The gods and gender imbalance (spoilers)

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

> @castlemanic.3198 said:

> As Konig said in another thread, it was hinted that Balthazar was a craftsman god (specifically to do with armour and weaponry),

Balthazar was supposedly the one who made Abbadon's chains. And in PoF he uses magic chains to bound Palawa Joko, Vlast, and Aurene.

[castlemanic.3198]

> @Zenith.7301 said:

> And yet their reasoning for putting Kalla in this expansion that had nothing to do with Charr was to balance it from a racial/gender perspective....

 

Lorewise, a charr was their only option. I've discussed this on the reddit and this subforum so I won't go into details, but with Rytlock, a charr, teaching other charr revenant magic, at the command of the top brass, also charr, why would he choose any being associated with elona and the crystal desert when he could go for one of his own as a more reliable and trustworthy starting point? We are in the lore forums so this is especially important to think of instead of tying a legend thematically to elona and forgetting about the lore.

 

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> Balthazar was supposedly the one who made Abbadon's chains. And in PoF he uses magic chains to bound Palawa Joko, Vlast, and Aurene.

 

I totally forgot about the Abbadon chains thing! Good catch on all that!

[Westenev.5289]

> @castlemanic.3198 said:

> It was a vizier who sunk orr, not the king. Just a slight correction.

>

> You'll also note that a male human now leads the pact, a sylvari male previously led the pact and sacrificed himself to destroy an elder dragon, that queen jennah's father was the king before she was, the master of peace was male.

>

> The reality is, the gender balance is not important, because arenanet are NOT doing any hint about what gender fills what role in the good/evil spectrum, there are multiple major characters of varying importance and story impact of varying genders, as good writing tends to do. Like all endeavors, some parts fall flat, while others are done better than expected.

 

It's a Human-centric thing, tied specifically around monarchy. I'm not saying good male humans don't exist, I'm simply saying female **monarchs** seem to have more prosperous reigns compared to their male counterparts in this universe.

[castlemanic.3198]

> @Westenev.5289 said:

> It's a Human-centric thing, tied specifically around monarchy. I'm not saying good male humans don't exist, I'm simply saying female **monarchs** seem to have more prosperous reigns compared to their male counterparts in this universe.

 

Ah, in that case, Nahla and Dahla, the last twin queens of the primeval dynasty, were the last in their line before being ruined by the scarab plagues. And there's also Joko to consider (Praise Joko). Reiko, while not a monarch nor emperor, did have an extremely strong hold on Cantha before being slain by players, and then the boy emperor took over (again, not a monarch).

 

But I do see the tendency for leaning more favourably towards female monarchs in human societies.

[Westenev.5289]

> @castlemanic.3198 said:

> Ah, in that case, Nahla and Dahla, the last twin queens of the primeval dynasty, were the last in their line before being ruined by the scarab plagues. And there's also Joko to consider (Praise Joko). Reiko, while not a monarch nor emperor, did have an extremely strong hold on Cantha before being slain by players, and then the boy emperor took over (again, not a monarch).

>

> But I do see the tendency for leaning more favourably towards female monarchs in human societies.

 

There isn't a heck of a lot you can do against a plague - and they only got blamed for it because their monuments were being completed when it hit. It wasn't like they actually cast the scarab plague on their people.

 

You have to admit, Joko's reign is far from perfect. He's gotten usurped more times than Lazarus has come back to life.

[castlemanic.3198]

> @Westenev.5289 said:

> There isn't a heck of a lot you can do against a plague - and they only got blamed for it because their monuments were being completed when it hit. It wasn't like they actually cast the scarab plague on their people.

>

> You have to admit, Joko's reign is far from perfect. He's gotten usurped more times than Lazarus has come back to life.

 

The twins were screwed because they were too busy partying and being lead away from their duties according to Nahla and Dahla themselves when we go through the path of fire story and meet them. Manipulated by those surrounding them. They could have done *something*, but when it was too late, they were ruined, blamed and the dynasty ended with them.

 

I also did agree with you that there was a tendency in the writing to do so, especially if you add the other two primeval monarchs, what'sherface who started the primeval dynasty and what'shisface, who i completely forgot about his accomplishments.

[draxynnic.3719]

> @castlemanic.3198 said:

> (Someone help, was it Kormir or Grenth that was most associated with Justice? Can't seem to find that info. Perhaps both.)

>

Grenth is - he is the judge of the dead, after all. There are multiple stories involving Grenth and his justice, while Kormir does not appear to have taken the role of a judge. Her domains of 'order, spirit, and truth' could mean that she does indeed have a role to play in matters of justice, but it's never come up.

