Potential Future Balance Changes - WvW

[Setzer.2519]

I've only ever played Scourge, I don't care about "WHATABOUTISM" for other classes as I agree they need buffs/nerfs depending too but here's how I see the progress of Scourges for WvW only.

 

They make Condi's useless in WvW limiting us to power builds...fine.

Not just power builds, must be glass cannon or the dmg isn't enough to do anything...fine.

Not just glass cannon, must use Well of Suffering, Well of Corruption and Trail of Anguish...fine.

Not just 2x well & ToA, must trait Sand Savant, Death Perception and Lingering Curse limiting any choice...fine.

They change how Shade skills work forcing Zerg play/even more dependency on support...fine.

You nerf our boonstrip, then you nerf our boonstrip more and now you want to nerf our boonstrip more...not fine but...fine.

 

So in essence:

We can't 1v1 any class at all - AoE's easy to dodge, dies in 1 hit

We can't roam/small scale (5v5) as we are first target, easiest target, liability

We can't self cleanse anymore since Shade skills forced us to do dmg on enemy or barrier/cleanse self...couple dodges and we are on cooldown for 30s doing nothing.

We can't do anything against stealth since our weapons (sceptor/dagger/ axe/focus) almost all skills require target or again easy to dodge AoE.

Our elite skills are still 100% useless unless pugs walk into them and afk

Our boon strip getting nerfed again...despite Rev/FB/Mes/SB auto-renew boons

Our zerg play burst is once every 30s then we have to nut-hug our healers...if we're lucky enough to have healers...couple immob delays and we're fodder trying to catch up to ball.

 

Are we great in zerg play once every 30 seconds --IF-- our team is better than enemy team...yes we are. But that's all we have! Two steps outside the zerg we are fodder for everything. (Also there's about 67 million rangers for some reason just dying to see a Scourge 1" behind their zerg)

 

At the very least if you plan to nerf us more give us twice as fast cooldown on Sand Shades. Let use re-position it more frequently because we're just converting Scourges to Hammer Rev's if you eliminate the one style of gameplay we are effective at if the enemy doesn't have better support forcing huge spike delays creating the whole "pirate-ship meta" since we need to run away and wait for cooldowns before another engagement.

 

Side Rant: Also what was the point of 15s Sand Shades...seriously. Do you think the enemies stand in the same spot for 15 seconds. It literally forces us to stand in the same spot for 15s for any small scale stuff since we can't barrier/cleanse ourselves the second we cast it once.

 

[phreeak.1023]

Yeah let's nerf scourge boon corruption even more but not the insane boonshare of the opposite. Makes sense....

[Avernus.6817]

What about firebrand, it literally does everything, heals, blocks and offensive/defensive boons for everyone ,tanks , it can also dps at the same time. Firebrand needs even bigger changes than what chrono got, firebrand needs gutting. Not only in pvp/wvw but pve aswell

[God.2708]

> @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> > @"God.2708" said:

> > > @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> > > > @"God.2708" said:

> > > > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > @"Mordayn.6198" said:

> > > > > > I posted this info in the other balance thread but I'm going to repost it here as it applies to the upcoming change. The main issue with scourge isn't just a problem with the scourge. It's a problem with the 3 class combo meta that is dominating because of the interaction between boon, boon corrupt, conditions and condition conversion.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Let's take a look at boon output, condition output and conversion interplay issues that are plaguing wvw. When the chrono nerf to boon output came a few months back it was mentioned that the goal was to limit the output of boons any specific class could generate to allow other classes a place in the boon meta. This was done to chrono but other classes were left in broken OP states.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Firebrand is the main offender at the moment because they generate group Aegis, Might, Protection, Quickness, Regen, Retaliation, Stability, Swiftness, and Vigor. The initial statement on boons when chrono was nerfed was that boon output for individual classes was going to be toned down but this class was never addressed. The main problem with this class having so much access to boons is (like the old chrono) it squeezes out room for any other boon generating supports because it does it better than anything else can.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Support scrapper has a part in this as well due to Purity of Purpose trait. With this one trait every cleansed condition is converted to a boon. This gives scrapper access to all boons output for their subgroup dependent on what the incoming conditions are. Converting a cleansed condition to a boon is way too overpowered when in a large scale wvw setting.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Scourge adds to the Support scrapper issue because it converts boons to conditions as well as outputting a ton of aoe conditions. So you have the interaction of Firebrand putting boons on the group initially. Then Scourge corrupts those boons to conditions while also outputting additional conditions. Then you have support scrapper converting all those conditions into boons again.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The dynamic from these 3 classes has made them overpowered to the point in the boons/condi/conversion meta that if you don't run this comp you lose the fight before it started. Group comp for any kind of organized group is mandatory these 3 classes and the last 2 spots in the 5 man are usually an additional scourge, herald dps, warrior or weaver dps.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No 3 classes should dominate the meta like this. They need to be brought down for other build options to be considered viable. This means limiting what boons are able to be output by these classes. Firebrand needs a rework that limits the boons they are able to output that makes them comparable to other support options. IMO Aegis, Protection, Regen, Retaliation, Stability, Vigor and Swiftness is all they should be able to output making them a thematically defensive oriented boons generator and allowing room for more offensive boon generators of Might, and quickness.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > As for the Scrapper and Scourge part in this. Instead of converting boons to specific conditions and conditions to specific boons they should generate a limited list of boons/conditions randomly. This change would limit the boon/condition/conversion meta to specific conditions and specific boon generation. I'm not sure which conditions/boons specifically should be used in this conversion chart but thematically it would make sense for scourge to be converting boons into non damaging conditions like weakness, vulnerability, slow etc. As for the Scrapper side of this. Since the condition spam generated by this interaction would be brought down by the change to firebrand boons output and scourge condition output it wouldn't be as bad. For balance these need to be looked at and limited to bring them in line with other support classes.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > In the end though it's the Guardian/Firebrand that's the main issue. Neither the scrapper or scourge survive without the Firebrand, and the Guardian itself pretty much stops Rangers, Thieves, Ele's, and Dragonhunters from even stepping into a group either due to reflect or retaliation. In fact, knee-capping the guardian would have to force more warriors into the front line to soak damage. The single and sole issue behind the stale meta is the Guardian. Remove them (what I mean by this is nerf them down to the level of other classes by giving them only 1-2 things to do well), and suddenly game changes on a mass level.

> > > >

> > > > Wrong. Nerfing firebrand results in more firebrands.

> > >

> > > Not if you nerf everything except stability and make them not give out almost every boon in the game. After that, they can also give more stability to another profession to really hit the final nail in the coffin. There are solutions, but there has been no will to stop the firebrand dominance so far.

> >

> > And so you have achieved... nothing. Not diversity, not achieving an increase in TTK, or making larger fights more interesting. Just breaking FB because it exists.

>

> Did you completely skip the entire post you quoted before? FB is responsible for quite a few professions and specs not being good in zergs. It's way better than other supports, so it makes those redundant. It spams reflects and retal, which serve as a major restriction to what damage specs you can bring.

 

That isn't how large scale fights work. The removal of retal and reflection won't make anything more common in large scale fights. In fact it'd probably produce the opposite. Large scale fights would cease to exist because everyone would quit the game.

 

> @"subversiontwo.7501" said:

> The amount of people here complaining about things that provide mobility or survivability is jaw-dropping when we have had 2 years or more of an all-time low of time-to-kill and and all-time high of crowd-control. It's like they don't want to balance out the game and just keep going in a boring meta that locks every melee build out of inclusion. Those stupid comments really seethes me. If anything, the game needs more stability and protection deeming by how most content plays out at the moment. It is nowhere near as prevalent as the might and fury that seems to be leaking out of everything these days because PvE is balanced around a 100% uptime of them.

