Leonidrex.5649 Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > Ahhhh Illusionary Ambush and Axes of Symmetry are bae <3 > > > > Wanna hide behind a wall....POOF now you are downed. Beat so many people this way (moreso scourges/reapers strangely enough, next is rangers) > > LOL does it really go through walls within range > No one ever uses axe anymore its like a rarity so ive never noticed. > If so thanks for the tip i appreciate it. > It does work, but its a hit or miss depending on the wall thickness and distance to the wall, Axe 3 can actually teleport close to it and just dash into a wall doing nothing. But since its melee attack it can still hit you through the wall. But since its random, if you are close to the wall (behind it) you are very likely to get hit ( about 50/50 ). What helps is using stairs or different elevation, that gliches axe alot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Zexanima.7851" said: > > > @"SeikeNz.3526" said: > > > what kind of balance is that? > > > like mesmers skills get interrupted if someone goes behind you or from your sides making you waste the skill and get killed, then you have other classes that can teleport behind walls and auto turn to atk? > > > > Just going to use thief as an example because it's what I know best and fits the bill. If you removed their ability to teleport/shadowstep you would have to compensate them for it or else they would just become..well...completely useless. If you buffed their damage they would just start nuking people from stealth which would be even more frustrating. If you buffed their raw defense they would be just be a low damage kitten warrior. Teleports are strong no doubt but I don't think they are placed on any profession which doesn't need them. If I **had** to argue against teleports the only one I personally have a grudge against in guardian but again, if they didn't have it, they would be so slow it would be a joke. > > It's not a question of "why do some classes need teleports". But rather "Why do targeted teleports get to ignore line of sight while ground targeted ones have to obey line of sight." Im not even sure this is a question even though the answer should be fairly obvious. Because its physically impossible via the laws of physics for you to select the ground behind an object as we live in a 3d world you can only ever see 2 or 3 planes at a time. The game is also designed around this, so its not possible for you to slip your mouse behind something if you are on the opposite end of it and select the ground in that spot. At best you can slip beside it as physics would allow which most games are designed around even if they are in a fantasy setting you cant break the real world laws of physics lol unless they specifically design the game to allow you to do that and gw2 does not with ground targeted teleports. I still dont see how targeted teleports are suddenly getting so much flack we now know that 4 of the professions of the 9 at least have this optionally available via weapon skill or utility skill thats almost half the professions in the game. Ive already pointed out the only one that breaks the standard in terms of targeted tp's beyond line of sight if that one gets a minor adjustment (which im not sure its needed) all of them will have the same risk in terms of reward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Zexanima.7851" said: > > > > @"SeikeNz.3526" said: > > > > what kind of balance is that? > > > > like mesmers skills get interrupted if someone goes behind you or from your sides making you waste the skill and get killed, then you have other classes that can teleport behind walls and auto turn to atk? > > > > > > Just going to use thief as an example because it's what I know best and fits the bill. If you removed their ability to teleport/shadowstep you would have to compensate them for it or else they would just become..well...completely useless. If you buffed their damage they would just start nuking people from stealth which would be even more frustrating. If you buffed their raw defense they would be just be a low damage kitten warrior. Teleports are strong no doubt but I don't think they are placed on any profession which doesn't need them. If I **had** to argue against teleports the only one I personally have a grudge against in guardian but again, if they didn't have it, they would be so slow it would be a joke. > > > > It's not a question of "why do some classes need teleports". But rather "Why do targeted teleports get to ignore line of sight while ground targeted ones have to obey line of sight." > > Im not even sure this is a question even though the answer should be fairly obvious. > > Because its physically impossible via the laws of physics for you to select the ground behind an object as we live in a 3d world you can only ever see 2 or 3 planes at a time. The game is also designed around this, so its not possible for you to slip your mouse behind something if you are on the opposite end of it and select the ground in that spot. At best you can slip beside it as physics would allow which most games are designed around even if they are in a fantasy setting you cant break the real world laws of physics lol unless they specifically design the game to allow you to do that and gw2 does not with ground targeted teleports. > > I still dont see how targeted teleports are suddenly getting so much flack we now know that 4 of the professions of the 9 at least have this optionally available via weapon skill or utility skill thats almost half the professions in the game. Ive already pointed out the only one that breaks the standard in terms of targeted tp's beyond line of sight if that one gets a minor adjustment (which im not sure its needed) all of them will have the same risk in terms of reward. > This post is legit nonsense, I've seen blink fail at a spot I had ground targeted plenty of times. Have you never heard of angling your camera downwards? This is like one of the most "I have never played thief, or mesmer, or ele with lightning flash" post I have ever seen.  "Not possible" "Physics wouldn't allow it" lol. Targeting things the way we do in game is also literally impossible. I mean heck TELEPORTING AT ALL is impossible. The reason its a talking point is because of Condition SD thief is really popular. It can port in with the sword, and port back out to hit and run and both ignore line of sight. I mean heck Infiltrator's Return is a "ground targeted" teleport that works through walls. Also Revenant is also a hugely important build right now competatively and while they aren't going to hit and run line of sighting you as they blink through a wall over and over, jumping you from behind walls is a big part of what makes them strong in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"Zexanima.7851" said: > > > > > @"SeikeNz.3526" said: > > > > > what kind of balance is that? > > > > > like mesmers skills get interrupted if someone goes behind you or from your sides making you waste the skill and get killed, then you have other classes that can teleport behind walls and auto turn to atk? > > > > > > > > Just going to use thief as an example because it's what I know best and fits the bill. If you removed their ability to teleport/shadowstep you would have to compensate them for it or else they would just become..well...completely useless. If you buffed their damage they would just start nuking people from stealth which would be even more frustrating. If you buffed their raw defense they would be just be a low damage kitten warrior. Teleports are strong no doubt but I don't think they are placed on any profession which doesn't need them. If I **had** to argue against teleports the only one I personally have a grudge against in guardian but again, if they didn't have it, they would be so slow it would be a joke. > > > > > > It's not a question of "why do some classes need teleports". But rather "Why do targeted teleports get to ignore line of sight while ground targeted ones have to obey line of sight." > > > > Im not even sure this is a question even though the answer should be fairly obvious. > > > > Because its physically impossible via the laws of physics for you to select the ground behind an object as we live in a 3d world you can only ever see 2 or 3 planes at a time. The game is also designed around this, so its not possible for you to slip your mouse behind something if you are on the opposite end of it and select the ground in that spot. At best you can slip beside it as physics would allow which most games are designed around even if they are in a fantasy setting you cant break the real world laws of physics lol unless they specifically design the game to allow you to do that and gw2 does not with ground targeted teleports. > > > > I still dont see how targeted teleports are suddenly getting so much flack we now know that 4 of the professions of the 9 at least have this optionally available via weapon skill or utility skill thats almost half the professions in the game. Ive already pointed out the only one that breaks the standard in terms of targeted tp's beyond line of sight if that one gets a minor adjustment (which im not sure its needed) all of them will have the same risk in terms of reward. > > > > This post is legit nonsense, I've seen blink fail at a spot I had ground targeted plenty of times. Have you never heard of angling your camera downwards? This is like one of the most "I have never played thief, or mesmer, or ele with lightning flash" post I have ever seen. > >  > > "Not possible" lol Thats technically not a wall but ok you know what i mean im talking legit walls. Thats just an odd pathing issue which is a totally different situation because people hide beind an open space where they can still be shot by projectiles and seen clearly... Dont call me out for nonsense and then use unrealistic nonsense to try and justify crazy. Im sorry you cant understand the concept of being limited to 3 dimensional space Even if you point your camera down technically speaking your character in a lot of situations (not the one you showed) would not be able to see over to the other side of the obstruction. and if its a legit structure that people actually use to hide themselves as part of a strat in pvp it wouldnt be an example like this. hiding behind a wall or being on the other side of an object is no the same thing as standing on a "no port spot" No port spots are just spots you cant tp through regardless not even targeted teleports can blink you to these spots some times. Those are a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"Zexanima.7851" said: > > > > > > @"SeikeNz.3526" said: > > > > > > what kind of balance is that? > > > > > > like mesmers skills get interrupted if someone goes behind you or from your sides making you waste the skill and get killed, then you have other classes that can teleport behind walls and auto turn to atk? > > > > > > > > > > Just going to use thief as an example because it's what I know best and fits the bill. If you removed their ability to teleport/shadowstep you would have to compensate them for it or else they would just become..well...completely useless. If you buffed their damage they would just start nuking people from stealth which would be even more frustrating. If you buffed their raw defense they would be just be a low damage kitten warrior. Teleports are strong no doubt but I don't think they are placed on any profession which doesn't need them. If I **had** to argue against teleports the only one I personally have a grudge against in guardian but again, if they didn't have it, they would be so slow it would be a joke. > > > > > > > > It's not a question of "why do some classes need teleports". But rather "Why do targeted teleports get to ignore line of sight while ground targeted ones have to obey line of sight." > > > > > > Im not even sure this is a question even though the answer should be fairly obvious. > > > > > > Because its physically impossible via the laws of physics for you to select the ground behind an object as we live in a 3d world you can only ever see 2 or 3 planes at a time. The game is also designed around this, so its not possible for you to slip your mouse behind something if you are on the opposite end of it and select the ground in that spot. At best you can slip beside it as physics would allow which most games are designed around even if they are in a fantasy setting you cant break the real world laws of physics lol unless they specifically design the game to allow you to do that and gw2 does not with ground targeted teleports. > > > > > > I still dont see how targeted teleports are suddenly getting so much flack we now know that 4 of the professions of the 9 at least have this optionally available via weapon skill or utility skill thats almost half the professions in the game. Ive already pointed out the only one that breaks the standard in terms of targeted tp's beyond line of sight if that one gets a minor adjustment (which im not sure its needed) all of them will have the same risk in terms of reward. > > > > > > > This post is legit nonsense, I've seen blink fail at a spot I had ground targeted plenty of times. Have you never heard of angling your camera downwards? This is like one of the most "I have never played thief, or mesmer, or ele with lightning flash" post I have ever seen. > > > >  > > > > "Not possible" lol > > Thats technically not a wall but ok you know what i mean im talking legit walls. Thats just an odd pathing issue which is a totally different situation because people hide beind an open space where they can still be shot by projectiles and seen clearly... > > Dont call me out for nonsense and then use unrealistic nonsense to try and justify crazy. > Im sorry you cant understand the concept of being limited to 3 dimensional space > > Even if you point your camera down technically speaking your character in a lot of situations (not the one you showed) would not be able to see over to the other side of the obstruction. and if its a legit structure that people actually use to hide themselves as part of a strat in pvp it wouldnt be an example like this. > > hiding behind a wall or being on the other side of an object is no the same thing as standing on a "no port spot" > No port spots are just spots you cant tp through regardless not even targeted teleports can blink you to these spots some times. Those are a thing. > **That's not an odd pathing issue.