grant regeneration and vigor to you for 3 seconds if you shoot it in a water field. (I couldnt rly give it a damaging effect since there is so many of them it would be OP within 0,5 second)

 

Whirl = Death's Blossom, Punishing Strikes, Weakening Charge, Whirling Axe, Trait Lotus Training ,and cursed Dagger storm :D ==> If this would be cast in Poison Field it would apply Tornment and Bleed stack per each hit as well as it does apply 1 stack of poison rn

 

I agree with what you are saying mate but those are rly complicated changes in terms of what we can expect from Anet. If you dont agree with me on this it is okay. I would rly like your idea but we cant rly hope for that. This on the other hand could 1st be done since those are small changes Anet could afford to do 2nd Gamestyle would be more fun since you would use Field + finisher effects that have been forgotten for so long AND it wouldn't make thief too OP. We dont need to change Swipe if we get this. Since we will want them to be up close to us. Swipe will be just an interrupt skill so they dont run away from the Fields. We will be brawlers as they wished us to be but in a different way.

Thx if you got all the way down here. GL

[babazhook.6805]

Personally I agree with the thrust of the changes suggested. I see at as increasing build diversity but more importantly increasing the usage of a given skill withing a set. As example the Repeater adding extra raw damage to a crippled foe forces a person to get crippled on prior to garnering the benefit. Crippled comes from dancing dagger.

 

I actually also like the "Cascade" type skills such as what they did to shadowstrike and as is being propsed for shadows urgency with cloak and dagger.

 

Notwithstanding all of the complaints about thief being nerfed to uselessness , the class is still the most "fun to play" from my perspective. This not because it easier or harder or because it wins most fights or loses most fights. It is because of the INI system which gives more choices as to what to do next at a given time. Where this suffers is when the what to do next is always the same skill as the best choice. The suggestions IMO give more reasons to use a given skill within the same weapon set. Opening up the utilities that are unused because there always something bettet to take will also help here.

[saerni.2584]

I do want to suggest Venoms changes but I’m unsure what exactly should be done to improve them in a way that makes sense for thief as a whole.

 

The number of charges seems small given the use of charges on misses etc. That said, too many charges quickly becomes a balancing issue.

[omgdracula.6345]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> I do want to suggest Venoms changes but I’m unsure what exactly should be done to improve them in a way that makes sense for thief as a whole.

>

> The number of charges seems small given the use of charges on misses etc. That said, too many charges quickly becomes a balancing issue.

 

Just bake venoms into weapon skills. I hate to use WoW as an example, but they are probably the only MMO to do poisons well. Each weapon set comes with its own venom and it is used as an f skill for thief.

[saerni.2584]

Also @"Jack Redline.5379" I don’t think anyone has praised me lol. I just play a weird weapon set so I get more visibility as its most vocal advocate.

 

I think fields would have to be universal to the game. I think that your proposal would be harder to code than conditional effects (if X, then Y).

[saerni.2584]

> @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > I do want to suggest Venoms changes but I’m unsure what exactly should be done to improve them in a way that makes sense for thief as a whole.

> >

> > The number of charges seems small given the use of charges on misses etc. That said, too many charges quickly becomes a balancing issue.

>

> Just bake venoms into weapon skills. I hate to use WoW as an example, but they are probably the only MMO to do poisons well. Each weapon set comes with its own venom and it is used as an f skill for thief.

 

One possibility is to make venoms last for a set period (adding condi on each strike). This could be balanced by only applying to attacks that use initiative (similar code to malice generation).

 

There might have to be restrictions or reworks to certain venoms though. Chaining Basi Venom would be very OP in current form.

[Ensign.2189]

Some food for thought:

 

> * Swipe: now has reduced recharge if used within 300 distance. (-33%)

 

The main issue with this is the messaging - there isn't a tell whether you are in reduced cooldown range or not, and the payoff in this case is large.

 

Do you think Swipe can support a reduced cooldown in general? The reduced range is a pretty substantial reduction in utility so this might be ok despite the bigger payload.

 

> * Repeater: now deals additional damage to crippled targets (+15%)

> * Sneak Attack: increased the per shot damage of this skill (+20%)

 

The power coefficients on these are already pretty good. Repeater really isn't that far behind Unload in terms of raw coefficient per second, and that had to be nuked in sPvP from how toxic it was in some matchups. The power coefficient on Sneak Attack is already substantial and another 20% would push it into Backstab territory. I don't think we want to tempt Marauder P/D with big ranged power burst.

