BIGGEST nerf is CAST TIME on fear

[Flumek.9043]

Theyre adding a cast time.

Core fear is like STEAL to thiefs.

 

A heavy 0.65s cast time for a lousy 1s fear.

 

The only problem was the fear duration trait which is gettin nerfed.

The lifeforce regen is kinda must for minimal sustain + our abilities over years have become TRASH , its uterlly uselss to try to build lifeforce, only 100% safe abilities and downed bodies give encro lifeforce.

A perma blinded, CC, evaded necro has 0% lifeforce and it has been so since start.

 

Well be worst class in high tier.

Medium in mid tiers.

Already the necro meta has gone from landing damage, to just surving and hiping your teammates do more.

 

Balance is great move, proud of ANET and CMC dserves 100x salaries bonus.

Just necro IS NOT gonna be PLAYING GW2.

Itll be punchbag meta over skillful interupts, landing reliable combos, and all big dmg play will relly on enemy mistakes first.

[Anchoku.8142]

They are extending fear duration a little. Stab and stun breaks are trimmed globally so it may be too early to make conclusions.

[Flumek.9043]

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> They are extending fear duration a little. Stab and stun breaks are trimmed globally so it may be too early to make conclusions.

 

I think it breaks ALL the combos, offensive or defense.

The broken part was fear duration trait and im happy its gone.

 

Instead of reactive skill,

it will become another part of spam&pray rotation.

 

Mentally its like being a DPS golem, all your attack are telegraphed and enemy has 100% chance to counter them. You however cant intentionally counter anything, youre just making predicitons.

[Anchoku.8142]

> @"Flumek.9043" said:

> > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > They are extending fear duration a little. Stab and stun breaks are trimmed globally so it may be too early to make conclusions.

>

> I think it breaks ALL the combos, offensive or defense.

> The broken part was fear duration trait and im happy its gone.

>

> Instead of reactive skill,

> it will become another part of spam&pray rotation.

>

> Mentally its like being a DPS golem, all your attack are telegraphed and enemy has 100% chance to counter them. You however cant intentionally counter anything, youre just making predicitons.

 

Well, my preference has always been for more, short, active use fears than long duration ones.

[Dadnir.5038]

Well, _Doom_ will be 2 seconds minimum and 3 seconds with the trait in sPvP/WvW. If anything the duration is buffed.

Now, core only recently came back on the "viable" list of possible changes, so while the new cast time will surely hurt a bit, it's not as big of a nerf as you put it. It's just one change among a lot of similar changes that reduce the pace of the gameplay. The point is that it is not a slow moving useless projectile that can be side steped, if anything it will be a better tool to bait a dodge.

[Mabon.8756]

Casts times just doesn't seem to fit a profession that is suppose to soak up damage. No stability, no mobility, and cast times... Maybe I'm just new but something seems to be missing...

[Flumek.9043]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> Well, _Doom_ will be 2 seconds minimum and 3 seconds with the trait in sPvP/WvW. If anything the duration is buffed.

> Now, core only recently came back on the "viable" list of possible changes, so while the new cast time will surely hurt a bit, it's not as big of a nerf as you put it. It's just one change among a lot of similar changes that reduce the pace of the gameplay. The point is that it is not a slow moving useless projectile that can be side steped, if anything it will be a better tool to bait a dodge.

 

1) Im not talking about balance.

Im talking about the gameplay. Is it fun, skillfull, fair?

 

So my point is I loved gw2 till 2015. INTENTIONALLY and REACTIVELY interupting heals was fun. Using instant ports midcast on someone was fun, but not fair so it had to be limited. Right now were seeing this go away, only distortion remains, and im neutral luke warm about ele losing obsidian flesh casting.

The instant fear is the biggest muscle memory I have in this game.

I liked it because it was the only insant reliable skill on necro. I prefered its use as a heal/leap interupt, range tool, meme fearing off ledge, rezz stomp interupt.... It being used as a too long stunlock is what annoyed poeple.

Im very scared about having a further unfun gameplay experience with necro, ill get CCed and blinded to death. Everytime im using a skill in scared of RNG missing - meaning the only way to play is always spam rather than using a combo for specific situation.

