While everyone is talking about Kralkatorrik and PoF....Here's some Jormag!

[Malignant.6581]

https://youtu.be/Ygw18oLsuYg

Basic lore stuff :D

[Oglaf.1074]

If the next expansion pack (or even the next LW installment) isn't Norn-centric and focusing on Jormag I... I might just go crazy....

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

> @Oglaf.1074 said:

> If the next expansion pack (or even the next LW installment) isn't Norn-centric and focusing on Jormag I... I might just go crazy....

I actually suspect the next expansion will be bubbles focused.

 

It makes sense from a narrative and mechanics standpoint if you think about it

1.The base game had us killing Zhaitan.

2. The first expansion was about us dealing with Mordremoth, the dragon who was opposite Zhaitan in the Antikytheria.

3. Living World Season 3 put both Jormag and Primordus(who are each other's opposites) back to sleep, effectively taking them both out of the narrative until they are needed later.

4. Path of Fire, while mainly about Balthazar, was also largely about Kralkatorik. And Living World Season 4 will likely have us dealing with Kralkatorik in some manner.

5. With Zhaitain, Mordremoth, and Kralkatorik either dead, converted, or replaced, and Jormag and Primordus asleep, this leaves bubbles, who is Kralkatorik's opposite in the Antikytheria.

6. Expansion 1 added gliders for air based travel, expansion 2 added mounts for land based travel, this leaves expansion 3 to deal with underwater travel in some form or fashion.

 

Unless Anet throws a massive curveball, and gives both Elona and Kralkatorik TWO EXPANSIONS, the above makes the most sense. Living world season 4, and maybe 5, will have us going to other parts of Elona, and dealing with the fallout from Joko being freed, and doing something with Kralkatorik. Expansion 3 will likely take us to Cantha as we deal with bubbles.

 

[TeeracK.3601]

> @Oglaf.1074 said:

> If the next expansion pack (or even the next LW installment) isn't Norn-centric and focusing on Jormag I... I might just go crazy....

 

Sounds like you need to chill out. B]

[Fenom.9457]

Time and kralkatorriks magic will wake the sleeping ones and they'll probably be next

[Luindu.2418]

I agree with Sajuuk, next expansion will be Cantha (lot of water with the "not-so-Jade Sea" xD) and new water combat mechanics, even to bring people the underwater weapons for earth specializations.

[RyuDragnier.9476]

> @Luindu.2418 said:

> I agree with Sajuuk, next expansion will be Cantha (lot of water with the "not-so-Jade Sea" xD) and new water combat mechanics, even to bring people the underwater weapons for earth specializations.

 

I'm hoping they adjust all the skills to work underwater and then either make ALL old weapons usable underwater, or just completely deck out our underwater weapon repertoire. Cause seriously...we can't use daggers underwater, we can't use swords, we can't use staves, etc. And the ones I listed make sense in being useable underwater, which is why it makes no sense that they CAN'T be used.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> Unless Anet throws a massive curveball, and gives both Elona and Kralkatorik TWO EXPANSIONS, the above makes the most sense. Living world season 4, and maybe 5, will have us going to other parts of Elona, and dealing with the fallout from Joko being freed, and doing something with Kralkatorik. Expansion 3 will likely take us to Cantha as we deal with bubbles.

 

The deep sea dragon is not at Cantha... If you delve enough into lore, one can actually pinpoint its rough location - west of the Battle Isles (by now, perhaps even *at* the sunken Battle Isles - that could be a fun destination for expansion). So unless Scleritethin begins moving once more, I'm not seeing us going to Cantha because of it.

 

And truthfully, I'd like us to go to new lands before Cantha. As much as I enjoyed Cantha in GW1, Path of Fire's inability to give the same sense of joy for exploring the Crystal Desert, Desolation, and Vabbi again (while I do enjoy NPC interactions, exploration in PoF is something I'm not fond of, and I think the mounts are to blame for it). I'd rather we head to Sunrise Crest to take on the deep sea dragon.

 

As for Kralkatorrik getting two expansions, I can fully see this. Unless we're getting a longer-than-normal LW season for Season 4 (e.g., 9 or 12 episodes), or we get two seasons back to back, I cannot see us reasonably killing Kralkatorrik in Season 4. There's too many immediate plots happening: Aurene, Joko, Dragon's Watch, solution to imbalance issue, and supercharged nigh-invulnerable Kralkatorrik.

 

Before we can take on Kralkatorrik, we not only have to figure out how to save Tyria while killing another Elder Dragon, we have to make sure Aurene is strong enough to confront Kralkatorrik (otherwise we'll just have another Glint situation) which in turn means finding Aurene first. I cannot see us solving all four problems in Season 4 - not without it being as shitty as Balthazar' "reveal".

[Fenom.9457]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > Unless Anet throws a massive curveball, and gives both Elona and Kralkatorik TWO EXPANSIONS, the above makes the most sense. Living world season 4, and maybe 5, will have us going to other parts of Elona, and dealing with the fallout from Joko being freed, and doing something with Kralkatorik. Expansion 3 will likely take us to Cantha as we deal with bubbles.