** That's "No Line Of Sight", not "No Valid Path". You can see the error message in the image. **I made sure you can see the error message is specifically No Line Of Sight in the screen shot.** If I moved a little bit around the platform where I got line of sight past the central part of the fountain I'd be able to blink. First you're arguing about realism in a fantasy game, and not just any part but which teleports are "realistic". Some how a thief "targeting you" from behind a wall which they can't see through. , which is not realistic and a game mechanic, instantly teleporting to you and also picking your pocket and taking an item that isn't even something you're carrying is "realistc" but Blinking up a hill that's just too steep or behind a fence is "unrealistic".        There's a lot of places where you absolutely have valid path and would otherwise be able to port but for the game demands line of sight on ground based teleports that aren't Shadow Return and Infiltrator's Return. So how is it fair that there's so many places I can mouse blink on top of and have 100% absolutely have valid path but can't port while thieves can port through these exact same trajectories and back again over and over? Either ground targeted ports should have their LoS restrictions removed, if you have valid path and can mouse over it you can blink to it, or the enemy targeted blinks should have LoS restrictions added. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > @"Zexanima.7851" said: > > > > > > > @"SeikeNz.3526" said: > > > > > > > what kind of balance is that? > > > > > > > like mesmers skills get interrupted if someone goes behind you or from your sides making you waste the skill and get killed, then you have other classes that can teleport behind walls and auto turn to atk? > > > > > > > > > > > > Just going to use thief as an example because it's what I know best and fits the bill. If you removed their ability to teleport/shadowstep you would have to compensate them for it or else they would just become..well...completely useless. If you buffed their damage they would just start nuking people from stealth which would be even more frustrating. If you buffed their raw defense they would be just be a low damage kitten warrior. Teleports are strong no doubt but I don't think they are placed on any profession which doesn't need them. If I **had** to argue against teleports the only one I personally have a grudge against in guardian but again, if they didn't have it, they would be so slow it would be a joke. > > > > > > > > > > It's not a question of "why do some classes need teleports". But rather "Why do targeted teleports get to ignore line of sight while ground targeted ones have to obey line of sight." > > > > > > > > Im not even sure this is a question even though the answer should be fairly obvious. > > > > > > > > Because its physically impossible via the laws of physics for you to select the ground behind an object as we live in a 3d world you can only ever see 2 or 3 planes at a time. The game is also designed around this, so its not possible for you to slip your mouse behind something if you are on the opposite end of it and select the ground in that spot. At best you can slip beside it as physics would allow which most games are designed around even if they are in a fantasy setting you cant break the real world laws of physics lol unless they specifically design the game to allow you to do that and gw2 does not with ground targeted teleports. > > > > > > > > I still dont see how targeted teleports are suddenly getting so much flack we now know that 4 of the professions of the 9 at least have this optionally available via weapon skill or utility skill thats almost half the professions in the game. Ive already pointed out the only one that breaks the standard in terms of targeted tp's beyond line of sight if that one gets a minor adjustment (which im not sure its needed) all of them will have the same risk in terms of reward. > > > > > > > > > > This post is legit nonsense, I've seen blink fail at a spot I had ground targeted plenty of times. Have you never heard of angling your camera downwards? This is like one of the most "I have never played thief, or mesmer, or ele with lightning flash" post I have ever seen. > > > > > >  > > > > > > "Not possible" lol > > > > Thats technically not a wall but ok you know what i mean im talking legit walls. Thats just an odd pathing issue which is a totally different situation because people hide beind an open space where they can still be shot by projectiles and seen clearly... > > > > Dont call me out for nonsense and then use unrealistic nonsense to try and justify crazy. > > Im sorry you cant understand the concept of being limited to 3 dimensional space > > > > Even if you point your camera down technically speaking your character in a lot of situations (not the one you showed) would not be able to see over to the other side of the obstruction. and if its a legit structure that people actually use to hide themselves as part of a strat in pvp it wouldnt be an example like this. > > > > hiding behind a wall or being on the other side of an object is no the same thing as standing on a "no port spot" > > No port spots are just spots you cant tp through regardless not even targeted teleports can blink you to these spots some times. Those are a thing. > > > > **That's not an odd pathing issue.** That's "No Line Of Sight", not "No Valid Path". You can see the error message in the image. **I made sure you can see the error message is specifically No Line Of Sight in the screen shot.** If I moved a little bit around the platform where I got line of sight past the central part of the fountain I'd be able to blink. > > First you're arguing about realism in a fantasy game, and not just any part but which teleports are "realistic". Some how a thief "targeting you" from behind a wall which they can't see through. , which is not realistic and a game mechanic, instantly teleporting to you and also picking your pocket and taking an item that isn't even something you're carrying is "realistc" but Blinking up a hill that's just too steep or behind a fence is "unrealistic". > >  >  >  >  >  >  >  > > There's a lot of places where you absolutely have valid path and would otherwise be able to port but for the game demands line of sight on ground based teleports that aren't Shadow Return and Infiltrator's Return. > > So how is it fair that there's so many places I can mouse blink on top of and have 100% absolutely have valid path but can't port while thieves can port through these exact same trajectories and back again over and over? > > Either ground targeted ports should have their LoS restrictions removed, if you have valid path and can mouse over it you can blink to it, or the enemy targeted blinks should have LoS restrictions added. Some of these port spots from where you are standing are 100% things you cannot port to with a ground targeted blink even if you can see where you mouse its but that said some of these spots are just no port spots. The game will aways say no valid path because thats the default message it gives when a port cannot go from 1 spot to another. Some of these spots in your examples are questionable but then again some of them are not things people hide behind either which was also part of the argument. Some of these are just spots out in the open and im sure in some of these spots even targeted teleports wouldn't work due to not having a valid path or the port would port you but still not reach the target. Overall all this arguing now is silly the game has been this way for the bigger part of 2? 