mortrialus.3062 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 > @"praqtos.9035" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"praqtos.9035" said: > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > @"praqtos.9035" said: > > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > > > > > > @"Kumouta.4985" said: > > > > > > > > if a condi-reducing stat gets implemented, i also want to have 'power cleansing' that undoes all power damage done in the last few seconds, and the ability to go into negative health from power damage without getting downed so TTK remains similar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Power has weakness. > > > > > > > > > > > > And conditions have resistance. > > > > > Almost every class have access to weakness meanwhile very few has resistance. Suprised pikachu.gif > > > > > > > > > > > > Weakness (condition): Endurance regeneration decreased by 50%. 50% of hits are Glancing Blows (50% damage) > > > > > > > > Resistance (boon) : Conditions currently on you are ineffective > > > > > > > > > > > > Not all classes can boonrip. All can cleanse condies, however. > > > Not every class has access to insane amount of condi cleanses without making their build trash. > > > Idk why you quoted wiki about weakness/resist, but every class can boon rip with annulment/revocation :) > > > > Said build is only trash because we aren't in a condi meta, even if there's a couple of builds primarily running condition damage. > > > > And every class can cleanse with Sigils of Cleansing. There's tons of good runes like Leadership that cleanse or convert conditions and a variety of others with -20% reduced condition duration (and therefore damage) on them. > None of these actually help to deal with the amount of condis being applies/reapplied. Probably condi mirages and condi thieves(rip scourge, burn weaver worth mentioning) that vomit condis like no tomorrow suddenly not a thing (spoiler: they are) and mere cleansing sigil (1 on 9s cd) will help /s. > For how rare resistance its true that annulment/revoc can easly deal with it. No amount of cleanse gear choices, trait choices, utility choices should make any build a guaranteed win against condition builds. The number 1 counter to condition builds is the same as power builds: Use active mitigation to avoid getting hit in the first place. Yeah, cleanses should be important. Yes, they should give you an out. But people like you talk about condi like "OMG. I run a cleanse utility and condition builds can still damage me wtf" The problem isn't stuff like mesmer staff auto attack. It's literally just a 700-900 damage 1200 unit poke. Engineer rifle is a 1500 poke that pierces 5 targets. The problem is individual traits and skills like Steal being able to be traited into an instant cast animation free 7,500 damage attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praqtos.9035 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"praqtos.9035" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"praqtos.9035" said: > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > > @"praqtos.9035" said: > > > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > > > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Kumouta.4985" said: > > > > > > > > > if a condi-reducing stat gets implemented, i also want to have 'power cleansing' that undoes all power damage done in the last few seconds, and the ability to go into negative health from power damage without getting downed so TTK remains similar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Power has weakness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And conditions have resistance. > > > > > > Almost every class have access to weakness meanwhile very few has resistance. Suprised pikachu.gif > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Weakness (condition): Endurance regeneration decreased by 50%. 50% of hits are Glancing Blows (50% damage) > > > > > > > > > > Resistance (boon) : Conditions currently on you are ineffective > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not all classes can boonrip. All can cleanse condies, however. > > > > Not every class has access to insane amount of condi cleanses without making their build trash. > > > > Idk why you quoted wiki about weakness/resist, but every class can boon rip with annulment/revocation :) > > > > > > Said build is only trash because we aren't in a condi meta, even if there's a couple of builds primarily running condition damage. > > > > > > And every class can cleanse with Sigils of Cleansing. There's tons of good runes like Leadership that cleanse or convert conditions and a variety of others with -20% reduced condition duration (and therefore damage) on them. > > None of these actually help to deal with the amount of condis being applies/reapplied. Probably condi mirages and condi thieves(rip scourge, burn weaver worth mentioning) that vomit condis like no tomorrow suddenly not a thing (spoiler: they are) and mere cleansing sigil (1 on 9s cd) will help /s. > > For how rare resistance its true that annulment/revoc can easly deal with it. > > No amount of cleanse gear choices, trait choices, utility choices should make any build a guaranteed win against condition builds. The number 1 counter to condition builds is the same as power builds: Use active mitigation to avoid getting hit in the first place. Yeah, cleanses should be important. Yes, they should give you an out. But people like you talk about condi like "OMG. I run a cleanse utility and condition builds can still damage me kitten" People like me are like "OMG, I just cleansed 3, then another 3 and then another 2 and no more left but still I have 4 condis on that tick for 4k, wtf?" > The problem isn't stuff like mesmer staff auto attack. It's literally just a 700-900 damage 1200 unit poke. Engineer rifle is a 1500 poke that pierces 5 targets. The problem is individual traits and skills like Steal being able to be traited into an instant cast animation free 7,500 damage attack. Engineer rifle 1500 range? You what? Of course its a problem with a traits, we wont ever have viable condi builds that wouldnt vomit conditions 24/7 as current ones does. The only way to solve it to review condi application and cleanses, which aneD wont ever