>

> The deep sea dragon is not at Cantha... If you delve enough into lore, one can actually pinpoint its rough location - west of the Battle Isles (by now, perhaps even *at* the sunken Battle Isles - that could be a fun destination for expansion). So unless Scleritethin begins moving once more, I'm not seeing us going to Cantha because of it.

>

> And truthfully, I'd like us to go to new lands before Cantha. As much as I enjoyed Cantha in GW1, Path of Fire's inability to give the same sense of joy for exploring the Crystal Desert, Desolation, and Vabbi again (while I do enjoy NPC interactions, exploration in PoF is something I'm not fond of, and I think the mounts are to blame for it). I'd rather we head to Sunrise Crest to take on the deep sea dragon.

>

> As for Kralkatorrik getting two expansions, I can fully see this. Unless we're getting a longer-than-normal LW season for Season 4 (e.g., 9 or 12 episodes), or we get two seasons back to back, I cannot see us reasonably killing Kralkatorrik in Season 4. There's too many immediate plots happening: Aurene, Joko, Dragon's Watch, solution to imbalance issue, and supercharged nigh-invulnerable Kralkatorrik.

>

> Before we can take on Kralkatorrik, we not only have to figure out how to save Tyria while killing another Elder Dragon, we have to make sure Aurene is strong enough to confront Kralkatorrik (otherwise we'll just have another Glint situation) which in turn means finding Aurene first. I cannot see us solving all four problems in Season 4 - not without it being as kitten as Balthazar' "reveal".

 

 

the final scene shows up Aurene found us

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> The deep sea dragon is not at Cantha... If you delve enough into lore, one can actually pinpoint its rough location - west of the Battle Isles (by now, perhaps even *at* the sunken Battle Isles - that could be a fun destination for expansion). So unless Scleritethin begins moving once more, I'm not seeing us going to Cantha because of it.

>

> And truthfully, I'd like us to go to new lands before Cantha. As much as I enjoyed Cantha in GW1, Path of Fire's inability to give the same sense of joy for exploring the Crystal Desert, Desolation, and Vabbi again (while I do enjoy NPC interactions, exploration in PoF is something I'm not fond of, and I think the mounts are to blame for it). I'd rather we head to Sunrise Crest to take on the deep sea dragon.

>

> As for Kralkatorrik getting two expansions, I can fully see this. Unless we're getting a longer-than-normal LW season for Season 4 (e.g., 9 or 12 episodes), or we get two seasons back to back, I cannot see us reasonably killing Kralkatorrik in Season 4. There's too many immediate plots happening: Aurene, Joko, Dragon's Watch, solution to imbalance issue, and supercharged nigh-invulnerable Kralkatorrik.

>

> Before we can take on Kralkatorrik, we not only have to figure out how to save Tyria while killing another Elder Dragon, we have to make sure Aurene is strong enough to confront Kralkatorrik (otherwise we'll just have another Glint situation) which in turn means finding Aurene first. I cannot see us solving all four problems in Season 4 - not without it being as kitten as Balthazar' "reveal".

And Primordus isn't under the Deldremor Front area... right now. Dragons move, Primordus moved, Jormag moved, Kralkatorik moved. Bubbles will be wherever Anet can make the most use of him, and get the most out of an expansion based around him, and the small ruins of the Battle Isles, isn't it IMO.

 

I personally greatly enjoyed exploring in PoF because of the mounts. And I would rather they don't try to go to new areas, simply because I very highly doubt there would be anything worth seeing in them. The Five "Elder Races" all come from the central Tyria area, and Glint, the being that saved most of the intelligent races from the last dragon rise, did so seemingly in the central Tyria region, which is why the central Tyria region has so many sentient races compared to elsewhere. I fully expect most of the unexplored regions of the world to be nothing more then large areas of endless forests, jungles, wetlands, deserts, with barely a handful of primitive tribal species, on par with the Grawl, or Hyleks. Ancient ruins of lost civilizations wouldn't be there, answers to beating the dragons wouldn't be there, there would be nothing there beyond more of what we can already get in places we have visited before. This makes sense given that many of the larger landmasses shown on the world map Anet made are labeled either after the artists who made the map, or are given generic descriptors like arid, wetlands, icy tundra, fjord, sunken islands, etc. etc. The rest of Tyria is just wilderness, as it should be. The only previously unexplored place I could see them going too are the Isles of Janthir, for more Mursaat lore, and the rest of the Charr's lands, if only because it's related to a playable race.