4? 5? 6? years with multiple professions having ground blinks that have limits and targeted blinks to a target that have limits even in the sense that they require a target. There was always only ever 1 outlier and thats thief with the sense that it can go back after porting through a structure while other professions cannot at most thats the only thing that should be changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > @"Zexanima.7851" said: > > > > > > > > @"SeikeNz.3526" said: > > > > > > > > what kind of balance is that? > > > > > > > > like mesmers skills get interrupted if someone goes behind you or from your sides making you waste the skill and get killed, then you have other classes that can teleport behind walls and auto turn to atk? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just going to use thief as an example because it's what I know best and fits the bill. If you removed their ability to teleport/shadowstep you would have to compensate them for it or else they would just become..well...completely useless. If you buffed their damage they would just start nuking people from stealth which would be even more frustrating. If you buffed their raw defense they would be just be a low damage kitten warrior. Teleports are strong no doubt but I don't think they are placed on any profession which doesn't need them. If I **had** to argue against teleports the only one I personally have a grudge against in guardian but again, if they didn't have it, they would be so slow it would be a joke. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not a question of "why do some classes need teleports". But rather "Why do targeted teleports get to ignore line of sight while ground targeted ones have to obey line of sight." > > > > > > > > > > Im not even sure this is a question even though the answer should be fairly obvious. > > > > > > > > > > Because its physically impossible via the laws of physics for you to select the ground behind an object as we live in a 3d world you can only ever see 2 or 3 planes at a time. The game is also designed around this, so its not possible for you to slip your mouse behind something if you are on the opposite end of it and select the ground in that spot. At best you can slip beside it as physics would allow which most games are designed around even if they are in a fantasy setting you cant break the real world laws of physics lol unless they specifically design the game to allow you to do that and gw2 does not with ground targeted teleports. > > > > > > > > > > I still dont see how targeted teleports are suddenly getting so much flack we now know that 4 of the professions of the 9 at least have this optionally available via weapon skill or utility skill thats almost half the professions in the game. Ive already pointed out the only one that breaks the standard in terms of targeted tp's beyond line of sight if that one gets a minor adjustment (which im not sure its needed) all of them will have the same risk in terms of reward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > This post is legit nonsense, I've seen blink fail at a spot I had ground targeted plenty of times. Have you never heard of angling your camera downwards? This is like one of the most "I have never played thief, or mesmer, or ele with lightning flash" post I have ever seen. > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > "Not possible" lol > > > > > > Thats technically not a wall but ok you know what i mean im talking legit walls. Thats just an odd pathing issue which is a totally different situation because people hide beind an open space where they can still be shot by projectiles and seen clearly... > > > > > > Dont call me out for nonsense and then use unrealistic nonsense to try and justify crazy. > > > Im sorry you cant understand the concept of being limited to 3 dimensional space > > > > > > Even if you point your camera down technically speaking your character in a lot of situations (not the one you showed) would not be able to see over to the other side of the obstruction. and if its a legit structure that people actually use to hide themselves as part of a strat in pvp it wouldnt be an example like this. > > > > > > hiding behind a wall or being on the other side of an object is no the same thing as standing on a "no port spot" > > > No port spots are just spots you cant tp through regardless not even targeted teleports can blink you to these spots some times. Those are a thing. > > > > > > > **That's not an odd pathing issue.** That's "No Line Of Sight", not "No Valid Path". You can see the error message in the image. **I made sure you can see the error message is specifically No Line Of Sight in the screen shot.** If I moved a little bit around the platform where I got line of sight past the central part of the fountain I'd be able to blink. > > > > First you're arguing about realism in a fantasy game, and not just any part but which teleports are "realistic". Some how a thief "targeting you" from behind a wall which they can't see through. , which is not realistic and a game mechanic, instantly teleporting to you and also picking your pocket and taking an item that isn't even something you're carrying is "realistc" but Blinking up a hill that's just too steep or behind a fence is "unrealistic". > > > >  > >  > >  > >  > >  > >  > >  > > > > There's a lot of places where you absolutely have valid path and would otherwise be able to port but for the game demands line of sight on ground based teleports that aren't Shadow Return and Infiltrator's Return. > > > > So how is it fair that there's so many places I can mouse blink on top of and have 100% absolutely have valid path but can't port while thieves can port through these exact same trajectories and back again over and over? > > > > Either ground targeted ports should have their LoS restrictions removed, if you have valid path and can mouse over it you can blink to it, or the enemy targeted blinks should have LoS restrictions added. > > Some of these port spots from where you are standing are 100% things you cannot port to with a ground targeted blink even if you can see where you mouse its but that said some of these spots are just no port spots. **You. Are. Wrong. You do not know what you are talking about.