do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 > @"praqtos.9035" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > No amount of cleanse gear choices, trait choices, utility choices should make any build a guaranteed win against condition builds. The number 1 counter to condition builds is the same as power builds: Use active mitigation to avoid getting hit in the first place. Yeah, cleanses should be important. Yes, they should give you an out. But people like you talk about condi like "OMG. I run a cleanse utility and condition builds can still damage me kitten" > People like me are like "OMG, I just cleansed 3, then another 3 and then another 2 and no more left but still I have 4 condis on that tick for 4k, kitten?" This applies to power damage as well. People aren't going to stop attacking / trying to kill you because you took measures to prevent them from doing so. People will keep "reapplying" power damage after you block/mitigate it. Why do people find it so weird that after they remove conditions they end up with more on them because that's their opponents main method of trying to kill them? I hardly seem complaints around "I don't have enough mitigation to not for to power damage" yet always see this complain for conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praqtos.9035 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > @"praqtos.9035" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > No amount of cleanse gear choices, trait choices, utility choices should make any build a guaranteed win against condition builds. The number 1 counter to condition builds is the same as power builds: Use active mitigation to avoid getting hit in the first place. Yeah, cleanses should be important. Yes, they should give you an out. But people like you talk about condi like "OMG. I run a cleanse utility and condition builds can still damage me kitten" > > People like me are like "OMG, I just cleansed 3, then another 3 and then another 2 and no more left but still I have 4 condis on that tick for 4k, kitten?" > > This applies to power damage as well. People aren't going to stop attacking / trying to kill you because you took measures to prevent them from doing so. People will keep "reapplying" power damage after you block/mitigate it. > Why do people find it so weird that after they remove conditions they end up with more on them because that's their opponents main method of trying to kill them? > I hardly seem complaints around "I don't have enough mitigation to not for to power damage" yet always see this complain for conditions. I guess, its pointless to argue with people that absolutely in love with condi mirage and condi thief and trying to justify its stupidity, no thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 There is...called Resistance https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Resistance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 > @"sephiroth.4217" said: > Vitality helps. Yes thats exactly the right answer to the OP post / also resistance though this boon is a bit rare. > > Would be nice if weakness and protection were effected by conditions. And No..... weakness is a condition so its should not be effected by other conditions not to mention 1 boon counters (resistance) it an another boon simi counters it (vigor) Protection should not do anything against conditions directly though there are some traits in game that allow it to do so but as a global thing nah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 I dont think condition damage needs to be reduced. Maybe condition pressure or application checked in some areas but then numbers are generally fine. IF anything a new condition needs to be added that counters boons. I would love love love to see a condition that nullifies all boons on a player while its applied ? just as resistance nullifies all conditions on a player. Boons are out of control tbh. Something like this would help alot with shutting down boon heavy builds professions in pvp and wvw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 > @"praqtos.9035" said: > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > @"praqtos.9035" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > No amount of cleanse gear choices, trait choices, utility choices should make any build a guaranteed win against condition builds. The number 1 counter to condition builds is the same as power builds: Use active mitigation to avoid getting hit in the first place. Yeah, cleanses should be important. Yes, they should give you an out. But people like you talk about condi like "OMG. I run a cleanse utility and condition builds can still damage me kitten" > > > People like me are like "OMG, I just cleansed 3, then another 3 and then another 2 and no more left but still I have 4 condis on that tick for 4k, kitten?" > > > > This applies to power damage as well. People aren't going to stop attacking / trying to kill you because you took measures to prevent them from doing so. People will keep "reapplying" power damage after you block/mitigate it. > > Why do people find it so weird that after they remove conditions they end up with more on them because that's their opponents main method of trying to kill them? > > I hardly seem complaints around "I don't have enough mitigation to not for to power damage" yet always see this complain for conditions. > I guess, its pointless to argue with people that absolutely in love with condi mirage and condi thief and trying to justify its stupidity, no thanks. There is a big difference between complaining about very specific builds and complaining about a damage type in general, which is something people often fail at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knighthonor.4061 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 > @"roamzero.9486" said: > I thought the pvp mentality was to avoid passives. Dealing with condis the active way (removing them) takes more skill than having a stat take care of it for you right? Condi by nature are passive though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 > @"Knighthonor.4061" said: > > @"roamzero.9486" said: > > I thought the pvp mentality was to avoid passives. Dealing with condis the active way (removing them) takes more skill than having a stat take care of it for you right? > > Condi by nature are passive though No they are not: I click a button and get an up front burst of x via I click a button and get x dmg over time. Same thing, both require a click. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 > @"praqtos.9035" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"praqtos.9035" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"praqtos.9035" said: > > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > > > @"praqtos.9035" said: > > > > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Kumouta.4985" said: > > > > > > > > > > if a condi-reducing stat gets implemented, i also want to have 'power cleansing' that undoes all power damage done in the last few seconds, and the ability to go into negative health from power damage without getting downed so TTK remains similar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Power has weakness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And conditions have resistance. > > > > > > > Almost every class have access to weakness meanwhile very few has resistance. Suprised pikachu.gif > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Weakness (condition): Endurance regeneration decreased by 50%. 50% of hits are Glancing Blows (50% damage) > > > > > > > > > > > > Resistance (boon) : Conditions currently on you are ineffective > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not all classes can boonrip. All can cleanse condies, however. > > > > > Not every class has access to insane amount of condi cleanses without making their build trash. > > > > > Idk why you quoted wiki about weakness/resist, but every class can boon rip with annulment/revocation :) > > > > > > > > Said build is only trash because we aren't in a condi meta, even if there's a couple of builds primarily running condition damage. > > > > > > > > And every class can cleanse with Sigils of Cleansing. There's tons of good runes like Leadership that cleanse or convert conditions and a variety of others with -20% reduced condition duration (and therefore damage) on them. > > > None of these actually help to deal with the amount of condis being applies/reapplied. Probably condi mirages and condi thieves(rip scourge, burn weaver worth mentioning) that vomit condis like no tomorrow suddenly not a thing (spoiler: they are) and mere cleansing sigil (1 on 9s cd) will help /s. > > > For how rare resistance its true that annulment/revoc can easly deal with it. > > > > No amount of cleanse gear choices, trait choices, utility choices should make any build a guaranteed win against condition builds. The number 1 counter to condition builds is the same as power builds: Use active mitigation to avoid getting hit in the first place. Yeah, cleanses should be important. Yes, they should give you an out. But people like you talk about condi like "OMG. I run a cleanse utility and condition builds can still damage me kitten" > People like me are like "OMG, I just cleansed 3, then another 3 and then another 2 and no more left but still I have 4 condis on that tick for 4k, kitten?" > > The problem isn't stuff like mesmer staff auto attack. It's literally just a 700-900 damage 1200 unit poke. Engineer rifle is a 1500 poke that pierces 5 targets. The problem is individual traits and skills like Steal being able to be traited into an instant cast animation free 7,500 damage attack. > Engineer rifle 1500 range? You what? > Of course its a problem with a traits, we wont ever have viable condi builds that wouldnt vomit conditions 24/7 as current ones does. The only way to solve it to review condi application and cleanses, which aneD wont ever do. 1500 means it usually crits and it crits for 1,500 damage and pierce's when it does. That's not a referral to it's ranfe. Sorry for the confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 While Condi cleanses exist, that would be a bad idea. Conditions dont need new ways to reduce the damage, they need to fix the problems with both the application of condis, and the binary nature of the damage. The problem with condis is for one, most of the ways to apply conditions are hard to impossible to prevent. With power, pretty much all high-damage skills are pretty telegraphed (other than Malicious backstab in permastealth builds but thats a bullshit thing that should be removed anyway). You see a DJs clear line and hear the obnoxious sound, you dodge/block/invuln, and thats that. With condition damage, there usually is no "high-damage skill", and if there is, its usually instant. Instead, its mostly stuff that buffs your next hit, whatever hit that may be, like venoms, virtues and traits. So instead of having to just avoid the big hits, youd have to avoid all hits. Which is obviously impossible. Now that would make condi insanely broken, but there is the other problem with it, how binary it is. Thanks to condition cleansing, even if you got hit with a bunch of them, you can still negate the damage with the press of a button. If your class is able to do so reliably, that is. As a result, classes that have condi cleanse up the wazoo have no trouble at all, while those whose access to cleanses are lacking have no real option to survive. This is a rather big issue. My solution would be to do 2 things. First, change conditions into 2 categories. Debilitating conditions (Weakness, chill, slow, taunt, cripple, etc.) and damaging conditions (poison, bleed, burn, torment, etc.). Change condi cleanses all-around to no longer be able to remove damaging conditions. If you get hit by a skill, you take its damage. There would still be resistance (its kind of the equivalent to weakness, so Im fine with resistance in its limited access existing). And then, change how condis are applied, and lower their damage if neccessary. No more focus on "condi on any hit skills and traits". If you want to do high condi damage, you need to hit the big, telegraphed skills, while the condi on any hit type of skill would simply be the equivalent to the minor damage buff traits. This way, condition damage becomes less binary and problematic, retains its identity as the armour counter, and would also become more reliable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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