 

As for all those plots being resolved in Season 4, I can totally see it happening given how immediate of a threat Kralkatorik should be after absorbing so much power from Balthazar's deathsplosion. Gotta deal with him now because the balance is already upset, and Kralky gaining so much power so fast is just accelerating it. And I don't really see them doing a Kralkatorik expansion because it would literally be nothing more then Path of Fire 2: Electric Boogaloo. I don't think they could hype people on another expansion that would take place in the exact same environs we got this expansion. They have to change it up in some way, and "more Elona" especially after PoF, and likely all of Season 4, taking place in Elona, just isn't it. There would be way too much desert/badlands fatigue.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @Fenom.9457 said:

> the final scene shows up Aurene found us

 

No. The whole cinematic is happening far away. The shot with Aurene shows pretty clearly some crystals behind her, implying she's somewhere in the Dragonbrand still. But from Kralkatorrik rising in Vabbi to the shot of Aurene, none of that happens near the commander.

 

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> And Primordus isn't under the Deldremor Front area... right now. Dragons move, Primordus moved, Jormag moved, Kralkatorik moved. Bubbles will be wherever Anet can make the most use of him, and get the most out of an expansion based around him, and the small ruins of the Battle Isles, isn't it IMO.

 

Primordus was never under the Deldrimor Front area. And yeah, the DSD can move. In fact, lore indicates that he is moving, but currently, he's moving towards Tyria . How do we know? Because he's constantly pushing things towards us.

 

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> I personally greatly enjoyed exploring in PoF because of the mounts. And I would rather they don't try to go to new areas, simply because I very highly doubt there would be anything worth seeing in them.

 

Exploring old locations means that they're restricted to those locations and races we know. But going to new locations means they can create new races, new landmarks, new geography to their hearts content.

 

Given how they've been treating GW1 lore in general, it'd be more beneficial to ArenaNet to explore the huge world they depicted for us, rather than restricting themselves to old human lands.

 

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> The Five "Elder Races" all come from the central Tyria area, and Glint, the being that saved most of the intelligent races from the last dragon rise, did so seemingly in the central Tyria region, which is why the central Tyria region has so many sentient races compared to elsewhere.

 

Dwarves and Forgotten were in Cantha. Forgotten were said to be across the globe, in fact, as were tengu before they retreated to the Dominion of the Winds. Kodan survived in distant lands, so did quaggan and largos. Kodan and tengu are also heavily hinted if not outright stated to have survived the previous dragonrise without Glint's aide - so were the charr. That is rather proof that there are many sentient races beyond the areas of GW1.

 

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

Ancient ruins of lost civilizations wouldn't be there, answers to beating the dragons wouldn't be there, there would be nothing there beyond more of what we can already get in places we have visited before.

 

Sure there would be. We don't know where the Seers and mursaat lived during the previous dragonrise, for starters, and as said we have dwarven and Forgotten relics/settlements in Cantha and undoubtably elsewhere too. And this doesn't even count the countless races that were made extinct by the Elder Dragons, like the Giganticus Lupicus who have no known homeland.

 

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

This makes sense given that many of the larger landmasses shown on the world map Anet made are labeled either after the artists who made the map, or are given generic descriptors like arid, wetlands, icy tundra, fjord, sunken islands, etc. etc. The rest of Tyria is just wilderness, as it should be. The only previously unexplored place I could see them going too are the Isles of Janthir, for more Mursaat lore, and the rest of the Charr's lands, if only because it's related to a playable race.

 

Forsaken Cliffs, Thunder Cove, and Sunrise Crest aren't really generic. Furthermore, that same map you talk about also has a trade route to the Sunken Isles and Sunrise Crest, indicating that humans had been there in the past. Furthermore, that map is just human knowledge, for the most part, and not what could exist outside of human knowledge.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>Primordus was never under the Deldrimor Front area. And yeah, the DSD can move. In fact, lore indicates that he is moving, but currently, he's moving towards Tyria . How do we know? Because he's constantly pushing things towards us.

I never said he was there before, only that he isn't right now, with a suggestion that he will move there when his expansion comes around. And nothing suggests the DSD is moving. All the increase in Quaggan and Krait refugees indicates is that his corruption, whatever it may be, is spreading. The DSD could have literally not budged an inch, and achieved the same effect, so long as its corruption keep spreading outward from its location.

 

>Exploring old locations means that they're restricted to those locations and races we know. But going to new locations means they can create new races, new landmarks, new geography to their hearts content.

Which is exactly why they won't do it, because it's extra work, and game series rely on fan's connections to already established things to sell future games. This is why the Fallout series keep reusing the same factions all across post-war America, why the new Star Wars movies are basically just rehashes of the original trilogy, why CoD and Assassins Creed come out with a new game every year. Most people don't want "new" because they have no connection to it, and developers, film makers, and everyone else, doesn't want to do new because that is more budget down the drain.

 

>Dwarves and Forgotten were in Cantha. Forgotten were said to be across the globe, in fact, as were tengu before they retreated to the Dominion of the Winds. Kodan survived in distant lands, so did quaggan and largos. Kodan and tengu are also heavily hinted if not outright stated to have survived the previous dragonrise without Glint's aide - so were the charr. That is rather proof that there are many sentient races beyond the areas of GW1.

-I recall the dwarves being in Cantha bit(which was terribly stupid and made no sense how they got there)

-The Forgotten were only known to be worldwide when serving the Gods, which happened much later.