 

I think that this is on the right track though, in that P/D has a lot of trouble killing despite pretty good pressure, as it lacks a strong finishing burst. It's kind of an issue with the class design as you really need burns or confusion to chunk people with conditions; P/D can only really watch people bleed out once they are totally out of tools.

 

> * Shadowstrike: this skill is now unblockable.

 

Would strongly oppose this. Shadowstrike already has very little counterplay, as its lightning fast swing is barely telegraphed and you're basically playing a game of having to anticipate it to avoid it (and then they just swing again anyway). P/D needs more tools to outplay an opponent, not fewer ways for opponents to outplay them.

 

> * Body Shot: this skill now applies knockback if the target is already immobilized.

 

Yeah a spamable hard CC on an immobilized target that continues to pile on the poison and vulnerability. There are very few skills that break both immobilize and a hard cc simultaneously. There is no way this is healthy.

 

> * Backstab: Vulnerability is now twice as effective for this skill. (2% bonus damage per stack)

 

This is really smart. Backstab has fallen behind in the meta utility builds but dedicated builds can still one shot people. This helps the former without blowing out the latter. Great suggestion.

 

> * Malicious Backstab: bonus damage has been reduced per malice stack. (+5%)

 

I presume Malicious Backstab inherits the bonus above?

 

> * Dancing Dagger: this skill now tracks the target and deals bonus damage per bounce (+5%)

 

Better tracking would be nice, but the other bonus goes in the wrong direction. The main issue with the skill is that it is very low value against single targets but is nasty if you can bounce it between two people. If anything you would want to flatter that, so it isn't such a niche skill for chunking duos.

 

> * Cloak and Dagger: this skill now changes to "Shadow's Urgency" on successful strike (one use).

> * Shadow's Urgency: this skill grants super speed (1 second, 3 initiative).

 

Looking for a Backstab assist? Seems like this steps on move speed from Shadow Arts and is a really expensive way of buy another 100u of distance. I would honestly prefer just giving C&D a second of superspeed to this. Still a real pain point though, worth iterating on ideas here.

 

> * Smoke Screen: this skill now creates a ring of smoke around the thief.

 

Yep, no brainer. Great change.

 

> * Tripwire: this skill now applies vulnerability in addition to its other effects. (10 stacks, 10 seconds)

 

Whatever. Is a lack of vulnerability stacks really the reason you aren't using it?

 

> * Ambush: this skill now calls in additional allies depending on the number of nearby enemies.

 

Yes, what sPvP needs is more AI summons on the field of battle.

 

> * Shadow Trap: this skill now has reduced range and will now teleport rather than Shadowstep to the target.

 

100%

 

> * Caltrops: this skill now has a 300 radius.

 

I could be convinced but my gut reaction is that this doesn't need to be bigger than a Well. These big static AoEs are pretty strong on a lot of side nodes already.

 

> * Daggerstorm: this skill's duration, cooldown and range has been reduced (3 seconds, 3.25 second evade, 60 second recharge, 600 range)

 

The range doesn't seem worth the effort as it barely hits anything that far away anyway, but 100% to the duration. I wouldn't reduce the cooldown either - the comp is Renewed Focus.

 

The bigger issue is Improvisation procs here. If you can do something about that there's be less need to dial it back.

[MUDse.7623]

i have a question about following:

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> * Backstab: Vulnerability is now twice as effective for this skill. (2% bonus damage per stack)

> * Malicious Backstab: bonus damage has been reduced per malice stack. (+5%)

 

do you want the bonus per vuln damage to work only on core/DD or also in malicious backstab. i am asking mainly because in the past several times it was requested to buff base backstab without affecting malicious one.

if the change excludes DEs backstab, then DD will hit harder with the backstab, just like it can stealth better than the profession designed around stealth attacks. as rifle is very situational, it will basically mean you got to play DD in pve. deadeye would need then 5 stacks malice for the skill to have the same dmg values vs a target with vuln. i am all for tradeoffs, but the spec shouldnt have a negative tradeoff in what it specializes in.

