Why is Retaliation Hitting for 300 a Tick?

[ArchonWing.9480]

Well, killing yourself by meteoring a zerg is understandable.

 

Killing yourself because of blurred frenzy is well...lol

[aspirine.6852]

You should see the retal on an old fashioned grenade engi when you hit the zerg. Insta downed ?

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Retal wasnt a problem for years now.

 

What happend that it became deadly over night?

 

Other then people playing bad builds?

[Junkpile.7439]

> @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> Retal wasnt a problem for years now.

>

> What happend that it became deadly over night?

>

> Other then people playing bad builds?

Zerglings just stand in damage, let you spam skills 24/7 and won't die. Before i did have to flee after one burst.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

> @"Junkpile.7439" said:

> > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> > Retal wasnt a problem for years now.

> >

> > What happend that it became deadly over night?

> >

> > Other then people playing bad builds?

> Zerglings just stand in damage, let you spam skills 24/7 and won't die. Before i did have to flee after one burst.

 

„Won‘t die“

 

Just play burn guard or focus your bomb with the people around you.

 

Also where the F ate your own support players?

[Junkpile.7439]

> @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> > @"Junkpile.7439" said:

> > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> > > Retal wasnt a problem for years now.

> > >

> > > What happend that it became deadly over night?

> > >

> > > Other then people playing bad builds?

> > Zerglings just stand in damage, let you spam skills 24/7 and won't die. Before i did have to flee after one burst.

>

> „Won‘t die“

>

> Just play burn guard or focus your bomb with the people around you.

>

> Also where the F ate your own support players

 

We don't do organized stuff. We just try to kill enemies solo. B)

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"Infusion.7149" said:

> You're on a mesmer. If you were meteoring on an ele or barraging on ranger it would be even worse.

 

Add using Sword of Justice on an group of oblivious zerglings. Luckily my heal scales with my damage so....

[Zexanima.7851]

Idk man, just pay attention to your enemies boons. Retal is situationally good in the damage department and if you played into that situation you probably messed up.

[Syrus.2174]

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> Idk man, just pay attention to your enemies boons. Retal is situationally good in the damage department and if you played into that situation you probably messed up.

 

By the time you clicked through every enemy in a blob either:

A. you are dead

B. everyone is gone since the fight is already over

C. the boon has been applied to people you already checked

 

I would really like to see a video of someone being able to check through a stacked zerg's boons, player by player, especially during a fight, when boons go on and off constantly, before putting down their bomb, to make sure there is no enemy with retaliation on them.

That just is in no way a viable "counter" to retaliation. And again, no, cleansing is limited to too few classes to be called a proper counter. It is one boon, it should not make up a majority of the received damage while being unavoidable for an attacker. If you want players to not be able to attack at all, I think you are in the wrong game mode. Then again, even in PvE you need to make sure not to get hit too much and dodge every now and then with most classes...

 

It is one thing to die because you weren't paying attention and an enemy kills you (as in, actively shifting their focus to do so), but dying without enemy interaction being necessary at all, in a way that rewards tanking incoming damage instead of reacting to it ... bad game mechanic.

 

Really do feel like I'm repeating myself by now.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Have you tried laying aoe where the bubble is?

[coro.3176]

 

This video is over two years old, but IT STILL WORKS LIKE THIS.

 

If I land a fat Prime Light Beam on a group, I will die - even if I'm at full health. The only difference now is that the initial hit does no damage, so I survive an extra 1s and die on the *next* retal proc.

[K THEN.5162]

> @"coro.3176" said:

>

>

> This video is over two years old, but IT STILL WORKS LIKE THIS.

>

> If I land a fat Prime Light Beam on a group, I will die - even if I'm at full health. The only difference now is that the initial hit does no damage, so I survive an extra 1s and die on the *next* retal proc.

 

Why didn't you take these forum users' advice and rEmOvE eVeRy BoOn on that zerg?!? Shame on you for running such a bad build

[cobbah.3102]

> @"coro.3176" said:

>

>

> This video is over two years old, but IT STILL WORKS LIKE THIS.

>

> If I land a fat Prime Light Beam on a group, I will die - even if I'm at full health. The only difference now is that the initial hit does no damage, so I survive an extra 1s and die on the *next* retal proc.

 

This still makes me laugh so hard !! gj

[GoodWithGravy.8019]

Zerg retal has shut out a lot of builds ever since vanilla. Even post nerf builds like genade and flamethrower engi used to get downed by retal just for using their 1 skill for a couple of seconds.