 

2) The fear is not buffed its EXACTLY same.

Every pvp necro but Hollts uses the fear trait, which gives you same 2s and 3s durations.

A hefty 650ms cast + poeple using stunbreaks means you dont see the 3rd second anyway unless you already won.

Balance wise its a nerf.

Gameplay wise it removes options and makes everyone play same 123 rotation.

 

TLDR

I dont care for necro being best in meta, especially being a dps carry who needs hard pocketing.

I prefer having option of B-tier duelist build, thats fun and has 50/50 matchups across board.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Mabon.8756" said:

> Casts times just doesn't seem to fit a profession that is suppose to soak up damage.

 

How is being able to soak up dmg directly connected to no cast times?

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Flumek.9043" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > Well, _Doom_ will be 2 seconds minimum and 3 seconds with the trait in sPvP/WvW. If anything the duration is buffed.

> > Now, core only recently came back on the "viable" list of possible changes, so while the new cast time will surely hurt a bit, it's not as big of a nerf as you put it. It's just one change among a lot of similar changes that reduce the pace of the gameplay. The point is that it is not a slow moving useless projectile that can be side steped, if anything it will be a better tool to bait a dodge.

>

> 1) Im not talking about balance.

> Im talking about the gameplay. Is it fun, skillfull, fair?

>

> So my point is I loved gw2 till 2015. INTENTIONALLY and REACTIVELY interupting heals was fun. Using instant ports midcast on someone was fun, but not fair so it had to be limited. Right now were seeing this go away, only distortion remains, and im neutral luke warm about ele losing obsidian flesh casting.

> The instant fear is the biggest muscle memory I have in this game.

> I liked it because it was the only insant reliable skill on necro. I prefered its use as a heal/leap interupt, range tool, meme fearing off ledge, rezz stomp interupt.... It being used as a too long stunlock is what annoyed poeple.

> Im very scared about having a further unfun gameplay experience with necro, ill get CCed and blinded to death. Everytime im using a skill in scared of RNG missing - meaning the only way to play is always spam rather than using a combo for specific situation.

 

You're talking about fun, skillfull and fair gameplay, but you're complaining about not being able to abuse insta-fear to throw people off the ledges as 0,64sec is too long of a cast time?

 

Seriously, I'm not sure how anyone is supposed to be able to reliably judge how all these changes will impact the game, but if you're ready to spam that all hope is lost then good for you, I guess. I'll wait with my judgement for when it hits the servers and we actually have time to play with these changes in place.

[Sigmoid.7082]

> @"Flumek.9043" said:

> 2) The fear is not buffed its EXACTLY same.

> Every pvp necro but Hollts uses the fear trait, which gives you same 2s and 3s durations.

> A hefty 650ms cast + poeple using stunbreaks means you dont see the 3rd second anyway unless you already won.

> Balance wise its a nerf.

> Gameplay wise it removes options and makes everyone play same 123 rotation.

 

Technically speaking almost all stunbreaks are on longer cooldowns/have been removed, condi cleanse on certain classes has gone down, and stab is rarer. This makes fear stronger. Also the duration is only the same within the range threshold. Outside of it its a straight buff to how long the fear lasts. Also any additional condition duration you can get will further push this past where it was. You may think it was fun to use and all but the instant CC was **not ** fun to play against. Especially when you can trait it for damage.

 

>Gameplay wise it removes options and makes everyone play same 123 rotation.

I think its the opposite. Since cooldowns are longer , things have cast times , boons / cleanse are rarer and shorter, and damage is lower..people will have to think more about their choices instead of playing "the same 123 rotation"

[Mabon.8756]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"Mabon.8756" said:

> > Casts times just doesn't seem to fit a profession that is suppose to soak up damage.

>

> How is being able to soak up dmg directly connected to no cast times?

