Soaring Devastation is a terrible trait

[mes.4607]

Please merge the 25% movement speed component into one of the minor traits or revise the entire trait. The movement speed aspect should be permanent... or give swiftness for like 10 seconds after using F2. Movement speed is too important for DH. Being forced to run a movement speed rune in WvW/PvP 24/7 isn't fun

[draxynnic.3719]

You mean Soaring Devastation?

 

If the move speed increase is so important, that strikes me as a good thing - it means the trait has a chance to compete with Piercing Light. I could see the reasoning for making the speed increase permanent if you have the trait, but it should probably stay in a major trait that competes with Piercing Light.

[otto.5684]

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> You mean Soaring Devastation?

>

> If the move speed increase is so important, that strikes me as a good thing - it means the trait has a chance to compete with Piercing Light. I could see the reasoning for making the speed increase permanent if you have the trait, but it should probably stay in a major trait that competes with Piercing Light.

 

It does not though. Nothing competes or can compete with piercing light. There are no DH builds that do not use traps in any game mode (maybe WvW). Is this bad design? Yes, but it is reality.

 

if soaring devastation is moved to major master instead of hunters determination which is fucking useless. And create a new trait, defensive in nature, to be put instead of soaring dev estate on.

[mes.4607]

Updated the title. Thanks @"draxynnic.3719". @"otto.5684" is right. Nothing will ever compete with piercing light without good incentive. The other two traits are straight dog poo. I wish I could communicate directly with a dev on DH. I literally played this class to 1800 this 2v2 season. It just needs small changes that should be easy to make!

[Turkeyspit.3965]

Sadly the same thing can be said for any profession that doesn't have a boost to run speed baked into their preferred traits. They should add a map wide boon in PvP so all players move at 25%, and for WvW you have speed runes and mounts.

 

It would be simpler to just remove all movement increases (from banners, boosters, etc) and increase base speed to 25%, or just remove them all completely and reduce swiftness to only 25%. Then you would only have run speed, in combat run speed, and swiftness values.

 

 

[Yasai.3549]

Soaring Devastation doesn't really need a buff, but it shouldn't be placed in Adept where it directly competes with Piercing Light.

 

Piercing Light is one of those traits which everyone for any build picks because it is extremely important and overshadows the other two traits.

I don't even know if people ever pick Dulled Senses.

 

They should swap Piercing Light with Hunter's Determination.

It's obvious people will still pick Piercing Light, but at least for Adept tier traits, people will now consider Soaring Devastation or Dulled Senses.

 

 

 

 

[otto.5684]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> Sadly the same thing can be said for any profession that doesn't have a boost to run speed baked into their preferred traits. They should add a map wide boon in PvP so all players move at 25%, and for WvW you have speed runes and mounts.

>

> It would be simpler to just remove all movement increases (from banners, boosters, etc) and increase base speed to 25%, or just remove them all completely and reduce swiftness to only 25%. Then you would only have run speed, in combat run speed, and swiftness values.

>

>

 

Ya.. for some reason, guardian (power builds in particular) seem to be excluded from having a 25% movement speed or swiftness in PvP. Guardian is the only class stuck with using Lynx or Traveler. Has been the issue for years.

[draxynnic.3719]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > You mean Soaring Devastation?

> >

> > If the move speed increase is so important, that strikes me as a good thing - it means the trait has a chance to compete with Piercing Light. I could see the reasoning for making the speed increase permanent if you have the trait, but it should probably stay in a major trait that competes with Piercing Light.

>

> It does not though. Nothing competes or can compete with piercing light. There are no DH builds that do not use traps in any game mode (maybe WvW). Is this bad design? Yes, but it is reality.

 

Which is kinda the point. Anything that's going up against Piercing Light has to be offering something that's _really_ tempting in order to make up for shortened recharge on traps. Being a source of a permanent speed boost on a profession that is otherwise fairly lacking in such options is a step in that direction.

 

Personally, I don't think it's a _bad_ trait, it's just that it's going up against a trait that is often seen as a must-pick, so some form of improvement is probably warranted. Making Wings of Resolve an evade as well might do the trick - number of times back in the day when I activated Wings of Resolve and got spiked or interrupted before landing and killed.

 

[otto.5684]

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > > You mean Soaring Devastation?

> > >

> > > If the move speed increase is so important, that strikes me as a good thing - it means the trait has a chance to compete with Piercing Light. I could see the reasoning for making the speed increase permanent if you have the trait, but it should probably stay in a major trait that competes with Piercing Light.

> >

> > It does not though. Nothing competes or can compete with piercing light. There are no DH builds that do not use traps in any game mode (maybe WvW). Is this bad design? Yes, but it is reality.

>

> Which is kinda the point. Anything that's going up against Piercing Light has to be offering something that's _really_ tempting in order to make up for shortened recharge on traps. Being a source of a permanent speed boost on a profession that is otherwise fairly lacking in such options is a step in that direction.

>

> Personally, I don't think it's a _bad_ trait, it's just that it's going up against a trait that is often seen as a must-pick, so some form of improvement is probably warranted. Making Wings of Resolve an evade as well might do the trick - number of times back in the day when I activated Wings of Resolve and got spiked or interrupted before landing and killed.