>

> As far as the topic of the thread goes. Any change is probably a good change at this point but alot of things have been done to beat around the bush of the issue that I fear that alot of new imbalances have been created for when the big pink elephant has been properly adressed. I've never understood why they couldn't just drop the range of the Shades down to 600 so the reach of them stayed at 900. That was always the real problem and never the damage or the ability to project them in two places at once. The real issue has always been that Shades project to 1200 (despite supposedly being a 900-ability) and that no one can produce any other form of damage without the risk of getting stuck in a shade-bomb that rip-cc-damages you at once. I don't mind Shades being strong, they should just never have been the all-purpose solution. They were supposed to be mid-range.

 

I do think that would produce an interesting meta in terms of glass high range vs scourge. But wouldn't that still prevent basically any form of melee from happening? Or are you speaking in conjunction with the target cap reduction? Actually that might open up a rock paper scissors dynamic of melee beats glass range beats scourge beats melee... hmm.

[Avernus.6817]

> @"God.2708" said:

> > @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> > > @"God.2708" said:

> > > > @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> > > > > @"God.2708" said:

> > > > > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > @"Mordayn.6198" said:

> > > > > > > I posted this info in the other balance thread but I'm going to repost it here as it applies to the upcoming change. The main issue with scourge isn't just a problem with the scourge. It's a problem with the 3 class combo meta that is dominating because of the interaction between boon, boon corrupt, conditions and condition conversion.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Let's take a look at boon output, condition output and conversion interplay issues that are plaguing wvw. When the chrono nerf to boon output came a few months back it was mentioned that the goal was to limit the output of boons any specific class could generate to allow other classes a place in the boon meta. This was done to chrono but other classes were left in broken OP states.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Firebrand is the main offender at the moment because they generate group Aegis, Might, Protection, Quickness, Regen, Retaliation, Stability, Swiftness, and Vigor. The initial statement on boons when chrono was nerfed was that boon output for individual classes was going to be toned down but this class was never addressed. The main problem with this class having so much access to boons is (like the old chrono) it squeezes out room for any other boon generating supports because it does it better than anything else can.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Support scrapper has a part in this as well due to Purity of Purpose trait. With this one trait every cleansed condition is converted to a boon. This gives scrapper access to all boons output for their subgroup dependent on what the incoming conditions are. Converting a cleansed condition to a boon is way too overpowered when in a large scale wvw setting.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Scourge adds to the Support scrapper issue because it converts boons to conditions as well as outputting a ton of aoe conditions. So you have the interaction of Firebrand putting boons on the group initially. Then Scourge corrupts those boons to conditions while also outputting additional conditions. Then you have support scrapper converting all those conditions into boons again.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The dynamic from these 3 classes has made them overpowered to the point in the boons/condi/conversion meta that if you don't run this comp you lose the fight before it started. Group comp for any kind of organized group is mandatory these 3 classes and the last 2 spots in the 5 man are usually an additional scourge, herald dps, warrior or weaver dps.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > No 3 classes should dominate the meta like this. They need to be brought down for other build options to be considered viable. This means limiting what boons are able to be output by these classes. Firebrand needs a rework that limits the boons they are able to output that makes them comparable to other support options. IMO Aegis, Protection, Regen, Retaliation, Stability, Vigor and Swiftness is all they should be able to output making them a thematically defensive oriented boons generator and allowing room for more offensive boon generators of Might, and quickness.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > As for the Scrapper and Scourge part in this. Instead of converting boons to specific conditions and conditions to specific boons they should generate a limited list of boons/conditions randomly. This change would limit the boon/condition/conversion meta to specific conditions and specific boon generation. I'm not sure which conditions/boons specifically should be used in this conversion chart but thematically it would make sense for scourge to be converting boons into non damaging conditions like weakness, vulnerability, slow etc. As for the Scrapper side of this. Since the condition spam generated by this interaction would be brought down by the change to firebrand boons output and scourge condition output it wouldn't be as bad. For balance these need to be looked at and limited to bring them in line with other support classes.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In the end though it's the Guardian/Firebrand that's the main issue. Neither the scrapper or scourge survive without the Firebrand, and the Guardian itself pretty much stops Rangers, Thieves, Ele's, and Dragonhunters from even stepping into a group either due to reflect or retaliation. In fact, knee-capping the guardian would have to force more warriors into the front line to soak damage. The single and sole issue behind the stale meta is the Guardian. Remove them (what I mean by this is nerf them down to the level of other classes by giving them only 1-2 things to do well), and suddenly game changes on a mass level.

> > > > >

> > > > > Wrong. Nerfing firebrand results in more firebrands.

> > > >

> > > > Not if you nerf everything except stability and make them not give out almost every boon in the game. After that, they can also give more stability to another profession to really hit the final nail in the coffin. There are solutions, but there has been no will to stop the firebrand dominance so far.

> > >

> > > And so you have achieved... nothing. Not diversity, not achieving an increase in TTK, or making larger fights more interesting. Just breaking FB because it exists.

> >

> > Did you completely skip the entire post you quoted before? FB is responsible for quite a few professions and specs not being good in zergs. It's way better than other supports, so it makes those redundant. It spams reflects and retal, which serve as a major restriction to what damage specs you can bring.

>

> That isn't how large scale fights work. The removal of retal and reflection won't make anything more common in large scale fights. In fact it'd probably produce the opposite. Large scale fights would cease to exist because everyone would quit the game.

 

First of all, everyone wouldn't quit if they heavy nerfed firebrand, sure there would be alot of tears but everyone else will be happy about it.

No one is suggesting reduced durations on stuff which you'd be right, more firebrands would be needed. People want thigns entirely removed from FB, they shouldn't do as much as they can.

FB is powercreep gone mad, they need to be balanced with the other classes/specs

[L A T I O N.8923]

> @"Avernus.6817" said:

> > @"God.2708" said:

> > > @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> > > > @"God.2708" said:

> > > > > @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> > > > > > @"God.2708" said:

> > > > > > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > @"Mordayn.6198" said:

> > > > > > > > I posted this info in the other balance thread but I'm going to repost it here as it applies to the upcoming change. The main issue with scourge isn't just a problem with the scourge. It's a problem with the 3 class combo meta that is dominating because of the interaction between boon, boon corrupt, conditions and condition conversion.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Let's take a look at boon output, condition output and conversion interplay issues that are plaguing wvw. When the chrono nerf to boon output came a few months back it was mentioned that the goal was to limit the output of boons any specific class could generate to allow other classes a place in the boon meta. This was done to chrono but other classes were left in broken OP states.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Firebrand is the main offender at the moment because they generate group Aegis, Might, Protection, Quickness, Regen, Retaliation, Stability, Swiftness, and Vigor. The initial statement on boons when chrono was nerfed was that boon output for individual classes was going to be toned down but this class was never addressed. The main problem with this class having so much access to boons is (like the old chrono) it squeezes out room for any other boon generating supports because it does it better than anything else can.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Support scrapper has a part in this as well due to Purity of Purpose trait. With this one trait every cleansed condition is converted to a boon. This gives scrapper access to all boons output for their subgroup dependent on what the incoming conditions are. Converting a cleansed condition to a boon is way too overpowered when in a large scale wvw setting.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Scourge adds to the Support scrapper issue because it converts boons to conditions as well as outputting a ton of aoe conditions. So you have the interaction of Firebrand putting boons on the group initially. Then Scourge corrupts those boons to conditions while also outputting additional conditions. Then you have support scrapper converting all those conditions into boons again.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The dynamic from these 3 classes has made them overpowered to the point in the boons/condi/conversion meta that if you don't run this comp you lose the fight before it started. Group comp for any kind of organized group is mandatory these 3 classes and the last 2 spots in the 5 man are usually an additional scourge, herald dps, warrior or weaver dps.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > No 3 classes should dominate the meta like this. They need to be brought down for other build options to be considered viable. This means limiting what boons are able to be output by these classes. Firebrand needs a rework that limits the boons they are able to output that makes them comparable to other support options. IMO Aegis, Protection, Regen, Retaliation, Stability, Vigor and Swiftness is all they should be able to output making them a thematically defensive oriented boons generator and allowing room for more offensive boon generators of Might, and quickness.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > As for the Scrapper and Scourge part in this. Instead of converting boons to specific conditions and conditions to specific boons they should generate a limited list of boons/conditions randomly. This change would limit the boon/condition/conversion meta to specific conditions and specific boon generation. I'm not sure which conditions/boons specifically should be used in this conversion chart but thematically it would make sense for scourge to be converting boons into non damaging conditions like weakness, vulnerability, slow etc. As for the Scrapper side of this. Since the condition spam generated by this interaction would be brought down by the change to firebrand boons output and scourge condition output it wouldn't be as bad. For balance these need to be looked at and limited to bring them in line with other support classes.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > In the end though it's the Guardian/Firebrand that's the main issue. Neither the scrapper or scourge survive without the Firebrand, and the Guardian itself pretty much stops Rangers, Thieves, Ele's, and Dragonhunters from even stepping into a group either due to reflect or retaliation. In fact, knee-capping the guardian would have to force more warriors into the front line to soak damage. The single and sole issue behind the stale meta is the Guardian. Remove them (what I mean by this is nerf them down to the level of other classes by giving them only 1-2 things to do well), and suddenly game changes on a mass level.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Wrong. Nerfing firebrand results in more firebrands.

> > > > >

> > > > > Not if you nerf everything except stability and make them not give out almost every boon in the game. After that, they can also give more stability to another profession to really hit the final nail in the coffin. There are solutions, but there has been no will to stop the firebrand dominance so far.

> > > >

> > > > And so you have achieved... nothing. Not diversity, not achieving an increase in TTK, or making larger fights more interesting. Just breaking FB because it exists.

> > >

> > > Did you completely skip the entire post you quoted before? FB is responsible for quite a few professions and specs not being good in zergs. It's way better than other supports, so it makes those redundant. It spams reflects and retal, which serve as a major restriction to what damage specs you can bring.

> >

> > That isn't how large scale fights work. The removal of retal and reflection won't make anything more common in large scale fights. In fact it'd probably produce the opposite. Large scale fights would cease to exist because everyone would quit the game.

>

> First of all, everyone wouldn't quit if they heavy nerfed firebrand, sure there would be alot of tears but everyone else will be happy about it.

> No one is suggesting reduced durations on stuff which you'd be right, more firebrands would be needed. People want thigns entirely removed from FB, they shouldn't do as much as they can.

> FB is powercreep gone mad, they need to be balanced with the other classes/specs

 

I agree

Tomes need to be a trade off

Not Just a silly extra bar with very low cooldown

[Acheron.4731]

> @"eXruina.4956" said:

> Just to be fair.. I look forward to the rest of this future patch.. ^^

 

Yeah, I was thinking there was gonna be more updates than that.

Cal threw in the towel.

Another one lost to the mist.

 

[God.2708]

> @"Avernus.6817" said:

> > @"God.2708" said:

> > > @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> > > > @"God.2708" said:

> > > > > @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> > > > > > @"God.2708" said:

> > > > > > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > @"Mordayn.6198" said:

> > > > > > > > I posted this info in the other balance thread but I'm going to repost it here as it applies to the upcoming change. The main issue with scourge isn't just a problem with the scourge. It's a problem with the 3 class combo meta that is dominating because of the interaction between boon, boon corrupt, conditions and condition conversion.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Let's take a look at boon output, condition output and conversion interplay issues that are plaguing wvw. When the chrono nerf to boon output came a few months back it was mentioned that the goal was to limit the output of boons any specific class could generate to allow other classes a place in the boon meta. This was done to chrono but other classes were left in broken OP states.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Firebrand is the main offender at the moment because they generate group Aegis, Might, Protection, Quickness, Regen, Retaliation, Stability, Swiftness, and Vigor. The initial statement on boons when chrono was nerfed was that boon output for individual classes was going to be toned down but this class was never addressed. The main problem with this class having so much access to boons is (like the old chrono) it squeezes out room for any other boon generating supports because it does it better than anything else can.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Support scrapper has a part in this as well due to Purity of Purpose trait. With this one trait every cleansed condition is converted to a boon. This gives scrapper access to all boons output for their subgroup dependent on what the incoming conditions are. Converting a cleansed condition to a boon is way too overpowered when in a large scale wvw setting.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Scourge adds to the Support scrapper issue because it converts boons to conditions as well as outputting a ton of aoe conditions. So you have the interaction of Firebrand putting boons on the group initially. Then Scourge corrupts those boons to conditions while also outputting additional conditions. Then you have support scrapper converting all those conditions into boons again.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The dynamic from these 3 classes has made them overpowered to the point in the boons/condi/conversion meta that if you don't run this comp you lose the fight before it started. Group comp for any kind of organized group is mandatory these 3 classes and the last 2 spots in the 5 man are usually an additional scourge, herald dps, warrior or weaver dps.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > No 3 classes should dominate the meta like this. They need to be brought down for other build options to be considered viable. This means limiting what boons are able to be output by these classes. Firebrand needs a rework that limits the boons they are able to output that makes them comparable to other support options. IMO Aegis, Protection, Regen, Retaliation, Stability, Vigor and Swiftness is all they should be able to output making them a thematically defensive oriented boons generator and allowing room for more offensive boon generators of Might, and quickness.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > As for the Scrapper and Scourge part in this. Instead of converting boons to specific conditions and conditions to specific boons they should generate a limited list of boons/conditions randomly. This change would limit the boon/condition/conversion meta to specific conditions and specific boon generation. I'm not sure which conditions/boons specifically should be used in this conversion chart but thematically it would make sense for scourge to be converting boons into non damaging conditions like weakness, vulnerability, slow etc. As for the Scrapper side of this. Since the condition spam generated by this interaction would be brought down by the change to firebrand boons output and scourge condition output it wouldn't be as bad. For balance these need to be looked at and limited to bring them in line with other support classes.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > In the end though it's the Guardian/Firebrand that's the main issue. Neither the scrapper or scourge survive without the Firebrand, and the Guardian itself pretty much stops Rangers, Thieves, Ele's, and Dragonhunters from even stepping into a group either due to reflect or retaliation. In fact, knee-capping the guardian would have to force more warriors into the front line to soak damage. The single and sole issue behind the stale meta is the Guardian. Remove them (what I mean by this is nerf them down to the level of other classes by giving them only 1-2 things to do well), and suddenly game changes on a mass level.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Wrong. Nerfing firebrand results in more firebrands.

> > > > >

> > > > > Not if you nerf everything except stability and make them not give out almost every boon in the game. After that, they can also give more stability to another profession to really hit the final nail in the coffin. There are solutions, but there has been no will to stop the firebrand dominance so far.

