“Not like WoW”? False, this game is competing with WoW

[Iozeph.5617]

> @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> Well ascended gear is account wide. Legendary gear allows stat swapping. At some point you would have enough different sets and characters at lvl 80 or legendary gear on your main where something you have should work when the meta changes. Wow has 4 seasons per expack. Is that how many stat combos are introduced and each of them meta every 2 years? I don't think so. Support chrono has been meta for over a year now. Also legendaries provide permanent progression. There is no notion of permanent gear progression like that in WoW.

>

> Also you imply pw2 aspects via gold purchases. You know that people sell raid clears in WoW too right? I could just as easily purchase gold and get heroic raid tier gear without working for it at all in WoW.

 

Ascended gear is account wide and if you want to change its attributes you have to use the mystic forge and you also lose whatever infusions and runes were in the armour/weapon when you do this- that costs. Not everyone has legendary gear - especially not newer people playing at the fringes who want to try getting into raiding or other high level content. That's similar to telling someone stuck with a busted bicycle that just across town there's a Lamborghini dealership. So we shouldn't care about there being a grind(one that seems near impossible to overcome to someone just recruited by a friend to try the game say - this year), and shouldn't want a new infusion of players to shore up raiding because the small flock of die-hards currently enjoying high tier content should be enough to prop up those modes and do more than enough to account for losses due to boredom or burnout? Right.

 

Yes, at some point if you're someone who's been playing this game for years you might have many sets of exotic armour, weapons, and accessories - but then again again you might have blown them up when you ran out of vault space because, just as with ascended gear, we're stuck sharing that space across all characters. Expansions to that space (including collections) has to be purchased via the gem store. Extra character slots(if you decided you wanted to have mules) have to be purchased as well. It's costing you time no matter how you slice it- whether it be through gem sales, or time spent farming- whether that's for gold or for the mats you need to craft certain items.

 

On progression with wow, typcially the greens of each succeeding expansion(often quest rewards) completely outclassed the epics of the one previous. So? Balance patches, and/or the need to swap attributes sets here are just as annoying in their own rights. Where as with Wow when it comes to gears for one's role the choices are a bit more limited and much of the guess work is taken out of the equation for the player. PVP gear(which tends to be burst) PVE gear, which is split between dps, tanking, and support. Much of the introductory gear is attainable via dungeons.

 

We don't have dungeons for that anymore. We have fractals. And fractals aren't everyone's cup of tea.

 

As for raid selling in wow, yes I recall it. I was there for it - they were doing it as early as MC. One player on our server even gutted his whole guild's vault just to be carried through a run of MC - hunter player, of course- and for all that misery and grief he walked out with an epic dagger that did nothing for his build(and arguably his class in general). Quite the scandal at the time. But you've ignored what I've written.

 

I'd said one difference is that it's possible today, in gw2, to get what you want by throwing money at the problem **legitimately** Gold was never easy to come by in WoW. Mostly people who got it the hard way, even if they played the auction house, didn't have the money to just throw at being carried. If they were legitimately raiding their money went back into the overhead of crafting or purchasing consumables, or gear in order to push progression. Those people who did buy slots in raids to be carried(which says they weren't part of a raiding alliance or a large raiding guild to begin with) were doing it for sums of up to two hundred gold and more - more if they'd expected to have their pick of the drops.(usually just one drop per run) Most of those people bought the gold they threw at being carried through third party gold selling sites - many of them ended up having their accounts hacked for their trouble.

 

As pay to win goes I'm not **implying** anything. Gold being bought legitimately was something done here before wow- whether or not wow decided they'd wanted to follow suit at a later date is neither here nor there. I'm not saying one game is worse than the other. All I'm saying is that gw2 is not the utopia many are painting it to be. There's still a grind- and many of them -grinds many here profess to not exist. The severity of gw2's grinds when compared to wow's were never in question. The only thing being disputed was that there were grinds at all.

 

Is there any wonder that they now sell waypoint packs for whole maps in the gem store- because even if a new player buys an expansion and instantly promotes to level eighty, they still have world clearing to do(not just for materials but for many of the newer e-specs and mounts), they still have the crafting grind, they still have masteries to level up. These are the sorts of things that stand in the way to just coming in and catching up to friends and then going on about your business - whether that be fractals, raids, whatever. So it's still a long wait listening in guild chat or discord to the fun everyone else is having right now- the fun they're going to be well bored of by the time this new player has gotten to where they 'need to be.'

