AMA(ANets response on condition)

[xDudisx.5914]

> @Jana.6831 said:

> > @xDudisx.5914 said:

> > If condi are supposed to be dmg over time why did they make burn hit so hard? Burn is pretty much spike dmg in the form of a condition.

> They said they made it hit that hard because it was so rare.

> Don't look at me - that's what they said!

 

Well it WAS rare years ago. Few classes had it, and it was present on few skills.

 

 

 

> @ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

> ----------

> "Power is intended to be more spike damage-centric. Condi more ramping sustained damage. Currently there are some issues with how quickly condition damage can be spiked up, negating the benefits of power damage. If I presented you with a power skill that dealt 1,000 damage instantaneously and a condition one that dealt 1,000 damage over 4 seconds there wouldn’t be a question about what build to choose; you’d go with the instant option every time. Not counting other effects, condition skills must inflict more damage over their duration in order to make power vs. condi into a real choice."

> -------------

>

> Except this isnt the case. condition builds do Way, way, way more damage over that 4 seconds. I know the 1,000 damage is an example. The problem is condition builds do HUGE amounts of damage with EACH condition, given that you can have like 4 or 5 conditions applied to you within the first second a fight starts that can lead to huge burst damage. It is just not viable and i think its a sign they have ZERO intention of fixing what is wrong with conditions and have been wrong with conditions ever since THEY decided to HUGELY increase condition damage, do very little about application (being too high!) and removal (being too low!)

>

> Also, given that Condi builds are meant to SLOWLY whittle away the health of an enemy while being tanky to survive the damage, Condition damage can be as high if not HIGHER than bursat damage of most non-condition builds while being full bunker stats while the power builds need THREE stats in order to actually deal damage.

>

> Basically Condition builds deal as good if not better burst damage, better sustained damage while having the bunker stats to keep them alive much longer than power builds can because they have to sacrifice survivability in order to deal damage - unlike condi builds that need ONE stat and then go bunker on many others.

 

 

The number of condi clears if fine. Increasing it would be fixing a mistake with another one. They should reduce the number of condi sources. Right now there are way to many traits and minor things that proc condis way too fast making it hard to clear.

 

Not only condi builds do too much dmg, they also have the extra benefits that power does not. Like poison cutting your healing. They tend to have more condi duration that makes the non damaging condis also stronger than for power based users.

[mulzi.8273]

Each of the classes utility skills that clear condis should clear ALL condis on self, not just one or two. I mean, cmon. As a scourge I can dump 4 condis of various stacks with one skill in 1 sec, then follow it up with another 2-3 condis with my next button push. Condi clears cannot keep up.

 

If they want to keep the condi clear cooldowns (which are stupidily high in most cases), make them all clear all condis on use. Or drastically reduce the cooldowns on condi clear skills.

[Kidel.2057]

on bosses what really matters is the dps. I get that power is more spike, but the dps should be around the same. Ok, condi should be a bit higher, otherwise nobody would pick it, but not 1.5 times higher like it is now. Power Revenant can do at best 25k dps, while any condi class is around 40k. The only power class atm is weaver and that's a problem on its own since it's aroun 50k dps on big targets.

 

Also boons like protect lower power damage by 30% while do nothing against condi damage. We have cleanses to fight conditions, but **condi variety** makes it useless. A Scourge can apply instantly all the conditions (except confusion), making almost any cleanse useless.

 

Resistance was a nice addition to fight conditions, but it's too hard to apply and now it can be easily ripped off (again, also by Scourge).

 

Again on condi variaty: each class should apply ONE condition, 2 at best, with exceptionally long cooldowns. Give bleed to thief, torment to revenant, burning to guardian, and so on. Exceptionally you can give a long cd skill that applies poison to thiefs and necros, but that's all.

[ProverbsofHell.2307]

The damage numbers are too high, just dial the numbers back. What's the problem Anet? This just sucks. Nobody is having fun. Look at how frustrated people are all over these forums, PLEASE fix this utter disaster.

[Dusty Moon.4382]

A.Net obviously doesn't even play the same game. Condi's whittle slowly over time? Not in this meta - it is insta down.

 

I hate to say it but A.Net is out of step with reality on condi's.

[caveman.5840]

> @Silver.2076 said:

> Sometimes I think they don't understand their own game mechanics and mathematics. Or it's just the wrong people answering.

