The forgotten one

[Nimon.7840]

https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

 

Only one class falls out of the 35-38k dps grid.

I knew, necro wouldn't change based on the patch notes.

14-20% behind all other classes dps wise? Really?

 

Can necro please be one time the class that is ahead of the others and not always get the last crumbs, while everyone already has their bread and butter?

 

So when is the big necro rework?

 

Some ideas:

Maybe introduce traits like:

for scourge: loose all access to barrier but all conditions do 15% more damage?

Or reaper: going into shroud doesn't cover your health anymore, deal 20% increased dmg?

 

 

Other ideas for necro traits, that buff necro extremely, but also have a trade-off?

Post them here!

 

Edit: this isn't meant to be a qq thread for everyone. I already did the qq so cut that.. If you agree, just like my post. This is purely meant to be a collection of mostly trait ideas but also skill reworks that allow necro to do more dps, while having a trade-off, if they're too overpowered

[Methuselah.4376]

And here I used to think that Anet were streamlining DPS with just 2-3 exceptions. New chrono benchmark is disgusting and apparently it's missing 200 dps due to a bug with Chronophantasma.....so even bugged it's bloody OP.

 

Thing is necro can't have nice things like 35k dps because people will:

1. Complain: "ermagudz why iz necro doingz dmg? NERF PLZ!!"

2. Ironically probably play reaper more as it is so much safer than a lot of other classes.

[alain.1659]

Reaper is the coolest one, sorry guys. I really dislike PoF professions so I am biased. But come on! Reaper is really the coolest one you can have. Only vampire necro spec would be cooler.

 

I am not a hardcore necro player but I think some core mechanics should be buffed to improve the necro's place in dps charts. Easiest would be to buff life steal aura as it can be shared your total dps contribution would be a lot higher yet you wont be OP by yourself. Both sustain and dps increase would make necro a good choice in group content.

[Dadnir.5038]

The necromancer can't have competitive potential damage in PvE because of the shroud shielding the health pool which make the necromancer more resilient than the other professions when he is at it's dps peak and thus make it's dps more reliable. We all know that.

 

ANet can't make the _reaper shroud_ stop shielding the health pool of the reaper with a trait or anything else because they used the Core shroud structure to create the reaper shroud and they can't tinker with the core shroud structure easily. In short they choose the easy path when creating the reaper e-spec and because of that the reaper e-spec is bound to suffer from the same developpement bounds than the core necromancer.

[Obtena.7952]

The short term answer is choose another class.

 

The long term answer is Anet moving away from a 'second life' shroud mechanic in the next espec. Scourge was a move in the right direction IMO but it's too focused on support to address your PVE performance concerns. No change to traits or anything can fix this.

[Anchoku.8142]

Necromancer is the meme profession. We need a thread to list all of them.

[Axl.8924]

Just delete the class and start all over and reform it from the ground up, sigh its tiring hearing nerf necro.

[Anchoku.8142]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> Just delete the class and start all over and reform it from the ground up, sigh its tiring hearing nerf necro.

 

That's so nostalgic! I have not heard that since HoT released.

[Axl.8924]

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > Just delete the class and start all over and reform it from the ground up, sigh its tiring hearing nerf necro.

>

> That's so nostalgic! I have not heard that since HoT released.

 

Well, it is the same shtick nerf this into the ground.

 

This class is really flawed and unless they change from the ground up I doubt anything will change.

 

Want DPS? we will need to change reaper shroud into defense only and melee so people can stop crying.

 

Remember when epi bounce was holding us back? just get rid of it and improve core necro condi only.

 

Make scourge full-on support and let core be the condi, then if we get into condi issue it will be core, not scourge.

 

Take core necro sustain now. How is it considered good design that people are not happy until necro becomes free kill? it's absurd.

 

And lich is busted too. The amount of summon madness goes out can one-shot, but if nerfed too much, it becomes pointless to use.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

Anet's new formula for reaching the holy 38k+ grail is adding in fantastic conditions which are questionable to satisfy. Guard can reach 38k... if it manages to not get hit at all. Chrono can reach 40k... if it demands other players to supply slow for them. Slb - flanking (remembering to think outside raids). DE - standing completely still.

 

If these conditions are not met, the dps of these builds drop dramatically - coincidently, somewhere only a little higher than what reaper is now.

 

Using the same theory, necro already has that one magical interaction that boosts their dps closer to the holy grail - Dread: deal 33% increased dmg to foes under the effect of fear. And because someone (who was advocating for reaper) told me that we always have to judge from the most optimal conditions (because they didn't approve of me complaining about chrono and slow), this actually may be why reaper is seemingly unable to be buffed. *This* is the relevant tradeoff - just as chrono is 'slow or trash', necro being 'fear or trash' seems good enough for Anet.

[Hannelore.8153]

> @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> Anet's new formula for reaching the holy 38k+ grail is adding in fantastic conditions which are questionable to satisfy. Guard can reach 38k... if it manages to not get hit at all. Chrono can reach 40k... if it demands other players to supply slow for them. Slb - flanking (remembering to think outside raids). DE - standing completely still.