 

 

[saerni.2584]

I’ll respond to the other feedback in a bit but @"MUDse.7623" and @"Ensign.2189" the Malicious Backstab would inherit the base skill.

 

I wanted to buff Backstab while not making MBS into something insane.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> I’ll respond to the other feedback in a bit but @"MUDse.7623" and @"Ensign.2189" the Malicious Backstab would inherit the base skill.

>

> I wanted to buff Backstab while not making MBS into something insane.

 

ty for the quick answer.

 

[omgdracula.6345]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > I do want to suggest Venoms changes but I’m unsure what exactly should be done to improve them in a way that makes sense for thief as a whole.

> > >

> > > The number of charges seems small given the use of charges on misses etc. That said, too many charges quickly becomes a balancing issue.

> >

> > Just bake venoms into weapon skills. I hate to use WoW as an example, but they are probably the only MMO to do poisons well. Each weapon set comes with its own venom and it is used as an f skill for thief.

>

> One possibility is to make venoms last for a set period (adding condi on each strike). This could be balanced by only applying to attacks that use initiative (similar code to malice generation).

>

> There might have to be restrictions or reworks to certain venoms though. Chaining Basi Venom would be very OP in current form.

 

I could see this working. I would rather they somehow work them into sets on skills to free up those utility skill slots for more duelist oriented skills that increase our survivability that outside of dodging doesn't exist at all.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

I understand why a low sustain class has its duel pistol burst lowered in pvp because its promotes unhealthy play but why do rapid fire soulbeast shots exist from a spec that has what it has?lol I donno everything I this game seems off but great suggestions seems very thought out hopefully arenanet checks these out though I doubt it.

[saerni.2584]

> @"Ensign.2189" said:

> Some food for thought:

>

> > * Swipe: now has reduced recharge if used within 300 distance. (-33%)

>

> The main issue with this is the messaging - there isn't a tell whether you are in reduced cooldown range or not, and the payoff in this case is large.

>

> Do you think Swipe can support a reduced cooldown in general? The reduced range is a pretty substantial reduction in utility so this might be ok despite the bigger payload.

 

Yeah, Swipe is one of the areas I’m least comfortable making suggestions but I felt any patch suggestions had to include it in some way.

 

I really wanted to find a middle ground between the range Anet forced on the skill and the usability of it in combat. If I’m using steal for Bountiful Theft, Vigor, condi etc. I need to use it more often in melee range to stay in melee range with all my other skills. Ideally, I’d use it twice as often to make up for the range reduction of 50%. 33% is my attempt to not make the distance equivalent (going away from the tradeoff concept) but to reward staying in range. Maybe the range could be 360 to help people get used to the bonus. Obviously, a tell would be nice but I’m not sure how to pull that off and still retain the cooldown bonus.

 

>

> > * Repeater: now deals additional damage to crippled targets (+15%)

> > * Sneak Attack: increased the per shot damage of this skill (+20%)

>

> The power coefficients on these are already pretty good. Repeater really isn't that far behind Unload in terms of raw coefficient per second, and that had to be nuked in sPvP from how toxic it was in some matchups. The power coefficient on Sneak Attack is already substantial and another 20% would push it into Backstab territory. I don't think we want to tempt Marauder P/D with big ranged power burst.

>

> I think that this is on the right track though, in that P/D has a lot of trouble killing despite pretty good pressure, as it lacks a strong finishing burst. It's kind of an issue with the class design as you really need burns or confusion to chunk people with conditions; P/D can only really watch people bleed out once they are totally out of tools.

 

If you have suggestions for percentages I’m certainly open. My thought was that both skills have multiple bullets and are supposed to burst somewhat. I build for damage but I don’t see that reflected in practice.

>

> > * Shadowstrike: this skill is now unblockable.

>

> Would strongly oppose this. Shadowstrike already has very little counterplay, as its lightning fast swing is barely telegraphed and you're basically playing a game of having to anticipate it to avoid it (and then they just swing again anyway). P/D needs more tools to outplay an opponent, not fewer ways for opponents to outplay them.

 

I went back and forth on what skill could be unblockable. The thought was initially to make Repeater into unblockable to support its damage capacity. However, because a Shadowstrike always locks itself out it now presents a very different defensive profile from before. There is clear counter play in using ranged damage or counter pressuring during the 4 second window after a Shadowstrike. You can also use blinds or evade or a stun to lockdown the opponent before they can escape.

