Braile.3894 Posted October 2, 2019 Author Share Posted October 2, 2019 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > Trust me, you don't want that. Optional subscription games always end up crippling their base functionality in order to push players towards the subscrition. > > > > > > > > > > Full, obligatory subscription is practically always a better choice than an optional one. Asking for that is just asking for a system that mixes the worst parts of both cashshop and subscription systems together. > > > > > > > > Yeah I get that but we are already at a place where the game is unplayable if you don't spend a kitten ton of money. > > > > > > > > > > Of all the ridiculous kitten spouted on the forums over the past 4 days, this statement ranks. > > > Congrats > > > > > @"kharmin.7683" said: > > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > > Yeah I get that but we are already at a place where the game is unplayable if you don't spend a kitten ton of money. > > > > > > > You must be playing a different game. How can you say that GW2 is unplayable when the only real money one needs to spend is for convenience items, and even then those items can easily be obtained through gold -> gem conversion? > > > > > > > Ok plebs tell me how enjoyable it is to start gw2 now with buying pof and dont spend any gems on 1 bag space, 2 char slots 3, shared inventory slots, 4 bank spaces, 5 material storage, 6 living world chapters. > > For someone who played the game for 7 years and spend some gems over the years or just used the time grinding it out its fine but for new players? no way. > > New players get a TON of content for 20-25 bucks (if not on sale, which makes it cheaper) with no subscription fee. Show me any other MMORPG on the market which does the same. > > If a new player applied a basic subscription approach of 10-20 bucks per month, they'd have all the convenience items they need within half a year. After which they could again go back to not spending a single dollar/Euro/etc on the game. thats not the topic, and i agree with you btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nerfworthy.9618 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 I'll add to the chorus of resounding NO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kharmin.7683 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 > @"Braile.3894" said: > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > Trust me, you don't want that. Optional subscription games always end up crippling their base functionality in order to push players towards the subscrition. > > > > > > > > Full, obligatory subscription is practically always a better choice than an optional one. Asking for that is just asking for a system that mixes the worst parts of both cashshop and subscription systems together. > > > > > > Yeah I get that but we are already at a place where the game is unplayable if you don't spend a kitten ton of money. > > > > > > > Of all the ridiculous kitten spouted on the forums over the past 4 days, this statement ranks. > > Congrats > > > @"kharmin.7683" said: > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > Yeah I get that but we are already at a place where the game is unplayable if you don't spend a kitten ton of money. > > > > > You must be playing a different game. How can you say that GW2 is unplayable when the only real money one needs to spend is for convenience items, and even then those items can easily be obtained through gold -> gem conversion? > > > > Ok plebs tell me how enjoyable it is to start gw2 now with buying pof and dont spend any gems on 1 bag space, 2 char slots 3, shared inventory slots, 4 bank spaces, 5 material storage, 6 living world chapters. > For someone who played the game for 7 years and spend some gems over the years or just used the time grinding it out its fine but for new players? no way. I wasn't arguing about it being enjoyable or not. Sure, with more convenience items, the game would be more enjoyable. I was refuting the point that the game was unplayable without these items. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inculpatus cedo.9234 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 Pleb? O...k... I've not purchased most of those things, and I find the game quite 'playable'. Perhaps, a client -repair is in order? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danikat.8537 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 > @"Braile.3894" said: > To make things clear I don't want anet to scuff the existing stuff more so more people pay a sub. How would you feel about them deliberately restricting future QoL updates to the subscription? Or deliberately creating problems so they can offer a paid solution? For example if they'd implemented this system already how would you feel if only subscribers got 'free' build templates and all non-subscribers had to buy them to be able to access the system at all? Or reducing the time when you can get a living world episode by logging in to 1-2 weeks (without increasing the frequency of releases) so more players will have to buy them or subscribe to get access? Because that's exactly where this system goes. Partially because it's a very easy way of making money and partially because some of the subscribers will never be happy with what they're getting for their money and will always demand more and more and more exclusive features, free items etc. and complain if even basic QoL updates are given to "freeloaders" who aren't subscribing. As other people have said look at Elder Scrolls Online. They didn't remove anything from the game when they went from a mandatory subscription to an optional one but over time the subscription 'benefits' have crept up with even basic features like the ability to dye outfits becoming subscriber exclusives. If you want a subscription for GW2 in return for things you can already buy from the gem store (like bank tabs) or will be able to buy soon (like build templates) the best solution is to buy a fixed amount of gems every month and use it to buy whatever you think your new subscription benefit for the month should be. That has the added bonuses that everyone gets what they want instead of having a forum full of players raging that it's a "slap in the face" that this month they only get an outfit or another useless bag slot or whatever, and that all your benefits will stay on your account even if you need to stop subscribing for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braile.3894 Posted October 2, 2019 Author Share Posted October 2, 2019 > @"Danikat.8537" said: > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > To make things clear I don't want anet to scuff the existing stuff more so more people pay a sub. > > How would you feel about them deliberately restricting future QoL updates to the subscription? Or deliberately creating problems so they can offer a paid solution? > thats already the case take a look at build templates? