If you're going to outbid on the trading post, it should be by a minimum of 5%

[Neural.1824]

:thumbs down: (because that feature was removed).

 

The ability to outbid or undercut by 1 copper is fine as it is, and does not need to change. The market fluctuates a lot.

 

I get it, some people are trying to make an extra 50g by selling a precursor as opposed to selling to the highest bidder, but that is the downside of trying to sell a high value item. No matter what happens, you have a chance of getting underbid, and changing the minimum is not going to change the chance that it will happen.

[Llethander.3972]

This is a long-held complaint of mine. Being able to undercut someone by a single copper is silly. I honestly think that were we able to simply edit our sale prices without having to completely take the item down I'd be happy. As it is now we have to cancel our listing, go to a Trading Post NPC, retrieve our item, pay to relist our item, and run the risk of being undercut by a single copper again. Heck, even a mail-based notification to tell me that "Another player has posted at a lower value" so that I don't have to constantly monitor my sale would be nice.

 

I frequently undercut by 5g to entice sales only to find myself, within minutes, undercut by a single copper. It feels like the Trading Post is trolling me.

[Dashingsteel.3410]

The trading post is fine like it is now. Anytime you make a transaction that is not an instant buy or an instant sell you are taking a risk. Everyone is subject to being outbid or someone selling cheaper. You either take the risk or you don't. No need to change the bidding rules.

 

 

 

[Ensign.2189]

Oh fun, a tick rate thread!

 

*Any* market or exchange design usually wants to accomplish two opposing goals:

 

- Maximize price discovery

- Minimize transaction costs

 

That is, you want to get the price as accurate as possible without wasting people's time. The tick rate, or bid increment, is an important part of that - if the increment is too high, you lose the real price movements below the tick rate (which inhibits sales and lowers liquidity); if it is too low, outbids and undercuts aren't meaningful, raising transaction costs and lowering the efficiency of the price signal.

 

There is nothing magical about a copper, just as there's nothing magical about a penny - it's just a whole unit of account. A penny is the tick rate for most equities on the NYSE, for instance, but for low price (penny stocks) the tick rate is $0.0001 - a hundredth of a penny. In bond markets you don't bid in increments of 1 cent, but in fractions of a basis point - 1/32 of a percent of face value in US markets, 1/100 of a percent in Euro and Asian markets.

 

For a lot of items on the GW2 TP I agree with the OP that a 1 copper tick rate is too low, and inhibits the market - especially with the fixed 5% unrefundable listing fee in place. On the flip side, clearly there are also items where a 1 copper tick rate is too high - like the current mithril ore market.

 

It's tricky, which I imagine is why it is not addressed. A 2.5% tick rate would be appropriate for many exotic weapons and armor, for instance, but probably not for rare armors and weapons (many of which are being bought in bulk to be salvaged for ectos). Basically, the higher the transaction rate on a given item, the lower the tick rate should be - which is tricky when you have both high and low volume items in the same class.

 

There's some under the hood, dynamic tick rate calculations you can do to maximize efficacy of your market; how people would respond to that, when the bid increment is inconsistent across items for reasons that aren't obvious, is less clear.

 

tl;dr - OP is right that the bid increment is a problem. Unfortunately better solutions are hard.

[Dashingsteel.3410]

You win some. You lose some. If you can't handle that, don't play the market. There shouldn't be any "buffer zone" or safe zone between your bid and another bid if you are trying to speculate.

[Wintermute.5408]

You want quick money - you hit quick sell. You want quick mats - you hit quick buy. Want to save or get some extra money? Welcome to the undercutting games. You'll get the thing you want in a few hours.

[Vyrulisse.1246]

Not everyone who increases a bid by one Copper or something similarly small are doing it out of spite. A lot of people genuinely want an item but don't want to pay too much more than what the average offer tends to be. It's a fair practice and yeah it sucks sometimes but that's how I imagine most people who do that are. Sure some people just want to be jerks but it's very few.

 

Besides, if you place a sell order or a buy order at your limit then eventually you'll get what you want. Sometimes it just takes patience.

[Zaraki.5784]

That's a problem only for you OP, deal with it. I like tp as it is now, so my vote goes to "leave it as it is".

[Shafi.8952]

If you want to out bid other people by 5%. Go outbid other people by 5%.

 

If you want everyone to sell their items at your price or higher. Buy out any item that falls below that price you want.

 

If you lose money or time doing this, you have nothing to complain about because its the same for others.