-Kodan came from the frozen north, and were seemingly the only intelligent land based race to exist up there(likely owing to the fact its the arctic circle and everything)

-Tengu coming from all around the world only validates them being all up and down the globe, as seen in GW1, not that they came from far off places we haven't seen before.

-The Charr are likely post-Dragon rise, as some of their early creation myths have Meladru creating the world(which is OFC not true) The Charr are, if anything, proof against intelligent life outside the the known world. The Charr's empire is presumably very large stretching far north and east of Ascalon, and yet the Charr make no mention of encountering any real intelligent races out there, all they mention is subjugating Grawl level races.

The whole point of groups like the Kodan and Quaggan being pushed into central Tyria was for Anet to introduce races from areas outside of the area we were comfortable with in GW1. If they wanted to suggest that there were races out in the "arid" landmass, they would have had some refugee species from there show up.

 

>Sure there would be. We don't know where the Seers and mursaat lived during the previous dragonrise, for starters, and as said we have dwarven and Forgotten relics/settlements in Cantha and undoubtably elsewhere too. And this doesn't even count the countless races that were made extinct by the Elder Dragons, like the Giganticus Lupicus who have no known homeland.

Mursaat are 99.99% likely to be from the Isles of Janthir. The whole "alliance of five races" thing doesn't work if they are spread out around the globe, as there would have been no real means for them to communicate with each other over such a large distance if they were. All of them had to have come from a centralized area, like the five allied races of today are. We also wouldn't see the ruins of races made extinct by the Elder Dragons, because the only reason we see ruins of the Elder Races is because they WEREN'T made extinct by the Elder dragons, and continued to live for thousands of years past the last Elder Dragon rise, to make new structures for us to encounter, so we could find THOSE ruins. No civilization rendered extinct by the last ED rise should have any ruins that we could find, 10,000 years of Elder Dragon corruption, and world regrowth, would have destroyed them.

 

>Forsaken Cliffs, Thunder Cove, and Sunrise Crest aren't really generic. Furthermore, that same map you talk about also has a trade route to the Sunken Isles and Sunrise Crest, indicating that humans had been there in the past. Furthermore, that map is just human knowledge, for the most part, and not what could exist outside of human knowledge.

Humans have likely been over most of the world at some point or another. The fact that no one ever mentions anything of note in those areas, despite humans having been there before, suggests that m original assumption of "its just more wilderness" is true. If anet really wanted people to think there was something of note on the Howling Peninsula, they would have had some NPC talking about the legends of the ancient explorers who supposedly found some cool things there ages ago.

 

This is true of most fantasy settings. Everything interesting takes places in a small area of the world, while the rest, and the majority, of it is literally nothing but nothing.

[Fenom.9457]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @Fenom.9457 said:

> > the final scene shows up Aurene found us

>

> No. The whole cinematic is happening far away. The shot with Aurene shows pretty clearly some crystals behind her, implying she's somewhere in the Dragonbrand still. But from Kralkatorrik rising in Vabbi to the shot of Aurene, none of that happens near the commander.

>

> > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > And Primordus isn't under the Deldremor Front area... right now. Dragons move, Primordus moved, Jormag moved, Kralkatorik moved. Bubbles will be wherever Anet can make the most use of him, and get the most out of an expansion based around him, and the small ruins of the Battle Isles, isn't it IMO.

>

> Primordus was never under the Deldrimor Front area. And yeah, the DSD can move. In fact, lore indicates that he is moving, but currently, he's moving towards Tyria . How do we know? Because he's constantly pushing things towards us.

>

> > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > I personally greatly enjoyed exploring in PoF because of the mounts. And I would rather they don't try to go to new areas, simply because I very highly doubt there would be anything worth seeing in them.

>

> Exploring old locations means that they're restricted to those locations and races we know. But going to new locations means they can create new races, new landmarks, new geography to their hearts content.

>

> Given how they've been treating GW1 lore in general, it'd be more beneficial to ArenaNet to explore the huge world they depicted for us, rather than restricting themselves to old human lands.

>

> > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > The Five "Elder Races" all come from the central Tyria area, and Glint, the being that saved most of the intelligent races from the last dragon rise, did so seemingly in the central Tyria region, which is why the central Tyria region has so many sentient races compared to elsewhere.

>

> Dwarves and Forgotten were in Cantha. Forgotten were said to be across the globe, in fact, as were tengu before they retreated to the Dominion of the Winds. Kodan survived in distant lands, so did quaggan and largos. Kodan and tengu are also heavily hinted if not outright stated to have survived the previous dragonrise without Glint's aide - so were the charr. That is rather proof that there are many sentient races beyond the areas of GW1.

>

> > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> Ancient ruins of lost civilizations wouldn't be there, answers to beating the dragons wouldn't be there, there would be nothing there beyond more of what we can already get in places we have visited before.

>

> Sure there would be. We don't know where the Seers and mursaat lived during the previous dragonrise, for starters, and as said we have dwarven and Forgotten relics/settlements in Cantha and undoubtably elsewhere too. And this doesn't even count the countless races that were made extinct by the Elder Dragons, like the Giganticus Lupicus who have no known homeland.