 

Not directly, but indirectly. Necro's main defense is their ability to play the sponge but then they don't have the tools to perform while being constantly bombarded. Incredibly tanky indeed, but with no stability, low mobility, and getting additional and increased cast times creates an odd feeling of a stuttering bouncy ball in any competitive play. Like I said I'm new but with all the built in interrupts, stuns, and cc that classes have I'd just like to get a Ghastly Claw, Life Siphon, and/or Life Transfer off somewhat regularly. We can't set up from stealth , evade during, or stab into our burst. We just kinda... hope?

[Shroud.2307]

I was afraid this would happen, and if I recall there was a discussion about it a few months before the announcement of the February patch.

 

If it can be stow cancelled in Shroud and there's a visual tell of some sort, then I'll be okay with it. If it cannot be cancelled, I won't be so happy. I think giving CC's cast times and making CC's strictly for utility purposes by removing damaging effects from them is a good decision. But I also think in certain cases those rules should be excused. Executioner's Scythe being one of those examples - it has a massive cast time, very clear tell, long cooldown and is a single target skill. Reducing the damage on it, even if the CC duration was increased, seems like a poor decision to me, but I digress...

 

I'm skeptical right now, and trying to contain my frustration for how much I hated the idea long before it became a reality... But depending on how it's implemented, it could be nice change for higher end game play. I just hope my beloved Dreadmancer build can still function having the damage of Dread halved and Doom getting a cast time.

[Anchoku.8142]

I am conflicted by the coming change, too.

 

On the hand, all control effects should have a cast time but, on the other hand, Fear is also a condition that can be cleared without using a stun break.

 

If passive condi mitigation was removed from the game so players had to burn a skill to remove Fear, then the change could be fine.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> If passive condi mitigation was removed from the game so players had to burn a skill to remove Fear, then the change could be fine.

 

Did you see the changes on passive defensive traits or are you just interested in complaining for the sake of complaining?

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> I am conflicted by the coming change, too.

>

> On the hand, all control effects should have a cast time but, on the other hand, Fear is also a condition that can be cleared without using a stun break.

>

> If passive condi mitigation was removed from the game so players had to burn a skill to remove Fear, then the change could be fine.

 

I won't say that all control effects necessarily need a cast time, but any with a duration of >1second certainly do. There's certainly a healthy space in the game for an instant-cast 1/2 second daze or stun, for example. Not enough to unload a combo into, but enough to interrupt key actions and give a little bit longer to react.

[Anchoku.8142]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > I am conflicted by the coming change, too.

> >

> > On the hand, all control effects should have a cast time but, on the other hand, Fear is also a condition that can be cleared without using a stun break.

> >

> > If passive condi mitigation was removed from the game so players had to burn a skill to remove Fear, then the change could be fine.

>

> I won't say that all control effects necessarily need a cast time, but any with a duration of >1second certainly do. There's certainly a healthy space in the game for an instant-cast 1/2 second daze or stun, for example. Not enough to unload a combo into, but enough to interrupt key actions and give a little bit longer to react.

 

True; a pure interrupt should have less cost than an interrupt with a disable long enough to take advantage of. Long Fears are troublesome particularly because the Fear forces the target to disengage and run away from the caster. Gap-closing capability becomes a limiting factor for Necro's.

[Emapudapus.1307]

If anything, they should keep no casting time and maybe little less fear durration (also based on how close to target are you-supper short on far away targets). Insta fear was skillfull and active gameplay, while you couldnt spam it, was only instant thing necromancer has (beside spite trait on shoud enter) and only use it in shroud, you could still time it perfectly to interupt spells and fend off attackers. Which, as power core necro, fear was used mostly to interupt or fend off melee preasure (instant teleports are HUGE problems and out of stealth attacks).

For condi necro balance you could even change trait fear deals dmg but also gives casting time to doom and increase its durration.

 

[KrHome.1920]

ANet:

 

_Counterplay is important. Skills that have a major impact on an enemy player should allow that player the opportunity to react, which means that we want to avoid instant skills that do large amounts of damage or hard cc._

 

The interrupt argument seems legit, but this seems not to be the purpose of the skill, because anet added a cast time and improved the effect (duration: 2s baseline, 3s traited). So the skill is meant to be a setup skill, that can be dodged and not a counter/interrupt skill.