 

>

> > * Body Shot: this skill now applies knockback if the target is already immobilized.

>

> Yeah a spamable hard CC on an immobilized target that continues to pile on the poison and vulnerability. There are very few skills that break both immobilize and a hard cc simultaneously. There is no way this is healthy.

 

Body Shot is slow and extremely expensive. Any cleanse would shut down the knockback (which I should clarify I want to only be 100 units and not 450 like Shadow Gust.

 

>

> > * Backstab: Vulnerability is now twice as effective for this skill. (2% bonus damage per stack)

>

> This is really smart. Backstab has fallen behind in the meta utility builds but dedicated builds can still one shot people. This helps the former without blowing out the latter. Great suggestion.

>

> > * Malicious Backstab: bonus damage has been reduced per malice stack. (+5%)

>

> I presume Malicious Backstab inherits the bonus above?

 

Yes, as I mentioned in my last reply.

 

>

> > * Dancing Dagger: this skill now tracks the target and deals bonus damage per bounce (+5%)

>

> Better tracking would be nice, but the other bonus goes in the wrong direction. The main issue with the skill is that it is very low value against single targets but is nasty if you can bounce it between two people. If anything you would want to flatter that, so it isn't such a niche skill for chunking duos.

 

I actually like using it to chunk a downed with an ally or pet nearby. It gives it a different flavor in my opinion from other skills. I do agree the damage is low on single targets (which is why I want to add bonus damage to crippled targets on Repeater).

 

 

>

> > * Cloak and Dagger: this skill now changes to "Shadow's Urgency" on successful strike (one use).

> > * Shadow's Urgency: this skill grants super speed (1 second, 3 initiative).

>

> Looking for a Backstab assist? Seems like this steps on move speed from Shadow Arts and is a really expensive way of buy another 100u of distance. I would honestly prefer just giving C&D a second of superspeed to this. Still a real pain point though, worth iterating on ideas here.

 

It is a bit redundant but my thought was to give just a general edge to CnD backstab builds regardless if they use Shadow Arts. CnD also isn’t/shouldn’t be spammed so this way you can choose to move faster to either avoid an incoming hit (after you risked being in melee range) or get into position for a strike.

 

This could also be an optional “teleport behind the target” but that requires much less personal skill and can’t be used defensively like the superspeed.

 

>

> > * Smoke Screen: this skill now creates a ring of smoke around the thief.

>

> Yep, no brainer. Great change.

>

> > * Tripwire: this skill now applies vulnerability in addition to its other effects. (10 stacks, 10 seconds)

>

> Whatever. Is a lack of vulnerability stacks really the reason you aren't using it?

 

This was thematic. I asked, “what does a trip wire do?” The answer was “set someone up to get hurt.” I thought adding vulnerability here would facilitate it performing a combat function that can’t be defeated just by stability.

 

>

> > * Ambush: this skill now calls in additional allies depending on the number of nearby enemies.

>

> Yes, what sPvP needs is more AI summons on the field of battle.

 

I did this just because the skill exists. To be honest I’m not a fan of it but wasn’t sure what to replace the skill with and just wanted to buff it to be useful.

 

I didn’t touch thieves guild yet, but I wanted to make it better or different entirely from Ambush.

 

 

>

> > * Shadow Trap: this skill now has reduced range and will now teleport rather than Shadowstep to the target.

>

> 100%

>

> > * Caltrops: this skill now has a 300 radius.

>

> I could be convinced but my gut reaction is that this doesn't need to be bigger than a Well. These big static AoEs are pretty strong on a lot of side nodes already.

 

I think Caltrops is in an ok place. That’s why adding a little extra radius to me seemed a good way to see if more people will use it, without potentially giving the skill a massive buff. Thief has so few AoE circles (Shadow Flare for example), I think we deserve a little AoE pressure love.

>

> > * Daggerstorm: this skill's duration, cooldown and range has been reduced (3 seconds, 3.25 second evade, 60 second recharge, 600 range)

>

> The range doesn't seem worth the effort as it barely hits anything that far away anyway, but 100% to the duration. I wouldn't reduce the cooldown either - the comp is Renewed Focus.

>

> The bigger issue is Improvisation procs here. If you can do something about that there's be less need to dial it back.

