Soulbeast was ranger 2.0

[bigo.9037]

Yea I think anet needs to take a look at both glyphs AND stances. Stances are pretty terrible rn.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Strider.7849" said:

 

> I'm a main ranger as well, and to be honest I'm glad for this trade off. There was no reason to play other specs in WvW or even PvE (except niche situations with druid). I can't speak for everyone but I think a lot of ranger mains feel the same way. It does feel much more balanced now.

I respectfully disagree. ;)

 

[Revolution.5409]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> I got a question for you guys, so is this build really viable? https://www.godsofpvp.net/builds/ranger

>

> I was using tiger with this and white moa.

>

> I traded different stuff while using this build axe/axe GS

> GS LB GS shortbow.

>

> I tried these builds in mist not ranked or unranked mainly practicing and tinkering with the build.

>

> I heard rangers don't do great in 1v1 not sure if thats true, but its certainly rough fighting AOE classes at close range they wreck me such as dealing with heralds and renegade.

 

Yes this is the current Meta build that Rangers use, the class mechanic unfortunately live with this problem, pets cannot dodge Aoe or avoid them, this makes it impossible to save certain pets, the pets you used have a low vitality if you want to play against Rev or generally against classes with a strong Aoe use Smokscale or animals that attack from a distance the rest is mostly useless.

 

EDIT:

Ranger is a good 1vs1, has difficulties in team fights for the pets problem, if 1 or 2 people kill the pet it cannot be replaced for 60 seconds instead the exchange of a live pet is 20 seconds a window of time more than enough for condi class to eliminate it easily.

[Lazze.9870]

> @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> How anyone can argue that pre-patch Beastmode wasn't a straight upgrade to core Ranger without a trade-off (permanently giving up something available to core) is beyond me.

 

It was a straight upgrade to its mechanic, no one in their right mind should disagree with that.

 

But at the cost of using a relatively mediocre traitline with few good options at the master and grandmaster levels. Other elite specs comes with weapons and skills that somtimes defines the meta, the soulbeast dagger never did, and the stances are both hit and miss.

[Substance E.4852]

> @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> How anyone can argue that pre-patch Beastmode wasn't a straight upgrade to core Ranger without a trade-off (permanently giving up something available to core) is beyond me.

 

Because the pet is complete trash that exists in pvp just to deploy CC , plasma, and a smoke field and is the only "class mechanic" that requires you to compensate for rather than leveraging to your benefit.

 

No thief player or Ele begrudgingly deals with initiative or attument swapping

 

No mesmer ever considers their clones to be a problem they have to adjust their playstyle for

 

Your logic is "Ranger was fine and SB made it too good" rather than "Ranger was hobbled with antiquated game design and SB made it functional"

[alain.1659]

It is their style guys. They give you the OP specs, and then take the fun away. I am still angry about the druid change they made (competitive perspective). Havent been playing ranger since then. Soulbeast needed a trade off, true, but this is the laziest, cheapest and the most boring solution they could ever find. Maybe with the meta change things might be fun (lol).

[bigo.9037]

> @"alain.1659" said:

> It is their style guys. They give you the OP specs, and then take the fun away. I am still angry about the druid change they made (competitive perspective). Havent been playing ranger since then. Soulbeast needed a trade off, true, but this is the laziest, cheapest and the most boring solution they could ever find. Maybe with the meta change things might be fun (lol).

 

Honestly I don't mind this playstyle at all. I've adapted to it very quickly and so can everyone else.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

> @"Lazze.9870" said:

> > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > How anyone can argue that pre-patch Beastmode wasn't a straight upgrade to core Ranger without a trade-off (permanently giving up something available to core) is beyond me.

>

> It was a straight upgrade to its mechanic, no one in their right mind should disagree with that.

>

> But at the cost of using a relatively mediocre traitline with few good options at the master and grandmaster levels.

 

This isn't unique to Soulbeast.