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kharmin.7683 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 > @"Braile.3894" said: > > @"Danikat.8537" said: > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > To make things clear I don't want anet to scuff the existing stuff more so more people pay a sub. > > > > How would you feel about them deliberately restricting future QoL updates to the subscription? Or deliberately creating problems so they can offer a paid solution? > > > thats already the case take a look at build templates? > You're seriously arguing that ANet deliberately chose not to have templates and now will implement them as a paid solution to a "problem"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perilisk.1874 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 > @"yoni.7015" said: > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > Hey, I hope anet sees this thread. > > > > So basically my idea is an optional subscription for gw2 for convenience stuff like: > > - Unlimited build and gear templates or atleast give us an incredible high cap. > > - Increased bag size / bank size / material storage size. > > - previous lw chapters are fully accessible even tho you didn't catch them at release while you are subbed. > > - maybe some unique cosmetic stuff? > > > > Keep in mind that it's still bad as a customer to pay for all this stuff but while some of us are still engaged enough to pay for a sub like this but are not willing to spend hundreds of euro for a build template system that doesn't work in high end > > How do you know that you have to spend hundreds (!) of euros for the build template system? > > > > Well, we could look at other things to make an educated guess about prices. Let's assume the account upgrades are 800g/3, the build slots are 400/1, and the gear slots are 600/1. Yes, we don't know exactly, but we know what they charge for similar items. It's probably not too far off the mark. Let's also assume a basic account with 5 characters, who missed the temporary discount on the first account upgrade, and wants all template system upgrades. From what we know, they can buy 21 extra account slots (7 * 800g), 3 extra build slots per character (5 * 3 * 400g), and 4 extra gear slots per character (5 * 4 * 600g). That's a grand total of 23,600 gems. At 800 gems for $10, that's $295 USD. You can convert to Euros on your own. If you use more characters, it may be higher. If you don't fully utilize the system it will be lower. If you take your free gear slot and say "thanks, bye", as a lot of casuals will do, it will be 0. But this is the general scale of number you are looking at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kharmin.7683 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 $15 subscription x 12 months = $180. Less than the $295 in the post above, sure, but then year two is another $180 which brings the total to $360 (now higher than $295). So, over time the current "suggested" price makes more sense. Also, what would happen to the templates if a subscription lapses or if a player no longer is able (or wants) to pay it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindcircus.1506 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 > @"Braile.3894" said: > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > Trust me, you don't want that. Optional subscription games always end up crippling their base functionality in order to push players towards the subscrition. > > > > > > > > Full, obligatory subscription is practically always a better choice than an optional one. Asking for that is just asking for a system that mixes the worst parts of both cashshop and subscription systems together. > > > > > > Yeah I get that but we are already at a place where the game is unplayable if you don't spend a kitten ton of money. > > > > > > > Of all the ridiculous kitten spouted on the forums over the past 4 days, this statement ranks. > > Congrats > > > @"kharmin.7683" said: > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > Yeah I get that but we are already at a place where the game is unplayable if you don't spend a kitten ton of money. > > > > > You must be playing a different game. How can you say that GW2 is unplayable when the only real money one needs to spend is for convenience items, and even then those items can easily be obtained through gold -> gem conversion? > > > > Ok plebs tell me how enjoyable it is to start gw2 now with buying pof and dont spend any gems on 1 bag space, 2 char slots 3, shared inventory slots, 4 bank spaces, 5 material storage, 6 living world chapters. > For someone who played the game for 7 years and spend some gems over the years or just used the time grinding it out its fine but for new players? no way. Your list of "must haves" is absolutely hyperbolic. I'm 3.5 years in and have never seen a need for additional bag slots,I've never once purchased a Shared Inventory Slot, and most players I know get along just fine with only 1 or two material storage expansions. Many players I know don't play more than a couple alts. The LW stuff is absolutely optional. Other than the story LW2 is only good for mastery points, LW3's only real use is ascended trinkets and LW4's only use are two completely optional mounts. A player could absolutely drop 40-50 bucks on this game for the expansion and a couple of convenience upgrades like a couple of bank tabs, and a storage expander and do just fine for many many months. Compare this to BDO's barrier for entry, ESO's DLC+"optional" sub model or FF14's Boxed expansion+monthly sub cost and you would have on crack to claim this game's price for new players is high in any way compared to other games in the genre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > Trust me, you don't want that. Optional subscription games always end up crippling their base functionality in order to push players towards the subscrition. > > > > > > > > > > Full, obligatory subscription is practically always a better choice than an optional one. Asking for that is just asking for a system that mixes the worst parts of both cashshop and subscription systems together. > > > > > > > > Yeah I get that but we are already at a place where the game is unplayable if you don't spend a kitten ton of money. > > > > > > > > > > Of all the ridiculous kitten spouted on the forums over the past 4 days, this statement ranks. > > > Congrats > > > > > @"kharmin.7683" said: > > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > > Yeah I get that but we are already at a place where the game is unplayable if you don't spend a kitten ton of money. > > > > > > > You must be playing a different game. How can you say that GW2 is unplayable when the only real money one needs to spend is for convenience items, and even then those items can easily be obtained through gold -> gem conversion? > > > > > > > Ok plebs tell me how enjoyable it is to start gw2 now with buying pof and dont spend any gems on 1 bag space, 2 char slots 3, shared inventory slots, 4 bank spaces, 5 material storage, 6 living world chapters. > > For someone who played the game for 7 years and spend some gems over the years or just used the time grinding it out its fine but for new players? no way. > > New players get a TON of content for 20-25 bucks (if not on sale, which makes it cheaper) with no subscription fee. Show me any other MMORPG on the market which does the same. > > If a new player applied a basic subscription approach of 10-20 bucks per month, they'd have all the convenience items they need within half a year. After which they could again go back to not spending a single dollar/Euro/etc on the game. Or you tie such convenience in having the sub active. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindcircus.1506 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > Trust me, you don't want that. Optional subscription games always end up crippling their base functionality in order to push players towards the subscrition. > > > > > > > > > > > > Full, obligatory subscription is practically always a better choice than an optional one. Asking for that is just asking for a system that mixes the worst parts of both cashshop and subscription systems together. > > > > > > > > > > Yeah I get that but we are already at a place where the game is unplayable if you don't spend a kitten ton of money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of all the ridiculous kitten spouted on the forums over the past 4 days, this statement ranks. > > > > Congrats > > > > > > > @"kharmin.7683" said: > > > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > > > Yeah I get that but we are already at a place where the game is unplayable if you don't spend a kitten ton of money. > > > > > > > > > You must be playing a different game. How can you say that GW2 is unplayable when the only real money one needs to spend is for convenience items, and even then those items can easily be obtained through gold -> gem conversion? > > > > > > > > > > Ok plebs tell me how enjoyable it is to start gw2 now with buying pof and dont spend any gems on 1 bag space, 2 char slots 3, shared inventory slots, 4 bank spaces, 5 material storage, 6 living world chapters. > > > For someone who played the game for 7 years and spend some gems over the years or just used the time grinding it out its fine but for new players? no way. > > > > New players get a TON of content for 20-25 bucks (if not on sale, which makes it cheaper) with no subscription fee. Show me any other MMORPG on the market which does the same. > > > > If a new player applied a basic subscription approach of 10-20 bucks per month, they'd have all the convenience items they need within half a year. After which they could again go back to not spending a single dollar/Euro/etc on the game. > > Or you tie such convenience in having the sub active. Sounds like a bad deal for the customer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > Trust me, you don't want that. Optional subscription games always end up crippling their base functionality in order to push players towards the subscrition. > > > > > > > > > > Full, obligatory subscription is practically always a better choice than an optional one. Asking for that is just asking for a system that mixes the worst parts of both cashshop and subscription systems together. > > > > > > > > Yeah I get that but we are already at a place where the game is unplayable if you don't spend a kitten ton of money. > > > > > > > > > > Of all the ridiculous kitten spouted on the forums over the past 4 days, this statement ranks. > > > Congrats > > > > > @"kharmin.7683" said: > > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > > Yeah I get that but we are already at a place where the game is unplayable if you don't spend a kitten ton of money. > > > > > > > You must be playing a different game. How can you say that GW2 is unplayable when the only real money one needs to spend is for convenience items, and even then those items can easily be obtained through gold -> gem conversion? > > > > > > > Ok plebs tell me how enjoyable it is to start gw2 now with buying pof and dont spend any gems on 1 bag space, 2 char slots 3, shared inventory slots, 4 bank spaces, 5 material storage, 6 living world chapters. > > For someone who played the game for 7 years and spend some gems over the years or just used the time grinding it out its fine but for new players? no way. > > Your list of "must haves" is absolutely hyperbolic. I'm 3.5 years in and have never seen a need for additional bag slots,I've never once purchased a Shared Inventory Slot, and most players I know get along just fine with only 1 or two material storage expansions. Many players I know don't play more than a couple alts. > The LW stuff is absolutely optional. Other than the story LW2 is only good for mastery points, LW3's only real use is ascended trinkets and LW4's only use are two completely optional mounts. > > A player could absolutely drop 40-50 bucks on this game for the expansion and a couple of convenience upgrades like a couple of bank tabs, and a storage expander and do just fine for many many months. > Compare this to BDO's barrier for entry, ESO's DLC+"optional" sub model or FF14's Boxed expansion+monthly sub cost and you would have on crack to claim this game's price for new players is high in any way compared to other games in the genre. If you want to play the post 80 content the proce is higher tho. In ff14 i can just buy shb the base game and a sub and get acess to all the content, in ESO i can buy the latest chapter the base game and a sub and get acess to all the content, in wow i can just buy BFA i think and a sub and get acess to all the content. In gw2 i have to buy the expansion and then go and buy all the lw updates to get the entirety of the post 80 content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > Trust me, you don't want that. Optional subscription games always end up crippling their base functionality in order to push players towards the subscrition. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Full, obligatory subscription is practically always a better choice than an optional one. Asking for that is just asking for a system that mixes the worst parts of both cashshop and subscription systems together. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah I get that but we are already at a place where the game is unplayable if you don't spend a kitten ton of money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of all the ridiculous kitten spouted on the forums over the past 4 days, this statement ranks. > > > > > Congrats > > > > > > > > > @"kharmin.7683" said: > > > > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > > > > Yeah I get that but we are already at a place where the game is unplayable if you don't spend a kitten ton of money. > > > > > > > > > > > You must be playing a different game. How can you say that GW2 is unplayable when the only real money one needs to spend is for convenience items, and even then those items can easily be obtained through gold -> gem conversion? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok plebs tell me how enjoyable it is to start gw2 now with buying pof and dont spend any gems on 1 bag space, 2 char slots 3, shared inventory slots, 4 bank spaces, 5 material storage, 6 living world chapters. > > > > For someone who played the game for 7 years and spend some gems over the years or just used the time grinding it out its fine but for new players? no way. > > > > > > New players get a TON of content for 20-25 bucks (if not on sale, which makes it cheaper) with no subscription fee. Show me any other MMORPG on the market which does the same. > > > > > > If a new player applied a basic subscription approach of 10-20 bucks per month, they'd have all the convenience items they need within half a year. After which they could again go back to not spending a single dollar/Euro/etc on the game. > > > > Or you tie such convenience in having the sub active. > > Sounds like a bad deal for the customer. Depends how the system works. Eso has this while also giving you premium currency each month so u can keep paying a sub for acess to all the dlc or pay for some months do everything then drop it and use the currency to buy what you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindcircus.1506 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > Trust me, you don't want that. Optional subscription games always end up crippling their base functionality in order to push players towards the subscrition. > > > > > > > > > > > > Full, obligatory subscription is practically always a better choice than an optional one. Asking for that is just asking for a system that mixes the worst parts of both cashshop and subscription systems together. > > > > > > > > > > Yeah I get that but we are already at a place where the game is unplayable if you don't spend a kitten ton of money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of all the ridiculous kitten spouted on the forums over the past 4 days, this statement ranks. > > > > Congrats > > > > > > > @"kharmin.7683" said: > > > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > > > Yeah I get that but we are already at a place where the game is unplayable if you don't spend a kitten ton of money. > > > > > > > > > You must be playing a different game. How can you say that GW2 is unplayable when the only real money one needs to spend is for convenience items, and even then those items can easily be obtained through gold -> gem conversion? > > > > > > > > > > Ok plebs tell me how enjoyable it is to start gw2 now with buying pof and dont spend any gems on 1 bag space, 2 char slots 3, shared inventory slots, 4 bank spaces, 5 material storage, 6 living world chapters. > > > For someone who played the game for 7 years and spend some gems over the years or just used the time grinding it out its fine but for new players? no way. > > > > Your list of "must haves" is absolutely hyperbolic. I'm 3.5 years in and have never seen a need for additional bag slots,I've never once purchased a Shared Inventory Slot, and most players I know get along just fine with only 1 or two material storage expansions. Many players I know don't play more than a couple alts. > > The LW stuff is absolutely optional. Other than the story LW2 is only good for mastery points, LW3's only real use is ascended trinkets and LW4's only use are two completely optional mounts. > > > > A player could absolutely drop 40-50 bucks on this game for the expansion and a couple of convenience upgrades like a couple of bank tabs, and a storage expander and do just fine for many many months. > > Compare this to BDO's barrier for entry, ESO's DLC+"optional" sub model or FF14's Boxed expansion+monthly sub cost and you would have on crack to claim this game's price for new players is high in any way compared to other games in the genre. > > If you want to play the post 80 content the proce is higher tho. In ff14 i can just buy shb the base game and a sub and get acess to all the content, in ESO i can buy the latest chapter the base game and a sub and get acess to all the content, in wow i can just buy BFA i think and a sub and get acess to all the content. > > In gw2 i have to buy the expansion and then go and buy all the lw updates to get the entirety of the post 80 content. FF14 and WoW's expansions are twice the price of the PoF. An LW season is less than the price of a single monthly sub. In GW2s model not only is the content cheaper, but I can have it whenever I log in not just if I log in while I am paying 15 bucks a month. Your logic is myopic and skewed to make a point. It ignores the price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilyanna.9361 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > Trust me, you don't want that. Optional subscription games always end up crippling their base functionality in order to push players towards the subscrition. > > > > > > > > > > > > Full, obligatory subscription is practically always a better choice than an optional one. Asking for that is just asking for a system that mixes the worst parts of both cashshop and subscription systems together. > > > > > > > > > > Yeah I get that but we are already at a place where the game is unplayable if you don't spend a kitten ton of money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of all the ridiculous kitten spouted on the forums over the past 4 days, this statement ranks. > > > > Congrats > > > > > > > @"kharmin.7683" said: > > > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > > > Yeah I get that but we are already at a place where the game is unplayable if you don't spend a kitten ton of money. > > > > > > > > > You must be playing a different game. How can you say that GW2 is unplayable when the only real money one needs to spend is for convenience items, and even then those items can easily be obtained through gold -> gem conversion? > > > > > > > > > > Ok plebs tell me how enjoyable it is to start gw2 now with buying pof and dont spend any gems on 1 bag space, 2 char slots 3, shared inventory slots, 4 bank spaces, 5 material storage, 6 living world chapters. > > > For someone who played the game for 7 years and spend some gems over the years or just used the time grinding it out its fine but for new players? no way. > > > > Your list of "must haves" is absolutely hyperbolic. I'm 3.5 years in and have never seen a need for additional bag slots,I've never once purchased a Shared Inventory Slot, and most players I know get along just fine with only 1 or two material storage expansions. Many players I know don't play more than a couple alts. > > The LW stuff is absolutely optional. Other than the story LW2 is only good for mastery points, LW3's only real use is ascended trinkets and LW4's only use are two completely optional mounts. > > > > A player could absolutely drop 40-50 bucks on this game for the expansion and a couple of convenience upgrades like a couple of bank tabs, and a storage expander and do just fine for many many months. > > Compare this to BDO's barrier for entry, ESO's DLC+"optional" sub model or FF14's Boxed expansion+monthly sub cost and you would have on crack to claim this game's price for new players is high in any way compared to other games in the genre. > > If you want to play the post 80 content the proce is higher tho. In ff14 i can just buy shb the base game and a sub and get acess to all the content, in ESO i can buy the latest chapter the base game and a sub and get acess to all the content, in wow i can just buy BFA i think and a sub and get acess to all the content. > > In gw2 i have to buy the expansion and then go and buy all the lw updates to get the entirety of the post 80 content. But then you are ignoring the additional costs those other games