** Not only do you not know what you are talking about you aren't actually looking at the screen shots of very clear examples with big clear red text saying "NO LINE OF SIGHT". And in every single one of them if you took the time to look you could see for yourself that I 100% can see where my mouse is on all of them. None of these are No Port. If you try to blink onto a no port it will not change the color of your ground target cursor to red, it remains green. It ONLY goes from green to reds that in specific regard to No Line of Sight or Out of Range. In fact I can make most of those ports by just adjusting my characters position to change the angle so they are line of sight.    This is what an actual No Port Spot looks like.  Because the game cannot tell if it's a No Port until you've chosen a spot and tried a port, but it can detect if you've met the range or line of sight requirements for skills and thus it will change the color of the ground target indicator to inform you something has gone wrong. A good rule of thumb for finding legitimate no ports is to ask yourself a question "Can an NPC that cannot jump get there?" if the answer is "Yes" you can port to there. If the answer is no, it is a No Port. > The game will aways say no valid path **LOOK. AT. THE. SCREENS.** **They DO NOT SAY "NO VALID PATH".** I'm done with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > **LOOK. AT. THE. SCREENS.** > > **They DO NOT SAY "NO VALID PATH".** > > I'm done with you. Go redo these in first person and see if you can select those areas and send me new examples. Otherwise be done with your non blinking self and deal with not being able to blink to spots your character literally cannot see. Im sorry you dont understand that the point of the camera is not the point of reference used for line of sight and that you dont understand the concepts of 3d space. ? Late note as i said its been this way for 7 years for the most part deal with it most others do. Or just ask for blink to be turned into a target teleport so that you can port over walls at the expense of requiring a target first. idk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > **LOOK. AT. THE. SCREENS.** > > > > **They DO NOT SAY "NO VALID PATH".** > > > > I'm done with you. > > Go redo these in first person and see if you can select those areas and send me new examples. Otherwise be done with your non blinking self and deal with not being able to blink to spots your character literally cannot see. Someone attached rocket boots to the goal post once they got proven wrong: > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Zexanima.7851" said: > > > > @"SeikeNz.3526" said: > > > > what kind of balance is that? > > > > like mesmers skills get interrupted if someone goes behind you or from your sides making you waste the skill and get killed, then you have other classes that can teleport behind walls and auto turn to atk? > > > > > > Just going to use thief as an example because it's what I know best and fits the bill. If you removed their ability to teleport/shadowstep you would have to compensate them for it or else they would just become..well...completely useless. If you buffed their damage they would just start nuking people from stealth which would be even more frustrating. If you buffed their raw defense they would be just be a low damage kitten warrior. Teleports are strong no doubt but I don't think they are placed on any profession which doesn't need them. If I **had** to argue against teleports the only one I personally have a grudge against in guardian but again, if they didn't have it, they would be so slow it would be a joke. > > > > It's not a question of "why do some classes need teleports". But rather "Why do targeted teleports get to ignore line of sight while ground targeted ones have to obey line of sight." > > Im not even sure this is a question even though the answer should be fairly obvious. > > Because its physically impossible via the laws of physics for you to select the ground behind an object as we live in a 3d world you can only ever see 2 or 3 planes at a time. You've gone from "It's impossible to even ground target behind line of sight" to "these are just normal ports you can never do these ports with any class or skill. No Line of Sight doesn't exist that's why all these screen shots say No Valid Path." to "Third person doesn't count." There's no justifiable reason for enemy targeted ports to ignore line of sight rules and teleport through walls and floors onto enemies they cannot see if ground targeted skills cannot do the same, they are just arbitrary rules . Either enemy targeted ports should be forced to have a Line of Sight requirement, or Ground Targeted port skills should lose their Line of Sight requirement. Because right now you have the same fundamental mechanic with an arbitrary split in the rules and requirements for no reason that heavily favors two professions that abuse their lessened requirements for advantages they should not have. Arenanet also clearly didn't expect teleporting through walls to be such a huge mechanic when they were designing the game because unless you either: A. Have a target called by another player you can take or B. Can see them through your 3rd party camera you can't tab target or click a target to use an enemy targeted no port anyway. So we're already looking at something semi-exploitative that people are getting around using the game's 3rd party camera. It's just the grounded targeted ones that can't do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > **LOOK. AT. THE. SCREENS.** > > > > > > **They DO NOT SAY "NO VALID PATH".** > > > > > > I'm done with you. > > > > Go redo these in first person and see if you can select those areas and send me new examples. Otherwise be done with your non blinking self and deal with not being able to blink to spots your character literally cannot see. > > Someone attached rocket boots to the goal post once they got proven wrong: > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"Zexanima.7851" said: > > > > > @"SeikeNz.3526" said: > > > > > what kind of balance is that? > > > > > like mesmers skills get interrupted if someone goes behind you or from your sides making you waste the skill and get killed, then you have other classes that can teleport behind walls and auto turn to atk? > > > > > > > > Just going to use thief as an example because it's what I know best and fits the bill. If you removed their ability to teleport/shadowstep you would have to compensate them for it or else they would just become..well...completely useless. If you buffed their damage they would just start nuking people from stealth which would be even more frustrating. If you buffed their raw defense they would be just be a low damage kitten warrior. Teleports are strong no doubt but I don't think they are placed on any profession which doesn't need them. If I **had** to argue