 

 

i remember when they introduced the old thief trait assassins equilibrium on twitch, lol that was such a joke -

 

“they actually told us we could counter a war hammer stun by coming out of stealth to gain stability” ………when if u had half a brain u would just dodge instead of reveal your self and take the damage —- for 1 second of stability---- lol not to mention u are in stealth so the war would have just been swinging blindly wasting skills

 

they ended up removing the trait

[XenesisII.1540]

Easiest thing to do and probably needed at this point is to put global damage caps on players, or a global damage reduction. When they start bringing out skills that can hit for 2-3 times your regular health pool, hell seen my friend burning targets for 18k/tick yesterday in pve, that's going overboard. Going forward they can make pve skills harder hitting but it will be under a cap or reduction when done to players. Others games in the past have done this.

 

Either that or you start increasing health pools to compensate. What other game increases damage across the board but doesn't increase health to keep that balance?

 

There are way too many things wrong with conditions as pointed out many times over, 25 stack cap removed, fire damage too strong since it was given stacks, too many sources of active and passive applications, too many aoes, now too many corruptions, corruption that turns mostly into damage conditions, not needing as much stats as power, resistance only from a couple reliable sources but can be corrupted, gear stats combinations that favor condition builds, cleanses that don't have priority targeting and can be screwed with garbage cover conditions, too many aoe cleanses available which gave them the excuse to increase condition applications.

 

They are never going to be able to change their now bloat skills and traits list to put conditions in a good place. If they wanted to build two separate sets of damage sources as equals then they should have built them equally under the stats too. But overall they should have left power as the main source of damage throughout the game, and conditions as control and damage pressure. That balance at least was controllable for them in the past.

 

Funny how this all started from condition players crying about doing dungeon speed runs in their garbage specs, dungeons which are now obsolete, but I guess we can count on the raiders and their dps meters, now the game is paying the price years later for the overhauled change to combat to the worse possible direction.

[coglin.1496]

> @"Dusty Moon.4382" said:

> A.Net obviously doesn't even play the same game. Condi's whittle slowly over time? Not in this meta - it is insta down.

>

> I hate to say it but A.Net is out of step with reality on condi's.

 

I believe it is more likely that you are out of step with reality. Conditions do whittle down slowly. At least much slower than any direct damage skill that has the same total damage. You are confusing multiple conditions applied from multiple skills, all doing their damage over time, at the same time, with that of instant damage. Individual skill comparisons for damage out put that are the same or similar in their damage out put prove this by one taking X amount of seconds to do Y damage with conditions, while a direct damage skill does Y damage instantly upon landing the skill.

[Inoki.6048]

> @Dawdler.8521 said:

> Indeed that is a very odd reply by Anet. They should know by now that the issue is around OP gear (trailblazers/dire) and the amount of condis certain rather ovious classes poop out. We have noted this for a long time now.

>

> Wait on second thought thats *not* very odd. Anet still havent got a clue about WvW.

 

If this was their answer on the topic then it's safe to say they know nothing of their own creation. Sad part is I've seen many good suggestions on these forums that do make a lot of sense and could help game balance a lot. One of those replies pointed out condition variety instead of power as a problem, which was worth looking into. Why do we get ignored this much I cannot understand, but on the other hand, failure of this and the previous expansion is proof not to trust them with future content.

 

For me at least - I doubt I'll buy future expansions. I was skeptical after HoT, but with PoF I'm fairly convinced.

[babazhook.6805]

> @OriOri.8724 said:

> > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > > @Jana.6831 said:

> > > > @xDudisx.5914 said:

> > > > If condi are supposed to be dmg over time why did they make burn hit so hard? Burn is pretty much spike dmg in the form of a condition.

> > > They said they made it hit that hard because it was so rare.

> > > Don't look at me - that's what they said!

> >

> > Because even 20 stacks of burn on ma huge condi damage build is 8 k per second.

> >

> > Burst is 20k in 0.1 second

>

> While the power burst damage happens faster, you conveniently ignored the fact that once the power burst is over, after that 0.1 seconds, no more burst damage is being dealt. After that condi burst is over, you are still taking 8k damage every second from attacks that already happened.

 

20k burst will drop a good segment of the population. 8K tick you can still cleanse or apply reistance whiel it clicking. It is also possible for certain classes to follow that 20k burst with yer more damage of 5k and more per hit. It not like once burst used there no further means of attacking. While the same applies to conditions the total number of skills acorss all weaponsets for all classes from all weapons still favors Power by a wide margin. There are few weapon skills (none I can think of at the moment) that offer JUST Conditions in the attack> @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

> The damage numbers are too high, just dial the numbers back. What's the problem Anet? This just sucks. Nobody is having fun. Look at how frustrated people are all over these forums, PLEASE fix this utter disaster.