 

That goes against gw2's original mission statement, and in my opinion the game has suffered, and still suffers for it. But that's just my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

[Firebeard.1746]

> @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> > > > > @"Iozeph.5617" said:

> > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> > > > > > > @"Mortifera.6138" said:

> > > > > > > I can’t believe people still say this game is not like WoW. That it caters to a different audience. That may have been true at one point, but everything since HoT has been to make this game more like WoW. They catered to hardcore players, added raids, added mounts, added grind for legendary gears, added the Skyscale grind.... No one even talks about the Manifesto anymore. So yes, this game is like WoW. Yes, they are competing.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This game is still far more casual than WoW. Are you grinding a completely new set of gear every 6 months? Is your character far below max level cap because you took a 3 year break? Everything you mention is a nice to have. Heck you can even get legendaries without raiding if you can stand a pvp grind with terrible matchmaking. And you keep those legendaries forever even of a new expansion comes out. The ones i earned in legion are useless now.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In contrast, I left GW2for 2 to 3 years and i can still play my characters and jump straight into end game activities.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Also this game offers far more permanent, yet slow progression.

> > > > >

> > > > > It's casual in just the same ways that wow is. And by the same token it's just as demanding as wow though. You now have to put a lot of time and effort in in order to get certain things you want. The major difference between wow(especially wow of old) and gw2 is that it's possible now, assuming one has the means, to shorten the way by legitimately(as in not going to third party gold selling sites) throwing money at the problem via gem purchases, conversions to gold, and then purchasing certain necessary items on the Black Lion Exchange.

> > > > >

> > > > > Much of this grinding depends on what part of the game you're invested in. GW2 is by no means monolithic- consisting of several game modes now. If you wish to be your best(read be included) in either high tier fractals, raiding, or in competitive modes(mostly WvW) then you end up chasing metas and those are dictated by the ever changing balancing and mechanics introductions made by ANet's development teams. New metas require new gearing even if it's only on the level of exotics(much of it demanding ascended and infused equipment) and this is a song and dance that's repeated as often as those metas change. Many new metas require armour and weapon stat combinations found only via grinding certain maps in order to craft them. And while it could be argued that yes, the community enforces the metas, when it comes to metas in general ANet still lays the egg first, so to speak.

> > > > >

> > > > > They know the community's temperament in regard to metas and still continue to develop the majority of their content with metas in mind(even if it's only the means to acquire the gear to meet them). What's more they've also backpedaled on their stances regarding the trinity and third party programmes which is no small thing because most raiding requires it and many raiders demand it and they(ANet) for whatever reason want a piece of that demographic.

> > > > >

> > > > > It's true that if all you ever want to do is face roll on open maps and collect your bags from meta events you shouldn't have to change much. If, however, you want something more beyond that limited vision of GW2 then your hand is indeed forced.

> > > > >

> > > > > So could we please not perpetuate this myth that there is no grinding required in GW2? At best it's only a half truth.

> > > >

> > > > Well ascended gear is account wide. Legendary gear allows stat swapping. At some point you would have enough different sets and characters at lvl 80 or legendary gear on your main where something you have should work when the meta changes. Wow has 4 seasons per expack. Is that how many stat combos are introduced and each of them meta every 2 years? I don't think so. Support chrono has been meta for over a year now. Also legendaries provide permanent progression. There is no notion of permanent gear progression like that in WoW.

> > > >

> > > > Also you imply pw2 aspects via gold purchases. You know that people sell raid clears in WoW too right? I could just as easily purchase gold and get heroic raid tier gear without working for it at all in WoW.

> > >

> > > "Progression" implies advancement, moving forward or just...in a direction. "Permanent gear progression" or "permanent progression" isn't a thing...*horizontal* progression sure, rather than moving *up* it moves to the side. Stays on the same level but is more about options rather than power.

> > >

> > > Some people don't like vertical progression, in fact I'd argue that the majority of GW2s playerbase is vehemently against vertical progression, despite each expac adding more to power creep.

> > >

> > > Also I'd say GW2s grind is not really that bad. Mostly because you're not necessarily....gaining anything out of it other than mostly just cosmetic "gain" or personal achievement. You don't have to grind anything, it essentially amounts to nothing because there isn't much to "gain" from the grind. Other games with grind, like BDO, actually have something tangible you earn that contributes overall to your character and there is meaning to spending that time doing it. Getting exp for levels, which unlocks more and stronger versions of your skills as well as money for gear which makes those skills deal more damage and allow you to survive longer. GW2 its really just for gold that you'd then use to either craft a legendary, which is really just for cosmetic and convenience purposes, or to buy cosmetics on the TP like Infusions or weapon/armor skins. Thats it.

> >

> > The reason i call legendaries progression is because no matter what new affixes are in the game, you'll immediately have access to them. The person responding to my OP implied the new affixes and/or changed meta is the progression and they're still grinding for that reason.

> >

> > On that note, Wow's progression or even BDO's is an illusion. Seasons in WoW or new weapons to enhance in BDO open a new cap and anyone chasing that cap will be more powerful than anyone who isn't. So really it's like everything you've done becomes invalidated over night and you have to start over again to compete. WoW players are finally waking up to this. It's one of the issues players are having with BFA.

>

> How many new weapons/armor do you think they release in BDO? In the years its been out...its been *one* and that happened very recently, its also only something you even touch if you've hit PEN on everything else because the investment for it is substantial.