> > > >

> > > > And so you have achieved... nothing. Not diversity, not achieving an increase in TTK, or making larger fights more interesting. Just breaking FB because it exists.

> > >

> > > Did you completely skip the entire post you quoted before? FB is responsible for quite a few professions and specs not being good in zergs. It's way better than other supports, so it makes those redundant. It spams reflects and retal, which serve as a major restriction to what damage specs you can bring.

> >

> > That isn't how large scale fights work. The removal of retal and reflection won't make anything more common in large scale fights. In fact it'd probably produce the opposite. Large scale fights would cease to exist because everyone would quit the game.

>

> First of all, everyone wouldn't quit if they heavy nerfed firebrand, sure there would be alot of tears but everyone else will be happy about it.

> No one is suggesting reduced durations on stuff which you'd be right, more firebrands would be needed. People want thigns entirely removed from FB, they shouldn't do as much as they can.

> FB is powercreep gone mad, they need to be balanced with the other classes/specs

 

This might come as a surprise, but the only thing FBs do that other support specs don't is give stab and aegis. If scrappers and tempests gave enough stab to be relevant, which being quite honest firebrand doesn't even do at the moment, then firebrand wouldn't even be played.

[Avernus.6817]

> @"God.2708" said:

> > @"Avernus.6817" said:

> > > @"God.2708" said:

> > > > @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> > > > > @"God.2708" said:

> > > > > > @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> > > > > > > @"God.2708" said:

> > > > > > > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > @"Mordayn.6198" said:

> > > > > > > > > I posted this info in the other balance thread but I'm going to repost it here as it applies to the upcoming change. The main issue with scourge isn't just a problem with the scourge. It's a problem with the 3 class combo meta that is dominating because of the interaction between boon, boon corrupt, conditions and condition conversion.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Let's take a look at boon output, condition output and conversion interplay issues that are plaguing wvw. When the chrono nerf to boon output came a few months back it was mentioned that the goal was to limit the output of boons any specific class could generate to allow other classes a place in the boon meta. This was done to chrono but other classes were left in broken OP states.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Firebrand is the main offender at the moment because they generate group Aegis, Might, Protection, Quickness, Regen, Retaliation, Stability, Swiftness, and Vigor. The initial statement on boons when chrono was nerfed was that boon output for individual classes was going to be toned down but this class was never addressed. The main problem with this class having so much access to boons is (like the old chrono) it squeezes out room for any other boon generating supports because it does it better than anything else can.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Support scrapper has a part in this as well due to Purity of Purpose trait. With this one trait every cleansed condition is converted to a boon. This gives scrapper access to all boons output for their subgroup dependent on what the incoming conditions are. Converting a cleansed condition to a boon is way too overpowered when in a large scale wvw setting.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Scourge adds to the Support scrapper issue because it converts boons to conditions as well as outputting a ton of aoe conditions. So you have the interaction of Firebrand putting boons on the group initially. Then Scourge corrupts those boons to conditions while also outputting additional conditions. Then you have support scrapper converting all those conditions into boons again.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The dynamic from these 3 classes has made them overpowered to the point in the boons/condi/conversion meta that if you don't run this comp you lose the fight before it started. Group comp for any kind of organized group is mandatory these 3 classes and the last 2 spots in the 5 man are usually an additional scourge, herald dps, warrior or weaver dps.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > No 3 classes should dominate the meta like this. They need to be brought down for other build options to be considered viable. This means limiting what boons are able to be output by these classes. Firebrand needs a rework that limits the boons they are able to output that makes them comparable to other support options. IMO Aegis, Protection, Regen, Retaliation, Stability, Vigor and Swiftness is all they should be able to output making them a thematically defensive oriented boons generator and allowing room for more offensive boon generators of Might, and quickness.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > As for the Scrapper and Scourge part in this. Instead of converting boons to specific conditions and conditions to specific boons they should generate a limited list of boons/conditions randomly. This change would limit the boon/condition/conversion meta to specific conditions and specific boon generation. I'm not sure which conditions/boons specifically should be used in this conversion chart but thematically it would make sense for scourge to be converting boons into non damaging conditions like weakness, vulnerability, slow etc. As for the Scrapper side of this. Since the condition spam generated by this interaction would be brought down by the change to firebrand boons output and scourge condition output it wouldn't be as bad. For balance these need to be looked at and limited to bring them in line with other support classes.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > In the end though it's the Guardian/Firebrand that's the main issue. Neither the scrapper or scourge survive without the Firebrand, and the Guardian itself pretty much stops Rangers, Thieves, Ele's, and Dragonhunters from even stepping into a group either due to reflect or retaliation. In fact, knee-capping the guardian would have to force more warriors into the front line to soak damage. The single and sole issue behind the stale meta is the Guardian. Remove them (what I mean by this is nerf them down to the level of other classes by giving them only 1-2 things to do well), and suddenly game changes on a mass level.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Wrong. Nerfing firebrand results in more firebrands.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Not if you nerf everything except stability and make them not give out almost every boon in the game. After that, they can also give more stability to another profession to really hit the final nail in the coffin. There are solutions, but there has been no will to stop the firebrand dominance so far.

> > > > >

> > > > > And so you have achieved... nothing. Not diversity, not achieving an increase in TTK, or making larger fights more interesting. Just breaking FB because it exists.

> > > >

> > > > Did you completely skip the entire post you quoted before? FB is responsible for quite a few professions and specs not being good in zergs. It's way better than other supports, so it makes those redundant. It spams reflects and retal, which serve as a major restriction to what damage specs you can bring.

> > >

> > > That isn't how large scale fights work. The removal of retal and reflection won't make anything more common in large scale fights. In fact it'd probably produce the opposite. Large scale fights would cease to exist because everyone would quit the game.

> >

> > First of all, everyone wouldn't quit if they heavy nerfed firebrand, sure there would be alot of tears but everyone else will be happy about it.

> > No one is suggesting reduced durations on stuff which you'd be right, more firebrands would be needed. People want thigns entirely removed from FB, they shouldn't do as much as they can.

> > FB is powercreep gone mad, they need to be balanced with the other classes/specs

>

> This might come as a surprise, but the only thing FBs do that other support specs don't is give stab and aegis. If scrappers and tempests gave enough stab to be relevant, which being quite honest firebrand doesn't even do at the moment, then firebrand wouldn't even be played.

 

Do you even play this game lol

Fb, does more than just stab/aegis, they can also have a perma reflecting shield, retal plus many other boons while also providing high damage and being tanky and a healer as hell.

Stab is hard coutner to cc and aegis is basically hard counter to everything, these 2 things alone are incerdibly powerful, put with everything else and then compare it to other other supports, no one comes close to matching.