>

> > @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> This makes sense given that many of the larger landmasses shown on the world map Anet made are labeled either after the artists who made the map, or are given generic descriptors like arid, wetlands, icy tundra, fjord, sunken islands, etc. etc. The rest of Tyria is just wilderness, as it should be. The only previously unexplored place I could see them going too are the Isles of Janthir, for more Mursaat lore, and the rest of the Charr's lands, if only because it's related to a playable race.

>

> Forsaken Cliffs, Thunder Cove, and Sunrise Crest aren't really generic. Furthermore, that same map you talk about also has a trade route to the Sunken Isles and Sunrise Crest, indicating that humans had been there in the past. Furthermore, that map is just human knowledge, for the most part, and not what could exist outside of human knowledge.

 

'Forsaken Cliffs and Thunder Cove have always excited me. I want huge cliffs and Oceanside maps, POTC xpac pls?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> >Primordus was never under the Deldrimor Front area. And yeah, the DSD can move. In fact, lore indicates that he is moving, but currently, he's moving towards Tyria . How do we know? Because he's constantly pushing things towards us.

> I never said he was there before, only that he isn't right now, with a suggestion that he will move there when his expansion comes around. And nothing suggests the DSD is moving. All the increase in Quaggan and Krait refugees indicates is that his corruption, whatever it may be, is spreading. The DSD could have literally not budged an inch, and achieved the same effect, so long as its corruption keep spreading outward from its location.

 

If the deep sea dragon is managing to force out four entire species from their homelands, each of which are separate territories and one of which is known to be fairly large, just by its minions then it is expanding at a rate that is on par to another Elder Dragon itself moving.

 

Which would make the deep sea dragon unimaginatively more powerful than Kralkatorrik is _at the current moment_ just by how strong his minions apparently are.

 

Or, more likely, the deep sea dragon is personally moving and forcing creatures out when they're telling us "we were forced out by an Elder Dragon".

 

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> >Exploring old locations means that they're restricted to those locations and races we know. But going to new locations means they can create new races, new landmarks, new geography to their hearts content.

> Which is exactly why they won't do it, because it's extra work, and game series rely on fan's connections to already established things to sell future games. This is why the Fallout series keep reusing the same factions all across post-war America, why the new Star Wars movies are basically just rehashes of the original trilogy, why CoD and Assassins Creed come out with a new game every year. Most people don't want "new" because they have no connection to it, and developers, film makers, and everyone else, doesn't want to do new because that is more budget down the drain.

 

It's not that much more extra work, they still have to make all the models, create new lore for, and they still make up new species (Choya and Chak say hi). And no, game series do not rely on fans' connections to already established things. That's the kind of thing that ends up killing a franchise. It works for only a short while. People **do** want new. Otherwise it's just "same old same old".

 

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> >Dwarves and Forgotten were in Cantha. Forgotten were said to be across the globe, in fact, as were tengu before they retreated to the Dominion of the Winds. Kodan survived in distant lands, so did quaggan and largos. Kodan and tengu are also heavily hinted if not outright stated to have survived the previous dragonrise without Glint's aide - so were the charr. That is rather proof that there are many sentient races beyond the areas of GW1.

> -I recall the dwarves being in Cantha bit(which was terribly stupid and made no sense how they got there)

> -The Forgotten were only known to be worldwide when serving the Gods, which happened much later.

> -Kodan came from the frozen north, and were seemingly the only intelligent land based race to exist up there(likely owing to the fact its the arctic circle and everything)

> -Tengu coming from all around the world only validates them being all up and down the globe, as seen in GW1, not that they came from far off places we haven't seen before.

> -The Charr are likely post-Dragon rise, as some of their early creation myths have Meladru creating the world(which is OFC not true) The Charr are, if anything, proof against intelligent life outside the the known world. The Charr's empire is presumably very large stretching far north and east of Ascalon, and yet the Charr make no mention of encountering any real intelligent races out there, all they mention is subjugating Grawl level races.

> The whole point of groups like the Kodan and Quaggan being pushed into central Tyria was for Anet to introduce races from areas outside of the area we were comfortable with in GW1. If they wanted to suggest that there were races out in the "arid" landmass, they would have had some refugee species from there show up.

 

* How is it stupid, when we know they've had a hug bussling civilization for longer than humans? That's like saying it's stupid humans had ever made it to Elona.

* The fact that it happened is what allows ArenaNet to seed in parts of "Glint's legacy" and Forgotten ruins into any new location.

* If you can call them land-based when they lived on city ships. We actually don't know what the land-based cultures, if any, were like. The fact they exist, however, proves that cultured races can exist outside of Central Tyria.

* Actually, we're explicitly told that they came from lands we've not seen them in before - Elona is specifically named, but they do mention coming from all corners of the globe, not just from Cantha and Central Tyria.