 

Yeah, I haven’t jumped into the traits yet. Improv is too random and a full reset is very strong with an elite skill like DS. The cooldown makes DS more usable without improv and would help justify changes to that trait.

[SehferViega.8725]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> I'm going to suggest a few holistic balance changes. Let me know if you think I missed a skill you think should be buffed/nerfed or if you think my suggestions wouldn't work for some reason. I was inspired a bit by @"bluri.2653" 's recent video discussing the need to boost under representing skills/builds and also frustrations with the Swipe/Steal change without other changes to address sustain issues in 1v1. I've also been inspired by @"babazhook.6805" 's excellent feedback in other threads regarding where he sees legitimate (i.e. not overpowered) opportunities to improve certain weapons or traits.

>

> Here are my suggested patch notes:

> * Swipe: now has reduced recharge if used within 300 distance. (-33%)

 

Commute a teleport skill into a melee skill have no sense to me.

**Swipe: 25 seconds of recharge time like Deadeye's mark, this would be better (and fair).**

 

> * Repeater: now deals additional damage to crippled targets (+15%)

 

We just have Ankle Shots that "Critical hits with pistols and harpoon guns cripple foes. Deal bonus damage to crippled foes; damage is increased when wielding a pistol or harpoon gun."

 

> * Sneak Attack: increased the per shot damage of this skill (+20%)

> * Shadowstrike: this skill is now unblockable.

> * Body Shot: this skill now applies knockback if the target is already immobilized.

 

**Body Shot: this skill is fine, I don't understand why to change it.**

 

> * Backstab: Vulnerability is now twice as effective for this skill. (2% bonus damage per stack)

> * Malicious Backstab: bonus damage has been reduced per malice stack. (+5%)

 

Backstab: this skill deal increased damage to vulnerable foes (+5%). You could also chose a different bonus damage..

 

> * Dancing Dagger: this skill now tracks the target and deals bonus damage per bounce (+5%)

 

Track? Do you mean something like a mark that reveal and block stealth? (Damage is fine for me).

 

> * Cloak and Dagger: this skill now changes to "Shadow's Urgency" on successful strike (one use).

> * Shadow's Urgency: this skill grants super speed (1 second, 3 initiative).

 

Shadow's Urgency: this skill only grants 1 sec of superspeed? No damage? no Stealh? At the cost of 3 initiative?

 

> * Smoke Screen: this skill now creates a ring of smoke around the thief.

 

This would be perfect.

 

> * Tripwire: this skill now applies vulnerability in addition to its other effects. (10 stacks, 10 seconds).

 

This change could really "revitalize" this useless skill.

 

> * Ambush: this skill now calls in additional allies depending on the number of nearby enemies.

 

This skill is useless for me: a bad copy of Thieves Guild.. It needs a completely rework. New skill, new mechanic.

 

> * Shadow Trap: this skill now has reduced range and will now teleport rather than Shadowstep to the target.

> * Caltrops: this skill now has a 300 radius.

 

Caltrops needs to reverse this change: Bleeding has been adjusted from 2 stacks for 5 seconds to 1 stack for 10 seconds.

 

> * Daggerstorm: this skill's duration, cooldown and range has been reduced (3 seconds, 3.25 second evade, 60 second recharge, 600 range)

 

Dagger Storm is fine till they'll buff basilisk venom and Swipe range.

[Ensign.2189]

> I really wanted to find a middle ground between the range Anet forced on the skill and the usability of it in combat. If I’m using steal for Bountiful Theft, Vigor, condi etc. I need to use it more often in melee range to stay in melee range with all my other skills. Ideally, I’d use it twice as often to make up for the range reduction of 50%

 

Oh come on. I know there is a lot of salt about Swipe range but the idea that half the range counterbalances half the cooldown is just absurd. Yes, the shorter range costs you several wall jumps and slows down rotations, but a shorter cooldown is more interrupts, more boon strips and boon uptime and recharges with Improv.

 

If given the choice between a 1200 range trait and a 20% recharge trait I suspect most pvp thief builds would take the recharge. Much more than that and it becomes a no brainer to just take Infiltrator's Signet for the rotations and smash people with more steals.

 

> If you have suggestions for percentages I’m certainly open. My thought was that both skills have multiple bullets and are supposed to burst somewhat. I build for damage but I don’t see that reflected in practice.