 

> Other elite specs comes with weapons and skills that somtimes defines the meta, the soulbeast dagger never did, and the stances are both hit and miss.

 

Yeah, some do. But again, Soulbeast isn't alone. Pretty sure shield never became meta defining for Herald. Mirage axe hasn't seen meta use since 2018 thanks to nerfs. Staff Daredevil wasn't meta for much of its life. Just to name a few.

 

The main reason dagger never saw meta use is probably because condi-Soulbeast was never meta in competitive modes. Dagger does see niche use in certain PvE situations. Pretty much every profession has some "hit or miss" utility sets as well.

 

None of this means that Soulbeast wasn't a very advantageous upgrade over core Ranger without any complete loss of core abilities the way it is for other elite specs.

 

 

 

> @"Substance E.4852" said:

> > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > How anyone can argue that pre-patch Beastmode wasn't a straight upgrade to core Ranger without a trade-off (permanently giving up something available to core) is beyond me.

>

> Because the pet is complete trash that exists in pvp just to deploy CC , plasma, and a smoke field and is the only "class mechanic" that requires you to compensate for rather than leveraging to your benefit.

>

> No thief player or Ele begrudgingly deals with initiative or attument swapping

>

> No mesmer ever considers their clones to be a problem they have to adjust their playstyle for

>

> Your logic is "Ranger was fine and SB made it too good" rather than "Ranger was hobbled with antiquated game design and SB made it functional"

 

This discussion isn't about core Ranger. It's about whether pre-patch Soulbeast had a legitimate trade off.

 

One could similarly say "Engineer was hobbled with antiquated game design and Holosmith made it functional." That doesn't mean Holosmith doesn't need a tradeoff.

[Revolution.5409]

> @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> How anyone can argue that pre-patch Beastmode wasn't a straight upgrade to core Ranger without a trade-off (permanently giving up something available to core) is beyond me.

 

Ranger has 2 pets, both are part of the class mechanic, not just one .. if you have to apply a tradeoff to this profession do it to "both" pets not only 1.

Rangers' disappointment is not about the tradeoff, but the way it is applied.

 

 

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Revolution.5409" said:

> > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > How anyone can argue that pre-patch Beastmode wasn't a straight upgrade to core Ranger without a trade-off (permanently giving up something available to core) is beyond me.

> Rangers' disappointment is not about the tradeoff, but the way it is applied.

>

^ This.

 

 

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Revolution.5409" said:

> > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > How anyone can argue that pre-patch Beastmode wasn't a straight upgrade to core Ranger without a trade-off (permanently giving up something available to core) is beyond me.

>

> Ranger has 2 pets, both are part of the class mechanic, not just one .. if you have to apply a tradeoff to this profession do it to "both" pets not only 1.

> Rangers' disappointment is not about the tradeoff, but the way it is applied.

 

Elementalists and engineers have 2 weapons, why can they swap them out of combat but not during the combat? :(

For convenience. And the same applies to SB now. If you want to swap pets in-combat, don't play SB espec. But,but,but you want to play SB because it's still strong -that's right, so keep playing it. But,but,but inability to swap pets while fighting makes it weaker than it was before, not pretty much a direct upgrade over core ranger anymore and it doesn't give him an easy answer to every situation, so now you have to decide which pet you actually value more for your playstyle. Yes, you do and that was the point :O

 

 

I don't see how your argument "core has it, so it can't be a tradeoff for espec!" is valid at all. You have choices available, if you value pet swapping more than what SB brings to the table, then play core. That's all there is to it.

[Tazer.2157]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

 

> Elementalists and engineers have 2 weapons, why can they swap them out of combat but not during the combat? :(

> For convenience. And the same applies to SB now. If you want to swap pets in-combat, don't play SB espec. But,but,but you want to play SB because it's still strong -that's right, so keep playing it. But,but,but inability to swap pets while fighting makes it weaker than it was before, not pretty much a direct upgrade over core ranger anymore and it doesn't give him an easy answer to every situation, so now you have to decide which pet you actually value more for your playstyle. Yes, you do and that was the point :O

>

>

> I don't see how your argument "core has it, so it can't be a tradeoff for espec!" is valid at all. You have choices available, if you value pet swapping more than what SB brings to the table, then play core. That's all there is to it.

