Does PvP Need Multiple Gamemodes to be Balanced?

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Before you vote, please consider the following:

TLDR: Perfect class balance where everyone is equal can never be achieved. With additional gamemodes such as CTF, KoTH, there would be multiple different metas, and it would be perfectly acceptable to have certain classes/builds overperform in the gamemode they are designed for. I know adding additional gamemodes is a huge commitment for anet, so this is all just theory and speculation.

 

One of the main issues people have with pvp is class balance. While some people tend to argue for every class to be equally balanced, I would say that such an expectation is completely unreasonable and can be unhealthy for a games longevity. Gw2 is not a competitive game. I know a lot of people left playing are veterans and have a strong competitive nature, but Gw2 is a casual game, and the only way to increase population at this point is to attract more casual players.

 

With only 2 gamemodes its reasonable to have certain classes/builds overperform, since winning largely depends on objectives other than kills/deaths. In conquest, its rotating, de/capping, and holding points. In 2v2, its more about self sustain, kiting, and peeling. Given how classes are somewhat designed with specific roles in mind (daredevil - mobility, warrior - duelist, firebrand - group utility), its completely natural that some have an almost guaranteed place in the conquest and 2v2 meta. However, with only 2 gamemodes, certain classes appear to have no role, and feel left out and underpowered.

 

If gw2 had multiple gamemodes, such as king of the hill, capture the flag, 3v3 - 5v5 elimination, FFA, there would be many different metas and more opportunities for each class/build type to have a place in the game. For example, low mobility classes like necro and Firebrand would likely be pretty terrible in CTF, but would be much more useful in something like KoTH. The idea here is that perfect balance shouldnt be required, and the game would be more fun if classes didnt have to be constantly reworked to fit the conquest meta. So for example, if you love bunker metas and big group fights, play KoTH. If you like high mobility gameplay, play CTF. If you like stealth gameplay, play FFA.

 

Lastly, I think adding 3 sided pvp would be an interesting feature for certain gamemodes like KoTH. I know this would completely screw up the idea of current balance, but it doesnt need to be competitive. And yes, I know non-competitive, "just for fun" pvp belongs in wvw, but it would likely be much easier to implement new gamemodes into a pvp map.

 

 

[Exedore.6320]

You can have multiple game modes while only focusing one game mode for strong balance. Some gave modes just don't work well with some game designs. I haven't seen an MMORPG where 2v2 deathmatch works well.

 

BTW, there was another mode called Stronghold...

[Stand The Wall.6987]

balancing wouldn't be easier with more modes, but it would ensure equal class representation. certain builds would perform better then others and thus adjusting the major components to be viable in one (or all) wouldn't be necessary, so there is that, but in the end that means making sure everybody can play in some/most of the modes. which means more work. it would be good work though, the best, cuz one mode pvp is the worst thing I can think of for this games pvp longevity. imo anet shouldn't stress so much on whats op or not, that stuff will always pop up, but focus on counters to that. that's what made gw1 one of the best games I've ever played. just take a look at the sheer number of builds (oh and modes)! theres plenty of strong stuff, but most everything has a counter. that's the beauty right there.

 

https://gwpvx.gamepedia.com/PvX_wiki

[Kickpuncher.8109]

Lol they can't even balance for one game mode? You expect multiples to help?

 

this really gave me a good laugh

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

It’s possible to balance a game for an infinite amount of modes.

 

However, the way in which Anet balance's this game it’s just not possible. I have a firm belief in this idea that the way to truly balance this game is by diversity..,the more build options that exist, the more builds can be used to adapt to more situations

 

This is how diversity works in the real world (evolutionary biology as a prime example) and it should not be any less different than a game that has autonomous agents like gw2.

 

Let me propose a relevant example of how diversity is a self balancing mechanism:

 

Take the current epidemic scare of the Wuhan Corona Virus. Let’s just imagine now that we can’t find a cure in time before this disease infects everyone on the planet. The death ratio is 2%...which means that out of the 8 billion people on earth, nearly 200 million people will die from it, and the remaining will recover and develop an immunization to it.