* While they have one creation myth with Melandru, [they also have folklore about the giganticus lupicus dying to the Elder Dragons, and how charr survived because they had warbands.](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Myths_and_Legends_of_Ancient_Ascalon) While there's likely some lies in there, truths are likely in there too.

 

Your last comment there seems contradicting. They wanted to show there were things out there, but they didn't want to show there were things out there? Besides, ArenaNet has long proven that they hate writing themselves into corners. They will never say "there is absolutely nothing there" unless they're sure of it, and even then are willing to say "that prior line was unreliable narrative".

 

Most importantly, however, is this very important phrase: Lack of evidence is not evidence of lacking. Just because we have nothing telling us there are races out there, doesn't mean there aren't races out there.

 

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> >Sure there would be. We don't know where the Seers and mursaat lived during the previous dragonrise, for starters, and as said we have dwarven and Forgotten relics/settlements in Cantha and undoubtably elsewhere too. And this doesn't even count the countless races that were made extinct by the Elder Dragons, like the Giganticus Lupicus who have no known homeland.

> Mursaat are 99.99% likely to be from the Isles of Janthir. The whole "alliance of five races" thing doesn't work if they are spread out around the globe, as there would have been no real means for them to communicate with each other over such a large distance if they were. All of them had to have come from a centralized area, like the five allied races of today are.

 

There's literally nothing to connect mursaat to Janthir, beyond the Eye of Janthir. What we're told about the inhabitants of Janthir is that they had the gift of true sight. But nothing ever says the mursaat do. Furthermore, if the inhabitants of Janthir were to be the mursaat, one would think that the origins of the Eye would be "Saul got the Eye from the Unseen Ones" and not "Saul got the Eye from the inhabitants of Janthir, who are said to possess the gift of true sight". That way of phrasing almost makes it point blank clear that the inhabitants of Janthir were **NOT** mursaat.

 

I would disagree about alliance not working if they were spread acorss the globe. That would only be the case if the "elite races of the era" (as the kodan in Bitterfrost Frontier call them) who "hoarded magic for themselves" could not travel across the globe easily. Given that we have asura gates in modern Tyria, despite not being elite races hoarding magic, that seems entirely plausible back then. Furthermore, the jotun are said to have reigned across the globe in their peak, which would have been before/during the previous Dragonrise.

 

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> We also wouldn't see the ruins of races made extinct by the Elder Dragons, because the only reason we see ruins of the Elder Races is because they WEREN'T made extinct by the Elder dragons, and continued to live for thousands of years past the last Elder Dragon rise, to make new structures for us to encounter, so we could find THOSE ruins. No civilization rendered extinct by the last ED rise should have any ruins that we could find, 10,000 years of Elder Dragon corruption, and world regrowth, would have destroyed them.

 

We see structures that date back to the Dragonrise, however. Namely, [the first dwarven structures.](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bad_Blood)

 

While they may be dwarven who survived for a long time, the fact we see *any* structure that old is proof that some structures could still exist.

 

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> Humans have likely been over most of the world at some point or another. The fact that no one ever mentions anything of note in those areas, despite humans having been there before, suggests that m original assumption of "its just more wilderness" is true. If anet really wanted people to think there was something of note on the Howling Peninsula, they would have had some NPC talking about the legends of the ancient explorers who supposedly found some cool things there ages ago.

>

> This is true of most fantasy settings. Everything interesting takes places in a small area of the world, while the rest, and the majority, of it is literally nothing but nothing.

 

There is literally **nothing** to support the claim that humans were "over most of the world at some point or another" - beyond the existence of a map, but there's nothing to say the map comes from human knowledge (the guild halls have globes, and the two from HoT were inhabited by the Forgotten before the guilds, which would imply the globe and teleportation devices to be of Forgotten origin). And even if that were true, that would lead to the perfect reasoning to go and explore more of the world, besides the fact of exploring more of the world and expanding the potentials of the lore.

 

And again: lack of evidence is not evidence of lacking. Just because ArenaNet has not yet added lore about the other locations by name, doesn't mean that there's nothing there.

[Fenom.9457]

Let's be honest, no xpac will ever have only a few races in the entire thing, and any location is fair game, so anywhere will most likely have something

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

in order to keep the quote walls down

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>snip

1.

That isn't how that works. Species' territories do not always exist in clear separate chunks, and the territory of each would have overlapped the others. That the DSD pushed out four races who all lived in the depths of the oceans only shows that the DSD is expanding in the depths of the oceans. He neither has to be all that strong or powerful to achieve that, especially considering he is the only dragon in the water like that. Especially considering both the Quaggan and Krait are shown to be primitive tribalistic cultures, on par with the grawl, ogres, hylek, and skritt, with barely any sort of modernized or cohesive weaponry or military. The only underwater species shown to be developed are the Largos, who have the same fundamental weakness the Norn do, in that the operate on singular hunter/assassin organization, with no effective large scale military. The DSD has zero real barriers to its conquest of the depths. It **should** have a massive territory compared to every other Elder Dragon.

 

2.