[Athrenn.9468]

> @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > @castlemanic.3198 said:

> > (Someone help, was it Kormir or Grenth that was most associated with Justice? Can't seem to find that info. Perhaps both.)

> >

> Grenth is - he is the judge of the dead, after all. There are multiple stories involving Grenth and his justice, while Kormir does not appear to have taken the role of a judge. Her domains of 'order, spirit, and truth' could mean that she does indeed have a role to play in matters of justice, but it's never come up.

 

In the Trial of Julius Zamon we do see a priestess of Kormir acting as a [judicial scribe](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Judicial_Scribe "judicial scribe").

[draxynnic.3719]

> @Athrenn.9468 said:

> > @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > > @castlemanic.3198 said:

> > > (Someone help, was it Kormir or Grenth that was most associated with Justice? Can't seem to find that info. Perhaps both.)

> > >

> > Grenth is - he is the judge of the dead, after all. There are multiple stories involving Grenth and his justice, while Kormir does not appear to have taken the role of a judge. Her domains of 'order, spirit, and truth' could mean that she does indeed have a role to play in matters of justice, but it's never come up.

>

> In the Trial of Julius Zamon we do see a priestess of Kormir acting as a [judicial scribe](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Judicial_Scribe "judicial scribe").

 

Been a while since I've played that...

 

I was thinking that while Grenth is concerned with judgement, Kormir would be concerned in establishing the truth of the matter and recording what's happening.

 

Essentially, Kormir would probably be the deity invoked in the investigation and the determination of guilt or innocence, but Grenth is the god associated with delivering the sentence.

[Athrenn.9468]

> @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > @Athrenn.9468 said:

> > > @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > > > @castlemanic.3198 said:

> > > > (Someone help, was it Kormir or Grenth that was most associated with Justice? Can't seem to find that info. Perhaps both.)

> > > >

> > > Grenth is - he is the judge of the dead, after all. There are multiple stories involving Grenth and his justice, while Kormir does not appear to have taken the role of a judge. Her domains of 'order, spirit, and truth' could mean that she does indeed have a role to play in matters of justice, but it's never come up.

> >

> > In the Trial of Julius Zamon we do see a priestess of Kormir acting as a [judicial scribe](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Judicial_Scribe "judicial scribe").

>

> Been a while since I've played that...

>

> I was thinking that while Grenth is concerned with judgement, Kormir would be concerned in establishing the truth of the matter and recording what's happening.

>

> Essentially, Kormir would probably be the deity invoked in the investigation and the determination of guilt or innocence, but Grenth is the god associated with delivering the sentence.

 

I like that explanation, and it does sound perfectly reasonable to me. Here's hoping that they continue to flesh out the religious background of Krytan society rather than making them all turn atheist overnight.

[Chadramar.8156]

> @Zenith.7301 said:

> And yet their reasoning for putting Kalla in this expansion that had nothing to do with Charr was to balance it from a racial/gender perspective....

 

So? Not everything needs to be about humans. Compare PoF to HoT. Sylvari got _nothing_ in "their" expansion. No new character creation options (though of course the Elonian CC options were both badly needed and overdue from a RL POV as well, which is a different issue from the human favoritism in this game's aesthetics). No new weapons. No new armor. No elite specs. No answer to lore questions and loose ends like the Pale Tree's fate or Malyck and his tree. Barely any interactions with sylvari NPCs. Granted we can't directly compare the two, but it's still a pretty glaring difference.

 

Plus, the expansion is about Kralkatorrik as well, and charr have a huge bone to pick with that one.

 

I'd even say a Kalla-channeling charr is a perfect candidate for doing a whole load of good for Joko's brainwashed victims. If she can manage to find a diplomatic approach. :p

 

[castlemanic.3198]

> @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > @Athrenn.9468 said:

> > > @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > > > @castlemanic.3198 said:

> > > > (Someone help, was it Kormir or Grenth that was most associated with Justice? Can't seem to find that info. Perhaps both.)

> > > >

> > > Grenth is - he is the judge of the dead, after all. There are multiple stories involving Grenth and his justice, while Kormir does not appear to have taken the role of a judge. Her domains of 'order, spirit, and truth' could mean that she does indeed have a role to play in matters of justice, but it's never come up.

> >

> > In the Trial of Julius Zamon we do see a priestess of Kormir acting as a [judicial scribe](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Judicial_Scribe "judicial scribe").