 

Now viruses have the ABILITY to adapt, the more that they reproduce... so if the virus infects everyone, there is a higher probability that a mutated strain will appear and bring on another epidemic. This balance mechanism wouldn’t be as potent if there were only a few hundred thousand people on earth because there aren’t enough opportunities for the virus to adapt.

 

This is just an example of how diversity can create ON ITS OWN by virtue of its inherent nature to create balance...

 

Take this idea of how diversity can create balance and apply that to Gw2...the more build options that exist for players to chose from to accomplish a task, the more likely there are builds that can adapt to more situations...so if core necro appears, there should be build options that exist to suppress core necro...then some other build option should exist to suppress that...and so on and so forth.

 

So in a game with different modes, just means that there needs to be enough diversity in build options to exist that allow players to adapt to that mode... something that this game doesn't exactly have because most build options (trait system, weapon skills, utilities) are redundant, non-impactful or just poorly designed. I started a thread a while ago in which i first began to think about this. The start of the thread is a bit vague, but as the discussion moved forward, a more formal consensus was formed from the initial hypothesis, and i suggest giving it a read because it is a precursor to the current balance patch environment we currently live in right now.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/91924/the-importance-of-build-diversity-and-why-its-more-important-than-balance

 

Edit: Most of the things you actually said in your post OP, were talked about in that thread as well...it's interesting that we both kinda arrive at the same conclusions about roles, scales, etc...

[Dantheman.3589]

Multiple game modes and balance don’t really have anything directly to do with being good for the game or to put it short this poll is of bad form

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

> @"Kickpuncher.8109" said:

> Lol they can't even balance for one game mode? You expect multiples to help?

>

> this really gave me a good laugh

 

The point I was trying to make was that if gw2 had multiple gamemodes, then balance discrepancies would be of less importance and people would be less inclined to constantly complain about buffing/nerfing classes, or how the meta isnt to their liking.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:

> It’s possible to balance a game for an infinite amount of modes.

>

> However, the way in which Anet balance's this game it’s just not possible. I have a firm belief in this idea that the way to truly balance this game is by diversity..,the more build options that exist, the more builds can be used to adapt to more situations

>

> This is how diversity works in the real world (evolutionary biology as a prime example) and it should not be any less different than a game that has autonomous agents like gw2.

>

> Let me propose a relevant example of how diversity is a self balancing mechanism:

>

> Take the current epidemic scare of the Wuhan Corona Virus. Let’s just imagine now that we can’t find a cure in time before this disease infects everyone on the planet. The death ratio is 2%...which means that out of the 8 billion people on earth, nearly 200 million people will die from it, and the remaining will recover and develop an immunization to it.

>

> Now viruses have the ABILITY to adapt, the more that they reproduce... so if the virus infects everyone, there is a higher probability that a mutated strain will appear and bring on another epidemic. This balance mechanism wouldn’t be as potent if there were only a few hundred thousand people on earth because there aren’t enough opportunities for the virus to adapt.

>

> This is just an example of how diversity can create ON ITS OWN by virtue of its inherent nature to create balance...

>

> Take this idea of how diversity can create balance and apply that to Gw2...the more build options that exist for players to chose from to accomplish a task, the more likely there are builds that can adapt to more situations...so if core necro appears, there should be build options that exist to suppress core necro...then some other build option should exist to suppress that...and so on and so forth.

>

> So in a game with different modes, just means that there needs to be enough diversity in build options to exist that allow players to adapt to that mode... something that this game doesn't exactly have because most build options (trait system, weapon skills, utilities) are redundant, non-impactful or just poorly designed. I started a thread a while ago in which i first began to think about this. The start of the thread is a bit vague, but as the discussion moved forward, a more formal consensus was formed from the initial hypothesis, and i suggest giving it a read because it is a precursor to the current balance patch environment we currently live in right now.

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/91924/the-importance-of-build-diversity-and-why-its-more-important-than-balance

>

> Edit: Most of the things you actually said in your post OP, were talked about in that thread as well...it's interesting that we both kinda arrive at the same conclusions about roles, scales, etc...

 

I havent had much exposure to complex systems and chaos theory, but ive always found it fascinating how abstract mathematical models and systems can be used to understand seemingly unrelated problems. Seeing it used to help explain game design is pretty interesting.