>

> Also I dislike that outlook on it: "Everything you've done becomes invalidated." Feels kind of defeatist to me, I prefer "More reasons to continue playing the game."

>

> The draw I feel to BDO is because there is constantly something I know I can work towards and there is meaning behind it, getting all my Boss gear (armor and weapons) to PEN is a time consuming effort that can require a lot of planning, hours spent grinding and lifeskilling for money, failstacking for higher enhancement chance and luck.

>

> WoW/FFXIV I feel similarly. There is a goal I see in the distance, I know what I need to do to get there and I go for it and all that effort, even if some new update or expansion "invalidates" what I did previously just means I get to have that journey all over again to get the satisfaction yet again of achieving that goal.

>

> To have the chance to show that the effort and time I put in actually amounted to something; it is not a bad feeling. I mean it is a video game but...who is anyone to tell others how to have fun? So the idea of "that progression is an illusion because it gets invalidated" naw, that progression isn't an illusion...it happened and I get to do more of it. Getting the rare drop, getting the piece of gear I need. In BDO succeeding on upgrading my weapons and armor to TET or PEN.

>

> Trust me, I used to think *exactly* the same way that you do right now. Not so much anymore. All about perspective.

 

Interesting because i used to think the way you do now. I guess i've neen playing WoW too long. But seriously people only see your ilvl when you apply to groups. The most anything means in WoW is a mog. And don't discount the fact BDO is recently adding more weapons. They make all their money on boosts it'll happen again and you'll understand my PoV.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

> @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> > > > > > @"Iozeph.5617" said:

> > > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Mortifera.6138" said:

> > > > > > > > I can’t believe people still say this game is not like WoW. That it caters to a different audience. That may have been true at one point, but everything since HoT has been to make this game more like WoW. They catered to hardcore players, added raids, added mounts, added grind for legendary gears, added the Skyscale grind.... No one even talks about the Manifesto anymore. So yes, this game is like WoW. Yes, they are competing.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This game is still far more casual than WoW. Are you grinding a completely new set of gear every 6 months? Is your character far below max level cap because you took a 3 year break? Everything you mention is a nice to have. Heck you can even get legendaries without raiding if you can stand a pvp grind with terrible matchmaking. And you keep those legendaries forever even of a new expansion comes out. The ones i earned in legion are useless now.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > In contrast, I left GW2for 2 to 3 years and i can still play my characters and jump straight into end game activities.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Also this game offers far more permanent, yet slow progression.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It's casual in just the same ways that wow is. And by the same token it's just as demanding as wow though. You now have to put a lot of time and effort in in order to get certain things you want. The major difference between wow(especially wow of old) and gw2 is that it's possible now, assuming one has the means, to shorten the way by legitimately(as in not going to third party gold selling sites) throwing money at the problem via gem purchases, conversions to gold, and then purchasing certain necessary items on the Black Lion Exchange.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Much of this grinding depends on what part of the game you're invested in. GW2 is by no means monolithic- consisting of several game modes now. If you wish to be your best(read be included) in either high tier fractals, raiding, or in competitive modes(mostly WvW) then you end up chasing metas and those are dictated by the ever changing balancing and mechanics introductions made by ANet's development teams. New metas require new gearing even if it's only on the level of exotics(much of it demanding ascended and infused equipment) and this is a song and dance that's repeated as often as those metas change. Many new metas require armour and weapon stat combinations found only via grinding certain maps in order to craft them. And while it could be argued that yes, the community enforces the metas, when it comes to metas in general ANet still lays the egg first, so to speak.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > They know the community's temperament in regard to metas and still continue to develop the majority of their content with metas in mind(even if it's only the means to acquire the gear to meet them). What's more they've also backpedaled on their stances regarding the trinity and third party programmes which is no small thing because most raiding requires it and many raiders demand it and they(ANet) for whatever reason want a piece of that demographic.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It's true that if all you ever want to do is face roll on open maps and collect your bags from meta events you shouldn't have to change much. If, however, you want something more beyond that limited vision of GW2 then your hand is indeed forced.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So could we please not perpetuate this myth that there is no grinding required in GW2? At best it's only a half truth.

> > > > >

> > > > > Well ascended gear is account wide. Legendary gear allows stat swapping. At some point you would have enough different sets and characters at lvl 80 or legendary gear on your main where something you have should work when the meta changes. Wow has 4 seasons per expack. Is that how many stat combos are introduced and each of them meta every 2 years? I don't think so. Support chrono has been meta for over a year now. Also legendaries provide permanent progression. There is no notion of permanent gear progression like that in WoW.

> > > > >

> > > > > Also you imply pw2 aspects via gold purchases. You know that people sell raid clears in WoW too right? I could just as easily purchase gold and get heroic raid tier gear without working for it at all in WoW.

> > > >

> > > > "Progression" implies advancement, moving forward or just...in a direction. "Permanent gear progression" or "permanent progression" isn't a thing...*horizontal* progression sure, rather than moving *up* it moves to the side. Stays on the same level but is more about options rather than power.