>

> Been a while since I've played that...

>

> I was thinking that while Grenth is concerned with judgement, Kormir would be concerned in establishing the truth of the matter and recording what's happening.

>

> Essentially, Kormir would probably be the deity invoked in the investigation and the determination of guilt or innocence, but Grenth is the god associated with delivering the sentence.

 

That's what was confusing me. Thanks for that info, both Drax and Athrenn. I like the way how judge and executioner are partitioned among Kormir and Grenth respectively.

[Vesuvius.9874]

I'm seeing a lot of responses here questioning my question instead of providing their thoughts on why things are the way they are (which is what I had asked for). I get that some of you truly don't care about the overwhelming number of female gods in the human pantheon, while for some of the others, I get the feeling that you are pretending to not care because "it's cool". A lot of you have strayed away from topic and provided thoughts on other races. You have provided valuable information, but still strayed away from the original question about the human gods.

 

A lot of the responses have been very interesting to read so keep posting and please stay on topic.

[TeeracK.3601]

seems like a stupid thing to care about. If you want to compare who is prorated as a hero more often men win by a huge landslide across all medium, but even that doesn't mean there needs to be a huge swing to the reverse. People should just make characters and let the story play out. Their gender isn't relevant on any level.

[Tasida.4085]

Bait post yeah? LOL completely hilarious.

[draxynnic.3719]

> @castlemanic.3198 said:

> > @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > > @Athrenn.9468 said:

> > > > @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > > > > @castlemanic.3198 said:

> > > > > (Someone help, was it Kormir or Grenth that was most associated with Justice? Can't seem to find that info. Perhaps both.)

> > > > >

> > > > Grenth is - he is the judge of the dead, after all. There are multiple stories involving Grenth and his justice, while Kormir does not appear to have taken the role of a judge. Her domains of 'order, spirit, and truth' could mean that she does indeed have a role to play in matters of justice, but it's never come up.

> > >

> > > In the Trial of Julius Zamon we do see a priestess of Kormir acting as a [judicial scribe](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Judicial_Scribe "judicial scribe").

> >

> > Been a while since I've played that...

> >

> > I was thinking that while Grenth is concerned with judgement, Kormir would be concerned in establishing the truth of the matter and recording what's happening.

> >

> > Essentially, Kormir would probably be the deity invoked in the investigation and the determination of guilt or innocence, but Grenth is the god associated with delivering the sentence.

>

> That's what was confusing me. Thanks for that info, both Drax and Athrenn. I like the way how judge and executioner are partitioned among Kormir and Grenth respectively.

 

I think they've somewhat split the role of the judge there. Judges have two purposes in a criminal court case - ensuring the trial runs in an orderly fashion, and deciding the sentence if the defendant is found guilty. In a civil case, judges also act essentially as the jury in many places.

 

Grenth is definitely the god associated with deciding a sentence, but Kormir may be the deity associated with ensuring the trial runs in an orderly fashion.

 

Essentially, Kormir is invoked to ensure the truth of the matter is found - she's playing the role of the jury and of the judge _up to the moment the verdict is decided_. Grenth is the god associated with passing and executing the sentence.

 

Basically, imagine a court case where the judge simply spectates until the jury passes the verdict. That's Grenth. The actual running of the trial is performed by a separate official - and that's where Kormir's role sits.

[laverinth.5126]

Well if you look at it from the perspective of the human population, having more female gods than male might be just accepted without much issue. After all, it means there's more attractive female statues to look at, and if they're unhappy with things the men can just look at their gods and be like "women, am I right?"

 

In all seriousness though, the gods of War and Death, arguably some of the more important and well thought of aspects, are both male. When you think of a pantheon of gods in any culture, usually war and death are the most well known (aside from the leader of the gods, if one exists, which isn't an issue in this case). Balthazar may be gone, but we can't assume that all humans are going to immediately forget he existed or stop worshiping him. They haven't even really known the status of their gods for some time now. (The player character is sure to receive some flack later for this death.)

[draxynnic.3719]

As a quick note, Dwayna is said multiple times to be the leader of the gods.

 

That said, there were a few indications that Dwayna, Balthazar and Melandru were the power trio, while Grenth and Lyssa being a step down in relative ranking.

[Arden.7480]

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @Arden.7480 said:

> > Kormir said that other 5 took his powers. So they are "Gods of war".

> Kormir said they stripped him of his power, not that they took his power for themselves.

 

Isn't it the same? :P

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

> @Arden.7480 said:

> Isn't it the same? :P

Nope, not at all.