[Llethander.3972]

Some responses I see just make me roll my eyes.

 

> @Ensign.2189 said:

> Oh fun, a tick rate thread!

>

> *Any* market or exchange design usually wants to accomplish two opposing goals:

>

> - Maximize price discovery

> - Minimize transaction costs

>

> That is, you want to get the price as accurate as possible without wasting people's time. The tick rate, or bid increment, is an important part of that - if the increment is too high, you lose the real price movements below the tick rate (which inhibits sales and lowers liquidity); if it is too low, outbids and undercuts aren't meaningful, raising transaction costs and lowering the efficiency of the price signal.

>

> There is nothing magical about a copper, just as there's nothing magical about a penny - it's just a whole unit of account. A penny is the tick rate for most equities on the NYSE, for instance, but for low price (penny stocks) the tick rate is $0.0001 - a hundredth of a penny. In bond markets you don't bid in increments of 1 cent, but in fractions of a basis point - 1/32 of a percent of face value in US markets, 1/100 of a percent in Euro and Asian markets.

>

> For a lot of items on the GW2 TP I agree with the OP that a 1 copper tick rate is too low, and inhibits the market - especially with the fixed 5% unrefundable listing fee in place. On the flip side, clearly there are also items where a 1 copper tick rate is too high - like the current mithril ore market.

>

> It's tricky, which I imagine is why it is not addressed. A 2.5% tick rate would be appropriate for many exotic weapons and armor, for instance, but probably not for rare armors and weapons (many of which are being bought in bulk to be salvaged for ectos). Basically, the higher the transaction rate on a given item, the lower the tick rate should be - which is tricky when you have both high and low volume items in the same class.

>

> There's some under the hood, dynamic tick rate calculations you can do to maximize efficacy of your market; how people would respond to that, when the bid increment is inconsistent across items for reasons that aren't obvious, is less clear.

>

> tl;dr - OP is right that the bid increment is a problem. Unfortunately better solutions are hard.

 

This exactly. For low value items being able to post a lower price by increments of one copper makes sense. For high-value items, however, one copper is a silly amount especially with the flat tax rate paid for listing.

 

A 5s listing undercut by 1c is fine. 5% of your listing price isn't going to break the bank.

 

A 500g listing undercut by 1c is infuriating. 1c does not change the market value of the item by a significant margin even over an extended period of time, thus ensuring that expensive items remain expensive. When you consider that just to list that item you are required to pay a non-refundable 25g and other users can, and usually do, come along and undercut you by 1c, even if your 500g listing is undercutting the player above by 75g already, then just to re-list the item you need to shell out a further 25g.

 

If one could CoD items through the mail then, at the very least, there would be an alternative to selling via the Trading Post and players who would rather take the time to manually sell their items and circumvent the Listing Fees, Exchange Fees, and chance that other players could undercut their listing by 1c then I would agree that this argument is silly. The fact that we are unable to CoD, and player-to-player trades are not a thing in GW2, means that the only safe way to sell items is using the Trading Post thus forcing players to suck it up and deal.

[Game of Bones.8975]

Ever look at a silent auction sheet? Some times people hover over an item and bid +$0.01 (One penny) over the last bit just to swipe it.

 

[Llethander.3972]

> @"Game of Bones.8975" said:

> Ever look at a silent auction sheet? Some times people hover over an item and bid +$0.01 (One penny) over the last bit just to swipe it.

>

 

That would be relevant if the Trading Post were an auction system. It would also be (somewhat) relevant to the discussion if those bidding in an auction had to pay to place their bid every time they wanted to change it similarly to how the Listing Fee works in GW2. It's not and they don't.

[Ashen.2907]

> @Mercury.9784 said:

> > @Coulter.2315 said:

> > Prices would skyrocket, bad idea. The reason real world auction houses do this is because they make a commission on the sale, the BLTC's profit margin should not be our primary concern.

D>

> I don't think you understand my suggestion if you think it would make prices skyrocket.

>

> Also my primary concern is people being able to drop into the interface without knowing much about it, place an order, and receive their item, without having to struggle with outbidding people, or worse, to not be aware of the problem and simply become frustrated at how orders never seem to execute.

 

They already can just drop in and get their item without fuss, knowing much, etc. Just buy now if they dont want to engage in market gameplay.