throw at you. Aka, the things you need to be 'optimal'. So, the other games still end up more expensive no matter how you look at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thornwolf.9721 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 Im already miffed about build templates, which as a core of the series before guild wars 2. A subscription for QoL/Utility would push me further away from the game as its what pushed me away from ESO. I could see it now "Legendary crafting must be purchased on the gem store, unless you own the subscription." Or them removing any of the other utility purchases to push the sub. No thank you, Im 100% good and you can keep it. Don't give advantages to people because they are willing to pitch money at the screen, the fact that they sell the upgrades serperatly means that you can get what you want and what you need IF AND WHEN YOU WANT IT. But its not a necessity Im already having the nightmare of them charging entry fees to the WvW alliance system and Swiss once they are done. And charging for Everything else in the game as they break the game apart and sell each part individually just like ESO. If this happens you will only see the population dwindle further, you will see the community wither and because everything is account-bound now you cant have someone make you armor unlike in ESO where I can play and gather the needed mats, and have someone who dared to pay the sub and thus have the room to make the crafting easier on them I can't do that here. (I have max of all the crafters in the game, thats not the issue. Its just and example for new players, or players who haven't.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braile.3894 Posted October 2, 2019 Author Share Posted October 2, 2019 OK alot of people here seems to never needed to spend gems or buy a bag slot, fine. I think you people probably will be fine with the build templates as they are announced. So why are so shouting no for an OPTIONAL sub so people like me who need more build template space and other spaces if it won't change your gameplay at all? Stating once again only in a perfect world where anet won't fuck over their customers and change current stuff to make it worse without a sub. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > Trust me, you don't want that. Optional subscription games always end up crippling their base functionality in order to push players towards the subscrition. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Full, obligatory subscription is practically always a better choice than an optional one. Asking for that is just asking for a system that mixes the worst parts of both cashshop and subscription systems together. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah I get that but we are already at a place where the game is unplayable if you don't spend a kitten ton of money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of all the ridiculous kitten spouted on the forums over the past 4 days, this statement ranks. > > > > > Congrats > > > > > > > > > @"kharmin.7683" said: > > > > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > > > > Yeah I get that but we are already at a place where the game is unplayable if you don't spend a kitten ton of money. > > > > > > > > > > > You must be playing a different game. How can you say that GW2 is unplayable when the only real money one needs to spend is for convenience items, and even then those items can easily be obtained through gold -> gem conversion? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok plebs tell me how enjoyable it is to start gw2 now with buying pof and dont spend any gems on 1 bag space, 2 char slots 3, shared inventory slots, 4 bank spaces, 5 material storage, 6 living world chapters. > > > > For someone who played the game for 7 years and spend some gems over the years or just used the time grinding it out its fine but for new players? no way. > > > > > > Your list of "must haves" is absolutely hyperbolic. I'm 3.5 years in and have never seen a need for additional bag slots,I've never once purchased a Shared Inventory Slot, and most players I know get along just fine with only 1 or two material storage expansions. Many players I know don't play more than a couple alts. > > > The LW stuff is absolutely optional. Other than the story LW2 is only good for mastery points, LW3's only real use is ascended trinkets and LW4's only use are two completely optional mounts. > > > > > > A player could absolutely drop 40-50 bucks on this game for the expansion and a couple of convenience upgrades like a couple of bank tabs, and a storage expander and do just fine for many many months. > > > Compare this to BDO's barrier for entry, ESO's DLC+"optional" sub model or FF14's Boxed expansion+monthly sub cost and you would have on crack to claim this game's price for new players is high in any way compared to other games in the genre. > > > > If you want to play the post 80 content the proce is higher tho. In ff14 i can just buy shb the base game and a sub and get acess to all the content, in ESO i can buy the latest chapter the base game and a sub and get acess to all the content, in wow i can just buy BFA i think and a sub and get acess to all the content. > > > > In gw2 i have to buy the expansion and then go and buy all the lw updates to get the entirety of the post 80 content. > > But then you are ignoring the additional costs those other games throw at you. Aka, the things you need to be 'optimal'. So, the other games still end up more expensive no matter how you look at it. Like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thornwolf.9721 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 > @"Braile.3894" said: > OK alot of people here seems to never needed to spend gems or buy a bag slot, fine. > I think you people probably will be fine with the build templates as they are announced. So why are so shouting no for an OPTIONAL sub so people like me who need more build template space and other spaces if it won't change your gameplay at all? > > Stating once again only in a perfect world where anet won't kitten over their customers and change current stuff to make it worse without a sub. Because it directly effects us, and yes I've upgraded my bank to the max it can be when it comes to mats. I have bought a bunch of bank space, bag space tabs and so on. So no I've dropped money on the game as it is but I don't see why a Sub would be worth anything. Unless they start dolling our fees for other things such as fractals, raids, wvw, pvp just like ESO does. I don't want them to break the game apart as pieces to sell like ESO for the sake of a sub, thats just ludicrous and stupid in of itself and would completely push away the core of the fan-base for this entry. It also would be a spit in the face of those of us who already bought the junk, because we already have it and gain absolutely nothing for it. So no, people like you can whine about it all you want but Im going to put my foot down. We don't need it we can already purchase what we want and Im tired as is of them bundling everything so you either pay the 30$+ For things you might never use just because you want one item. Which is why