> > > >

> > > > Some people don't like vertical progression, in fact I'd argue that the majority of GW2s playerbase is vehemently against vertical progression, despite each expac adding more to power creep.

> > > >

> > > > Also I'd say GW2s grind is not really that bad. Mostly because you're not necessarily....gaining anything out of it other than mostly just cosmetic "gain" or personal achievement. You don't have to grind anything, it essentially amounts to nothing because there isn't much to "gain" from the grind. Other games with grind, like BDO, actually have something tangible you earn that contributes overall to your character and there is meaning to spending that time doing it. Getting exp for levels, which unlocks more and stronger versions of your skills as well as money for gear which makes those skills deal more damage and allow you to survive longer. GW2 its really just for gold that you'd then use to either craft a legendary, which is really just for cosmetic and convenience purposes, or to buy cosmetics on the TP like Infusions or weapon/armor skins. Thats it.

> > >

> > > The reason i call legendaries progression is because no matter what new affixes are in the game, you'll immediately have access to them. The person responding to my OP implied the new affixes and/or changed meta is the progression and they're still grinding for that reason.

> > >

> > > On that note, Wow's progression or even BDO's is an illusion. Seasons in WoW or new weapons to enhance in BDO open a new cap and anyone chasing that cap will be more powerful than anyone who isn't. So really it's like everything you've done becomes invalidated over night and you have to start over again to compete. WoW players are finally waking up to this. It's one of the issues players are having with BFA.

> >

> > How many new weapons/armor do you think they release in BDO? In the years its been out...its been *one* and that happened very recently, its also only something you even touch if you've hit PEN on everything else because the investment for it is substantial.

> >

> > Also I dislike that outlook on it: "Everything you've done becomes invalidated." Feels kind of defeatist to me, I prefer "More reasons to continue playing the game."

> >

> > The draw I feel to BDO is because there is constantly something I know I can work towards and there is meaning behind it, getting all my Boss gear (armor and weapons) to PEN is a time consuming effort that can require a lot of planning, hours spent grinding and lifeskilling for money, failstacking for higher enhancement chance and luck.

> >

> > WoW/FFXIV I feel similarly. There is a goal I see in the distance, I know what I need to do to get there and I go for it and all that effort, even if some new update or expansion "invalidates" what I did previously just means I get to have that journey all over again to get the satisfaction yet again of achieving that goal.

> >

> > To have the chance to show that the effort and time I put in actually amounted to something; it is not a bad feeling. I mean it is a video game but...who is anyone to tell others how to have fun? So the idea of "that progression is an illusion because it gets invalidated" naw, that progression isn't an illusion...it happened and I get to do more of it. Getting the rare drop, getting the piece of gear I need. In BDO succeeding on upgrading my weapons and armor to TET or PEN.

> >

> > Trust me, I used to think *exactly* the same way that you do right now. Not so much anymore. All about perspective.

>

> Interesting because i used to think the way you do now. I guess i've neen playing WoW too long. But seriously people only see your ilvl when you apply to groups. The most anything means in WoW is a mog. And don't discount the fact BDO is recently adding more weapons. They make all their money on boosts it'll happen again and you'll understand my PoV.

 

I mean I get it...it just doesn't bother me. Becoming jaded *can* affect ones perspective for sure, and if you're tired of the treadmill thats fine but in recent years I've found a rekindled interest in it. I like having goals to achieve and having them actually hold some importance, even if they end up being "invalidated" I just end up getting the chance to do it more. I would rather not hit a "cap" and then not have anything to look forward to, which is the environment of GW2. You get your Ascended gear and you really only work on Legendary gear really just for the convenience and the cosmetics, which some people just cover with different cosmetics anyway.

 

I couldn't care less if my ilvl was all people saw when I was applying for groups, if I gotta earn a higher ilvl or gear score then so be it, I'll do that. If they add more weapons or newer gear on BDO...fine. I'll upgrade it. We definitely have different outlooks on it, I think yours stems from just needing a break from the treadmill which everyone needs from time to time.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

> @"Mortifera.6138" said:

> > @"Dante.1763" said:

> > > @"Mortifera.6138" said:

> > > > @"Dante.1763" said:

> > > > > @"Mortifera.6138" said:

> > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > @"Mortifera.6138" said:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Mortifera.6138" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Mortifera.6138" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > I can’t believe people still say this game is not like WoW. That it caters to a different audience. That may have been true at one point, but everything since HoT has been to make this game more like WoW. They catered to hardcore players, added raids, added mounts, added grind for legendary gears, added the Skyscale grind.... No one even talks about the Manifesto anymore. So yes, this game is like WoW. Yes, they are competing.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > These threads don't make sense ... if GW2 loved WoW so much, why are they here?