 

Except you did not mention the number of skills the elementalist and the engineer get. With the change soulbeast gets an addition of 4 new skills (1 pet and 3 merged). The engineer and the elementalist get access to WAY more than just 4 new skills. The elementalist has an addition of 10 new skills while the engineer gets even more because of the toolbelt.

 

This tradeoff took away choice and versatility from the soulbeast class. Even the druid gets 7 new skills (5 astral avatar and 2 pet skills) and this is a class that is designed to be a support class. When a support class gets more skills to use then a serious rethink is needed. What can a current soulbeast do that a druid and core ranger cannot? The answer is nothing.

 

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

 

> Elementalists and engineers have 2 weapons, why can they swap them out of combat but not during the combat? :(

 

Elementalists can swap between elements. Engineers can swap between kits.

 

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Tazer.2157" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

>

> > Elementalists and engineers have 2 weapons, why can they swap them out of combat but not during the combat? :(

> > For convenience. And the same applies to SB now. If you want to swap pets in-combat, don't play SB espec. But,but,but you want to play SB because it's still strong -that's right, so keep playing it. But,but,but inability to swap pets while fighting makes it weaker than it was before, not pretty much a direct upgrade over core ranger anymore and it doesn't give him an easy answer to every situation, so now you have to decide which pet you actually value more for your playstyle. Yes, you do and that was the point :O

> >

> >

> > I don't see how your argument "core has it, so it can't be a tradeoff for espec!" is valid at all. You have choices available, if you value pet swapping more than what SB brings to the table, then play core. That's all there is to it.

>

> Except you did not mention the number of skills the elementalist and the engineer get. With the change soulbeast gets an addition of 4 new skills (1 pet and 3 merged). The engineer and the elementalist get access to WAY more than just 4 new skills. The elementalist has an addition of 10 new skills while the engineer gets even more because of the toolbelt.

 

Except sb still has weapon swap and they don't lose a utility skill slot. Also since when do the classes need to have equal number of key presses available?

 

> This tradeoff took away choice and versatility from the soulbeast class. Even the druid gets 7 new skills (5 astral avatar and 2 pet skills) and this is a class that is designed to be a support class.

 

It didn't take the choice away, if anything now you have to make an actual choice instead of easly bringing both offensive and defensive/utility options with you. And if you value pet swapping in combat more than what sb brings with its espec, then simply don't play sb and stick to core.

 

>When a support class gets more skills to use then a serious rethink is needed.

 

I don't see on what basis and in what game that's even remotely true statement that somehow "a support class needs less skills to use than others". Explain please.

___________________

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

>

> > Elementalists and engineers have 2 weapons, why can they swap them out of combat but not during the combat? :(

>

> Elementalists can swap between elements. Engineers can swap between kits.

 

SB can swap weapons and use pet skills. What's your point?

[Revolution.5409]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"Revolution.5409" said:

> > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > > How anyone can argue that pre-patch Beastmode wasn't a straight upgrade to core Ranger without a trade-off (permanently giving up something available to core) is beyond me.

> >

> > Ranger has 2 pets, both are part of the class mechanic, not just one .. if you have to apply a tradeoff to this profession do it to "both" pets not only 1.

> > Rangers' disappointment is not about the tradeoff, but the way it is applied.