 

Dialing the numbers back rather then removing the number of ways to apply conditions is probably the best way o do this as it much easier to "fine tune". Once you start removing the ways a given condition can be applied, you make Cleanses ever more powerful. With tweaking of damage output of a given condition you can start at a percentage for the more obvious ones and easily tweak back up if it goes too far.

 

If established BURN does not much damage per tick per stack, tweak that damage back 20 percent. If this too much as it makes Burn useless , put it up 10 percent and so on.

[Dusty Moon.4382]

> @coglin.1496 said:

> > @"Dusty Moon.4382" said:

> > A.Net obviously doesn't even play the same game. Condi's whittle slowly over time? Not in this meta - it is insta down.

> >

> > I hate to say it but A.Net is out of step with reality on condi's.

>

> I believe it is more likely that you are out of step with reality. Conditions do whittle down slowly. At least much slower than any direct damage skill that has the same total damage. You are confusing multiple conditions applied from multiple skills, all doing their damage over time, at the same time, with that of instant damage. Individual skill comparisons for damage out put that are the same or similar in their damage out put prove this by one taking X amount of seconds to do Y damage with conditions, while a direct damage skill does Y damage instantly upon landing the skill.

 

I am not out of step. I mean when you look at the damage done and you see 20K done by one condi and you have 6 others on you, that is NOT over time that is a spike. it was not so bad when we had resistance, and other boons, it was a little out of whack but it was a way of balancing it. Now with the massive boon stripping that can be done, It is just a race to see which blob can get the AoE condi's down faster.

 

Based on A.Net's replay, what we are seeing and what they said are 2 different things, so I stand by my statement.

[Frostwolve.2916]

I actually agree with A-NET on their take on condition damage. The damage of the conditions need to stay the same but the duration they do the damage in needs to be doubled. This would eliminate a lot of burst from condition builds but would retain the high end of condi for pve purposes. It would also give power a niche again, and would double your time to react to conditions in WvW, due to conditions not melting your face off so fast.

[dzeRnumbrd.6129]

I think we should just remove condition clearing from the game and then rebalance the condition build damage based on that (i.e., lower the overall damage that conditions can do but make it so you can't remove the damage).

 

I can't 'clear' the damage I receive from a power build, so a power build shouldn't be able to clear the damage they receive from my condition build.

 

I'm happy to do *less* damage that can't be cleared.

 

There appears to be an underlying assumption from many players that they should be able to clear conditions, which I think is false.

 

I think Arenanet's intention here is that conditions should NOT be 100% clearable whereas many players are saying things like "I don't have enough clears to clear it all" as if there is an assumption they should be able to remove conditions.

 

Once players are unable to clear conditions they'll start to understand they are taking "damage over time" not "clearable damage over time".

 

Removing the ability to clear damaging conditions makes balancing easier because the team knows "Scourge does X damage with this skill over 5 seconds" whereas now they have to make Scourge burstier to offset the clearing.

 

We could still retain condition removal for movement impairing conditions but keep bleeds, burns, poison, torment, etc from being removable.

[BassHunteR.7246]

just lower the cap on each condi for wvw and spvp.

since to much ppl hitting on wvw..make it something like 5-10 of each type.

so someone would have poison up to 7 stacks for example

burn up to 7 stacks

confusion up to 7 stacks

and so on.

and then on spvp since its only 5 players..make it something like 15-20 cause it takes longer to reach those values.

the main problem in wvw is that you get 25 stacks 0.1 sec after you jump in if you are frontline.

so its insta down..

but if you cap it at 5-10 stacks..you have some extra miliseconds to cry before dieing lol.

 

[Offair.2563]

> @Eleazar.9478 said:

> Just wanna through this out there this specific response was towards pve NOT wvw/pvp. There is another thread that talks about condition issues in wvw. lol context is your friend Mr outrage

 

Well maybe. But we all know the changes they make to pve are going straight into wvw too.

 

As long wvw doesn't get it's own skill set like spvp, things will be like this.

[Xunleashed.5271]

> @CrimeMaker.8612 said:

> "Power is intended to be more spike damage-centric. Condi more ramping sustained damage. Currently there are some issues with how quickly condition damage can be spiked up, negating the benefits of power damage. If I presented you with a power skill that dealt 1,000 damage instantaneously and a condition one that dealt 1,000 damage over 4 seconds there wouldn’t be a question about what build to choose; you’d go with the instant option every time. Not counting other effects, condition skills must inflict more damage over their duration in order to make power vs. condi into a real choice."