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Besides similarities you find still don't mean they target the same market ... THAT is what matters when you compare their competition.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I mean, you thread is like saying all restaurants compete because they sell food that is cooked and served to you. Well, obviously that's a very superficial assessment.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > No, GW doesn't compete with WoW to a great extent; their markets are different. That's why GW2 even took off in the first place.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Yes, they took off for being different, but everything they’ve added since HoT has made them more like WoW. Please read my OP before commenting.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > They still don't appeal to the same market ... Please read MY posts before commenting.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I did read your post and you are wrong, restaurants do compete.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No, you are wrong ... I didn't say restaurants don't compete. I said ALL restaurants don't compete. They can serve different markets, still be restaurants and still not compete with each other. Just like GW2 serves a different market than WoW.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > LOL, your obstenance is showing. The only reason not ALL restaurants are competing is that their locations are far from one another. MMOs are all playable on the interwebs, they are ALL competing.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Different markets though, thats the difference. If i want Italian food i go to an Italian restaurant. if i want a pvp orientated game i play WOT or WOWS not GW2. If i want a relaxed way to spend a day i play GW2 and not WOT or WOWS.

> > > >

> > > > Are they competing for my playtime, sure, but it depends on what im in the mood for. Not everybody is going to be into every game, they are trying to grab and hold onto those who have no interest in the other competition. WOW is so different from GW2 ill never play it, ive tried it once(two weeks) never went back.

> > >

> > >

> > > Yeah, grinding for a mount. So different.

> >

> > So, you ignored my entire post to say something i never mentioned? Very interesting, nowhere, in that entire post did i mention grinding at all. i mentioned playstyles, and desires fulfilled by the games, the things that actually make people play games of different kinds.

> >

> >

> > If you conduct discussions by throwing words in peoples mouths, and ignoring all that they said, perhaps you shouldnt bother posting on a forum.

>

> Face it: Guild Wars 2 became Grind Wars 2, another WoW-clone.

 

Interesting .. how does something that you call not real change from one thing to another.. I think you just like making stuff up based on the direction of the wind.

Nothing you post seem to be based on any kind of facts and when countered on what you do put out you fall back to either insults or more baseless words.

Take a minute and actually consider what it actually is your advocating for or against cos right now your looking more and more like an incoherent hater.

There doesn't appear to be much about this unreal game that you find appealing so why bother playing something you obviously dislike with a passion, why not find something else to use up your time or is it that you just love to rubbish everything anyway in an effort to troll post for numbers on forums and to get that "look at me moment"

[Luthan.5236]

The problem is: A certain amount of grind might be necessary to keep enough players playing - so a MMORPG can still stay alive. Not everyone plays "just for fun".

 

Now I'm okay with this. As long as there isn't "vertical progression" where a lot of content is unplayable without previous grind. The grind for cosmetical stuff or convenience stuff (mounts) is okay for me.

 

As long as endgame doesn't mean (only - like in WoW ... there is no other end game): Going to dungeon F ... where you have to do dungeon A 100 times to get gear to be able to do dungeon B. Then doing dungeon B 100 times ... until at some point (after lots of grind) you can do dungeon F.

 

As long as exotic gear can still do most stuff - and they continue with living story, events in open world and stuff ... totally fine do have some "raid" every now and then. Even there I guess once you get ascended or legendary gear with the "correct" build you are okay and can just jump into any new raids they throw at you.

 

The problem seems with players that need the grind as "content" and get bored. (I. e.: New raid and they'd just rush through it crying for more and getting bored - if there is no grind involved that gives them a longer amount of "fun" - for me this would not be fun.)

 

And in fact: Everything competes with WoW/GW2. I mean ... I could just play totally different game. I could just watch a movie or read a book. Or do other stuff. It's just that while GW2 exists - WoW for me is not necessary since it is a lot less good. (Because of the way they set it up with vertical gear grind.) GW2 ... or if GW2 ceases to exist or turns into a WoW-gear-grind I'll just watch more anime or do other stuff. (Not going to WoW lol. :D)

[spectrito.8513]

> @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > @"spectrito.8513" said:

> > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > @"spectrito.8513" said:

> > > > @"Vayne.8563"

> > > > @"BlueJin.4127"

> > > > Its optional but thats the only thing left to do for players that are not into WvW/PvP where (most) people play for fun and not for the grind.

> > > > Thats why farming maps are so populated and what most people do in gw2, a mind numbing farm.

> > > > Thats why so many people burnout from playing gw2, its a constant grind for gold to convert it into gems, its not challenging, rewardful or fun.

> > > > This game is in a vicious cycle, people get bored until a new map is released with more grind to get bored and wait for the next grind.

> > > > Im a player who enjoys all kinds of content except for single player story mode content(there are plenty of single players for that).

> > > > For me Gw2 lacks what wow offers, long term goals, challenging open world, meaningful PvE progression, open world PvP and competitive PvP and i can almost guarantee that at least that the reasons most people quit gw2 is among one of these topics and classic wow will drag a lot of those players.