The fact that Halo, Assassins Creed, The Elder Scrolls, Fallout, Gears of War, and others like them are some of the best selling game series to this day, and do so by constantly making the same game, with the same characters/races/factions, over and over, disproves that theory. Even newer series like Pillars of Eternity did so well by effectively plagiarizing D&D. The only "new ideas" happen in one off indie games that die after the first game because there is no consistency for the player to get attached to make it a viable long term series.

 

3.

A. It's stupid because the dwarves are shown to be mountain folk, tied up exclusively in the Shiverpeaks. If they had gone to the southern end of Cantha, where are all the dwarven ruins all across Ascalon, Orr, the Crystal Desert, Kryta, and all the other places they should have been too before getting to Cantha? Human's spread across the globe makes sense because we can see them slowly moving from Cantha, to Elona, to Tyria, and inhabiting all the places in between. The Dwarves on the other hand basically just teleported from the Shiverpeaks to Cantha, and did nothing in-between. The only dwarven ruins in an Ascalon map are in the Shiverpeak mountains to the north, and the only dwarven ruins in a Crystal Desert map are in what is actually the southern end of the Shiverpeak mountains. Showing that their borders were, in fact, the mountains.

B. Glint's legacy doesn't allow for anything of the sort. The Legacy regards her two children, ad her two children already have their own city, both of which we have already seen.

C. They are land based because they naturally like on solid ground, and not underwater like the Quaggans do. That they prefer to use their terrain to their advantage, by building their homes in giant floating icebergs, to allow for easier transportation, doesn't change that. It's like humans who live in houseboats. If there were other land based cultures living in the north along with the Kodan, we would have seen them move south due to Jormag's rise like the Kodan did. Given that neither the Kodan or the northern Quaggan mention any other species from up north, shows there aren't any. Which makes sense because basically everything north of Janthir is the arctic circle, and wouldn't be survivable for most species to begin with.

D. All corners of the globe is a generic phrase used many times in literature to mean they came from a lot of places. In case you forgot, globes don't actually have corners.

E. You got me on the Charr bit, I didn't remember that book(which is stupid IMO)

F. The comment was this. Anet already made races like the Kodan, Quaggan, and Largos, and had the Elder Dragon's rise push them inward, to show what other races existed in the world. If they wanted to have some other intelligent races out there, they would have had them pushed inwards to central Tyira also, or at least had those races that were talk about there being other races out there they don't know the fate of.

 

4.

On the Mursaat and Janthir, you seem to forget the whole "Saul got the eye from the inhabitants of Janthir who had the gift of true sight" thing was White Mantle propaganda BS to cover up how much of a lie their cult was. The fact that they do just describe them as "inhabitants" instead of using their actual name, suggests they ARE the Mursaat, because if it was anyone else, they would have just called them the "Janthirians", or w/e their race/cultural name was. The only reason to not name them specifically is if they are trying to hide something. Also, if the Mursaat didn't have the gift of true sight themselves, how could they see each other when they did their invisibility/plane shifting thing?

 

5.

Actually, the dialogue in the mission you linked says

>Magister Sieran: Older than that. The dwarven civilization lasted for more than two thousand years, and this might be one of their first structures.

Which suggests that after the last dragon rise 10,000 years ago, the Dwarven civilization collapsed, and didn't reach what we knew it was until 8,000ish years later. The structures seen in that mission aren't 10,000 years old, they are 2,000+, only about 1/5 of that time.

 

6.

While I am not in a Guild, and have never been in a guild hall as a result, the only globes I know of in the Guild Halls are ones the guild can craft

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tyrian_Globe

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Globe_of_Whispers

Both of which are stock furniture used by the five races, making them creations of the five races, and not the Forgotten.

 

And given the world ending threat of the Elder Dragons, **the races have every reason to NOT go explore the rest of the world**, because that would be a drain on resources that could otherwise better be used to fight the Dragons, and the Dragon's minions. Needing resources, and armies, is every reason why they would go to Elona and Cantha before anywhere else, as getting the armies of either Palawa Joko, or a freed Elona, and the armies of the Empire of the Dragon, are the singular best boosts one could ask for against the Elder Dragons. Going to podunk "arid" or "wetlands", or "icy tundra", or "fjord", or "sunken islands" , and recruiting whatever tribal culture is there, and having to set up the currently nonexistent resource operations, isn't going to help much in the fight.

[draxynnic.3719]

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> 1.

> That isn't how that works. Species' territories do not always exist in clear separate chunks, and the territory of each would have overlapped the others. That the DSD pushed out four races who all lived in the depths of the oceans only shows that the DSD is expanding in the depths of the oceans. He neither has to be all that strong or powerful to achieve that, especially considering he is the only dragon in the water like that. Especially considering both the Quaggan and Krait are shown to be primitive tribalistic cultures, on par with the grawl, ogres, hylek, and skritt, with barely any sort of modernized or cohesive weaponry or military. The only underwater species shown to be developed are the Largos, who have the same fundamental weakness the Norn do, in that the operate on singular hunter/assassin organization, with no effective large scale military. The DSD has zero real barriers to its conquest of the depths. It **should** have a massive territory compared to every other Elder Dragon.