[kharmin.7683]

> @Mercury.9784 said:

> > @UnbentMars.9126 said:

> > Oh no! Someone offered/accepted a better deal than what I gave! What am I to do but demand the system be changed so that I either win in all circumstances or the people I am competing against be controlled even though I am engaging in the same behavior as they are!

>

> I'm not demanding anything. I'm pointing out a problem. Nobody in this thread, so far, has disagreed that it's a problem. They've just told me to stop crying about it, and (audaciously!) that it's not meant to be fun and I shouldn't expect it to be fun.

>

> I look forward to hearing from a dev.

 

It's not a problem.

 

What I really love about GW2 is that there are so many different things to do for so many different interests. I am a very casual player, so raids, fractals and such don't interest me; however, they really interest those who are into those things. Crafting? I just realized that in order to get the specialized weapons in PoF, I need to craft one of the components. I abhor crafting, so I will never be able to obtain these items. There are those who love crafting and probably spend the majority of their time in GW2 doing just that. The same thing goes for the market. I'm certain that there are those who enjoy the action that buying/trading/selling in the market gives them.

 

It seems to me that you are advocating changing one facet of the game which may well be fun for others. This would be like me asking for crafting to be made much easier for me which would affect those who already enjoy that portion of the game the way it is now.

 

In my opinion, you need to change your mind-set about the market and deal with it's current iteration.

[stone cold.8609]

I don't see a problem with how things are now. When buying or selling, you set your own price. There is nothing wrong IMO of someone deciding to undercut or overbid your price by 1 copper, just like there is nothing wrong with you doing that to someone as well. If you want something in a hurry, pay the buy it now price. If you want to sell in a hurry, take the current highest offer. If you want to try to get the best price, then you are going to have to wait and monitor your bids with the understanding that for popular items there are likely many people doing the same thing. Which means, there will be a lot of 1 copper bidding back and forth until the price settles out. In this situation, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose, but it is entirely your choice to go this route. I honestly don't see any trolling here, just people using the market as intended. Instituting a mandatory bid amount wouldn't change this behavior at all and I am not in favor of it.

[Game of Bones.8975]

> @Llethander.3972 said:

> > @"Game of Bones.8975" said:

> > Ever look at a silent auction sheet? Some times people hover over an item and bid +$0.01 (One penny) over the last bit just to swipe it.

> >

>

> That would be relevant if the Trading Post were an auction system. It would also be (somewhat) relevant to the discussion if those bidding in an auction had to pay to place their bid every time they wanted to change it similarly to how the Listing Fee works in GW2. It's not and they don't.

 

The point I was making is that what is being talked about is not unique, it happens all over the place in the real world. People snipe bids at the last minute or bid in such small increments it can be frustrating.

[Menadena.7482]

> @Mercury.9784 said:

> I keep getting into wars over individual pennies with other trading post users. It's not fun, but it's necessary if you expect to execute a trade on anything that has low trade volume. I understand letting people outbid each other, but you should have to do it by a minimum of a certain percentage, say between 1% and 5%, because then it indicates that you're genuinely interested in paying more or accepting less, and you're not just trying to screw up other users and trade for effectively the same price.

>

> I've been playing since launch and love your game. Please keep up the good work.

 

So, basically your idea to change the market is to make it LESS free? What problem are you trying to solve anyway? If you have a strategy that you think is good use it, do not force other people to.

[Menadena.7482]

> @Mercury.9784 said:

> > @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> > You seem to believe it's the same person or persons outbidding you. There are thousands, tens of thousands of players using the Trading Posts. I'm sure many, such as myself, bid by one copper. Thus, bid prices will change. If you are that worried, that you will take down bids over such a small amount, maybe the Trading Post isn't for you?

>

> In some cases that is the situation in my experience. I've bid on an unusual item and gotten outbid for a penny for 20 orders, and then I would do the same for my order, and then get outbid by exactly 20 orders again, etc. For high-volume items you're right, of course, but for low volume items (which is what you expect from higher ticket items where the percentage will matter) it can easily be a bidding war between individuals.

>

> I would have been happy to simply wait in a queue behind the top bidder, but I feel compelled by the design of the system to play dirty just like everyone else.

>

> I feel especially bad for people who don't know that there are shark bidders lying in wait and checking every one of their orders in order to increase by a penny, because they may have no idea why their particular trades never execute.

 

What the kitten are you selling that it is such a problem? The market is not a daytrader thing. If people play the pennies game on me I just sit tight, typically the market for whatever will rebound to my asking price in a few days. If something has sat out there for, oh, half a year, I might get interested and see if I should relist it but if you are relisting every time something does not sell in 24 hours you are losing money and have nobody to blame but yourself.