> > > >

> > > > Dont get me wrong i really like gw2 but its turning into what retail WoW is now a grind for the sake of grind and you can already see players asking for a vanilla gw2 server.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > I don't think most players find the grind fun and I don't think most players actually grind. I have a guild full of people who don't grind but manage to get stuff. We do what's called incidental farming. It doesn't matter if it takes longer to get something because we've having fun. That's how the people I generally play with roll> We're not so goal driven. We're fun driven.

> >

> > Same here, but unfortunately thats what most people do, grind for skins and once they get it, they burnout because that what gw2 endgame offers and why you see so many people saying they dont know what to do, they are bored etc...

> > And yes, its their fault they got bored but its also gw2 lack of fun and satisfying endgame, i know this because it happened to myself when i started playing gw2 and its the reason i took a break

> > In vanilla i get the exact opposite feeling once i get a new item,while you can get frustrated at times when you lose a roll or the item didnt dropped after weeks of raiding, its so satisfying when you get what you wanted and this satisfaction is what keep most people playing the game in the long term.

> > I play gw2 for a different reason, the combat is what keeps me playing despite class balance being a disaster and powercreep, it's fun.

> >

> >

>

> How do you know this? What most people do? Have you taken a poll. Grinders are more easily seen together doing the same activity. Guys like me bounce all over. How do you know how many of us there are? How do you know how many of them there are? It's just not that simple. From my personal annecdotal experience hard core farmers are like hard core anyone else. Very loud, very visible, post a lot, you can see them, but at the same time, they don't necessarily represent a majority. I have 400 people in this guild and I'm pretty sure only a tiny percent are farmers and grinders. I actually have more achievement point hounds in my guild than I do farmers or grinders. But most of us approach the game casually or play different.

>

> I won't grind the same stuff over and over again, but I'll play different characters through content to get them through and eventually I'll get enough of something to finish stuff. I won't grind out world complete, but I'll do a bit in a zone every time I pass through it, until it's mostly done then finish it off. There's no way you can say what most people do, because how could you ever know how big my demographic is?

 

This game is called **Fashion Wars** for a reason.

 

[YoukiNeko.6047]

> @"Vayne.8563" said:

> So how do you explain that I don't like WoW and I like this game?

>

> Let's look at the list.

>

> Mounts? Completely different here. Mounts are just a speed buff in WOW. Here they have life and become an integral part of gameplay.

I've got both griffon and skyscale. I only use the other mounts if the map requires them (sand portals or beetle walls). All other are pretty much useless to me now.

 

>

> Raids? Raiding in wow is progressive. There's nothing like LFR in WOW here and more to the point, all the raids are in play all the time.

Yet everyone can enjoy raiding there. And most of the raids are pretty interesting. Raids here are only played for the legendary gear.

 

>

> Legendary gear grind? In WoW, each tier of gear has higher and higher stats, and they keep coming out with higher and higher stats. Not so hear. The last time stats were raised here was like four years ago. Legendary gear is, unlike WoW, 100% completely optional. Not having legendary gear locks you out of no content at all. So not like WoW.

Then again you don't really need top tier gier unless you are going for mythic+ in WoW. While you do need ascended for raids and tier2+ fractals.

 

>

> The Skyscale is a completely optional mount, meant to be a long term goal. People can talk about grind all they want, but that doesn't make it grind. If people had actually been playing the zones all along, they'd probably have had most of the currency saved up already. I know I did. The skyscale's biggest complaints were about time gating, rather than grind.

How is the skyscale long term if you can get it in 2 weeks?

 

>

> If you tell a WoW player that we had two expansions that neither raised the level cap, nor introduced a new tier of gear, they'd be amazed, if they even believed it.

And if you tell them that you can finish the new expansion in less than a week, they will be even more amazed.

 

>

> Again, if this game is so much like WoW, why don't I like WoW?

Maybe you burned out? Or you are currently broke? Or don't really like BFA? Or like many other players you are waiting for Classic and just killing time.

[dodgerrule.8739]

Don’t compare two games with completely different structures. It’s like comparing guild wars 2 to path of exile or wow to DOTA.

[Linken.6345]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Mortifera.6138"OK said:

> > MMOs are all playable on the interwebs, they are ALL competing.

> >

> Just because all MMO's are in the interweb doesn't mean they all compete. They serve different markets. You could have two restaurants side by side that wouldn't compete because they serve two completely different markets.

>

>

>

Please delete should have read further people already replied better.

[Linken.6345]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Mortifera.6138"OK said:

> > MMOs are all playable on the interwebs, they are ALL competing.

> >

> Just because all MMO's are in the interweb doesn't mean they all compete. They serve different markets. You could have two restaurants side by side that wouldn't compete because they serve two completely different markets.

>

>

>

Please delete should have read further people already replied better.

Edit

Doh quoted instead of editiing need more coffie

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"YoukiNeko.6047" said:

> > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > So how do you explain that I don't like WoW and I like this game?

> >

> > Let's look at the list.