>

> Elementalists and engineers have 2 weapons, why can they swap them out of combat but not during the combat? :(

> For convenience. And the same applies to SB now. If you want to swap pets in-combat, don't play SB espec. But,but,but you want to play SB because it's still strong -that's right, so keep playing it. But,but,but inability to swap pets while fighting makes it weaker than it was before, not pretty much a direct upgrade over core ranger anymore and it doesn't give him an easy answer to every situation, so now you have to decide which pet you actually value more for your playstyle. Yes, you do and that was the point :O

>

>

> I don't see how your argument "core has it, so it can't be a tradeoff for espec!" is valid at all. You have choices available, if you value pet swapping more than what SB brings to the table, then play core. That's all there is to it.

 

Elementalist and Engineer are professions designed to work using a single weapon, Anet gave them this functionality after 7 years, but this does not change the functioning of the profession in the least.

I think an elementalist with 45 skills would be more ridiculous than the current FB don't you think? XD

 

The way these two professions work, however, has nothing to do with Ranger's mechanic or what I wrote.

 

Ranger's mechanic has 2 pets and both are part of the profession mechanic, when other professions get a new mechanic this completely replaces the previous one: the difference between Necromancer, Scourge and Reaper is evident and it is what I would like for the my profession.

When Ranger gets BM, remove the pets and balance the new mechanic.

When Druid gets Celestial Avatar, remove the pets and leave only the new mechanic, not leaving the profession halfway between two mechanics each time.

This in my opinion should have been the right path to follow with Ranger but Anet has chosen differently, so we adapt but at least people may not be satisfied with it?

[ZhouX.8742]

> @"AlexndrTheGreat.8310" said:

> > @"Revolution.5409" said:

> > Slb is currently lower than the Ranger, in the tradeoff obtained by Slb there is something wrong.

> >

> > Slb's damage isn't higher than Ranger's, only the initial burst because he can use Sickem.

> >

> > Soulbeast = Druid.

>

> SB‘s damage is higher than ranger’s though.

>

> When you are merged with your pet, you can extra stats based on the type of pet. Furthermore, there is a trait in the BM line that increases your pet’s stats (and when merged, your own stats) even more.

>

> Increasing your own stats is far more valuable than increasing your pet’s

 

dmg != effective , if that was the case you would run a d/d 1shot thief build, but that doesn't get you anywhere. rangers would slot 1shot dmg builds and be in the meta, because dmg would be the only factor in winning games - but it's not , and the reality is it's far from that.

 

there are too many variables that go into an efficient build for any class and dmg is probably the least considered element at first when making it

 

from my perspective much like many other class elements like firebrand and necro's face tank sponge design just to name a few i think the idea of pets are braindead and soulbeast SORT OF tried to attempt fixing that because pet ai does nothing but lower skill ceiling across the board and people who play against rangers would be flipping out if we got to control pet actions outselves, even though that's how it should be.

 

it is complained about into the ground and even when it's useless and sees no meta build play it's still complained about because of it's annoying class design.

 

**the trade off with ranger has always been 1-sided because it's class design was always the trade off and it's perception to the community.**

[knite.1542]

> @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

 

> Dagger does see niche use in certain PvE situations.

 

What? It is the mainhand weapon for the pve metabuild.

[Tazer.2157]

> > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> >

 

> Except sb still has weapon swap and they don't lose a utility skill slot. Also since when do the classes need to have equal number of key presses available?

 

This is the reason for the tradeoff. In competitive games, the more keypresses a class has the higher is it's advantage to use different skills when others are in cooldown. More skills= more options to play. That is why certain classes have a weapon swap and some do not.

 

> It didn't take the choice away, if anything now you have to make an actual choice instead of easly bringing both offensive and defensive/utility options with you. And if you value pet swapping in combat more than what sb brings with its espec, then simply don't play sb and stick to core.

 

Wrong. Earlier you could mix and match. Example, using the wolf to fear, merge with iboga and spit acid on feared foes. Currently you choose one of the better pets in the game period i.e. smokescale, gazette, boon pig. This change makes the majority of pets redundant.

 

> I don't see on what basis and in what game that's even remotely true statement that somehow "a support class needs less skills to use than others". Explain please.