 

Personally I would use the skill right before leaving shroud now to continue with a staff bomb or fear chain. If for whatever reason you want to play power core then this fear is good to setup shroud 5 and 4 (in that order).

[Shroud.2307]

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> ANet:

>

> _Counterplay is important. Skills that have a major impact on an enemy player should allow that player the opportunity to react, which means that we want to avoid instant skills that do large amounts of damage or hard cc._

>

> The interrupt argument seems legit, but this seems not to be the purpose of the skill, because anet added a cast time and improved the effect (duration: 2s baseline, 3s traited). So the skill is meant to be a setup skill, that can be dodged and not a counter/interrupt skill.

>

> Personally I would use the skill right before leaving shroud now to continue with a staff bomb or fear chain. If for whatever reason you want to play power core then this fear is good to setup shroud 5 and 4 (in that order).

 

I often play core power "Dreadmancer" which uses Fear of Death and Dread. I also use Rending and Absorption sigils to get greater benefit from my Fear interrupts via corrupts ( Unholy Feast, Spiteful Spirit, Path Of Corruption ), Spectral Ring, Reaper's Mark and Doom.

 

I most often use Doom just before Life Blast connects with my target to reduce the possibility of it being cleansed or stun broken so I can get the full benefit of the damage increase from Dread. Striking a Feared target with Life Blast can go any where between 6 and 12k depending on the targets armor. A full Ghastly Claws on a Feared target can go up to 20k. Various other skills can do some pretty insane damage as well. The only time I can get this benefit without a cast time is on Doom, though. All others require a set up or cast time.

 

I don't think adding a cast time to Doom will ruin the build, but I do think it will make it harder to play. Though I agree with ANet's perspective on counterplay, I also think there should be exceptions as I'd said previously. Doom doesn't do damage anyway. I think all it needs is a visual even if it's still instant, sometimes that's all you need to react a little faster on breaking the stun or cleansing.

 

 

[Lily.1935]

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> They are extending fear duration a little. Stab and stun breaks are trimmed globally so it may be too early to make conclusions.

 

All we have to look at is the early years of GW2 to determine just how well this will work for necromancer. They were a punching bag in the early years and it was joked that they were a pin ball. The stun breaks were not nearly as strong as they are now back then too, foot in the grave wasn't a thing and necromancer was literally the laughing stock of the meta. Will it be as bad? Probably not. However the necromancer had poor defensive tools against CC before even with no cast time doom and now that they don't have that they'll have little to no real means of fighting the hard CCs that will be coming there way.

 

Now my opinion would change if anet gave the necromancer utility skills while in shroud, but that doesn't seem to be happening.

[Flumek.9043]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"Flumek.9043" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > Well, _Doom_ will be 2 seconds minimum and 3 seconds with the trait in sPvP/WvW. If anything the duration is buffed.

> > > Now, core only recently came back on the "viable" list of possible changes, so while the new cast time will surely hurt a bit, it's not as big of a nerf as you put it. It's just one change among a lot of similar changes that reduce the pace of the gameplay. The point is that it is not a slow moving useless projectile that can be side steped, if anything it will be a better tool to bait a dodge.

> >

> > 1) Im not talking about balance.

> > Im talking about the gameplay. Is it fun, skillfull, fair?

> >

> > So my point is I loved gw2 till 2015. INTENTIONALLY and REACTIVELY interupting heals was fun. Using instant ports midcast on someone was fun, but not fair so it had to be limited. Right now were seeing this go away, only distortion remains, and im neutral luke warm about ele losing obsidian flesh casting.

> > The instant fear is the biggest muscle memory I have in this game.

> > I liked it because it was the only insant reliable skill on necro. I prefered its use as a heal/leap interupt, range tool, meme fearing off ledge, rezz stomp interupt.... It being used as a too long stunlock is what annoyed poeple.

> > Im very scared about having a further unfun gameplay experience with necro, ill get CCed and blinded to death. Everytime im using a skill in scared of RNG missing - meaning the only way to play is always spam rather than using a combo for specific situation.

>

> You're talking about fun, skillfull and fair gameplay, but you're complaining about not being able to abuse insta-fear to throw people off the ledges as 0,64sec is too long of a cast time?