> >

> > Mounts? Completely different here. Mounts are just a speed buff in WOW. Here they have life and become an integral part of gameplay.

> I've got both griffon and skyscale. I only use the other mounts if the map requires them (sand portals or beetle walls). All other are pretty much useless to me now.

>

> >

> > Raids? Raiding in wow is progressive. There's nothing like LFR in WOW here and more to the point, all the raids are in play all the time.

> Yet everyone can enjoy raiding there. And most of the raids are pretty interesting. Raids here are only played for the legendary gear.

>

> >

> > Legendary gear grind? In WoW, each tier of gear has higher and higher stats, and they keep coming out with higher and higher stats. Not so hear. The last time stats were raised here was like four years ago. Legendary gear is, unlike WoW, 100% completely optional. Not having legendary gear locks you out of no content at all. So not like WoW.

> Then again you don't really need top tier gier unless you are going for mythic+ in WoW. While you do need ascended for raids and tier2+ fractals.

>

> >

> > The Skyscale is a completely optional mount, meant to be a long term goal. People can talk about grind all they want, but that doesn't make it grind. If people had actually been playing the zones all along, they'd probably have had most of the currency saved up already. I know I did. The skyscale's biggest complaints were about time gating, rather than grind.

> How is the skyscale long term if you can get it in 2 weeks?

>

> >

> > If you tell a WoW player that we had two expansions that neither raised the level cap, nor introduced a new tier of gear, they'd be amazed, if they even believed it.

> And if you tell them that you can finish the new expansion in less than a week, they will be even more amazed.

>

> >

> > Again, if this game is so much like WoW, why don't I like WoW?

> Maybe you burned out? Or you are currently broke? Or don't really like BFA? Or like many other players you are waiting for Classic and just killing time.

 

Ah so now we have it, basically you are an ex wow player that has mistaken nostalgia for reality. Go play on a private server right now for a month and see how horribly dated and different the gaming experience is. For example be prepared to play a month to get to 60, then 2 months of heavy dungeon play repeating over and over to get min blue gear to get past performance gates in first raid. In this first raid be ready to spend a year doing it over and over to get that gear you are competing with other players to get - forget about pugs, that doesn't work in the first year. NOTHING LIKE GW2. Btw I played 11k hours on a main alone in wow, another 500 on a private server to ween myself of the gear chase addiction, and 7k in GW2 so I have a decent idea of the differences.

[Vayne.8563]

> @"spectrito.8513" said:

> > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > @"spectrito.8513" said:

> > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > @"spectrito.8513" said:

> > > > > @"Vayne.8563"

> > > > > @"BlueJin.4127"

> > > > > Its optional but thats the only thing left to do for players that are not into WvW/PvP where (most) people play for fun and not for the grind.

> > > > > Thats why farming maps are so populated and what most people do in gw2, a mind numbing farm.

> > > > > Thats why so many people burnout from playing gw2, its a constant grind for gold to convert it into gems, its not challenging, rewardful or fun.

> > > > > This game is in a vicious cycle, people get bored until a new map is released with more grind to get bored and wait for the next grind.

> > > > > Im a player who enjoys all kinds of content except for single player story mode content(there are plenty of single players for that).

> > > > > For me Gw2 lacks what wow offers, long term goals, challenging open world, meaningful PvE progression, open world PvP and competitive PvP and i can almost guarantee that at least that the reasons most people quit gw2 is among one of these topics and classic wow will drag a lot of those players.

> > > > >

> > > > > Dont get me wrong i really like gw2 but its turning into what retail WoW is now a grind for the sake of grind and you can already see players asking for a vanilla gw2 server.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I don't think most players find the grind fun and I don't think most players actually grind. I have a guild full of people who don't grind but manage to get stuff. We do what's called incidental farming. It doesn't matter if it takes longer to get something because we've having fun. That's how the people I generally play with roll> We're not so goal driven. We're fun driven.

> > >

> > > Same here, but unfortunately thats what most people do, grind for skins and once they get it, they burnout because that what gw2 endgame offers and why you see so many people saying they dont know what to do, they are bored etc...

> > > And yes, its their fault they got bored but its also gw2 lack of fun and satisfying endgame, i know this because it happened to myself when i started playing gw2 and its the reason i took a break

> > > In vanilla i get the exact opposite feeling once i get a new item,while you can get frustrated at times when you lose a roll or the item didnt dropped after weeks of raiding, its so satisfying when you get what you wanted and this satisfaction is what keep most people playing the game in the long term.

> > > I play gw2 for a different reason, the combat is what keeps me playing despite class balance being a disaster and powercreep, it's fun.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > How do you know this? What most people do? Have you taken a poll. Grinders are more easily seen together doing the same activity. Guys like me bounce all over. How do you know how many of us there are? How do you know how many of them there are? It's just not that simple. From my personal annecdotal experience hard core farmers are like hard core anyone else. Very loud, very visible, post a lot, you can see them, but at the same time, they don't necessarily represent a majority. I have 400 people in this guild and I'm pretty sure only a tiny percent are farmers and grinders. I actually have more achievement point hounds in my guild than I do farmers or grinders. But most of us approach the game casually or play different.