against teleports the only one I personally have a grudge against in guardian but again, if they didn't have it, they would be so slow it would be a joke. > > > > > > It's not a question of "why do some classes need teleports". But rather "Why do targeted teleports get to ignore line of sight while ground targeted ones have to obey line of sight." > > > > Im not even sure this is a question even though the answer should be fairly obvious. > > > > Because its physically impossible via the laws of physics for you to select the ground behind an object as we live in a 3d world you can only ever see 2 or 3 planes at a time. > > You've gone from "It's impossible to even ground target behind line of sight" to "these are just normal ports you can never do these ports with any class or skill. No Line of Sight doesn't exist that's why all these screen shots say No Valid Path." to "Third person doesn't count." > > There's no justifiable reason for enemy targeted ports to ignore line of sight rules and teleport through walls and floors onto enemies they cannot see if ground targeted skills cannot do the same, they are just arbitrary rules . Either enemy targeted ports should be forced to have a Line of Sight requirement, or Ground Targeted port skills should lose their Line of Sight requirement. Because right now you have the same fundamental mechanic with an arbitrary split in the rules and requirements for no reason that heavily favors two professions that abuse their lessened requirements for advantages they should not have. Well clearly there are some differences yes both cases move a character from A to B the differince being is that one gives the player the option of where B is while the other B is determined by having or requiring a target to even get to that position. That alone makes them different at the end result even if the fundamental concept is the same. Lastly you assume that the later favors those professions in all situations which is not the case. As their mobility tools cannot be used at all without a target while ground targets can. Yet another difference that makes them not completely fundamentally the same at the end result. Even more so when it comes to the versatility of them being used for going all in or escaping a situation. Some would probably say ground targeted ports are better depending on the situation in which you would use them for and how you play vs a port that needs a target to function. > > Arenanet also clearly didn't expect teleporting through walls to be such a huge mechanic when they were designing the game because unless you either: A. Have a target called by another player you can take or B. Can see them through your 3rd party camera you can't tab target or click a target to use an enemy targeted no port anyway. So we're already looking at something semi-exploitative that people are getting around using the game's 3rd party camera. It's just the grounded targeted ones that can't do the same. Or they did they could have removed it from thief back when shadow return was instant and used to go back and forth through walls and other obstructions even while cced and they chose not to change it. On top of this they have added rev and given it a utility which allows them to teleport to a target and even mirage axe has this feature apparently to a lesser range. So to say they didnt expect these things is not likely the case. Even guardian has had the power to blink to a target but only a target for a long time and it was never an issue before. Overall all this frustration and complaining about a 7 year old mechanic that was never a massive issue till this post was made (to my knowledge, or at least i never saw it as one) is not worth all the finger pointing for what most people see as common gameplay with nothing wrong. It would be far better used trying to figure out how to balance out the few odd balls so that some risk is associated with blinks that do allow people to blink through obstructions or only allowing ground targeted blinks to go through obstructions if you can cover a target within the ground marker of the blink. Guardian has supportive skill similar to what I'm talking about where it will only blink you to the spot you mark on the ground if there is an friendly within its radius when you attempt to use the skill. EVEN if we do change how blinks work overall there are still going to likely be some spots where some things will work and others wont because the game is not perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > **LOOK. AT. THE. SCREENS.** > > > > > > > > **They DO NOT SAY "NO VALID PATH".** > > > > > > > > I'm done with you. > > > > > > Go redo these in first person and see if you can select those areas and send me new examples. Otherwise be done with your non blinking self and deal with not being able to blink to spots your character literally cannot see. > > > > Someone attached rocket boots to the goal post once they got proven wrong: > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"Zexanima.7851" said: > > > > > > @"SeikeNz.3526" said: > > > > > > what kind of balance is that? > > > > > > like mesmers skills get interrupted if someone goes behind you or from your sides making you waste the skill and get killed, then you have other classes that can teleport behind walls and auto turn to atk? > > > > > > > > > > Just going to use thief as an example because it's what I know best and fits the bill. If you removed their ability to teleport/shadowstep you would have to compensate them for it or else they would just become..well...completely useless. If you buffed their damage they would just start nuking people from stealth which would be even more frustrating. If you buffed their raw defense they would be just be a low damage kitten warrior. Teleports are strong no doubt but I don't think they are placed on any profession which doesn't need them. If I **had** to argue against teleports the only one I personally have a grudge against in guardian but again, if they didn't have it, they would be so slow it would be a joke. > > > > > > > > It's not a question of "why do some classes need teleports". But rather "Why do targeted teleports get to ignore line of sight while ground targeted ones have to obey line of sight." > > > > > > Im not even sure this is a question even though the answer should be fairly obvious. > > > > > > Because its physically impossible via the laws of physics for you to select the ground behind an object as we live in a 3d world you can only ever see 2 or 3 planes at a time. > > > > You've gone from "It's impossible to even ground target behind line of sight" to "these are just normal ports you can never do these ports with any class or skill. No Line of Sight doesn't exist that's why all these screen shots say No Valid Path." to "Third person doesn't count." > > > > There's no justifiable reason for enemy targeted ports to ignore line of sight rules and teleport through walls and floors onto enemies they cannot see if ground targeted skills cannot do the same, they are just arbitrary rules . Either enemy targeted ports should be forced to have a Line of Sight requirement, or Ground Targeted port skills should lose their Line of Sight requirement. Because right now you have the same fundamental mechanic with an arbitrary split in the rules and requirements for no reason that heavily favors two professions that abuse their lessened requirements for advantages they should not have. > > Well clearly there are some differences yes both cases move a character from A to B the differince being is that one gives the player the option of where B is while the other B is determined by having or requiring a target to even get to that position. That alone makes them different at the end result even if the fundamental concept is the same. Lastly you assume that the later favors those professions in all situations which is not the case. As their mobility tools cannot be used at all without a target while ground targets can. Yet another difference that makes them not completely fundamentally the same at the end result. Even more so when it comes to the versatility of them being used for going all in or escaping a situation. > > Some would probably say ground targeted ports are better depending on the situation in which you would use them for and how you play vs a port that needs a target to function. > > > > > Arenanet also clearly didn't expect teleporting through walls to be such a huge mechanic when they were designing the game because unless you either: A. Have a target called by another player you can take or B. Can see them through your 3rd party camera you can't tab target or click a target to use an enemy targeted no port anyway. So we're already looking at something semi-exploitative that people are getting around using the game's 3rd party camera. It's just the grounded targeted ones that can't do the same. > > Or they did they could have removed it from thief back when shadow return was instant and used to go back and forth through walls and other obstructions even while cced and they chose not to change it. On top of this they have added rev and given it a utility which allows them to teleport to a target and even mirage axe has this feature apparently to a lesser range. So to say they didnt expect these things is not likely the case. Even guardian has had the power to blink to a target but only a target for a long time and it was never an issue before. > > Overall all this frustration and complaining about a 7 year old mechanic that was never a massive issue till this post was made (to my knowledge, or at least i never saw it as one) is not worth all the finger pointing for what most people see as common gameplay with nothing wrong. It would be far better used trying to figure out how to balance out the few odd balls so that some risk is associated with blinks that do allow people to blink through obstructions or only allowing ground targeted blinks to go through obstructions if you can cover a target within the ground marker of the blink. Guardian has supportive skill similar to what I'm talking about where it will only blink you to the spot you mark on the ground if there is an friendly within its radius when you attempt to use the skill. > > EVEN if we do change how blinks work overall there are still going to likely be some spots where some things will work and others wont because the game is not perfect. > > This isn't something that's "never a massive issue till this post was made". People have always had issues found the ability to Steal and Infiltrator's Strike through walls preventing opponents from any capacity of knowing the enemy was coming all the way back since 2012. It's a topic now because in the current place for balance Condition Daredevil and Glint Shiro Herald are currently two of the most dominant builds and everyone is frequently on the receiving end of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > > **LOOK. AT. THE. SCREENS.** > > > > > > > > > > **They DO NOT SAY "NO VALID PATH".** > > > > > > > > > > I'm done with you. > > > > > > > > Go redo these in first person and see if you can select those areas and send me new examples. Otherwise be done with your non blinking self and deal with not being able to blink to spots your character literally cannot see. > > > > > > Someone attached rocket boots to the goal post once they got proven wrong: > > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > @"Zexanima.7851" said: > > > > > > > @"SeikeNz.3526" said: > > > > > > > what kind of balance is that? > > > > > > > like mesmers skills get interrupted if someone goes behind you or from your sides making you waste the skill and get killed, then you have other classes that can teleport behind walls and auto turn to atk? > > > > > > > > > > > > Just going to use thief as an example because it's what I know best and fits the bill. If you removed their ability to teleport/shadowstep you would have to compensate them for it or else they would just become..well...completely useless. If you buffed their damage they would just start nuking people from stealth which would be even more frustrating. If you buffed their raw defense they would be just be a low damage kitten warrior. Teleports are strong no doubt but I don't think they are placed on any profession which doesn't need them. If I **had** to argue against teleports the only one I personally have a grudge against in guardian but again, if they didn't have it, they would be so slow it would be a joke. > > > > > > > > > > It's not a question of "why do some classes need teleports". But rather "Why do targeted teleports get to ignore line of sight while ground targeted ones have to obey line of sight." > > > > > > > > Im not even sure this is a question even though the answer should be fairly obvious. > > > > > > > > Because its physically impossible via the laws of physics for you to select the ground behind an object as we live in a 3d world you can only ever see 2 or 3 planes at a time. > > > > > > You've gone from "It's impossible to even ground target behind line of sight" to "these are just normal ports you can never do these ports with any class or skill. No Line of Sight doesn't exist that's why all these screen shots say No Valid Path." to "Third person doesn't count." > > > > > > There's no justifiable reason for enemy targeted ports to ignore line of sight rules and teleport through walls and floors onto enemies they cannot see if ground targeted skills cannot do the same, they are just arbitrary rules . Either enemy targeted ports should be forced to have a Line of Sight requirement, or Ground Targeted port skills should lose their Line of Sight requirement. Because right now you have the same fundamental mechanic with an arbitrary split in the rules and requirements for no reason that heavily favors two professions that abuse their lessened requirements for advantages they should not have. > > > > Well clearly there are some differences yes both cases move a character from A to B the differince being is that one gives the player the option of where B is while the other B is determined