>

 

Honestly, even if it is permanent and gives evade I am not likely to use it. That would have no purpose in PvE. In PvP as it currently stands there are no DH viable builds (aside from Zerg WvW but that does not count to much). And in previous meta, TOF and purification were fundamental to medi trapper. Unless we see a full melee DH in PvP (I do not think that will ever come, unless DH can provide retaliation with significant uptime), traps will remain the core of any power build. It does not matter what else being offered, you are not playing DH to tank and dps builds must use traps and thus piercing light.

 

The only other possibility is to cut down WoR CD significantly so that the skill’s damage portion is a part of the consideration to justify not using traps.

 

As it stands, for this trait to have any use it must go to adept line. Since the only real competition is 10% extra damage on cripple (dulled senses) it could see play in PvP, assuming DH sees play in PvP in the future.

[draxynnic.3719]

Well, in PvP it also has the problem of not doing enough damage. Which was a nerf applied at a time when it _was_ being used, which in turn indicates that tweaking the numbers and effect back up to compete with Piercing Light is at least _possible._

 

Moving it up to Master has a couple of effects that don't sit right with me:

 

The first is that if it replaces Hunter's Determination (a trait which has been boonsmited and probably will eventually be replaced with something), that's putting it in direct competition with Bulwark, making a virtues-focused dragonhunter build impossible. (I expect you'll now say that such a build doesn't work anyway, but there's a distinction between "numbers aren't the best, but you can do it if you want to" and "the traits clash"). This could possibly be resolved by moving Bulwark down, but that's just shifting the problem.

 

The second, and probably more important, is that it feels like it's basically giving up, accepting that Piercing Light is always going to be inevitably stapled to every DH build, and that the only way a trait can be competitive is if it's not competing with Piercing Light. This is essentially saying that the other two major adept traits just might as well not exist and that DH essentially has four minors. If one major trait is so dominant, changes should be arranged around breaking that dominance, rather than accepting it.

 

As a consideration, in PvE, the main thing you get out of Piercing Light is being able to use Procession of Blades on a shorter cooldown. What if the damage from Soaring Devastation in PvE was calibrated so that having and using it was about the same DPS boost as using Procession of Blades 20% more often? That way, heavy trap builds would still probably choose Piercing Light, but builds which have only one or two traps might work just as well with Soaring Devastation. Throw in the evade and it could offer utility in the form of avoiding attacks in the process.

 

But if anything should be moved because of Piercing Light's dominance, it should be Piercing Light that is moved up to where it'll face stiffer competition. Competing with Heavy Light and Big Game Hunter might make it less of an auto-pick.

[mes.4607]

I think it's fine in its current line. Literally make it so that the 25% movement speed is permanent! That's it. If they want to do something fancy, also make F2 an evade..

[otto.5684]

@"draxynnic.3719" The issue of having a major trait mandatory is not new or limited to DH or even to guardian. This is a bigger fundamental issue that Anet has in design. One which I do not think is ever going to be resolved. And on DH level, there is a boat load of useless major traits, including:

 

Dulled Senses, useless in every format.

Hunter's Determination, has no purpose in PvE and useless in PvP with 5 min CD.

Bulwark, useless.

Heavy Light, Big Game Hunter is so much better in every possible way.

Hunter's Fortification, does not fit with DH design and current setups.

 

And yes, lowering CD of WoR so the damage component gets closer to PB could potentially work. But Anet is not creative enough to make a change like this (it will require multiple other changes as well). Lazy approach (which as far as I have seen with the PvP changes is Anet design philosophy) is to move it master tier instead of either Bulwark or Hunter's Determination. This way at least it could be used over Zealot's Aggression in PvP.

[draxynnic.3719]

ArenaNet has pretty much acknowledged that the 5 minute cooldown passive traits are placeholders until they can replace them with something that actually fits their new balance principles.

 

Bulwark is in its current state because it was used and got nerfed. Maybe it's due to be buffed back up, maybe you're being overly critical.

 

Heavy Light versus Big Game Hunter... honestly, I haven't really played with it since knockback on longbow skill 3 became baseline. Maybe you're right, but I'm not sure that BGH is necessarily obviously better than having the Stability to follow up an interrupt - I can think of a lot of situations where that might still be handy.

 

Hunter's Fortification... is a defensive trait for anti-condi work.

 

Mandatory major traits is something that happens, but it's something that ArenaNet usually tries to fix (however slow they can be at times) rather than just accepting that that's how it's going to be forever.

 

I wasn't thinking in terms of decreasing the recharge on WoR so much as increasing the damage it deals. Add the evade, and for PvP purposes I don't think it would necessarily actually need to do more damage than the reduced recharge on traps might gain, since it would likely be more reliable (as well as making the heal on WoR more reliable).