>

> Arena Net we get that. Thank you for the response.

>

> -You still have it wrong and have no idea what people have been complaining about.

>

> Problem 1: Condition Application -> When you have to blow all your cool downs to fight a condition build or literally build yourself around more than 2 cleanses or even 3 cleanses because 2 or 3 cleanses are just not enough. Thats a problem.

>

> Problem 2: Tanky yet stronk damage -> Arena Net the spike with power you are talking about; to get that spike we players have to run zerk or marauders while you can achieve same spike or better with condi builds while running a lot more tanky and sustain.

>

> Problem 3: Condition stack limit -> The condition not having stack limit makes sense in PvE but when you come into WvW and see 1 person having 20 stacks of burn, 30 bleeding, 30 torment and other cancer thats you straight up bs.

>

> Also arena net your 1000 DPS comparison is kind of bs because if a power can spike 1000 per second and condi doing 1000 over the period of 4 second so thats like 250 spike per second but its not 1 condition that does that tho in WvW its more than 1 condition that can tik 250 per second so thats 4k dps over the span of 4 seconds. Makes sense doesnt it? Now how does 2 or 3 condi ticking for 1000 each second while power is just 1 autos or other skills doing 1k dps each second makes sense?

 

On top of that, condition builds take more advantage from the debuffing condition thanks to duration and cover (or used to cover): weakness, poison, cripple, chill, immobilize...

[Chasind.3128]

LONG MAY CONDITION RAIN :p

[Aury.1367]

Right now condi is out of control. Ecspecially in WvW: Spellbreakers remove all boons including resistance, scourges nuke everything with condi. Thats it. No boons, you melt. Cleanse? Heh, whats that. You will have cleansed once, in the time you would went down 3 times if you dont avoid Spellbreaker bubbles and keep resistance permanently up. At this point its getting absolutly ridiculous.

[ugrakarma.9416]

> @Spurnshadow.3678 said:

> AMA: "Sorry – it is NOT intended that stacking multiple shades compounds their effects. We’re going to make changes while keeping a close eye on the power of the Scourge across game modes and **adjust it over time accordingly**. Frankly, the Sand Shades were one of the most controversial (and dangerous!) mechanics we added with the Path of Fire Elite Specs."

 

read the bold part as "it will take 2 years".

 

[reddie.5861]

> @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > @Jana.6831 said:

> > > @xDudisx.5914 said:

> > > If condi are supposed to be dmg over time why did they make burn hit so hard? Burn is pretty much spike dmg in the form of a condition.

> > They said they made it hit that hard because it was so rare.

> > Don't look at me - that's what they said!

>

> Because even 20 stacks of burn on ma huge condi damage build is 8 k per second.

>

> Burst is 20k in 0.1 second

 

with cd off?

 

top of that i dunno about you but my condi necro wont even die from full burst of a thief.

few min ago thief bursted me i just planted all marks under my own ass stood there taking burst from thief guess who died?

not me infact he didnt even scratch my balls. Im not even in dire gear so i dunno wtf ur talking about, i barely login to gw2 atm cus i tried to adopt to this condi bullshit but i dont like condi necro i cant play power build that i like (cus i cant cleanse like a fool) got more fun in PvE at the moment which i find boring as fuck aswell.

 

i dont see the down side of condi when i play my scourge i just huehue i bleed you and now i run away and let you bleed out i stay at safe distance i can reapply in a flash i dont need to keep up anything atleast a melee need to keep wacking the amount of condi's 1 person can apply if u know the other has no condi cleanse left is insane and no way for you to walk away from these condi's alive if not cleanse.

 

u see i prefer condi's to be less dmg so people need keep up condi preasure even if one doesnt cleanse or make the condis last ALOT less time so its equal to a melee that has to keep wacking your ass in order to make your HP drop.

[casantis.3106]

Still waiting for Anet response in one of the topics. (forum ones)

[Artaz.3819]

Can we just cap the amount of unmitigated damage a player is suppose to take (relative to their entire health pool) per second ?

 

i.e. if you want someone to live 8s minimum from incoming condition damage alone, condition damage should be capped at 12.5% (100%/8s) of total health pool per tick. In real game, power damage is also incoming to target and that is not capped so Time-To-Kill would still be possible to be much lower than 8s.