>

> Seriously, I'm not sure how anyone is supposed to be able to reliably judge how all these changes will impact the game, but if you're ready to spam that all hope is lost then good for you, I guess. I'll wait with my judgement for when it hits the servers and we actually have time to play with these changes in place.

 

sry for late reply...

 

YES,

i want skillfull play AND the instant cast. ill explain very shortly

 

1) like other have already pointed out, it wouldnt be a balance problem.

Pretty much everyone else has better and faster skills, necro only has this 1. And I dont wanna remove all instant cast play, just feels stupiud that slow necro loses only 1 while others keep 4-5 juicier ones.

 

2) For FUN design, SOME BROKEN overpowered stuff is actually good.

It needs to however be kept small and equal across board.

The main point is creating options in combat. If you have ultra slow skills, you are almost playing a turn based game.

SSB Melee is a crazy competitive fighter game esport, yet it was created as a casual party game, and only 7/20 characters are ever played, and the game is literally played BROKEN..... and poeple ENJOY that stuff.

Good game design is not creating a perfectly balanced game like rock paper scissor isnt really 1000 hours of fun.

 

I have no problem with instant cast steal, used to midcast a pistol whip.

I have no prolem with mesmer stealth + blink + gs2 + instant stun + instant f1 spike.... when its risky and is a heave commitment.

For necro the isntant shroud + fear combo is THE ONLY reliable heal interupt + like others said I want it to be more of a short interupt or ledge push for position, rather than a long stunlock that does dmg cz our weapons are so bad we need the extra oomph....

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Flumek.9043" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > @"Flumek.9043" said:

> > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > Well, _Doom_ will be 2 seconds minimum and 3 seconds with the trait in sPvP/WvW. If anything the duration is buffed.

> > > > Now, core only recently came back on the "viable" list of possible changes, so while the new cast time will surely hurt a bit, it's not as big of a nerf as you put it. It's just one change among a lot of similar changes that reduce the pace of the gameplay. The point is that it is not a slow moving useless projectile that can be side steped, if anything it will be a better tool to bait a dodge.

> > >

> > > 1) Im not talking about balance.

> > > Im talking about the gameplay. Is it fun, skillfull, fair?

> > >

> > > So my point is I loved gw2 till 2015. INTENTIONALLY and REACTIVELY interupting heals was fun. Using instant ports midcast on someone was fun, but not fair so it had to be limited. Right now were seeing this go away, only distortion remains, and im neutral luke warm about ele losing obsidian flesh casting.

> > > The instant fear is the biggest muscle memory I have in this game.

> > > I liked it because it was the only insant reliable skill on necro. I prefered its use as a heal/leap interupt, range tool, meme fearing off ledge, rezz stomp interupt.... It being used as a too long stunlock is what annoyed poeple.

> > > Im very scared about having a further unfun gameplay experience with necro, ill get CCed and blinded to death. Everytime im using a skill in scared of RNG missing - meaning the only way to play is always spam rather than using a combo for specific situation.

> >

> > You're talking about fun, skillfull and fair gameplay, but you're complaining about not being able to abuse insta-fear to throw people off the ledges as 0,64sec is too long of a cast time?

> >

> > Seriously, I'm not sure how anyone is supposed to be able to reliably judge how all these changes will impact the game, but if you're ready to spam that all hope is lost then good for you, I guess. I'll wait with my judgement for when it hits the servers and we actually have time to play with these changes in place.

>

> sry for late reply...

>

> YES,

> i want skillfull play AND the instant cast. ill explain very shortly

 

There is nothing skillfull about this instant fear. It's pretty weird that you're complaining about a 0.6s cast time as if it suddenly made it terrible.

 

> 1) like other have already pointed out, it wouldnt be a balance problem.

 

?

 

> 2) For FUN design, SOME BROKEN overpowered stuff is actually good.

 

For one sided fun, sure. :D

 

> The main point is creating options in combat. If you have ultra slow skills, you are almost playing a turn based game.