 

You could easily fix zerg retal without affecting roaming just by adding an ICD to **receiving** retal damage, something like 1 second between ticks, tune it for balance.

[Dajas.4715]

> @"K THEN.5162" said:

> What's the point of fighting if you're just going to kill yourself while attacking?

> 

>

 

I feel your pain as a soulbeast retail can easily take 10k plus off myself in a duel with just ones wolf pack hunters call whilst using mad King runes, it's just stupid.

 

[Syrus.2174]

> @"coro.3176" said:

> [...]

>

> This video is over two years old, but IT STILL WORKS LIKE THIS.

>

> If I land a fat Prime Light Beam on a group, I will die - even if I'm at full health. The only difference now is that the initial hit does no damage, so I survive an extra 1s and die on the *next* retal proc.

 

Just dodge... Wait, did that.

Just heal.... Wait, did that as well.

Just cleanse boons... Wait, can't do that.

 

These situations where you literally can't even attack an organized enemy zerg without it being pure suicide - I don't see how it improves gameplay.

Just means the weak side is at an even bigger disadvantage than they usually would be, since any kind of attempt to catch the enemies off guard will just result in inevitable death.

 

---

 

Always lovely to see those retaliation numbers pop up though:

 


Mind you, that's with 2.8k armor. So, not some ultra-squishy maximum damage Dragonhunter or full-berserker Elementalist.

Not sure if retal is affected by armor, but I would assume so.

Always great when you try attacking a zerg and end up with barely half your health left without actually getting hit.

[Jeddite.8620]

> @"Syrus.2174" said:

> Not sure if retal is affected by armor, but I would assume so.

 

it ignore armor like condition or lifesteal

 

 

> > @"coro.3176" said:

> >

 

its so funny to watch how he try to stay alive : DD

i don't know why people still defending reta, its bullshit -.-

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

> @"Jeddite.8620" said:

> > @"Syrus.2174" said:

> > Not sure if retal is affected by armor, but I would assume so.

>

> it ignore armor like condition or lifesteal

>

>

> > > @"coro.3176" said:

> > >

>

> its so funny to watch how he try to stay alive : DD

> i don't know why people still defending reta, its kitten -.-

 

I like the part where he rallies at the end.

 

D:

[Syrus.2174]

Just another excerpt from today's happy little zerg fights:


Getting downed from nothing but retaliation, despite counter healing, obviously.

Half the time I just had to stand by and watch the enemy zerg, hoping to get out of combat or get some heal before I could do anything to them again, despite standing pretty much next to them and they not noticing me. Truely not the kind of gameplay I enjoy, when you got an advantageous position but no way to use it because attacking at all will kill you.

 

Maybe I should see how to get OBS to run, to show how fast retaliation can make your health melt away.

 

> @"Jeddite.8620" said:

> > @"Syrus.2174" said:

> > Not sure if retal is affected by armor, but I would assume so.

>

> it ignore armor like condition or lifesteal

 

Oh, ok, thanks. Wasn't sure about that, but considering the numbers are pretty equal on my Ele and my DH, I had feared armor didn't matter.

Not sure if that makes the situation worse or not, but it does mean focussing more on vitality instead of toughness might have been a slightly better option when I redid my equipment.

[Simonoly.4352]

I remember when they introduced the piercing 'beam' mechanic to Mesmer greatsword auto-attack so instead of being hit by retaliation damage 3 times per auto-attack, you can now take 9 hits of retaliation per auto-attack! Lucky you!

[Syrus.2174]

WvW is seriously unplayable when the enemy zergs have retaliation and you got no or too little boon removal. It's already hard enough to fight a zerg without removing boons, but as soon as the enemy has that boon, you can pretty much just sit back and watch, because attacking is pure suicide without any fighting back needed.

 

It is not skill, nor is it fun, when every bomb you do on the enemy zerg ends up with 20+k retal damage taken, almost downing you, without anything you can do against it besides just letting the enemy go about their business.

 

People complain about condition damage being too powerful? At least for that you have to do something. The real overpowered thing currently isn't condition damage, not by a long shot.

Retaliation just need to be removed from this game mode - or best yet, form this game.

[blp.3489]

Excuse my newbie ignorance but:

If attacks can only hit 5 people what percentage of those are likely to have retaliation and how much retaliation damage can that generate? Can retaliation blowback exceed the damage applied? If not, is it really that unreasonable that a player ought to be able to take at least a fraction of damage they are giving out? It seems like retaliation is a check on "full glass" builds... For projectile attacks, isn't reflect the same but worse?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"blp.3489" said:

> Excuse my newbie ignorance but:

> If attacks can only hit 5 people what percentage of those are likely to have retaliation and how much retaliation damage can that generate? Can retaliation blowback exceed the damage applied? If not, is it really that unreasonable that a player ought to be able to take at least a fraction of damage they are giving out? It seems like retaliation is a check on "full glass" builds... For projectile attacks, isn't reflect the same but worse?