The druid is designed to be a healer/root class. The soulbeast was designed to have more versatility as each pet had 3 new skills added to it when merged. Depending on the pet we chose the soulbeast would play very differently. Wanted a support soulbeast? Pick bear and owl. Wanted an offensive soulbeast? Pick smokecale and gazette, wanted a condi soulbeast, pick a bleed or condi pet. Now with the option to pick only one pet, you tend to pick the best, this is because you cannot work with just a wolf or iboga. The ranger class was not designed to work with a single pet. It is a class that is designed with pet swap in mind and taking that mechanic away hurts the soulbeast.

 

 

 

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

> @"knite.1542" said:

> > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

>

> > Dagger does see niche use in certain PvE situations.

>

> What? It is the mainhand weapon for the pve metabuild.

 

I'm aware of the pve condi metabuild. I use it sometimes. Didn't think it was that common compared to the power builds though.

 

I was also responding to an apparent Soulbeast player who felt dagger was never a meta-defining weapon on Soulbeast. I implicitly agreed with that since the majority of Soulbeast builds seem to be power-based.

[draxynnic.3719]

To be honest, I've always felt that soulbeast was already more restrictive when it comes to pet choices than regular ranger. Regular rangers just need to worry about the pet's own skills and characteristics - a soulbeast also needs to worry about how useful the pet skills are to the ranger when melded, and whether the pet is the right archetype to work with their build.

 

I guess there is the argument that previously you could afford to have one pet that was suboptimal for merging, on the assumption that it was the other pet you'd normally merge with.

[Revolution.5409]

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> To be honest, I've always felt that soulbeast was already more restrictive when it comes to pet choices than regular ranger. Regular rangers just need to worry about the pet's own skills and characteristics - a soulbeast also needs to worry about how useful the pet skills are to the ranger when melded, and whether the pet is the right archetype to work with their build.

>

> I guess there is the argument that previously you could afford to have one pet that was suboptimal for merging, on the assumption that it was the other pet you'd normally merge with.

 

No it's the same thing, Ranger as Slb adapts pets to his Build.

Slb actively uses the skills it gets from merging with the pet, Ranger instead to maximize the damage is based on the skill used by the pet itself.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Tazer.2157" said:

> > > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > >

>

> > Except sb still has weapon swap and they don't lose a utility skill slot. Also since when do the classes need to have equal number of key presses available?

>

> This is the reason for the tradeoff. In competitive games, the more keypresses a class has the higher is it's advantage to use different skills when others are in cooldown. More skills= more options to play. That is why certain classes have a weapon swap and some do not.

 

Yeah, totally -if you assume every skill does the same, has the same values, utility, cooldowns etc. So no, way too broad of a statement to just assume it's correct and move on.

Also the initial answer was about "omg if core ranger has 2 pets then the espec obviously should have/use them both as well!" -no, that's false and it's not the first time something's locked out while in-combat.

 

And even IF what you claim about number of keypresses was correct (it's not), then it would make SB even more of a direct upgrade over core before the last patch, which makes it a correct change.

 

> > It didn't take the choice away, if anything now you have to make an actual choice instead of easly bringing both offensive and defensive/utility options with you. And if you value pet swapping in combat more than what sb brings with its espec, then simply don't play sb and stick to core.

>

> Wrong. Earlier you could mix and match. Example, using the wolf to fear, merge with iboga and spit acid on feared foes. Currently you choose one of the better pets in the game period i.e. smokescale, gazette, boon pig. This change makes the majority of pets redundant.

 

What "wrong"? How does that in any way nullified what I said? "You could mix and match" and yet you almost exclisively picked one offensive and one defensive/utility pet, which makes it hardly a "choice", more of a "I always have an answer to what you do". NOW you're making a meaningful choice instead of just securing most scenarios.

 

> > I don't see on what basis and in what game that's even remotely true statement that somehow "a support class needs less skills to use than others". Explain please.