 

Actually, before being driven out by the krait (who were driven out of their own former territories by the DSD), the quaggan of the southern oceans had a unified nation-state ruled over by the markissios (which seems to be essentially their royalty). The culture of isolated villages we see now is the result of having been scattered and displaced from their homeland, their royal family apparently wiped out, and having to settle in regions that aren't claimed by the natives of the region rather than being able to form a contiguous nation-state from unclaimed territory. It's not reflective of the state they were in a century ago.

 

What we know of the krait appears to be similar - they once had a coherent theocratic state, but it has fractured as it was displaced.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> in order to keep the quote walls down

Alright, I'll follow suit.

 

1. See drax's comment. He's not forcing out the equivalent of grawl tribes. He's forcing out a species compared to the charr (the krait), and two other species that are (or were) fully united.

2. We could argue without presenting facts about that topic until the sun dies out. While you say they're some of the best selling game series, there are also hundreds of complaints, most of which focus around how they're drawn out ore too repetitious. They all started strong and unique, but they fall into the same hole that CoD is continuously mocked for.

3. A.They actually aren't tied up exclusively in the Shiverpeaks *or* mountains. Edge of Destiny has an explicit dwarven village underneath Ascalon. And [the Catacombs of Kathandrax](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kathandrax_Steelsoul) are of dwarven origin. It's like complaining that the dredge are tied exclusively to the Shiverpeaks... [except they're not](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Dredge).

B. False. [We were outright told that the legacy expands beyond her children.](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Study_in_Gold) _"Glint's legacy is far more than just her offspring, and you must protect it all."_

C. Again, lack of evidence is not evidence of lacking. Just because the kodan and quaggan don't mention there are others up north, doesn't mean there aren't or never were. It just means that the topic never went that way, or they felt no need to talk about them, or they did not know about them. Besides which, when the topic does go in that direction, the quaggan talk about largos being up north too.

D. Yes, a generic phrase to mean they come from a lot of places, not just two or three. And since you intend to be an asshole with your globe comment: the phrase originates from the idea of a map, I'm pretty sure, which do have corners. More importantly, it means the furthest places apart from one another - which "Tyria, Elona, and Cantha" would not be in reference to coming from across the globe. _"We are a people of honor and structure. Long ago, tengu clans were widespread throughout the world. Then the Great Tsunami of Orr's rising heralded our journey home, to our city."_ ["widespread throughout the world"](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sangdo_Swiftwing) not "we only existed in a couple small places."

E. What's stupid is the idea that all life can be wiped out, but begin anew and to civilized empires within only a span of 10,000 years. It makes sense that the Elder Dragons are imperfect in their global extinction - how else would there be civilizations that get crushed under them. At best, the most advanced groups should be akin to the grawl's levels every single time the Elder Dragon rise otherwise. _At best_.

F. That line of thought makes no sense. "They wanted to show more races existed out there, so they had them pushed towards Tyria. But if they wanted to show more races existed out there, they would have had THOSE pushed towards Tyria too!" You're practically contradicting yourself. In addition, you're assuming that Arenanet would spend hours to figure out "what all races could exist in the world" rather than focus on what would be directly in the game, and leaving that questio nfor when they go out into the world. For example, if your argument was used for the initial release, you would be making the claim that chak and choya do not exist at all. The fact that they do proves your argument false.

4. Not everything the White Mantle said was propaganda, and nothing says that bit about the Eye was either. It would have been a greater benefit to the White Mantle if they said the Eye of Janthir was a gift from the Unseen Ones. It would provide an even greater holy importance on the artifact. Your argument also doesn't work - all it means is that ArenaNet wanted to leave it up in the air. They do this a **LOT**, having vagueness in the lore, partially in order to spark theorycrafting and partially to give them leeway in future writing without outright retcon. And who said the mursaat could see those phased out, while they themselves were not?

5. That line says that the "more than 2,000 years old structure" was one of their first. So you're saying the entire dwarven race went homeless for over 8,000 years? There are many reasons to argue otherwise. Excluding the arguments that can be made for the last dragonrise happening 3,000 years ago rather than 11,000 years ago.

6. I'm talking about [the Guild Portal](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Portal_(object%29), not a decoration. Which is a two-globe system that has the same layout as [this map](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Tyria_(world%29_map_2.png), which both the [Globe of Whispers](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Tyria_(world%29_map.jpg) and the [Tyrian Globe](http://i47.tinypic.com/33fgwar.png) (best image I can find since no one's put a non-edited one up since it's so minimal compared to the others) do not, though the former is closer.

By your argument, they would have no reason to go to Elona, because until PoF all but the DSD were in Central Tyria, not Elona or Cantha... Ah, wait, **they don't, we do.** Players' traveling != the Central Tyrian governments traveling. If ArenaNet wanted to make a reason to go elsewhere in the world, they can easily do so. It's called creating narrative.