 

You're probably built for conditions, as that makes the most sense for the skill layout. Still, slap on a Marauder amulet with Scholar runes and standard DA / TR traits and you'll chunk people - I am getting 7.5k Sneak Attacks and 6k Repeaters in direct damage alone. These abilities do not need to hit like trucks.

 

> I went back and forth on what skill could be unblockable.

 

Why does P/D need unblockable abilities? Unblockable is most valuable for burst damage dealers that can use it to make a bigger window to burst a target. You want it timed to work with high damage abilities to take advantage of an opening.

 

P/D is not a burst damage weapon; it is a kite and poke weapon. It really doesn't care too much about targets blocking as it just keeps chipping away whenever they drop. It's real problems are how it lacks high intensity burst to finish off targets, leaving it unable to realistically threaten a post-HoT healing support or tank, and weak chasing potential - if someone doesn't want to chase you and play your game you can't really force the issue. Unblockable doesn't really help with either of these, so it'd just be power creep for the sake of power creep. Not good.

[saerni.2584]

> @"Ensign.2189" said:

> > I really wanted to find a middle ground between the range Anet forced on the skill and the usability of it in combat. If I’m using steal for Bountiful Theft, Vigor, condi etc. I need to use it more often in melee range to stay in melee range with all my other skills. Ideally, I’d use it twice as often to make up for the range reduction of 50%

>

> Oh come on. I know there is a lot of salt about Swipe range but the idea that half the range counterbalances half the cooldown is just absurd. Yes, the shorter range costs you several wall jumps and slows down rotations, but a shorter cooldown is more interrupts, more boon strips and boon uptime and recharges with Improv.

>

> If given the choice between a 1200 range trait and a 20% recharge trait I suspect most pvp thief builds would take the recharge. Much more than that and it becomes a no brainer to just take Infiltrator's Signet for the rotations and smash people with more steals.

>

 

I’m not sure if you are disagreeing with the proposal or what exactly your alternative is. Yes, a cooldown reduction could be stronger than the range. But it is different and tries to differentiate Steal vs Swipe in a way that still fits with melee brawler gameplay (which is something Anet is promoting regardless of what we think about that choice).

 

> > If you have suggestions for percentages I’m certainly open. My thought was that both skills have multiple bullets and are supposed to burst somewhat. I build for damage but I don’t see that reflected in practice.

>

> You're probably built for conditions, as that makes the most sense for the skill layout. Still, slap on a Marauder amulet with Scholar runes and standard DA / TR traits and you'll chunk people - I am getting 7.5k Sneak Attacks and 6k Repeaters in direct damage alone. These abilities do not need to hit like trucks.

>

 

I’m built hybrid. I have condi, but also a fair bit of precision and power. The mix gives me the ability to take advantage of the condi for increased damage over time. You are right I could hit harder power numbers on a different amulet but not enough to make up for the torment and bleeds off Mal Sneak Attack, Shadowstrike, Repeater, Dancing Dagger.

 

> > I went back and forth on what skill could be unblockable.

>

> Why does P/D need unblockable abilities? Unblockable is most valuable for burst damage dealers that can use it to make a bigger window to burst a target. You want it timed to work with high damage abilities to take advantage of an opening.

>

 

Shadowstrike’s ranged component does a lot of damage.

 

> P/D is not a burst damage weapon; it is a kite and poke weapon. It really doesn't care too much about targets blocking as it just keeps chipping away whenever they drop. It's real problems are how it lacks high intensity burst to finish off targets, leaving it unable to realistically threaten a post-HoT healing support or tank, and weak chasing potential - if someone doesn't want to chase you and play your game you can't really force the issue. Unblockable doesn't really help with either of these, so it'd just be power creep for the sake of power creep. Not good.

 

It isn’t as good at kiting now that Repeater locks it out for 4 seconds. That was my entire point. If I lose the ability to kite then I need stronger damage. Unblockable helps Shadowstrike do damage (can still be evaded, blinded, etc) and also means the kiting aspect is more consistent and reliable to use (but still vulnerable to counterplay of other kinds).

[saerni.2584]

@"Ensign.2189"

 

Also I just swapped to what you suggested with Deadeye and on the Indestructible Golem:

 

Sneak Attack hit for 4.3-5.8k in Mauraders as described.