Firebrand would still be played, it just wouldn't be a jack of all trades master of all trades.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

> @"God.2708" said:

> > @"Avernus.6817" said:

> > > @"God.2708" said:

> > > > @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> > > > > @"God.2708" said:

> > > > > > @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> > > > > > > @"God.2708" said:

> > > > > > > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > @"Mordayn.6198" said:

> > > > > > > > > I posted this info in the other balance thread but I'm going to repost it here as it applies to the upcoming change. The main issue with scourge isn't just a problem with the scourge. It's a problem with the 3 class combo meta that is dominating because of the interaction between boon, boon corrupt, conditions and condition conversion.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Let's take a look at boon output, condition output and conversion interplay issues that are plaguing wvw. When the chrono nerf to boon output came a few months back it was mentioned that the goal was to limit the output of boons any specific class could generate to allow other classes a place in the boon meta. This was done to chrono but other classes were left in broken OP states.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Firebrand is the main offender at the moment because they generate group Aegis, Might, Protection, Quickness, Regen, Retaliation, Stability, Swiftness, and Vigor. The initial statement on boons when chrono was nerfed was that boon output for individual classes was going to be toned down but this class was never addressed. The main problem with this class having so much access to boons is (like the old chrono) it squeezes out room for any other boon generating supports because it does it better than anything else can.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Support scrapper has a part in this as well due to Purity of Purpose trait. With this one trait every cleansed condition is converted to a boon. This gives scrapper access to all boons output for their subgroup dependent on what the incoming conditions are. Converting a cleansed condition to a boon is way too overpowered when in a large scale wvw setting.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Scourge adds to the Support scrapper issue because it converts boons to conditions as well as outputting a ton of aoe conditions. So you have the interaction of Firebrand putting boons on the group initially. Then Scourge corrupts those boons to conditions while also outputting additional conditions. Then you have support scrapper converting all those conditions into boons again.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The dynamic from these 3 classes has made them overpowered to the point in the boons/condi/conversion meta that if you don't run this comp you lose the fight before it started. Group comp for any kind of organized group is mandatory these 3 classes and the last 2 spots in the 5 man are usually an additional scourge, herald dps, warrior or weaver dps.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > No 3 classes should dominate the meta like this. They need to be brought down for other build options to be considered viable. This means limiting what boons are able to be output by these classes. Firebrand needs a rework that limits the boons they are able to output that makes them comparable to other support options. IMO Aegis, Protection, Regen, Retaliation, Stability, Vigor and Swiftness is all they should be able to output making them a thematically defensive oriented boons generator and allowing room for more offensive boon generators of Might, and quickness.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > As for the Scrapper and Scourge part in this. Instead of converting boons to specific conditions and conditions to specific boons they should generate a limited list of boons/conditions randomly. This change would limit the boon/condition/conversion meta to specific conditions and specific boon generation. I'm not sure which conditions/boons specifically should be used in this conversion chart but thematically it would make sense for scourge to be converting boons into non damaging conditions like weakness, vulnerability, slow etc. As for the Scrapper side of this. Since the condition spam generated by this interaction would be brought down by the change to firebrand boons output and scourge condition output it wouldn't be as bad. For balance these need to be looked at and limited to bring them in line with other support classes.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > In the end though it's the Guardian/Firebrand that's the main issue. Neither the scrapper or scourge survive without the Firebrand, and the Guardian itself pretty much stops Rangers, Thieves, Ele's, and Dragonhunters from even stepping into a group either due to reflect or retaliation. In fact, knee-capping the guardian would have to force more warriors into the front line to soak damage. The single and sole issue behind the stale meta is the Guardian. Remove them (what I mean by this is nerf them down to the level of other classes by giving them only 1-2 things to do well), and suddenly game changes on a mass level.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Wrong. Nerfing firebrand results in more firebrands.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Not if you nerf everything except stability and make them not give out almost every boon in the game. After that, they can also give more stability to another profession to really hit the final nail in the coffin. There are solutions, but there has been no will to stop the firebrand dominance so far.

> > > > >

> > > > > And so you have achieved... nothing. Not diversity, not achieving an increase in TTK, or making larger fights more interesting. Just breaking FB because it exists.

> > > >

> > > > Did you completely skip the entire post you quoted before? FB is responsible for quite a few professions and specs not being good in zergs. It's way better than other supports, so it makes those redundant. It spams reflects and retal, which serve as a major restriction to what damage specs you can bring.

> > >

> > > That isn't how large scale fights work. The removal of retal and reflection won't make anything more common in large scale fights. In fact it'd probably produce the opposite. Large scale fights would cease to exist because everyone would quit the game.

> >

> > First of all, everyone wouldn't quit if they heavy nerfed firebrand, sure there would be alot of tears but everyone else will be happy about it.

> > No one is suggesting reduced durations on stuff which you'd be right, more firebrands would be needed. People want thigns entirely removed from FB, they shouldn't do as much as they can.

> > FB is powercreep gone mad, they need to be balanced with the other classes/specs

>

> This might come as a surprise, but the only thing FBs do that other support specs don't is give stab and aegis. If scrappers and tempests gave enough stab to be relevant, which being quite honest firebrand doesn't even do at the moment, then firebrand wouldn't even be played.

 

FB do nearly everything. Party stab, party aegis, resistance, retaliation, mass healing, convert conditions to boons (regular skill that acts like an elite), cleans conditions en mass, mass reflect. Not to mention access to invulnerables making them ridiculously tanky. They deal high damage, dole out the strongest condition in the game quite easily, and dump boons hand over fist onto their party. The only thing I think they don't do is corrupt boons, but maybe somebody can correct me on this.

 

[subversiontwo.7501]

I'm getting curious. Do you guys (eg., Avernus, Mordayn and DeadlySynz) have any idea of what different roles the different support classes fill and how they are used in other groups outside of the most common pickup groups? I'm not posing the question as a strawman, I sincerely believe the problem here is with perspective. Most people play pickups in WvW (and there's nothing wrong with that), but those who _only_ play in pickups (who don't raid, roam or play matches with guilds) often draw the wrong conclusions when looking at what pickups are or what they are relative other scales and their subcontent.

 

I mean, I've made this argument before, it often falls on deaf ears but I have to keep making it: Pickup groups and their meta are simplified compositions. That is the nature of the beast. If you command a pickup group you have less control over the people who join it, so when looking to wrest some control over that situation people often lower the bar and make things more simplified. People who play in, lead or form specific groups (ie., guilds) in pickup play are rarely the best groups, the best comps, use the best tactics or whatever else. They adapt to whatever the bar lowers to.

 

Most people have trouble to see that because it would admit that other players are better. That tends to be a tough cookie to swallow. There are still good players and leaders in pickups, that is the key to their popularity in the mode: everybody plays them. However, the good players usually play pickups on the side. It is something they do to relax and have fun. It is not where they are looking to compete.

 

I am mentioning that because it affects how and where the different support classes are used. In pickups you rarely have the luxury of getting to double up, combine or even have access to players who are good at playing the other classes in the support roles (in fact, many players who main those roles elsewhere generally choose not to play them when they join pickups because they want to do something else when they are taking things less serious, if they are commonly locked into a support role with their friends and guilds). However, most of them are regularily used and valued as high as FB in different combinations of support if you look at good groups at different scales when they play as premade groups.

 

The reason that Guardians have always been a staple in pickups is because stability is what you need to nail down first, it is the most basic thing to cover if you are to stand a chance against your opponents. That is also why this entire discussion is only about stability and all those other things you mention are bleak by comparison. In fact, if you start measuring up everything else the other support will start to shine (cleanse amount, heal amount, other specialist aspects of their roles) because stability is not their forte. Aegis, retalition or whatever else you bring up is literally making no one choose to double up on FB in any support pairing, anywhere. Pickups just tend to have issues filling support slots and players are usually not guided towards other support builds as a result. Most pickups usually play with only one support per party and even that is usually sparse.