 

"ultra slow skill, almost a turn based game" about a 0,6s cast time long range/duration hard cc skill. That's how you'll make your arguments against this nerf? uh, ok.

 

> SSB Melee is a crazy competitive fighter game esport, yet it was created as a casual party game, and only 7/20 characters are ever played, and the game is literally played BROKEN..... and poeple ENJOY that stuff.

> Good game design is not creating a perfectly balanced game like rock paper scissor isnt really 1000 hours of fun.

 

You do understand that it's a completely different game, right? And as much as I don't play it, so correct me if I'm wrong, it's literally a 1v1 game in which you pick "1 out of x characters" and your argument is that making **7 out of 20 characters usable** is somehow **good for the game**? Maybe in a 1v1 fighter type game (or, hell, even mobas), but not an mmorpg. The setup for these games is just different.

SSB "being competitive" also means next to nothing seeing as literally almost anything can be "competitive", be it "rock paper scissors", hottog eating contest or... well, just think about something and it can be made competitive.

Nobody talks about "perfect balance" here. If anything, I semi-regularly mention I'm not talking about "perfect balance" (because it's unachievable in a game like this) whenever I say about something being balanced or not.

 

> I have no problem with instant cast steal, used to midcast a pistol whip.

 

Well, why would you, the stun on this thing is more of an interrupt than a stun and the caster has 12k hp, necro has 40.

 

> I have no prolem with mesmer stealth + blink + gs2 + instant stun + instant f1 spike.... when its risky and is a heave commitment.

 

Yup, true. Now, how is insta casting doom "risky" or "a heavy commitment"?

 

> For necro the isntant shroud + fear combo is THE ONLY reliable heal interupt + like others said I want it to be more of a short interupt or ledge push for position, rather than a long stunlock that does dmg cz our weapons are so bad we need the extra oomph....

 

Ok. Apparently that's not what anet wants it to be, though. If we pretent that giving it a 0.6s cast time makes it unusable in those situations.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> There is nothing skillfull about this instant fear.

 

Let's take this out of context and just ask: "What is skillfull by your definition?"

 

From my point of view a skill isn't skillfull, the way a skill is used can be skillfull or not. I can see value in a skillfully used instant fear skill.

 

After all, to properly use _doom_ (instant or not) you first have to mind your position, whether or not your foe have boons that can counter it's effect (stability, aegis and/or resistance), evaluate through observation whether or not your foe will be able to cleanse itself via an instant cleanse skill or a stunbreak and know whether it's the proper time tu use it for either defense or offense (I mean, it's a strategic skill gated behind the shroud, which can also be on an inconvenient CD and low LF). Remember that _doom_ itself just do token damage to the target on top of the fear.

 

Objectively, the cast time added will mainly remove a counter to hard CC from the necromancer's kit. Because the real value of an instant skill is that you can use it through a stun. I believe it's skillfull to use such a skill to prevent a player from hitting my toon when my toon is under the effect of a CC. You're welcome to try to change my mind.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > There is nothing skillfull about this instant fear.

> Objectively, the cast time added will mainly remove a counter to hard CC from the necromancer's kit. Because the real value of an instant skill is that you can use it through a stun. I believe it's skillfull to use such a skill to prevent a player from hitting my toon when my toon is under the effect of a CC. You're welcome to try to change my mind.

 

Objectively, there's nothing skillfull about insta-casting skills through hard cc. You're welcome to try to change my mind.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > There is nothing skillfull about this instant fear.

> > Objectively, the cast time added will mainly remove a counter to hard CC from the necromancer's kit. Because the real value of an instant skill is that you can use it through a stun. I believe it's skillfull to use such a skill to prevent a player from hitting my toon when my toon is under the effect of a CC. You're welcome to try to change my mind.

>

> Objectively, there's nothing skillfull about insta-casting skills through hard cc. You're welcome to try to change my mind.

 

Then remove all stun break from the game, no let's say put a cast time on all instant skills of the game.

 

Edit: and while you're at it, remove all instant skills (shouts, venom, comands, thief's signets, stances included), remove the necromancer's shroud because it's instant, remove guardian's vitues, mesmer's shatter, thief's steal... etc.