I don't buy things as much as I used too because they've bundled for example a mount skin Id like in with a ton of others or locked them behind loot-boxes. Sell me the product I want and Ill buy it, try to add on a bunch of stuff I don't care about then I Won't. Simple as that, as sad as it is what you are proposing might harm this game far more than help it because the population of the servers has already withered substantially since the announcement on the 30th of august. We need to stand out from our competition, not become it. At the point they add a sub then why play, the balance issues and the problems with WvW, Fractals and raids don't exist in ESO. And it is a similar game with the very feature you're asking for, we would be directly competing with a game that has a stronger fan-base and already is the game your asking GW2 to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilyanna.9361 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > > > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > Trust me, you don't want that. Optional subscription games always end up crippling their base functionality in order to push players towards the subscrition. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Full, obligatory subscription is practically always a better choice than an optional one. Asking for that is just asking for a system that mixes the worst parts of both cashshop and subscription systems together. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah I get that but we are already at a place where the game is unplayable if you don't spend a kitten ton of money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of all the ridiculous kitten spouted on the forums over the past 4 days, this statement ranks. > > > > > > Congrats > > > > > > > > > > > @"kharmin.7683" said: > > > > > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > > > > > Yeah I get that but we are already at a place where the game is unplayable if you don't spend a kitten ton of money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > You must be playing a different game. How can you say that GW2 is unplayable when the only real money one needs to spend is for convenience items, and even then those items can easily be obtained through gold -> gem conversion? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok plebs tell me how enjoyable it is to start gw2 now with buying pof and dont spend any gems on 1 bag space, 2 char slots 3, shared inventory slots, 4 bank spaces, 5 material storage, 6 living world chapters. > > > > > For someone who played the game for 7 years and spend some gems over the years or just used the time grinding it out its fine but for new players? no way. > > > > > > > > Your list of "must haves" is absolutely hyperbolic. I'm 3.5 years in and have never seen a need for additional bag slots,I've never once purchased a Shared Inventory Slot, and most players I know get along just fine with only 1 or two material storage expansions. Many players I know don't play more than a couple alts. > > > > The LW stuff is absolutely optional. Other than the story LW2 is only good for mastery points, LW3's only real use is ascended trinkets and LW4's only use are two completely optional mounts. > > > > > > > > A player could absolutely drop 40-50 bucks on this game for the expansion and a couple of convenience upgrades like a couple of bank tabs, and a storage expander and do just fine for many many months. > > > > Compare this to BDO's barrier for entry, ESO's DLC+"optional" sub model or FF14's Boxed expansion+monthly sub cost and you would have on crack to claim this game's price for new players is high in any way compared to other games in the genre. > > > > > > If you want to play the post 80 content the proce is higher tho. In ff14 i can just buy shb the base game and a sub and get acess to all the content, in ESO i can buy the latest chapter the base game and a sub and get acess to all the content, in wow i can just buy BFA i think and a sub and get acess to all the content. > > > > > > In gw2 i have to buy the expansion and then go and buy all the lw updates to get the entirety of the post 80 content. > > > > But then you are ignoring the additional costs those other games throw at you. Aka, the things you need to be 'optimal'. So, the other games still end up more expensive no matter how you look at it. > > Like? As someone just said for ESO. Take the cost for crafting. If you are not a crafter now you have to sub and get any additional bag space. Or, here's a better example. BDO, for you to efficiently play the game, need at least SIX, t3 pets. Over 200+ slots via bag space. A t3 fairy. At least two or three different costumes depending on how many alts you have. Value packs (unless you hoard them from the compensation mail) because you are getting taxed HARD for the things you sell. SWTOR has their subs, mounts, costumes, character extras, etc. And many sub games ask more out of you even though they are already getting constant cash from their subbers. So yes, sure, you can say that if you are a spanking brand new player you'll be putting a bit of a dime in gw2 for getting the LWS stuff. But it does not compare at all to any of the sub based games that make you not only pay for a REQUIRED (or 'optional') sub to just play their game, but then also ask for MORE MONEY to feel comfy and satisfied. Like, idk why people think that is fair and healthy when they are squeezing more money out of you at every turn. And yes, BDO does count as part of the MMO line up just like any other MMOs we have available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > Trust me, you don't want that. Optional subscription games always end up crippling their base functionality in order to push players towards the subscrition. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Full, obligatory subscription is practically always a better choice than an optional one. Asking for that is just asking for a system that mixes the worst parts of both cashshop and subscription systems together. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah I get that but we are already at a place where the game is unplayable if you don't spend a kitten ton of money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of all the ridiculous kitten spouted on the forums over the past 4 days, this statement ranks. > > > > > Congrats > > > > > > > > > @"kharmin.7683" said: > > > > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > > > > Yeah I get that but we are already at a place where the game is unplayable if you don't spend a kitten ton of money. > > > > > > > > > > > You must be playing a different game. How can you say that GW2 is unplayable when the only real money one needs to spend is for convenience items, and even then those items can easily be obtained through gold -> gem conversion? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok plebs tell me how enjoyable it is to start gw2 now with buying pof and dont spend any gems on 1 bag space, 2 char slots 3, shared inventory slots, 4 bank spaces, 5 material storage, 6 living world chapters. > > > > For someone who played the game for 7 years and spend some gems over the years or just used the time grinding it out its fine but for new players? no way. > > > > > > Your list of "must haves" is absolutely hyperbolic. I'm 3.5 years in and have never seen a need for additional bag slots,I've never once purchased a Shared Inventory Slot, and most players I know get along just fine with only 1 or two material storage expansions. Many players I know don't play more than a couple alts. > > > The LW stuff is absolutely optional. Other than the story LW2 is only good for mastery points, LW3's only real use is ascended trinkets and LW4's only use are two completely optional mounts. > > > > > > A player could absolutely drop 40-50 bucks on this game for the expansion and a couple of convenience upgrades like a couple of bank tabs, and a storage expander and do just fine for many many months. > > > Compare this to BDO's barrier for entry, ESO's DLC+"optional" sub model or FF14's Boxed expansion+monthly sub cost and you would have on crack to claim this game's price for new players is high in any way compared to other games in the genre. > > > > If you want to play the post 80 content the proce is higher tho. In ff14 i can just buy shb the base game and a sub and get acess to all the content, in ESO i can buy the latest chapter the base game and a sub and get acess to all the content, in wow i can just buy BFA i think and a sub and get acess to all the content. > > > > In gw2 i have to buy the expansion and then go and buy all the lw updates to get the entirety of the post 80 content. > > FF14 and WoW's expansions are twice the price of the PoF. https://eu.shop.battle.net/en-gb/product/world-of-warcraft-battle-for-azeroth https://store.steampowered.com/app/1016870/FINAL_FANTASY_XIV_Shadowbringers/ https://buy.guildwars2.com/store/gw2/en_IE/html/pbPage.pathoffire/themeID.4785548100?_ga=2.244121733.1808702388.1570033276-690502037.1517416460&cid=104:5::::Global:289::: >An LW season is less than the price of a single monthly sub. And we have 3 soon to be 4 season available for purchase. A month of sub in ff14 or wow, 2 months tops is all you need to experience all the content at least once (excluding the endgame repeatable content and all the post expac content udpates) >In GW2s model not only is the content cheaper Its not > but I can have it whenever I log in not just if I log in while I am paying 15 bucks a month. You can have the new content if you log in while it relevant (every 2 to 3 months) which will likely get shorter if the statement anet made comes to pass. Also, u can farm gold in wow and pay your sub /shrug. > Your logic is myopic and skewed to make a point. It ignores the price. > I linked you the price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrigginPaco.4178 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 > @"Braile.3894" said: > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > Trust me, you don't want that. Optional subscription games always end up crippling their base functionality in order to push players towards the subscrition. > > > > > > > > Full, obligatory subscription is practically always a better choice than an optional one. Asking for that is just asking for a system that mixes the worst parts of both cashshop and subscription systems together. > > > > > > Yeah I get that but we are already at a place where the game is unplayable if you don't spend a kitten ton of money. > > > > > > > Of all the ridiculous kitten spouted on the forums over the past 4 days, this statement ranks. > > Congrats > > > @"kharmin.7683" said: > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > Yeah I get that but we are already at a place where the game is unplayable if you don't spend a kitten ton of money. > > > > > You must be playing a different game. How can you say that GW2 is unplayable when the only real money one needs to spend is for convenience items, and even then those items can easily be obtained through gold -> gem conversion? > > > > Ok plebs tell me how enjoyable it is to start gw2 now with buying pof and dont spend any gems on 1 bag space, 2 char slots 3, shared inventory slots, 4 bank spaces, 5 material storage, 6 living world chapters. > For someone who played the game for 7 years and spend some gems over the years or just used the time grinding it out its fine but for new players? no way. I will admit that Guild Wars 2 is not very new player friendly, particularly in the methods that it uses to promote expansion content and the stories that lead up to them. Even though it may not seem like it, there are quite a few things a new player should/needs to buy in order to get the full Guild Wars 2 experience, simply in terms of PVE, not to mention PvP or WvW. While it has been made easier with Path of Fire and Heart of Thorns being rolled together in one comprehensive package - I think a $30 price, each full season still requires about a $10 purchase each. 2, 3, and now 4, together are $30 more. Though it should be mentioned that there's a pretty good deal for the two expansions and that shouldn't be ignored. By-the-way the way "living world seasons" in any other game are typically just post expansion patches which normally come free**. And yes, I'll admit I have at least purchased 2-3 new Bag slots on multiple characters just to be able to take advantage of that extra inventory space. Not to mention I believe 3 or so Bank expansions. However, saying that's the game is unplayable without doing so is a bit of a stretch. Yes, those things necessarily make the game less of a exercise in management and give you more time to enjoy the game itself. It's their game though and I got to play by their rules, in so many words :anguished: /shrug ** the only games I can use to point this out would Final Fantasy XIV and World of Warcraft, although they are subscription-based you don't need to pay any additional amount to unlock those post-expansion stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > > > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > > > > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > Trust me, you don't want that. Optional subscription games always end up crippling their base functionality in order to push players towards the subscrition. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Full, obligatory subscription is practically always a better choice than an optional one. Asking for that is just asking for a system that mixes the worst parts of both cashshop and subscription systems together. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah I get that but we are already at a place where the game is unplayable if you don't spend a kitten ton of money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of all the ridiculous kitten spouted on the forums over the past 4 days, this statement ranks. > > > > > > > Congrats > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"kharmin.7683" said: > > > > > > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > > > > > > Yeah I get that but we are already at a place where the game is unplayable if you don't spend a kitten ton of money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You must be playing a different game. How can you say that GW2 is unplayable when the only real money one needs to spend is for convenience items, and even then those items can easily be obtained through gold -> gem conversion? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok plebs tell me how enjoyable it is to start gw2 now with buying pof and dont spend any gems on 1 bag space, 2 char slots 3, shared inventory slots, 4 bank spaces, 5 material storage, 6 living world chapters. > > > > > > For someone who played the game for 7 years and spend some gems over the years or just used the time grinding it out its fine but for new players? no way. > > > > > > > > > > Your list of "must haves" is absolutely hyperbolic. I'm 3.5 years in and have never seen a need for additional bag slots,I've never once purchased a Shared Inventory Slot, and most players I know get along just fine with only 1 or two material storage expansions. Many players I know don't play more than a couple alts. > > > > > The LW stuff is absolutely optional. Other than the story LW2 is only good for mastery points, LW3's only real use is ascended trinkets and LW4's only use are two completely optional mounts. > > > > > > > > > > A player could absolutely drop 40-50 bucks on this game for the expansion and a couple of convenience upgrades like a couple of bank tabs, and a storage expander and do just fine for many many months. > > > > > Compare this to BDO's barrier for entry, ESO's DLC+"optional" sub model or FF14's Boxed expansion+monthly sub cost and you would have on crack to claim this game's price for new players is high in any way compared to other games in the genre. > > > > > > > > If you want to play the post 80 content the proce is higher tho. In ff14 i can just buy shb the base game and a sub and get acess to all the content, in ESO i can buy the latest chapter the base game and a sub and get acess to all the content, in wow i can just buy BFA i think and a sub and get acess to all the content. > > > > > > > > In gw2 i have to buy the expansion and then go and buy all the lw updates to get the entirety of the post 80 content. > > > > > > But then you are ignoring the additional costs those other games throw at you. Aka, the things you need to be 'optimal'. So, the other games still end up more expensive no matter how you look at it. > > > > Like? > > As someone just said for ESO. Take the cost for crafting. If you are not a crafter now you have to sub and get any additional bag space. Or, here's a better example. > > BDO, for you to efficiently play the game, need at least SIX, t3 pets. Over 200+ slots via bag space. A t3 fairy. At least two or three different costumes depending on how many alts you have. Value packs (unless you hoard them from the compensation mail) because you are getting taxed HARD for the things you sell. > > SWTOR has their subs, mounts, costumes, character extras, etc. > > And many sub games ask more out of you even though they are already getting constant cash from their subbers. > > So yes, sure, you can say that if you are a spanking brand new player you'll be putting a bit of a dime in gw2 for getting the LWS stuff. But it does not compare at all to any of the sub based games that make you not only pay for a REQUIRED (or 'optional') sub to just play their game, but then also ask for MORE MONEY to feel comfy and satisfied. Like, idk why people think that is fair and healthy when they are squeezing more money out of you at every turn. > > And yes, BDO does count as part of the MMO line up just like any other MMOs we have available. In gw2 you dont put money for salvage omatics, bag tabs, bank tabs, bank expanders amd aditional shared slots to put all the must items? Let alone gathering tool, land plots etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 > @"FrigginPaco.4178" said: > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > Trust me, you don't want that. Optional subscription games always end up crippling their base functionality in order to push players towards the subscrition. > > > > > > > > > > Full, obligatory subscription is practically always a better choice than an optional one. Asking for that is just asking for a system that mixes the worst parts of both cashshop and subscription systems together. > > > > > > > > Yeah I get that but we are already at a place where the game is unplayable if you don't spend a kitten ton of money. > > > > > > > > > > Of all the ridiculous kitten spouted on the forums over the past 4 days, this statement ranks. > > > Congrats > > > > > @"kharmin.7683" said: > > > > @"Braile.3894" said: > > > > Yeah I get that but we are already at a place where the game is unplayable if you don't spend a kitten ton of money. > > > > > > > You must be playing a different game. How can you say that GW2 is unplayable when the only real money one needs to spend is for convenience items, and even then those items can easily be obtained through gold -> gem conversion? > > > > > > > Ok plebs tell me how enjoyable it is to start gw2 now with buying pof and dont spend any gems on 1 bag space, 2 char slots 3, shared inventory slots, 4 bank spaces, 5 material storage, 6 living world chapters. > > For someone who played the game for 7 years and spend some gems over the years or just used the time grinding it out its fine but for new players? no way. > > I will admit that Guild Wars 2 is not very new player friendly, particularly in the methods that it uses to promote expansion content and the stories that lead up to them. Even though it may not seem like it, there are quite a few things a new player should/needs to buy in order to get the full Guild Wars 2 experience, simply in terms of PVE, not to mention PvP or WvW. > > While it has been made easier with Path of Fire and Heart of Thorns being rolled together in one comprehensive package - I think a $30 price, each full season still requires about a $10 purchase each. 2, 3, and now 4, together are $30 more. Though it should be mentioned that there's a pretty good deal for the two expansions and that shouldn't be ignored. By-the-way the way "living world seasons" in any other game are typically just post expansion patches which normally come free**. > > And yes, I'll admit I have at least purchased 2-3 new Bag slots on multiple characters just to be able to take advantage of that extra inventory space. Not to mention I believe 3 or so Bank expansions. However, saying that's the game is unplayable without doing so is a bit of a stretch. Yes, those things necessarily make the game less of a exercise in management and give you more time to enjoy the game itself. It's their game though and I got to play by their rules, in so many words :anguished: /shrug > > ** the only games I can use to point this out would Final Fantasy XIV and World of Warcraft, although they are subscription-based you don't need to pay any additional amount to unlock those post-expansion stories. You gotta admit the money making process in metas or fractals is very annoyijg eithout that aditional bag space or salvageomatics. The game was tons more enjoyable for me when i unlocked my bag tabs, bought bags and a copper salvage omatic to do my hot meta runs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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