 

 

[subversiontwo.7501]

Just to make something clear: The issue here isn't what can be done to FB. I, like many others, preferred the oldschool balance without trinity and healers. I would love to see Guardians return to more of such a role again. The issue is rather what will what you are discussing will do to the overarching balance in the game mode? You have to put it in relation to that or you only risk upsetting balance more. It is never worth upsetting the overarching balance over whatever dissatisfaction with the state of- or changes to a class that you prefer to play. If changes to the role of a class can be done while improving the overarching balance (things like TTK and CC for example) then I would be all for it. However, simply axing FB because people are unhappy with Scourges getting a deserved slap would not improve things like TTK, CC and engagement at all ranges, it would make it worse. The same goes for Scourges or other classes. In a world with multiple solutions to problems we may be unhappy with the route they choose to take but it should be glaringly obvious to everyone that we see this change because of more than two years of pirateship metas. What you guys are mentioning about FB here only seems to serve the status quo of the pirateship and that ship has to sail.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

The problem is it basically fills all support rolls when it should only be filling a portion. I don't even see stability as a problem, the problem is they do practically everything better than everybody else. They should not be given access to so many things. The reason we see so many scourges is because of what Firebrands are doing. One firebrand can keep the group healed up, stabbed up, fully booned up, condition free (either due to resistance or constant condition clear/conversion), immune to projectiles (for their group and entire zerg), periodic blocks, all the while dishing out good damage and having invuln's for themselves.

 

What does a Scourge do? Provides lackluster barrier and converts 2-4 boons every few seconds when the Firebrand is spitting out about 5-10 in the same time frame? What else do they do? Provide damage? Not really, can't rely on conditions as they don't reliably tick through (Swagger's video proved that). Physical damage is mostly nullified either due to blocks or protection.

 

There are 7 other classes: Warriors, Rev's, Rangers, Thieves, Mesmers, Scrappers, and Ele's. Let Guardians keep their Stab spam and some mediocre healing at best. Take away their resistance, retaliation, blocks, reflects, condition conversions, condition clears, boon spam, burn spam, and invulnerables. There is no reason why all these roles can't be spread across the other classes (except invulnerables, we already have warrior that spams that, we don't need another class doing it).

 

Put this into perspective.. lets look at the 2 classes that are basically useless when it comes to larger group play; Rangers and thieves. Why can't 2-3 of those things mentioned above be downloaded onto these 2 classes? Why can't say Rangers be the projectile hate class with some means to spread some boons upon their party like swiftness & quickness? Why can't be given some party condition clears and be the boon bots for alacrity and vigor? Now look at the classes that are claimed to have some use but are really being phased out; Ele's and warriors. Make ele's the burn spammers and provide the best healing (because right now it's questionable at best), along with regeneration. Let warriors be the sole users of invulnerables, but let them spread things like retaliation and protection. Let Rev's be the main might and resistance spammers; in fact, no other class should have access to resistance except Rev's. Let the fury and party stealth fall on the mesmer's shoulders. Let the Engie still be the main condition converters (give no other class a means of converting conditions to boons), and superspeed. Then as we see now, Necros be the sole proprietor of boon corrupts (as it is now), but at the same time, remove winds from warriors, and fuse together ghastly breach and winds and make that the necro elite skill. There is no reason 2 classes should have similar elites.

 

These are just examples, but there are plenty of classes to spread around the roles that guardians currently fulfill.

[God.2708]

> @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> The problem is it basically fills all support rolls when it should only be filling a portion. I don't even see stability as a problem, the problem is they do practically everything better than everybody else. They should not be given access to so many things. The reason we see so many scourges is because of what Firebrands are doing. One firebrand can keep the group healed up, stabbed up, fully booned up, condition free (either due to resistance or constant condition clear/conversion), immune to projectiles (for their group and entire zerg), periodic blocks, all the while dishing out good damage and having invuln's for themselves.

>

> What does a Scourge do? Provides lackluster barrier and converts 2-4 boons every few seconds when the Firebrand is spitting out about 5-10 in the same time frame? What else do they do? Provide damage? Not really, can't rely on conditions as they don't reliably tick through (Swagger's video proved that). Physical damage is mostly nullified either due to blocks or protection.

>

> There are 7 other classes: Warriors, Rev's, Rangers, Thieves, Mesmers, Scrappers, and Ele's. Let Guardians keep their Stab spam and some mediocre healing at best. Take away their resistance, retaliation, blocks, reflects, condition conversions, condition clears, boon spam, burn spam, and invulnerables. There is no reason why all these roles can't be spread across the other classes (except invulnerables, we already have warrior that spams that, we don't need another class doing it).

>

> Put this into perspective.. lets look at the 2 classes that are basically useless when it comes to larger group play; Rangers and thieves. Why can't 2-3 of those things mentioned above be downloaded onto these 2 classes? Why can't say Rangers be the projectile hate class with some means to spread some boons upon their party like swiftness & quickness? Why can't be given some party condition clears and be the boon bots for alacrity and vigor? Now look at the classes that are claimed to have some use but are really being phased out; Ele's and warriors. Make ele's the burn spammers and provide the best healing (because right now it's questionable at best), along with regeneration. Let warriors be the sole users of invulnerables, but let them spread things like retaliation and protection. Let Rev's be the main might and resistance spammers; in fact, no other class should have access to resistance except Rev's. Let the fury and party stealth fall on the mesmer's shoulders. Let the Engie still be the main condition converters (give no other class a means of converting conditions to boons), and superspeed. Then as we see now, Necros be the sole proprietor of boon corrupts (as it is now), but at the same time, remove winds from warriors, and fuse together ghastly breach and winds and make that the necro elite skill. There is no reason 2 classes should have similar elites.

>

> These are just examples, but there are plenty of classes to spread around the roles that guardians currently fulfill.

 

See and this is what concerns me.

 

Elementalists heal better than any other class in WvW by such a large margin it's not even a competition. I can dump 12k+ hp/s from my tempest without breaking a sweat. Scrapper can hit 8k semi comfortably. A firebrand struggles to break 5k. My tempest will put out almost 5x the clears a firebrand FOCUSING solely on clears will. I can match firebrands condi clears on my SCOURGE for crying out loud. Firebrand's condi clears are on a very strict rotation with a lot of openings. You don't get to sit in tome 2 all day.

 

Every single boon firebrand puts out, tempest puts out better, except for stab(the reason people take one firebrand and not a tempest + scrapper) aegis (important, but not vital), retal (useless unless your enemies are all weavers with no healers), and quickness (few firebrands spec for this). They reflect/destroy projectiles just as well (so do scrappers).

 

You literally strike me as not knowing what you are talking about. You have this unrealistic picture of firebrand that does not match the reality at all. The firebrands I see get squashed the moment they find themselves in an enemy winds of disenchantment whilst scrappers and tempests are superspeeding away (another really important thing firebrands can't do).

 

Your attempt at diversifying by making every class do 'one thing' has a very clear counter point. 5 Man parties make it impossible to put all those things so people are just going to select what is necessary. Care to guess what it is from that list you made? Stab (Firebrands) Corrupts (Scourges) Resistance (Revs) and condi clears (Engi) with maybe a warrior or ele squeezed in.

 

Wanna guess what the meta core looks like (Hint. It's firebrand, scrapper, scourge, and rev)

[Vegeta.2563]

Why don't we bring up one of the more overpowered specs from a non-meta class. Condi Deadeye with rifle and venom utilities that spams perma immob with [spotter's Shot](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spotter%27s_Shot "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spotter%27s_Shot"). Most classes can't even touch them because they sit at 1500 range and no one can reach them besides another class with 1500 range, and let's face it, there isn't many of those. Sure you could try curing your own conditions, but the way that works it removes the damaging one first, and even by the time you got to remove the immobilize, it'll just get re-applied anyway. There is no counter play against these and this needs to be looked at.