 

Repeater hit for 2.5-3k in Maurader’s as described.

 

Shadowstrike hit for 3-4k in Maurader’s as described.

[SehferViega.8725]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> * Ambush: this skill now calls in additional allies depending on the number of nearby enemies.

 

What if we would transform Ambush trap's summoned thief in something similar as Phantasmal Rogue from Mesmer downed skills?

 

I mean a trap that, when triggered, calls in a thief that that delivers a

1. - single hit

2. - unblockable

3. - medium-high damage (4-5k).

After hitting summoned thief disappears.

[saerni.2584]

> @"SehferViega.8725" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > * Ambush: this skill now calls in additional allies depending on the number of nearby enemies.

>

> What if we would transform Ambush trap's summoned thief in something similar as Phantasmal Rogue from Mesmer downed skills?

>

> I mean a trap that, when triggered, calls in a thief that that delivers a

> 1. - single hit

> 2. - unblockable

> 3. - medium-high damage (4-5k).

> After hitting summoned thief disappears.

 

That could work. Anyone else have thoughts on this skill? Also, any thoughts on making Thieves guild better?

[Straegen.2938]

Rollback the last couple years of nerfs to core and Dare Devil thief skills/traits and reinstate Ricochet. That pretty much fixes most of it. Malicious Backstab would need a pretty hard nerf if they did that though.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Unfortunately I dont realistically think thief will see any changes that would require any significant amount of work and focus from the dev's and certainly not in the form of meaningful buffs. As much as that sucks. They have probably already shifted thier focus on other classes regarding there trade off initiative their running right now.

[SehferViega.8725]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

 

> any thoughts on making Thieves guild better?

 

Thives Guild is fine.. If you use it with Spider Venom you can achiev a really good damage with Condi/Hybrid builds (24 poison stacks if all attacks land).

You can also take advantage from the Black Powder casted by the P/P summoned thief if you are a Dagger/Dagger Hybrid Thief to gain stealth or to blind (with Dancing Dagger).

 

It only requires a little imagination..

[JonnyForgotten.4276]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> I'm going to suggest a few holistic balance changes. Let me know if you think I missed a skill you think should be buffed/nerfed or if you think my suggestions wouldn't work for some reason. I was inspired a bit by @"bluri.2653" 's recent video discussing the need to boost under representing skills/builds and also frustrations with the Swipe/Steal change without other changes to address sustain issues in 1v1. I've also been inspired by @"babazhook.6805" 's excellent feedback in other threads regarding where he sees legitimate (i.e. not overpowered) opportunities to improve certain weapons or traits.

>

> Here are my suggested patch notes:

> * Swipe: now has reduced recharge if used within 300 distance. (-33%)

> * Repeater: now deals additional damage to crippled targets (+15%)

> * Sneak Attack: increased the per shot damage of this skill (+20%)

> * Shadowstrike: this skill is now unblockable.

> * Body Shot: this skill now applies knockback if the target is already immobilized.

> * Backstab: Vulnerability is now twice as effective for this skill. (2% bonus damage per stack)

> * Malicious Backstab: bonus damage has been reduced per malice stack. (+5%)

> * Dancing Dagger: this skill now tracks the target and deals bonus damage per bounce (+5%)

> * Cloak and Dagger: this skill now changes to "Shadow's Urgency" on successful strike (one use).

> * Shadow's Urgency: this skill grants super speed (1 second, 3 initiative).

> * Smoke Screen: this skill now creates a ring of smoke around the thief.

> * Tripwire: this skill now applies vulnerability in addition to its other effects. (10 stacks, 10 seconds)

> * Ambush: this skill now calls in additional allies depending on the number of nearby enemies.

> * Shadow Trap: this skill now has reduced range and will now teleport rather than Shadowstep to the target.

> * Caltrops: this skill now has a 300 radius.

> * Daggerstorm: this skill's duration, cooldown and range has been reduced (3 seconds, 3.25 second evade, 60 second recharge, 600 range)

>

> More to come, this is just where I ended up after a bit of brainstorming.

>

> Edit for clarity: “track” means the projectile homes in on the target and can’t be sidestepped. This makes the skill more consistent at medium to long range.

 

Yup yup yup. Lot of focus on your p/d build (:P), but I think these are all pretty good ideas.