Mounts do not share control paradigm with characters and it is a problem

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

> @Menadena.7482 said:

> > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

> > > @Llethander.3972 said:

> > > > @Menadena.7482 said:

> > > > > @Llethander.3972 said:

> > > > > Keyboard turning, as it is called, is sub-optimal in all aspects of every game. It is slow, inaccurate, and laborious.

> > > >

> > > > No, it is not. It is the muscle memory for games many people have which makes it EXTREMELY accurate if your brain is already wired to hit a/f or the arrows. Your experience might be different, fine, use strafe, but would YOU be happy if our positions were reversed and you could not use strafe at all because some dev thought it inaccurate?

> > >

> > > Yes, it is. Keyboard turning is statistically inferior to turning using your mouse. It's the same reason that mouse aiming is statistically superior to controller aiming. The mouse is significantly faster while offering a higher level of pinpoint precision when compared to either alternative method I described.

> >

> > Yep, mouse turning is better and faster than keyboard turning.

>

> The word "better" is highly subjective. That is like saying race x in the game is better than race y while they have no effect on gameplay beyond the size of the model.

>

> As to faster? It really depends what you are used to. Take an audible web browser. Someone not used to one thinks they are extremely slow. Now have a blind person use one on a well-designed website and you will see how fast they can be used.

>

>

 

I sometimes play with a person who keyboard turns. It’s interesting. I’ve taken off running and stop, because they’re still “shuffleshuffleshuffleshuffleshuffle finally face the direction to go” and then start moving.

 

Yeah it’s slower.

 

[Solene.3067]

When I tried Path of Fire during the Beta Weekend I felt extremely uncomfortable with the raptor mount and I think the main reason were the control issues discussed in this thread. Riding the mount felt awkward and painful for me and I was glad to dismount. For me it was reason enough not to buy Path of Fire.

 

I read that some people like the mount controls, some others do not like them. As forums users we do not know what is the majority. Most players even do not use the forums. ArenaNet does have metrics and statistics about the game, they will see how successful the expansion will be.

 

In my opinion it would be a good idea to add an option to change the mount controls to behave like the movement controls of an unmounted character. Those who prefer a "realistic" experience can still keep the current controls.

 

 

[Ashen.2907]

> @Fallesafe.5932 said:

> > @mtpelion.4562 said:

> > The mount controls feel natural and add a layer of depth that is sorely lacking in other game's mount systems. The controls add immensely to the enjoyment of the system.

> >

> > You should not expect to have fine motor control over an animal, and attempting to perform precision actions while mounted SHOULD carry a burden of higher difficulty.

>

> Right... And we should all get arthritis too, and have our endurance bars decrease faster the longer we play. Because nothing makes a game fun like slavish conformity to RL.

>

> But, of course, your point is absolutely moot since animals are FAR more nimble than we are. And skilled riders can easily turn in place (somebody even posted a video for God's sake).

 

Yeah, nothing says slavish conformity to RL quite like riding a dinosaur, a flying manta ray, or a telelorting glowing jackal.

 

We are animals. Some animals are more nimble than others, true. We are more nimble than some, others are more nimble than we are. In general more mass/size means less maneuverability.

[Healix.5819]

> @castlemanic.3198 said:

> I'm not having that issue. When I press my A or D keys, my mount spins endlessly in 360 degrees just as my character would, and I play primarily with A and D keys as turning since I don't always have a mouse available with me.

 

After a little testing, it does bug. I could guarantee it by holding W and D, then mounting while releasing W at the same time. I could also commonly cause it by holding just W, then releasing it and mounting at the same time. Once triggered, A/D becomes Q/E, except the camera snaps after you stop moving and it will persist until Q/E/S is pressed or by right clicking.

[Limodriver.4106]

serious mouse turning should be like keyboard turning so its juts like mount turning then they are all equal?

[mnpksage.4290]

I entirely disagree, it's far more immersive for mounts to move differently than players, as walking and riding another creature are wholly different experiences. One of the best parts of Arenanet's implementation of mounts is the fact that they take some time to get used to.

[Haishao.6851]

> @Solene.3067 said:

> When I tried Path of Fire during the Beta Weekend I felt extremely uncomfortable with the raptor mount and I think the main reason were the control issues discussed in this thread. Riding the mount felt awkward and painful for me and I was glad to dismount. For me it was reason enough not to buy Path of Fire.

>

> I read that some people like the mount controls, some others do not like them. As forums users we do not know what is the majority. Most players even do not use the forums. ArenaNet does have metrics and statistics about the game, they will see how successful the expansion will be.

>

> In my opinion it would be a good idea to add an option to change the mount controls to behave like the movement controls of an unmounted character. Those who prefer a "realistic" experience can still keep the current controls.

>

>

That would require them to make new animations set and behavior for the mounts.

It would also look ridiculous like something out of a 1995 game.

 

> @Limodriver.4106 said:

> serious mouse turning should be like keyboard turning so its juts like mount turning then they are all equal?