> >

> > I won't grind the same stuff over and over again, but I'll play different characters through content to get them through and eventually I'll get enough of something to finish stuff. I won't grind out world complete, but I'll do a bit in a zone every time I pass through it, until it's mostly done then finish it off. There's no way you can say what most people do, because how could you ever know how big my demographic is?

>

> This game is called **Fashion Wars** for a reason.

>

 

But you can play fashion wars without grinding. Fashion Wars in fact, means different things to different people. There are different ways to play and attain stuff. Do you think some people don't just open their credit card and buy stuff from the gem shop and that's all they do? That's certainly not grinding. Some people are just choosing between a selection of outfits.

 

A lot of my characters aren't using stuff I had to grind for in the first place, but even when something takes a long time to get, I don't grind for it. I tend to play more organically and get stuff when I can. I'm not particularly efficient, but I just don't like grinding. Yet I'm in full fashion wars mode myself. The fast you need to get something, the more likely you are to grind for it. The more patience you have, the less you need to grind. But it's still optional as in, I don't need that stuff to play content.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

Agree, I do exact same I slowly gather resources while playing game modes I'm in mood for, or have a gathering session if I fancy pushing for a reward. That's the whole point of gw2, layered rewards and long term optional objectives.

[TheNecrosanct.4028]

> @"Mortifera.6138" said:

> I can’t believe people still say this game is not like WoW. That it caters to a different audience. That may have been true at one point, but everything since HoT has been to make this game more like WoW. They catered to hardcore players, added raids, added mounts, added grind for legendary gears, added the Skyscale grind.... No one even talks about the Manifesto anymore. So yes, this game is like WoW. Yes, they are competing.

 

The manifesto never claimed GW2 was a purely casual game. Just like with the original GW, they wanted both casual and hard content. I don't know how long you've been playing this game, but back when it launched dungeons were hard content. Heck, even Orr was hard content, until they nerfed it (just like HoT was at launch before they nerfed that as well, and that was open world. Fractals replaced dungeons, and Raids stepped up the challenge some more. But never did it detract from any other aspects of the game. There is still casual content, as well as hard content. In fact, the former is far more prevalent than the latter.

 

Mounts in GW2 are markedly different from other MMO's. Here they serve a purpose beyond fast travel, and some of them don't even do fast travel at all. Mounts in other MMO's are just generic fast travel methods, that's all. How inspiring.

 

Grind? In GW2? You set your bar quite low. First of all the "grind" for legendary gear has always been there, since there's always been legendary gear. The fact that there's more of it now doesn't mean it's more of a grind than it ever was. Getting the Skyscale a grind? It's time consuming, yes. But a grind? Hardly. There isn't even RNG involved. Everything you need to do can be done with ease and only the beginning steps take the most time. Grinding is killing the same mobs for hours to get that certain RNG drop. It's doing the same content over and over again just to get that one piece you're looking for to get your character up to par again. Content that is usually abandoned once the sought after drops have been obtained. Once again I don't see the resemblance with GW2. Whenever I see people claim GW2 is a grindy game, I think of how easily burnt out these people get. Yet a lot of them seem to have no problems playing grindier games.

 

I agree with one thing, though. They are competing, in the way that all MMO's compete with each other to get a top spot on the market, or at the very least a stable spot. They certainly do not compete when it comes to content and game philosophy, because GW2 still approaches MMO's markedly differently than other MMO game studios.

 

Maybe it's a matter of expectation. People expect GW2 to be casual allround (which it never claimed it would be, but people seem to forget about that all the time). So when something takes a bit more time and effort, GW2 is suddenly "a grindy game". If you don't expect something, I can understand having a problem with it. When you play WoW you know to expect a new gear grind with every new expansion.

Maybe it's entitlement. I sense that a lot from people who complain about certain things only being available through certain content. Funny thing is, I hear lots of complaints from people about a legendary ring being tied to raids, or legendary armor. But how many times have I heard people complain of only being able to get The Ascension through PvP? Or certain armor skins only being available in PvP and WvW? Hardly ever. It's like PvE players expect all PvE to be accessible to them, but I don't know any other MMO that does it that way. There are always varying levels of difficulty in any MMO.

[Cerioth.7062]

Well, it's a good thing I dont give a damn about World of Warcraft.

[Lancaeron.1524]

Actually, WoW was NOTHING like GW2, until Legion hit Live, where Blizzard made the zones scaling to your level, and also where people could steal each others' kills, meaning that if you attacked something, and then someone else decided to attack the enemy the say you attack firsthand, they get a fraction of experience and loot. This is not the case in all other MMORPG's, so no...GW2 is not, and never was like WoW! WoW became more like a pay-to-play version of GW2!