> The druid is designed to be a healer/root class.

 

Cool. In what way does it answer to what I wrote?

 

>The soulbeast was designed to have more versatility as each pet had 3 new skills added to it when merged.

 

a.k.a pretty much a direct upgrade over core that could play it safe by not having to make an actual choice and picking 2 different types of mergable pets instead. Yup, that's what I keep writing, that's what you try to deny for some reason and also why it's a change in a correct direction without a doubt.

 

>Depending on the pet we chose the soulbeast would play very differently.

 

Exactly, so now you have to actually make a choice instead of picking one for every situation.

 

>Wanted a support soulbeast? Pick bear and owl. Wanted an offensive soulbeast? Pick smokecale and gazette, wanted a condi soulbeast, pick a bleed or condi pet.

 

Yeah, these were totally the top sb picks. But maybe in pve.

 

>Now with the option to pick only one pet, you tend to pick the best, this is because you cannot work with just a wolf or iboga.

 

"the best"? It depends what you want to do with it. There's no one best pet that does everything. And, again, THAT'S THE POINT OF THIS CHANGE.

 

>The ranger class was not designed to work with a single pet. It is a class that is designed with pet swap in mind and taking that mechanic away hurts the soulbeast.

 

Ah, probably the game designers didn't know what their design was designed to do. Glad you could clear it up for them.

Jesus, how can you type something like this and pretend you're correct, I have no idea. But I'm probably done here seeing how I can repeat the same thing over and over again and you'll ignore it by writing "wrong!" and "it wasn't designed that way", oof.

[AlexndrTheGreat.8310]

> >Now with the option to pick only one pet, you tend to pick the best, this is because you cannot work with just a wolf or iboga.

>

> "the best"? It depends what you want to do with it. There's no one best pet that does everything. And, again, THAT'S THE POINT OF THIS CHANGE.

>

 

As much as people want to harp about losing “versatility” and “playing with multiple different pets”, the reality is that people only used a small handful of pets in the first place. PvE dps builds had their dedicated pet (which you didn’t even want to merge out of), WvW almost always used smokescale and snow owl, Siamoth boonbeast build, etc. Even Druid, who still has their pet, only ever actually uses half a dozen of them.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"AlexndrTheGreat.8310" said:

> > >Now with the option to pick only one pet, you tend to pick the best, this is because you cannot work with just a wolf or iboga.

> >

> > "the best"? It depends what you want to do with it. There's no one best pet that does everything. And, again, THAT'S THE POINT OF THIS CHANGE.

> >

>

> As much as people want to harp about losing “versatility” and “playing with multiple different pets”, the reality is that people only used a small handful of pets in the first place. PvE dps builds had their dedicated pet (which you didn’t even want to merge out of), WvW almost always used smokescale and snow owl, Siamoth boonbeast build, etc. Even Druid, who still has their pet, only ever actually uses half a dozen of them.

 

That's fine, then. Make the necessary changes in those modes but leave it alone in open world where such things hardly matter.

[AlexndrTheGreat.8310]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > @"AlexndrTheGreat.8310" said:

> > > >Now with the option to pick only one pet, you tend to pick the best, this is because you cannot work with just a wolf or iboga.

> > >

> > > "the best"? It depends what you want to do with it. There's no one best pet that does everything. And, again, THAT'S THE POINT OF THIS CHANGE.

> > >

> >

> > As much as people want to harp about losing “versatility” and “playing with multiple different pets”, the reality is that people only used a small handful of pets in the first place. PvE dps builds had their dedicated pet (which you didn’t even want to merge out of), WvW almost always used smokescale and snow owl, Siamoth boonbeast build, etc. Even Druid, who still has their pet, only ever actually uses half a dozen of them.

>

> That's fine, then. Make the necessary changes in those modes but leave it alone in open world where such things hardly matter.

 

Anet does not balance the game around open world