>

> If these conditions are not met, the dps of these builds drop dramatically - coincidently, somewhere only a little higher than what reaper is now.

>

> Using the same theory, necro already has that one magical interaction that boosts their dps closer to the holy grail - Dread: deal 33% increased dmg to foes under the effect of fear. And because someone (who was advocating for reaper) told me that we always have to judge from the most optimal conditions (because they didn't approve of me complaining about chrono and slow), this actually may be why reaper is seemingly unable to be buffed. *This* is the relevant tradeoff - just as chrono is 'slow or trash', necro being 'fear or trash' seems good enough for Anet.

 

The problem is there's a world of difference between access to Fear and access to Slow in the game, especially by duration. That should be changed to something like, deal 20% increased damage to target for 10 seconds after inflicting Fear.

 

But single target only, kind of like how Deadeye's Mark works.

[KrHome.1920]

Since the new xpac is announced we can start to hope again that we get some spec that trades shroud as a defense mechanic for some life force based mobility or block F-skills and maybe high dps.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> Since the new xpac is announced we can start to hope again that we get some spec that trades shroud as a defense mechanic for some life force based mobility or block F-skills and maybe high dps.

 

That's not realistic...

Because _Unholy sanctuary_ exist, the necromancer's special mechanism is bound to be defensive.

Because the necromancer's special mechanism is defensive by nature, the necromancer cannot be a true glass canon and thus cannot have "high" potential dps.

Because the necromancer is design to be "light" on stability, ANet won't give it a "block" that could substitute to stability.

Because the design of the necromancer's defense is to soak damage through health point, there won't be more mobility than there already is.

 

The only thing one can hope for (and, truly, we shouldn't held our hope high for it) is for an e-spec with better designed skills. We could hope for a lot but the reality of the necromancer's design will always strangle those hopes.

 

ANet's devs are just like that with the necromancer, they follow the "traits" of the profession and then push them blindly to the extrem until it's broken.

 

They pushed the shroud (from the core) to the extreme with reaper in HoT and then they pushed boon corruption to the extreme with scourge in PoF. For the next e-spec they will most likely follow the same path and push a broken unsatisfying mechanism to a broken state which could very well be the minion aspect of the necromancer (bound to be both bad in mobility and dps) since they recently tried their hand at making death magic more appaeling. Or it could be the poorly thought out ability of the necromancer to self inflict conditions (I'm sure they will end up trying their luck at it at some point). Or it could even be life leeching creating broken sustain and abysmal dps due to the no crit policy (It almost feel possible)...

 

Anyway, ANet still got enough broken material to work with on the necromancer, there is no way that there is room for mobility, block and competitive dps in this. There is no way to expect the devs to make something not broken when they work with fondamentally broken things. My bet remain on a minion master e-spec that will quickly make PvE dps professions cry for nerfs and a future of unending nerfs that will target the wrong things to tone down what's broken.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

> @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > Anet's new formula for reaching the holy 38k+ grail is adding in fantastic conditions which are questionable to satisfy. Guard can reach 38k... if it manages to not get hit at all. Chrono can reach 40k... if it demands other players to supply slow for them. Slb - flanking (remembering to think outside raids). DE - standing completely still.

> >

> > If these conditions are not met, the dps of these builds drop dramatically - coincidently, somewhere only a little higher than what reaper is now.

> >

> > Using the same theory, necro already has that one magical interaction that boosts their dps closer to the holy grail - Dread: deal 33% increased dmg to foes under the effect of fear. And because someone (who was advocating for reaper) told me that we always have to judge from the most optimal conditions (because they didn't approve of me complaining about chrono and slow), this actually may be why reaper is seemingly unable to be buffed. *This* is the relevant tradeoff - just as chrono is 'slow or trash', necro being 'fear or trash' seems good enough for Anet.

>

> The problem is there's a world of difference between access to Fear and access to Slow in the game, especially by duration.

 

As was slow when Danger Time was changed to affect illusions as well - they increased sources of slow *after* this change. There's nothing stopping them doubling (tripling in the case for reaper) the fear duration of the related shroud fear skills for PvE only, which means necro can then reach these numbers if you simply stack ~6 of them, or 3-4 if they run Fear of Death. Lo and behold, you have your 38k dream that only really works in raids, while subjecting the rest of the class to trash dps elsewhere because otherwise this build would become 'too strong'. This is Anet's new formula.

 

Unless this what people want - in which they can feel free to advocate for this direction, I would personally prefer for my class(es) to be equally effective everywhere and not have to heavily rely on things way out of my control, instead of tempting other players using broken interactions and optimised benchmarks.

[Hannelore.8153]

Another thing that people seem to forget is that Reaper is capable of reaching 100% crit chance in groups without any Precision investment whatsoever, which allows them to run some really weird gearsets (such as full Valkyrie instead of Marauders), and I think this affects how the class is balanced too, since previously only Guardian could do this but can't anymore after the Retaliation nerfs.

 

Necro will always have the defensive advantage, its baked into the class.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

all they really have to do is raise some + damage %/ coefficient numbers and maybe introduce 1 or 2 more. for some reason they haven't all these years and I wonder why.