 

BTW, the default price when you list something is what will sell IMMEDIATELY. If you are listing it higher you are the one taking a risk.

[Nihevil.8024]

naw my dude

[Menadena.7482]

> @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

> > @Mercury.9784 said:

> > > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

> > > >I keep getting into wars over individual pennies with other trading post user

> > >

> > > And I don’t. I post it then I leave it. Eventually it will sell for the price I posted it for, usually within a few days. If it never sells (weeks to momths) then obviously I posted too high. Don’t be getting into trade wars. Give it time to sell.

> >

> > Yeah. That's fine for high-volume items.

> >

> > Although it seems you're referring to selling, which has a built in protection of a listing fee. Can't fight over pennies then. But buy orders don't have that protection. People are free to fight over pennies. I brought up an analogy earlier that I still think fits well. If this behavior happened in a real action house, where you would occasionally get a small number of people outbidding by one penny for hours, they would swiftly implement a 'minimum increased bid' rule. I think Guild Wars 2 should have something like that, too.

>

> /shrug. I do that with buy orders also. There’s not many items that you just have to have immediately. Post a bid, and give it a day. If it hasn’t gone through in a day or two then repost. At that point if it’s really the wrong price then it will be more than a few copper and your wish to have a higher minimum overbid will be met. It’s just like real life you know. You put your bid out and wait. Being impatient only costs you money

 

Same here. If it is something I need immediately and/or it has a low cost I will just pay the asking price. Otherwise I just lower my bid from the asking price and not worry about it unless it is taking WAY too long for someone to bite (which usually means low volume).

[Ameepa.6793]

TP is good as it is and you can already freely outbid by 5% if you want to.

[danielrjones.8759]

Your suggestion is really no different than saying when selling something if you wish to sell for less than the highest item listed you must sell for a minimum of 5% less. If you don't want to match someone else selling price don't. Your buying selling habits should not dictate to others what they can or cannot do.

 

[Neural.1824]

> @Llethander.3972 said:

> A 500g listing undercut by 1c is infuriating.

 

No, it's not. The "infuriating" part only stems from either impatience, or the frequency that the given item is traded.

 

If Ectoplasm was 500g a piece but maintaining the same rate of trade etc., an undercut of one copper would be of no consequence at all.

Stop placing the blame on the undercutting mechanic.

 

 

[Ensign.2189]

> @"Game of Bones.8975" said:

 

> The point I was making is that what is being talked about is not unique, it happens all over the place in the real world. People snipe bids at the last minute or bid in such small increments it can be frustrating.

 

You're correct, there are lots of badly run auctions in the real world too! In fact, you can find a lot of examples of people doing all manner of things badly.

 

You can also find examples of people doing things well. No reputable auction house or auctioneer would commit the mistakes you mention, especially since there are solutions that are so simple.

 

Doing something badly is common does not make it any less bad, and is not a particularly good reason to reject a suggestion to do a better job, in my view. It may not be a high priority, but there is room for substantial improvement with regards to tick side on the trading post, and it's worthwhile to say so (and explain why).

[Daddicus.6128]

> @Mercury.9784 said:

> > @UnbentMars.9126 said:

> > Oh no! Someone offered/accepted a better deal than what I gave! What am I to do but demand the system be changed so that I either win in all circumstances or the people I am competing against be controlled even though I am engaging in the same behavior as they are!

>

> I'm not demanding anything. I'm pointing out a problem. Nobody in this thread, so far, has disagreed that it's a problem. They've just told me to stop crying about it, and (audaciously!) that it's not meant to be fun and I shouldn't expect it to be fun.

>

> I look forward to hearing from a dev.

 

It's not a problem. There. Now I have.

 

If you're selling a low-demand object, then split the difference or something. If the highest current buyer is 1g and the lowest seller is 2g, don't try to sell for 1g 99s 99c. Sell it for 1g 50s.

 

Oh, and patience is an outstanding virtue to have when playing the markets. Unless something fundamental changes the supply or demand curve, the price will eventually get back up to your price.

 

In 5+ years of trading, I've had maybe 10-15 items that I had to take down and repost. Millions of items bought and sold. But, I don't let a month delay in getting my money bother me. (Unless there has been a fundamental change, like the demand is changed by the addition of some new crafting item.)