 

I can "strip" someone of their car, but that doesn't mean I have their car myself, as I could have given it to someone else.

[Alga.6498]

> @castlemanic.3198 said:

> > @Oglaf.1074 said:

> > No the Svanir have just as a proper backstory as to why they hate women. It is not just mysoggyknee for the sake of mysoggyknee. Same as the Flame Legion.

>

> "Women are not allowed to join the cult because of Jora's "crimes" against Dragon." That's the farthest thing from a proper back story in the history of anything. It's a hugely flimsy excuse to not include female svanir.

>

> And a lore excuse to explain why no female charr existed in GW1 is still an excuse, not really a proper lore based backstory. They managed to create a bunch of cool lore surrounding the freedom of female charr to help fight agains the flame legion, but it's still to cover up a fact of game development (that they never considered making female models because they never foresaw needing them for a GW2 and it's less work to model a single gender instead of both).

 

The Sons of Svanir hates women because of what Jora did to her brother in GW1.

Sons keep telling that the Norn women are weak because Jora did not follow Svanir's path. I kinda like how they're anti-female Group, makes things abit more interesting.

Same goes to the Flame Legion. They dislike females because they're weak soldiers, treat them like trash. Also very interesting.

 

I really do like these evil factions of every race, they're really interesting and I would def join each one of them if I were able to.

I love Nightmare's Court and their believe. The Bandits are White Mantle, my #1 evil faction :heart:

Inquest are even better because of their genius plans and evilness, best Asuran group ever, :)

[Narcemus.1348]

The Flame Legion don't hate women because they are weak. They banned women from the battlefield because a woman raised a rebellion against them.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bathea_Havocbringer

[Sublimatio.6981]

Males are statistically known to be more often aggressive and generally evil, and we live in times where patriarchy still dominates our societies/cultures. I don't think it's inaccurate that it's reflected in gods/semigods in our game. ANet is trying to stay realisitic in that regard I guess.

 

Though I like female villains way more. Preferably, they win. Too bad this game has to be cliche for the mass ;_;

[Weindrasi.3805]

I don't think the gender imbalance with the Gods is an issue. When you look at the game at large, there are plenty of diverse characters both male and female. As some here have mentioned about the Sons of Svanir and the Flame Legion--it doesn't make sense that--in a society where men and women are already equal--the actions of a woman would make the men decide to hate women. The Flame Legion oppressed all women because a woman spoke out against them, and the Sons banned all women because the person who killed Svanir was female. A real world equivalent would be--a woman takes a gun and shoots a bunch of people. Therefore, it becomes United States law that no woman can own a gun. Crazy, right? The fact that Sons of Svanir banned women because of Jora is equally weird. The Flame Legion... it is possible that ancient charr society or ancient Flame Legion was already very sexist before Flame Legion took over... but we have no lore on that.

With regard to female verses male villains, again, my impression is that it has been pretty even. I guess, if you want something to balance the fact that most of the Gods are female... most of the Elder Dragons we've seen are male. Zhaitan is referred to as male, Mordremoth is male, Kralkatorric is male, Jormag is referred to as male. Is there any reason the Elder Dragons seem to be males? Again, though, it isn't really important.

...Though, I think it would be a funny twist if Jormag turned out to be a FEMALE dragon. I'd love to see how the Sons of Svanir react to that.

[Zenith.7301]

> @castlemanic.3198 said:

> > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > And yet their reasoning for putting Kalla in this expansion that had nothing to do with Charr was to balance it from a racial/gender perspective....

>

> Lorewise, a charr was their only option. I've discussed this on the reddit and this subforum so I won't go into details, but with Rytlock, a charr, teaching other charr revenant magic, at the command of the top brass, also charr, why would he choose any being associated with elona and the crystal desert when he could go for one of his own as a more reliable and trustworthy starting point? We are in the lore forums so this is especially important to think of instead of tying a legend thematically to elona and forgetting about the lore.

>

> > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > Balthazar was supposedly the one who made Abbadon's chains. And in PoF he uses magic chains to bound Palawa Joko, Vlast, and Aurene.

>

> I totally forgot about the Abbadon chains thing! Good catch on all that!

 

Rytlock being the first revenant is absurd on its face to begin with. Charr would be the last race to invent channeling legends, and other more spiritual races have been channeling the power of the mists for far longer, including the Norn shamans.

 

More importantly, you sidestepped my reference to it being Kalla, a virtual unknown to most GW players, instead of Pyre just so they could check their intersectional box off.