[Xxnecroxx.4039]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

>

> Only one class falls out of the 35-38k dps grid.

> I knew, necro wouldn't change based on the patch notes.

> 14-20% behind all other classes dps wise? Really?

>

> Can necro please be one time the class that is ahead of the others and not always get the last crumbs, while everyone already has their bread and butter?

>

> So when is the big necro rework?

>

> Some ideas:

> Maybe introduce traits like:

> for scourge: loose all access to barrier but all conditions do 15% more damage?

> Or reaper: going into shroud doesn't cover your health anymore, deal 20% increased dmg?

>

>

> Other ideas for necro traits, that buff necro extremely, but also have a trade-off?

> Post them here!

>

> Edit: this isn't meant to be a qq thread for everyone. I already did the qq so cut that.. If you agree, just like my post. This is purely meant to be a collection of mostly trait ideas but also skill reworks that allow necro to do more dps, while having a trade-off, if they're too overpowered

 

there is nothing more than I would love to see than a necro rework to give it an identity other than BOON CORRUPT BOT (I would prefer that identity as in the plague bringer, I,E the top condi class) but lets face it

 

Anet hates necro, and never wants to see it do good

[Fueki.4753]

Isn't Necro currently the most OP profession in ranked?

[KrHome.1920]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > Since the new xpac is announced we can start to hope again that we get some spec that trades shroud as a defense mechanic for some life force based mobility or block F-skills and maybe high dps.

>

> That's not realistic...

> Because ...

ANet reworked the whole reaper playstyle when scourge was introduced and we've also spec related trait splittings now. Nothing is unrealistic.

 

But: I don't even want a necro without shroud. Scourge feels odd. I like shroud. And I think there are tons of options you could design a shroud that works different than core and reaper shroud.

 

ANet could mix the scourge mechanic of skills consuming life force with the second health bar of core and reaper shroud and the holo photon forge. So we could use it to soak up damage, to be mobile and to set up strong attacks, but all with a limited life force pool which will be consumed by any of these actions.

 

Unfortunately game mechanic creativity while still maintaining basic fun to play and fun to play against rules is not the strongest attribute of anet. Scourge (and some other pof specs as well) is such a big design fail, that I don't expect anything from them.

 

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > > Since the new xpac is announced we can start to hope again that we get some spec that trades shroud as a defense mechanic for some life force based mobility or block F-skills and maybe high dps.

> >

> > That's not realistic...

> > Because ...

> ANet reworked the whole reaper playstyle when scourge was introduced and we've also spec related trait splittings now. Nothing is unrealistic.

 

I don't call what they did a "rework" and you shouldn't do it either. They merely played on numbers nothing more nothing less. Players changed their playstyle accordingly, ANet didn't rework the playstyle.

 

Even in DM case it's a joke to call what they did a rework.

 

> Unfortunately game mechanic creativity while still maintaining basic fun to play and fun to play against rules is not the strongest attribute of anet. Scourge (and some other pof specs as well) is such a big design fail, that I don't expect anything from them.

 

Well, I think that what created the most issue is less the scourge mechanic than ANet's inability to accept that it is flawed just like they refuse to admit that the core is flawed and the 2 e-specs suffered from it. They are constantly buffing/nerfing mechanisms on the necromancer to find a balanced state that would satisfy all gamemode but fail to understand that some of those mechanisms just don't belong in PvE and that all those meaningless buffs leading to nerfs achieve nothing.

 

For ANet devs to create something balanced they would have first to actually work on the necromancer and make it not only viable but healthy for the game. They would have to rethink the role and the limits of the necromancer. It's not that the profession and it's mechanisms aren't interesting but the way they focused on those mechanisms is what is fondamentally wrong and unhealthy for the game. Boon corruption need to have their place in the game reworked, Barrier need a rework, the shroud's role need to be worked on, Shade need to have their role reworked, minions (and related traits) need some work... etc. Everything on core and it's e-spec need work because everything is all over the place.

 

Using e-specs to hide the ugly truth that core is a trash can for broken design that underperform in some gamemode while they overperform in other is the "core" of the issue that create "big design fails".

[Nord.1492]

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> Since the new xpac is announced we can start to hope again

 

Start to hope? Again? How cute ...... good luck with that (Necro Main since 2012)

[KrHome.1920]

> @"Nord.1492" said:

> > @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > Since the new xpac is announced we can start to hope again

>

> Start to hope? Again? How cute ...... good luck with that (Necro Main since 2012)

Nice out of context quote!

 

Currently I am more worried about the no-skill whiners destroying everything good that anet achieved with the balance patch than about some elite spec. I have my perfect elite spec, which is reaper. There will never exist anything better for me.

 

If they nerf pvp reaper further, then this will be the third time they nerfed marauder reaper (1st time: they removed 7s speed of shadows, 2nd time: they deleted the shroud healing of soul eater) to unviability. And this will be the last time that they force me to pick only soldier gear and paladin amulet. There exist enough games that deserve to be played.