[Lily.1935]

I've got an idea. Let's quadruple our scourge count so we can properly fight the boon spam.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"God.2708" said:

> > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> > The problem is it basically fills all support rolls when it should only be filling a portion. I don't even see stability as a problem, the problem is they do practically everything better than everybody else. They should not be given access to so many things. The reason we see so many scourges is because of what Firebrands are doing. One firebrand can keep the group healed up, stabbed up, fully booned up, condition free (either due to resistance or constant condition clear/conversion), immune to projectiles (for their group and entire zerg), periodic blocks, all the while dishing out good damage and having invuln's for themselves.

> >

> > What does a Scourge do? Provides lackluster barrier and converts 2-4 boons every few seconds when the Firebrand is spitting out about 5-10 in the same time frame? What else do they do? Provide damage? Not really, can't rely on conditions as they don't reliably tick through (Swagger's video proved that). Physical damage is mostly nullified either due to blocks or protection.

> >

> > There are 7 other classes: Warriors, Rev's, Rangers, Thieves, Mesmers, Scrappers, and Ele's. Let Guardians keep their Stab spam and some mediocre healing at best. Take away their resistance, retaliation, blocks, reflects, condition conversions, condition clears, boon spam, burn spam, and invulnerables. There is no reason why all these roles can't be spread across the other classes (except invulnerables, we already have warrior that spams that, we don't need another class doing it).

> >

> > Put this into perspective.. lets look at the 2 classes that are basically useless when it comes to larger group play; Rangers and thieves. Why can't 2-3 of those things mentioned above be downloaded onto these 2 classes? Why can't say Rangers be the projectile hate class with some means to spread some boons upon their party like swiftness & quickness? Why can't be given some party condition clears and be the boon bots for alacrity and vigor? Now look at the classes that are claimed to have some use but are really being phased out; Ele's and warriors. Make ele's the burn spammers and provide the best healing (because right now it's questionable at best), along with regeneration. Let warriors be the sole users of invulnerables, but let them spread things like retaliation and protection. Let Rev's be the main might and resistance spammers; in fact, no other class should have access to resistance except Rev's. Let the fury and party stealth fall on the mesmer's shoulders. Let the Engie still be the main condition converters (give no other class a means of converting conditions to boons), and superspeed. Then as we see now, Necros be the sole proprietor of boon corrupts (as it is now), but at the same time, remove winds from warriors, and fuse together ghastly breach and winds and make that the necro elite skill. There is no reason 2 classes should have similar elites.

> >

> > These are just examples, but there are plenty of classes to spread around the roles that guardians currently fulfill.

>

> See and this is what concerns me.

>

> Elementalists heal better than any other class in WvW by such a large margin it's not even a competition. I can dump 12k+ hp/s from my tempest without breaking a sweat. Scrapper can hit 8k semi comfortably. A firebrand struggles to break 5k. My tempest will put out almost 5x the clears a firebrand FOCUSING solely on clears will. I can match firebrands condi clears on my SCOURGE for crying out loud. Firebrand's condi clears are on a very strict rotation with a lot of openings. You don't get to sit in tome 2 all day.

>

> Every single boon firebrand puts out, tempest puts out better, except for stab(the reason people take one firebrand and not a tempest + scrapper) aegis (important, but not vital), retal (useless unless your enemies are all weavers with no healers), and quickness (few firebrands spec for this). They reflect/destroy projectiles just as well (so do scrappers).

>

> You literally strike me as not knowing what you are talking about. You have this unrealistic picture of firebrand that does not match the reality at all. The firebrands I see get squashed the moment they find themselves in an enemy winds of disenchantment whilst scrappers and tempests are superspeeding away (another really important thing firebrands can't do).

>

> Your attempt at diversifying by making every class do 'one thing' has a very clear counter point. 5 Man parties make it impossible to put all those things so people are just going to select what is necessary. Care to guess what it is from that list you made? Stab (Firebrands) Corrupts (Scourges) Resistance (Revs) and condi clears (Engi) with maybe a warrior or ele squeezed in.

>

> Wanna guess what the meta core looks like (Hint. It's firebrand, scrapper, scourge, and rev)

 

So what ur really saying is most definitely do not give ele stability boon share lol

I kid.

[miguelsil.6324]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"miguelsil.6324" said:

> > Too much reward with little to no risk.

>

> How's that vid going btw? (not trying to be a kitten, real question)

 

Tbh I had little time to play in the last few days so the time i had was for fun. but I will try on my next day off if i get home earlier to make a few clips.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> I've got an idea. Let's quadruple our scourge count so we can properly fight the boon spam.

 

We gotta assume fb gonna get some hard nerfs in the big patch that comes early next yr if not a small one coming sooner or toning down scourge which definitely was needed will result in fb being even more oppressive which would have to take some kinda devs to miss that lol imagine the hope for the future people would have after that.

[Nimon.7840]

Great. But what does necro get back for these insane nerfs?

 

Nothing?

 

Wheres the guardian nerfs?

- way to many boons and support + way to much dmg from burn guards

 

Do they get deleted as well?

 

Also where's necro buffs for pve?

Cause that will make necro not worth playing in any gamemode

[God.2708]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > @"God.2708" said:

> > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> > > The problem is it basically fills all support rolls when it should only be filling a portion. I don't even see stability as a problem, the problem is they do practically everything better than everybody else. They should not be given access to so many things. The reason we see so many scourges is because of what Firebrands are doing. One firebrand can keep the group healed up, stabbed up, fully booned up, condition free (either due to resistance or constant condition clear/conversion), immune to projectiles (for their group and entire zerg), periodic blocks, all the while dishing out good damage and having invuln's for themselves.

> > >

> > > What does a Scourge do? Provides lackluster barrier and converts 2-4 boons every few seconds when the Firebrand is spitting out about 5-10 in the same time frame? What else do they do? Provide damage? Not really, can't rely on conditions as they don't reliably tick through (Swagger's video proved that). Physical damage is mostly nullified either due to blocks or protection.

> > >

> > > There are 7 other classes: Warriors, Rev's, Rangers, Thieves, Mesmers, Scrappers, and Ele's. Let Guardians keep their Stab spam and some mediocre healing at best. Take away their resistance, retaliation, blocks, reflects, condition conversions, condition clears, boon spam, burn spam, and invulnerables. There is no reason why all these roles can't be spread across the other classes (except invulnerables, we already have warrior that spams that, we don't need another class doing it).

> > >

> > > Put this into perspective.. lets look at the 2 classes that are basically useless when it comes to larger group play; Rangers and thieves. Why can't 2-3 of those things mentioned above be downloaded onto these 2 classes? Why can't say Rangers be the projectile hate class with some means to spread some boons upon their party like swiftness & quickness? Why can't be given some party condition clears and be the boon bots for alacrity and vigor? Now look at the classes that are claimed to have some use but are really being phased out; Ele's and warriors. Make ele's the burn spammers and provide the best healing (because right now it's questionable at best), along with regeneration. Let warriors be the sole users of invulnerables, but let them spread things like retaliation and protection. Let Rev's be the main might and resistance spammers; in fact, no other class should have access to resistance except Rev's. Let the fury and party stealth fall on the mesmer's shoulders. Let the Engie still be the main condition converters (give no other class a means of converting conditions to boons), and superspeed. Then as we see now, Necros be the sole proprietor of boon corrupts (as it is now), but at the same time, remove winds from warriors, and fuse together ghastly breach and winds and make that the necro elite skill. There is no reason 2 classes should have similar elites.

> > >

> > > These are just examples, but there are plenty of classes to spread around the roles that guardians currently fulfill.

> >

> > See and this is what concerns me.