 

You're not wrong, but it has been known for eles to delete themselves due to retaliation. Reflected projectiles can be dodged and blocked, retaliation can't be.

[Syrus.2174]

> @"blp.3489" said:

> Excuse my newbie ignorance but:

> If attacks can only hit 5 people what percentage of those are likely to have retaliation and how much retaliation damage can that generate?

Each hit on one of those five people, if they have retaliation, which in a group where one spams retaliation is quite likely, will deal ~200-290 dmg to you, easily removing 1.5k health from you with just one tick of AE. Any good bomb does many of those in a very short time, often almost instantly downing you, if you place the bomb perfectly, trying to deal as much damage as possible.

The proper defense against such bomb is to stop or at least harrass attackers, keeping them from placing good bombs and avoiding attacks by maneuvering around the main part of the AE. Retaliation rewards zergs for just standing in place, counter healing and facetanking while the attackers succumb to their own attacks with no alternative than to stop attacking at all.

 

> @"blp.3489" said:

> Can retaliation blowback exceed the damage applied?

Technically, yes, Practically, no.

The difference lies in how the damage is applies, as AE goes to several enemies with toughness applied and all, while retaliation goes to only you. It doesn't matter what damage you do to the enemy, the retaliation damage stays the same (its damage depending on who applied it), its damage is not affected by toughness.

Let's say, you hit a full zerg, 40 players, with your AEs. 2 fields, 5 players hit per second. Thing is, those won't hit the same people with every tick, but different ones. In one second you might hit between 5 and 10 people, let's say you do 2k damage to each, at max 4k damage to one, but all of them have retaliation on them, which, let's say, ticks with 250 per hit. While you do 4k at most to one enemy with the AEs and 20k overall in one second (actually a very high number, I'd say), you take 5k retaliation damage from just those two AE ticks in one second. So, while you at most did 4k damage to one enemy, you took 5k damage just from retaliation AND NOTHING ELSE.

As toughness and such is also applied to your AE damage, while retaliation is unavoidable and not affected by such, it is very likely you did even less damage to a single player than you took in return from the boon.

_(Please correct me, if I'm wrong!)_

 

An Ele putting down a meteor shower (and nothing else), receiving 250 damage retal ticks and hitting max players with every meteor, could receive 24 * 3 * 250 = 18k damage from retaliation alone, pretty much going down from just one attack, considering their low health pool.

 

> @"blp.3489" said:

> If not, is it really that unreasonable that a player ought to be able to take at least a fraction of damage they are giving out? It seems like retaliation is a check on "full glass" builds...

Thing is, I run a condi DH build with signifcant defense these days, but as people stated, toughness is of no help. And not all classes have a massive health pool to deal with this, neither do most classes have massive amounts of healing available to them. I also don't think inaction should be rewarded. Glass builds are easily dealt with by fighting back, "focussing" them down, not by some suicide-boon. It's a bad game mechanic, nothing else, in my opinion, and it gives an organized zerg with the proper classes a massive edge - even more so than they already have - while you suffer extremely if you don't have much boon removal around.

 

> @"blp.3489" said:

> For projectile attacks, isn't reflect the same but worse?

Reflects can be avoided. Mainly you can stop throwing projectiles around or just reposition yourself. Not to mention, reflects have much shorter uptime. Reflects also do less damage, I feel like. Usually they are quite visible as well, so you can plan ahead when attacking a zerg.

With retaliation on the other hand, you get hit for every AE you throw down, the enemy just has to run into them and you can't do anything anymore but watch your health drop. It really becomes a question of, do I try to fight back and probably die, or do I just watch or leave and do something else? I feel like many people don't realize how much health they are losing to just retaliation alone. It is really not that noticable unless you have things like ArcDPS, since it is isn't a "massive one hit" that downs you, but more of a constant drain. You may think you are getting hit by the enemy, while all that's happening is you killing yourself.

 

---

 

With the nerf to overall (power) damage, retaliation is a lot more impactful, as it still does the same damage as before, while you need a lot more hits to do the same damage you did before.

[Dinas Dragonbane.2978]

Retaliation damage is a fixed amount plus some of the person being hit's power, so if you hit tanky people it does less damage than if you take retaliation damage from a glassy character.