by having or requiring a target to even get to that position. That alone makes them different at the end result even if the fundamental concept is the same. Lastly you assume that the later favors those professions in all situations which is not the case. As their mobility tools cannot be used at all without a target while ground targets can. Yet another difference that makes them not completely fundamentally the same at the end result. Even more so when it comes to the versatility of them being used for going all in or escaping a situation. > > > > Some would probably say ground targeted ports are better depending on the situation in which you would use them for and how you play vs a port that needs a target to function. > > > > > > > > Arenanet also clearly didn't expect teleporting through walls to be such a huge mechanic when they were designing the game because unless you either: A. Have a target called by another player you can take or B. Can see them through your 3rd party camera you can't tab target or click a target to use an enemy targeted no port anyway. So we're already looking at something semi-exploitative that people are getting around using the game's 3rd party camera. It's just the grounded targeted ones that can't do the same. > > > > Or they did they could have removed it from thief back when shadow return was instant and used to go back and forth through walls and other obstructions even while cced and they chose not to change it. On top of this they have added rev and given it a utility which allows them to teleport to a target and even mirage axe has this feature apparently to a lesser range. So to say they didnt expect these things is not likely the case. Even guardian has had the power to blink to a target but only a target for a long time and it was never an issue before. > > > > Overall all this frustration and complaining about a 7 year old mechanic that was never a massive issue till this post was made (to my knowledge, or at least i never saw it as one) is not worth all the finger pointing for what most people see as common gameplay with nothing wrong. It would be far better used trying to figure out how to balance out the few odd balls so that some risk is associated with blinks that do allow people to blink through obstructions or only allowing ground targeted blinks to go through obstructions if you can cover a target within the ground marker of the blink. Guardian has supportive skill similar to what I'm talking about where it will only blink you to the spot you mark on the ground if there is an friendly within its radius when you attempt to use the skill. > > > > EVEN if we do change how blinks work overall there are still going to likely be some spots where some things will work and others wont because the game is not perfect. > > > > > > This isn't something that's "never a massive issue till this post was made". People have always had issues found the ability to Steal and Infiltrator's Strike through walls preventing opponents from any capacity of knowing the enemy was coming all the way back since 2012. It's a topic now because in the current place for balance Condition Daredevil and Glint Shiro Herald are currently two of the most dominant builds and everyone is frequently on the receiving end of that. Well for starters i never heard any complaints about guardians targeted ports or revs to that much of an extent. The main one was always theif sword because its the only targeted port that lets them escape to safety while the others are all or nothing. Doing these changes wont stop those builds from being the some of the most dominate builds. They will still continue to be dominate because the ports are not the main issues behind what makes the builds dominate. Yes the ports are a small key feature of those builds. Fixing the targeted ports so that they cant get to an obstructed target will curb them down a little but hardly do anything to remove their dominance. On the other hand if you make it so ground targeted blinks can be used in a similar manner all that does is make some builds met the same issues you are calling the other "suspected professions" out for while giving higher advantages to even more professions overall vs those that dont have ground or targeted ports in general. Yes revs damage is way too high and no one will argue that with you. Yes condi thief is way too safe while doing its damage and no one will argue that with you. in the case of rev nuking their ports wont remove them from dominance in terms of strength because they can kill you without the port going through a wall or and obstruction if you are out in the open. They would still be pretty dominate and as I said their port literally does not work without a target and its all in when you use it. You cannot use it to escape or run once you use it go in unless you have another target you can select in the middle of combat. Even then you dont control where your landing point will be the target you selected does. In the case of thief which is the only odd ball in terms of targeted ports (mostly looking at the sword) as it is able enter combat through an obstruction as well as disengage through an obstruction which is where i think the issue is when you compare it to other targeted ports. Almost every other targeted port forces you to go all in when you use it and the thief sword is the only one that breaks this rule especially when used with obstructions in the way. This makes condi thief super safe and obnoxious and as I said no one is going to argue with you that its not a problem because it is when stacked ontop of condi theif. That said at a base level of the skill alone it still requires a target to work at all. What about guardian you didnt include them here with judges intervention or their Sword 2 despite them being strong. Even common firebrand builds do use the sword in their builds which allows for a lesser ranged targeted port, but once again this is not the issue as to why firebrand is so dominate. Those issues lie in firebrand itself. Its not the ports (in most of these cases) its other things and messing with the ports will have minimal impact on their dominance and effectiveness with maybe thief sword + condi thief build being the exception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 I'm catching up with the thread and I would like to mention the following. 1.) No Valid Path and No Line of Sight are different. Ports that use these checks each have different strengths. 2.) Mesmers are, for the most part, more sustainable than Thieves, and I'm assuming that is why thief ports are situationally more useful. 3.) If we are suggesting that blinks be made to work like shadowsteps, I'm fine with that, but Mes sustain needs to be looked at as well to balance their buffed ability to peace-out from any bad situation. 4.) Condi thief continues to be too strong and requires a nerf. 5.) Condi mirage continues to be too strong and requires a nerf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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