[otto.5684]

@"draxynnic.3719" I know this is late. There was suggestion before to cut both CD of WoR and VoR in half, while cutting WoR healing in half and VoR base from 1,600 to 1,000 (VoR is under powered). This makes Soaring Devastation damage worthwhile. Improves mobility a bit. On the other side, reduces condis removed from 2 to 1 and Virtues, Absolute Resolution, from 3 to 2 condis. This keeps condi removal the same (using Absolute Resolution you gain 1 more condi cleanse every 30 secs, not bigge). Increase soaring devastation damage by 25% in PvE. This would really open competition with piercing light.

 

The additional suggestion was to change Hunter's Determination to a trait that also does some sort of effect on WoR. Possibly mobility. I am not in favor of evade. It creates no counter play.

 

Unrelated to that, Bulwark has always been 2 extra secs on ToC. However, in the last 2 year or so DH had no sustain issues. So, it is kinda pointless. Same for Hunter's Fortification. DH does not have additional blocks (unless you run Fragments of Faith, which you should not). And Guardian is flooded with condi removal, especially if running, valor and meditations, as you tend to do with DH. It is not they are bade traits, they are out of place with DH as a line.

 

For the original feedback, I mentioned that unless Heavy Light damage is way higher than BGH it will be a useless trait. They both are 15%, which renders Heavy Light absolutely useless. And the one stability was and is not that useful. The only reason why anyone used this trait, is cuz the CC on DS is mandatory. With it being in the base of the skill, why would anyone use this trait, over a much more useful and reliable 15% damage to tethered targets?

 

As of the 5 mins CD on passive trait procs, I will quote myself from the sPvP preview feedback: "Passive traits. Everyone hates them. The players hate them. The devs hate them. WHY NOT REMOVE THEM ALREADY. What are you waiting for?!! This is the second time you address passive traits and your solution is to increase CD, AGAIN. Really?" This is the second time in span of two years. Anet gets no credit for being fucking lazy.

 

[draxynnic.3719]

I feel like a lot of what you're saying should have a big "in my opinion" disclaimer. For instance, I know at least one top-end player and buildcrafter who _does_ have a burn DH build running Hunter's Fortification and Fragments of Faith.

 

The balance team has been pretty upfront that the intent is to replace the passive traits. The five-minute cooldown is a boonsmiting - it serves to get them out of the PvP meta immediately. Making a _new_ trait requires a bit more work and they haven't had the opportunity to do that yet. Have a little patience.

[mes.4607]

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> I know at least one top-end player and buildcrafter who _does_ have a burn DH build running Hunter's Fortification and Fragments of Faith.

 

...who? What does top-end mean?

[draxynnic.3719]

1) Platinum or higher.

 

2) One of the players who actually makes builds that other people copy rather than copying builds off Metabattle or wherever.

[otto.5684]

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> 1) Platinum or higher.

>

> 2) One of the players who actually makes builds that other people copy rather than copying builds off Metabattle or wherever.

 

March last year, after core guardian was nerfed, I took a none meta core guardian build to P2 going 9-3 (I used zeal/radiance/valor when the meta build virtues/valor/radiance). Does that mean I am a top player or the build was top build? No. Unless you can show me a build played by large group of players, with decent presentation in P3 or leg, it is not competitive/meta or whatever you wanna call it.

 

Of course any player’s position is opinion. I do not have the ability to pull statistics on trait usage. Only Anet can (I hope). However, I am talking from experience and presenting an explanation, based on game design, why I do not see these traits useful. You are telling me that in a galaxy far far away there is a burn guardian who used hunters fortification to get to P1 is bull shit.

[draxynnic.3719]

Pretty sure it wasn't P1, but P2 or P3. In 2v2 - it was a relatively recent video.

 

The majority generally follows the herd, sometimes without really thinking about exactly what makes those builds good. Usually, they focus on the "best" builds, but this means that a relatively small dip in potency means a large dip in the number of players playing it. Which can often mean such builds benefit from the "the other team wasn't expecting that" effect.

 

Ultimately, I'd take opinions of people who actually engage in buildcrafting themselves over what the Metabattle herd is doing.

 

And in that respect - I have your opinion. I also have a dissenting opinion. I can also see the reasoning why Vallun set up a build that way, just as I can see your reasoning. However, your reasoning seems to be carrying the assumption of traits being bad because they're superfluous with the meta builds, without considering that they might be useful with a different build. For example, is Hunter's Fortification a bad (or, possibly more accurately, redundant) fit for a valor+meditations DH? Sure. But what if you're _not_ running valor+meditations? Then you might be looking for an alternative source of condition removal. For a condi build, the ability to take Radiance or Zeal while still having decent condi cleanse might well be worth giving up Big Game Hunter, which is mainly a _power_ damage boost when using a skill you might not actually want to use on a burn build.

 

Just because something isn't a good fit for the meta builds doesn't mean it's bad. It's just that it's not a good fit for the builds which are in vogue at the moment.

[Hannelore.8153]

Change it to:

Wings of Resolve places Light's Judgement (Trap) at the target location &

Placing a Trap grants Swiftness.

 

And then it will directly compete with Piercing Light, and people will take about half the time, if not more.

[alain.1659]

Well the trait we have now is really bad. At least movement speed should be active regardless of the WoR cd. With all the superspeed and swiftness in the game I think şt wont be even an issue. I would even make it %33 movement speed so that it would compete with piercing light.