 

Keyboard turning shouldn't even be a thing anymore.

[Fallesafe.5932]

> @Ashen.2907 said:

> > @Fallesafe.5932 said:

> > > @mtpelion.4562 said:

> > > The mount controls feel natural and add a layer of depth that is sorely lacking in other game's mount systems. The controls add immensely to the enjoyment of the system.

> > >

> > > You should not expect to have fine motor control over an animal, and attempting to perform precision actions while mounted SHOULD carry a burden of higher difficulty.

> >

> > Right... And we should all get arthritis too, and have our endurance bars decrease faster the longer we play. Because nothing makes a game fun like slavish conformity to RL.

> >

> > But, of course, your point is absolutely moot since animals are FAR more nimble than we are. And skilled riders can easily turn in place (somebody even posted a video for God's sake).

>

> Yeah, nothing says slavish conformity to RL quite like riding a dinosaur, a flying manta ray, or a telelorting glowing jackal.

>

> We are animals. Some animals are more nimble than others, true. We are more nimble than some, others are more nimble than we are. In general more mass/size means less maneuverability.

 

If you're finished with these miserable little quibbles, go watch the video of the horse spinning on a dime (page 1). Thanks.

[Excellent Name.9574]

> @mnpksage.4290 said:

> I entirely disagree, it's far more immersive for mounts to move differently than players, as walking and riding another creature are wholly different experiences. One of the best parts of Arenanet's implementation of mounts is the fact that they take some time to get used to.

 

This is not about mount movements, but about controls. I will simplify the issue with a comparative....

 

Let us pretend You are playing a driving game where You can control either a car or a motorcycle. The motorcycle controls are: AWSD or left, forward, back, right but once You sit in the car, controls suddenly become something like this: AWSD or left and sometimes forward, forward and sometimes either left or right depending on the turn, back but also left and right depending where Your copilot is looking, right but also forward sometimes...I hope You get the gist as this is how mount controls work right now.

 

 

[Zaklex.6308]

> @castlemanic.3198 said:

> > @"Excellent Name.9574" said:

> > > @castlemanic.3198 said:

> > > > @"Excellent Name.9574" said:

> > > > Sure why not.

> > > >

> > > > Use either A or D key to rotate Your character, then mount up and use either A or D key to rotate Your character while mounted. The difference is that character without a mount will spin 360 degrees for as long as You like, but with your character on mount it will spin up to the 0/180 degrees and then move in the direction of either A or D key. This means that You need to actively switch to AWSD during the turn unlike with the solo character.This breaks muscle memory and it makes the mount control unnecessarily awkward. There is no benefit of mounts behaving this way when responding to controls, unless we assume that mounts are incapable of spinning, which is not the case.

> > >

> > > I'm not having that issue. When I press my A or D keys, my mount spins endlessly in 360 degrees just as my character would, and I play primarily with A and D keys as turning since I don't always have a mouse available with me.

> > >

> > > Maybe report it in the bugs forum, because that behaviour doesn't seem universal. (Speaking of I should probably head there and mention the bugs I've come across)

> >

> > It could be a bug, i just never thought about it as it seemed to be consistent. However I have been testing it for the past -10 minutes on ledgese specifically and it does not trigger every time, only most of it. Perhaps the camera locks itself once there is a chance of clipping and instead of movement following the key direction it starts following the mount direction. No idea, if true it presents a number of harder to fix issues within the game engine.

>

> I doubt the issue is about the camera, since the very behaviour of the keys themselves change, which seems to be something unrelated, and considering i've come across a similar issue with the rotation keys temporarily acting as strafing keys immediately after mounting and the behaviour then reverts to normal after a few seconds (not 100% of the time happening as well), it seems that mounts themselves have an issue about calling which function to use, that somehow varies by account.

 

It's the camera, period...he states it happens against ledges, well guess what, the camera can't rotate through a ledge to maintain that 360 degree movement control. I was trying to figure out his problem until the two posts about using A and D keys(that's how I play except sometimes I hold the right mouse button down to which creates another entirely different set of issues, funny ones at that). Anyways, go out to open terrain and hold the A or D key down and the animal will turn in a 360 degree circle as long as the camera can follow it around...however, the moment an obstacle blocks the camera movement...bingo, no more 360 degree movement. Nothing can fix that, you've just managed to get yourself in a spot where the large beast beneath you has no room to turn in a full 360 degrees...find somewhere else to turn around or, turn around in mid-air(yes, you can do that even with other mounts, you just can't change directions like the jackal).