 

Basically it's a built-in mechanical maximum damage mitigation from conditions when there is no standard toughness or armor implicit defense. Start around there, fine tune as needed.

[Syprus Soulslayer.1640]

> @XenesisII.1540 said:

> Easiest thing to do and probably needed at this point is to put global damage caps on players, or a global damage reduction. When they start bringing out skills that can hit for 2-3 times your regular health pool, hell seen my friend burning targets for 18k/tick yesterday in pve, that's going overboard. Going forward they can make pve skills harder hitting but it will be under a cap or reduction when done to players. Others games in the past have done this.

>

> Either that or you start increasing health pools to compensate. What other game increases damage across the board but doesn't increase health to keep that balance?

>

> There are way too many things wrong with conditions as pointed out many times over, 25 stack cap removed, fire damage too strong since it was given stacks, too many sources of active and passive applications, too many aoes, now too many corruptions, corruption that turns mostly into damage conditions, not needing as much stats as power, resistance only from a couple reliable sources but can be corrupted, gear stats combinations that favor condition builds, cleanses that don't have priority targeting and can be screwed with garbage cover conditions, too many aoe cleanses available which gave them the excuse to increase condition applications.

>

> They are never going to be able to change their now bloat skills and traits list to put conditions in a good place. If they wanted to build two separate sets of damage sources as equals then they should have built them equally under the stats too. But overall they should have left power as the main source of damage throughout the game, and conditions as control and damage pressure. That balance at least was controllable for them in the past.

>

> Funny how this all started from condition players crying about doing dungeon speed runs in their garbage specs, dungeons which are now obsolete, but I guess we can count on the raiders and their dps meters, now the game is paying the price years later for the overhauled change to combat to the worse possible direction.

 

This 1000%

 

> @dzeRnumbrd.6129 said:

> I can't 'clear' the damage I receive from a power build, so a power build shouldn't be able to clear the damage they receive from my condition build.

>

But you can avoid it completely by using dodges, evades, blocks, aegis or reduce damage delt by raising your toughness plus reducing it by 33% VIA Protection....

 

 

> I'm happy to do *less* damage that can't be cleared.

>

Right, because what we need is more passive game mechanics that reward lazy 1 - 2 hit tactics where your opponent is pretty much defenseless...

 

> There appears to be an underlying assumption from many players that they should be able to clear conditions, which I think is false.

>

Let's agree to disagree, Conditions are already stronger than Burst power builds. Given the survivability, synergy with traits and runes/sigils, easy stacking and reapplication ( pretty much renders clears useless ), stats required to burst is less (1 -2, condition damage & expertise ) vs power which needs 3 stats ( Power, precision, and ferocity ) and lol at condition burst ( isn't the damage suppose to apply over time? )

 

> I think Arenanet's intention here is that conditions should NOT be 100% clearable whereas many players are saying things like "I don't have enough clears to clear it all" as if there is an assumption they should be able to remove conditions.

>

> Once players are unable to clear conditions they'll start to understand they are taking "damage over time" not "clearable damage over time".

>

> Removing the ability to clear damaging conditions makes balancing easier because the team knows "Scourge does X damage with this skill over 5 seconds" whereas now they have to make Scourge burstier to offset the clearing.

>

> We could still retain condition removal for movement impairing conditions but keep bleeds, burns, poison, torment, etc from being removable.

 

This isn't an attack just trying to wrap my head around your idea.

[momophily.3814]

How do i enphasize the OP more... i should honestly hang a billboard of the origional post out side Anets office space.

 

Maybe then they'll take the time to understand why the the majority of their WvW players hate the condi meta. And making it a condi-pirate ship meta is even worse

[saerni.2584]

People here: condition damage bursts too much

 

Condition users: we'd take a nerf to our damage as long as we can actually do our damage without being cleansed so we do no damage.

 

People here: but that makes condition damage braindead!

 

Like, pick one. Either we have massive condition cleanse and condition burst or less cleanse and less burst.

 

You can't build a viable damage over time system if people can cleanse away 100% of the damage. More cleanse means people need to be able to kill people in between cleanses, which just adds to the burst damage.

 

Damage over time that hits for 2-4K per tick (with constant application) is manageable. The issue is a few overtuned specs which have people demanding more cleanse while not realizing it's an arms race.

 

Some cleanse is fine. Too much cleanse helps hide the relative imbalance of overtuned specs and is unduly restricting on more balanced specs. (Again, 2-4K per second is fine if you get hit and keep getting hit).