> >

> > Elementalists heal better than any other class in WvW by such a large margin it's not even a competition. I can dump 12k+ hp/s from my tempest without breaking a sweat. Scrapper can hit 8k semi comfortably. A firebrand struggles to break 5k. My tempest will put out almost 5x the clears a firebrand FOCUSING solely on clears will. I can match firebrands condi clears on my SCOURGE for crying out loud. Firebrand's condi clears are on a very strict rotation with a lot of openings. You don't get to sit in tome 2 all day.

> >

> > Every single boon firebrand puts out, tempest puts out better, except for stab(the reason people take one firebrand and not a tempest + scrapper) aegis (important, but not vital), retal (useless unless your enemies are all weavers with no healers), and quickness (few firebrands spec for this). They reflect/destroy projectiles just as well (so do scrappers).

> >

> > You literally strike me as not knowing what you are talking about. You have this unrealistic picture of firebrand that does not match the reality at all. The firebrands I see get squashed the moment they find themselves in an enemy winds of disenchantment whilst scrappers and tempests are superspeeding away (another really important thing firebrands can't do).

> >

> > Your attempt at diversifying by making every class do 'one thing' has a very clear counter point. 5 Man parties make it impossible to put all those things so people are just going to select what is necessary. Care to guess what it is from that list you made? Stab (Firebrands) Corrupts (Scourges) Resistance (Revs) and condi clears (Engi) with maybe a warrior or ele squeezed in.

> >

> > Wanna guess what the meta core looks like (Hint. It's firebrand, scrapper, scourge, and rev)

>

> So what ur really saying is most definitely do not give ele stability boon share lol

> I kid.

 

It is ultimately the thing 'required' to make a support viable. Without it you are relegated to off support. Stab should be the one boon that is not a unique class mechanic. The game actually currently has some pretty interesting and unique class mechanics and decent class diversity in large scale fighting and simply needs TTK brought down now (after this scourge change is implemented).

 

Supports

Firebrand: Boon Provider with off heals/off condi cleanses. Unique provider of mass quickness.

Tempest: Heal/Cleanse provider with off boons. Unique provider of auras (which generally need a small buff to be 'worth')

Scrapper: Cleanse and Superspeed provider with off heals. Unique provider of condi conversion.

 

Then off meta because they need various things, but having one in one party is still useful.

Tactics Spellbreaker: Burst Heals, Condi Cleanses. Unique provider of Winds. Needs an alternative weapon for support and at least a few traits in another trait line to offer some sustain.

Blood Scourge: Mass Barrier generation and Corruption with off condi cleanses. Unique provider of AoE downed movement and Barrier generation. Really just needs regular scourge to not be the obvious go to.

Heal Revenant: Heal provider with off cleanses and unique boons (Stab/resistance). Unique provider of so much kitten healing that they have to be handicapped by a kitten rock they need to move around or other classes couldn't even dream of competing. Needs rock to be less janky.

Druid: Heals with off boons and condi cleanses. Unique provider of certain offensive buffs and Glyph of stars. Needs spirits to be less killable and some of its healing that got locked behind lingering light cuz of PvE to be improved some.

 

Support Chrono won't work so long as they require a clone out to shatter. Their healing capability needs to get improved moderately as well (or every other healer nerfed DRASTICALLY)

Support Thief, um...

 

I see the meta supports run very frequently, in a 1:1 ratio with firebrand and firebrand only necessitated because of stab. I have seen all the off meta supports run effectively, and would never turn any one of them if I knew the player could show up on them. I wouldn't build a comp around them though. When I see people say firebrand does everything and is godlike I have to shake my head.

 

You probably didn't want any of that, but I felt like typing out my thoughts on WvW supports as they stand in comparison to each other and you're the lucky winner, lol.

 

[Spurnshadow.3678]

It's a move in the right direction. You need to get rid of any skills, except maybe long CD elite skills and portal, that effect more than 10 people. This is WvW, not raids with a party of 10.

[Reaper.4395]

Can you stop nerfing necro alone? Nerf all GWENR meta (guard, war, ele, necro, rev). "Far above other options in terms of damage"? Revs and eles do more dmg in almost every fight. After last devouring darkness nerf wars often do more boon strips, no need to nerf more. Barrier? Ok there i completly agree, its not a necromancer theme to save someone from death, remove barrier and give this role to someone else (druid for example), but let necros do their thematic work. Necro aoe skills are closest to what aoe should be - its hit more targets, but every single hit do realy small dmg. And look at meteor shower or rev hammer skills, single meteor hits more than most single target skills

[misterman.1530]

> @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> The problem is it basically fills all support rolls when it should only be filling a portion. I don't even see stability as a problem, the problem is they do practically everything better than everybody else. They should not be given access to so many things. The reason we see so many scourges is because of what Firebrands are doing. One firebrand can keep the group healed up, stabbed up, fully booned up, condition free (either due to resistance or constant condition clear/conversion), immune to projectiles (for their group and entire zerg), periodic blocks, all the while dishing out good damage and having invuln's for themselves.

>

> What does a Scourge do? Provides lackluster barrier and converts 2-4 boons every few seconds when the Firebrand is spitting out about 5-10 in the same time frame? What else do they do? Provide damage? Not really, can't rely on conditions as they don't reliably tick through (Swagger's video proved that). Physical damage is mostly nullified either due to blocks or protection.

>

> There are 7 other classes: Warriors, Rev's, Rangers, Thieves, Mesmers, Scrappers, and Ele's. Let Guardians keep their Stab spam and some mediocre healing at best. Take away their resistance, retaliation, blocks, reflects, condition conversions, condition clears, boon spam, burn spam, and invulnerables. There is no reason why all these roles can't be spread across the other classes (except invulnerables, we already have warrior that spams that, we don't need another class doing it).

>

> Put this into perspective.. lets look at the 2 classes that are basically useless when it comes to larger group play; Rangers and thieves. Why can't 2-3 of those things mentioned above be downloaded onto these 2 classes? Why can't say Rangers be the projectile hate class with some means to spread some boons upon their party like swiftness & quickness? Why can't be given some party condition clears and be the boon bots for alacrity and vigor? Now look at the classes that are claimed to have some use but are really being phased out; Ele's and warriors. Make ele's the burn spammers and provide the best healing (because right now it's questionable at best), along with regeneration. Let warriors be the sole users of invulnerables, but let them spread things like retaliation and protection. Let Rev's be the main might and resistance spammers; in fact, no other class should have access to resistance except Rev's. Let the fury and party stealth fall on the mesmer's shoulders. Let the Engie still be the main condition converters (give no other class a means of converting conditions to boons), and superspeed. Then as we see now, Necros be the sole proprietor of boon corrupts (as it is now), but at the same time, remove winds from warriors, and fuse together ghastly breach and winds and make that the necro elite skill. There is no reason 2 classes should have similar elites.

>

> These are just examples, but there are plenty of classes to spread around the roles that guardians currently fulfill.

 

Yeah...way too rational. No way you get a direct response to your post from Anet. It'll be "We've looked at the numbers and yadda-yadda-yadda" I don't hold out much hope, if the way they rolled out Builds and Equipment templates is any indication.

[Sovereign.1093]

devs got to find a way where there is a working population on all sides.

 

it sucks where you got 6 and the enemy is queue and not only on 1 border but atleast 2. :/

 

also it does not help that there is no incentive to help each other since you cant trully know a person for 2 months. like the bonds you make per link is superfcial.

 

and knowing that diablo 4 is coming out soon, i am sure wvw will be empty. >.<