[castlemanic.3198]

> @Zaklex.6308 said:

> It's the camera, period...he states it happens against ledges, well guess what, the camera can't rotate through a ledge to maintain that 360 degree movement control. I was trying to figure out his problem until the two posts about using A and D keys(that's how I play except sometimes I hold the right mouse button down to which creates another entirely different set of issues, funny ones at that). Anyways, go out to open terrain and hold the A or D key down and the animal will turn in a 360 degree circle as long as the camera can follow it around...however, the moment an obstacle blocks the camera movement...bingo, no more 360 degree movement. Nothing can fix that, you've just managed to get yourself in a spot where the large beast beneath you has no room to turn in a full 360 degrees...find somewhere else to turn around or, turn around in mid-air(yes, you can do that even with other mounts, you just can't change directions like the jackal).

 

I've experienced issues where getting on the mount and immediately pressing A or D (I primarily play this way) will make the mount run in that direction instead of rotating **no matter what scenery surrounds me**, with the issue going away after a few seconds. I have not experienced this matter when having cameras rotate through ledges, it has only ever happened with me right after mounting, and even then inconsistently.

 

Either way, the issue isn't the exact details of what is happening, there's no need to go into an argument about it. For the ledges situation, it seems the camera is indeed involved, with my situation ledges aren't involved at all. What needs to happen is a fix to prevent rotation input turning into movement output.

[Excellent Name.9574]

Thanks folks for chipping in with observations, Anet was paying attention to this and it seems that they modified the way how mounts turn in tight spaces late last night.

[Loken.7684]

Just get used to it it's pretty simple. Do you have a panic attack every time you play a different game?

[Djinn.9245]

> @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

> > @Menadena.7482 said:

> > > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

> > > > @Llethander.3972 said:

> > > > > @Menadena.7482 said:

> > > > > > @Llethander.3972 said:

> > > > > > Keyboard turning, as it is called, is sub-optimal in all aspects of every game. It is slow, inaccurate, and laborious.

> > > > >

> > > > > No, it is not. It is the muscle memory for games many people have which makes it EXTREMELY accurate if your brain is already wired to hit a/f or the arrows. Your experience might be different, fine, use strafe, but would YOU be happy if our positions were reversed and you could not use strafe at all because some dev thought it inaccurate?

> > > >

> > > > Yes, it is. Keyboard turning is statistically inferior to turning using your mouse. It's the same reason that mouse aiming is statistically superior to controller aiming. The mouse is significantly faster while offering a higher level of pinpoint precision when compared to either alternative method I described.

> > >

> > > Yep, mouse turning is better and faster than keyboard turning.

> >

> > The word "better" is highly subjective. That is like saying race x in the game is better than race y while they have no effect on gameplay beyond the size of the model.

> >

> > As to faster? It really depends what you are used to. Take an audible web browser. Someone not used to one thinks they are extremely slow. Now have a blind person use one on a well-designed website and you will see how fast they can be used.

> >

>

> I sometimes play with a person who keyboard turns. It’s interesting. I’ve taken off running and stop, because they’re still “shuffleshuffleshuffleshuffleshuffle finally face the direction to go” and then start moving.

>

> Yeah it’s slower.

>

I keyboard turn all the time and for me it is almost instantaneous. Your friend must have some kind of lag or settings issue.

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

> @Djinn.9245 said:

> > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

> > > @Menadena.7482 said:

> > > > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

> > > > > @Llethander.3972 said:

> > > > > > @Menadena.7482 said:

> > > > > > > @Llethander.3972 said:

> > > > > > > Keyboard turning, as it is called, is sub-optimal in all aspects of every game. It is slow, inaccurate, and laborious.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No, it is not. It is the muscle memory for games many people have which makes it EXTREMELY accurate if your brain is already wired to hit a/f or the arrows. Your experience might be different, fine, use strafe, but would YOU be happy if our positions were reversed and you could not use strafe at all because some dev thought it inaccurate?

> > > > >

> > > > > Yes, it is. Keyboard turning is statistically inferior to turning using your mouse. It's the same reason that mouse aiming is statistically superior to controller aiming. The mouse is significantly faster while offering a higher level of pinpoint precision when compared to either alternative method I described.

> > > >

> > > > Yep, mouse turning is better and faster than keyboard turning.

> > >

> > > The word "better" is highly subjective. That is like saying race x in the game is better than race y while they have no effect on gameplay beyond the size of the model.

> > >

> > > As to faster? It really depends what you are used to. Take an audible web browser. Someone not used to one thinks they are extremely slow. Now have a blind person use one on a well-designed website and you will see how fast they can be used.

> > >

> >

> > I sometimes play with a person who keyboard turns. It’s interesting. I’ve taken off running and stop, because they’re still “shuffleshuffleshuffleshuffleshuffle finally face the direction to go” and then start moving.

> >

> > Yeah it’s slower.

> >

> I keyboard turn all the time and for me it is almost instantaneous. Your friend must have some kind of lag or settings issue.

 

If you haven’t watched [this video](

) yet then I recommend you do so. It’s the first part of the video and it shows the difference in speed between the two methods. Mouse turning is almost instantaneous. Keyboard turning is markedly slower. While you might feel that your turning is fast a mouse turner will be turned around and started moving off while you’re still turning.

[Samnang.1879]

pressing the W button helps