A Carnival where min-maxing is made fun?

[robertthebard.8150]

> @"Psientist.6437" said:

> > @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> > > @"Psientist.6437" said:

> > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > And then there's the majority of players that get gw2 is not about rotations and meta builds and is all about reactive dynamic skill selection and gameplay (outside raids)

> > >

> > > I have never been into raiding, but I would wager that raiders dynamically select skills and practice dynamic gameplay. I believe you are comparing the emotional thrill of dynamically navigating through a new encounter to the emotion thrill of maximizing competency of a known encounter. I agree that they can be compared but think ranking them is nonsensical, illogical even. Why would you dynamically select skills unless you intend to maximize or optimize output? Concepts such as skill rotations are intentionally designed into the game.

> > >

> > > I think you are making the same 'no true Scotsman/Tyrian' argument that min-maxing elitists use.

> >

> > That's not the impression I came away with. I came away thinking they'd meant that players swap skills/weapons around to find things that they like, and that work for what they're doing, whether they're in the "squeeze every 1/10th of a point of DPS out of a build" club or not. I recently rolled my first Guardian. I have no idea how I'm "expected" to play it, and I don't care, overmuch. What I do want is to be able to complete things that I start. To that end, I've tried almost every weapon type available, dynamically swapping to each to see if it's better than what I've been doing, or worse. When I find a set and swap that works for how I think it needs to be played, I'll start shuffling the utilities around, and swapping builds around to get what I need to get out of it. If, along the way, I'm a boon to have in a group situation, that's outstanding, but, and there's always a but, it's not my driving motivation. Having fun, and playing how I want to play on whatever class I'm playing is my main goal.

> >

> > I am seriously considering rolling a new Ranger, and sticking with the core build, instead of either of the specs. Contrary to the min/maxers, these builds worked really well when they were endgame builds, and just because something may be a bit better, or even a great bit better, doesn't mean that they suddenly became bad. However, if you ask some, if that Ranger isn't a Druid, and is using their pet, they're bad. I've even seen "Rangers using a long bow are bad". At least here on the forums, I seem to see a lot of Rangers using long bows in the OW, and I know I use them too. Of course I also use an axe and a torch on one, and an axe and a sword on the other. One's a Beastmaster, and the other isn't 80 yet, but will be a Druid. I'll have to see what works when I get there, but initially, it's going to be Druid in name only, just like all the builds are, initially, since you've got to earn those HPs to unlock stuff. But that's just what my impression was of "play dynamically". Maybe you're right, I don't know, for sure. I do know, however, that whatever the current FotM builds are, there were players that turned their noses up at them initially, because they didn't conform to the then current meta. I know this because I've actually seen that attitude in play in every other MMO I've played where build diversity is a thing.

>

> I am confident I understood vesica, but I am more interested in something you said. I am not attacking you or your position. I am not a min/max elitist and approach personal optimization as you do.

>

> " If, along the way, I'm a boon to have in a group situation, that's outstanding, but, and there's always a but, it's not my driving motivation."

>

> You clearly understand the value of optimizing personal competency. Do you place a competency threshold on yourself before engaging in group content, especially where group size is limited? Do you recognize the middle ground between pathological build conformity and pathological build rebelliousness? I think you do. I think most people do and yet we keep getting stuck debating from pathological positions.

 

90+ % of my time is spent running maps, or leveling, solo. I am, however, a former progression raider, at least outside of GW 2. I understand that, even w/out a true trinity, there are roles that classes are expected to fill. If I join a dungeon group, and someone pulls me aside and points out a flaw in my rotations, or boon use, etc., I'll listen, depending, of course, on how that advice is offered. If it's ragey, they can forget about it, because I'm going to. Now, during the leveling process on that Guardian, I was invited to several guilds after some event zergs. I declined, not because I'm all that anti-social, but because I am way too sporadic a player, here for a month, gone for a year kind of thing. Not much point in inflicting my habits on others. I also don't see it as all that pathological, at least not in my understanding of the word. We have the dedicated flower sniffers, that build just well enough to get through at least core, and we have the elitist min/maxers.

 

The thing about this game, and others that I've played quite frankly, is that there's this middle group, that isn't interested in BiS skills/gear, but will do enough research, and listening to good advice that's not given through shaming and denigrating in group and map chat, to be quite proficient in most content, if not the best of the best. I feel like I fit in this group. I can't remember which game it was off the top of my head, but I labeled myself as hardcore casual. I'm not going to grind myself to death getting all the BiS stuff in as short a time as possible, but I'll plod my way along to it, even if, at the end of the day, I really don't need it for what I'm doing.

[robertthebard.8150]

> @"yann.1946" said:

> > @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> > > @"Psientist.6437" said:

> > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > And then there's the majority of players that get gw2 is not about rotations and meta builds and is all about reactive dynamic skill selection and gameplay (outside raids)

> > >

> > > I have never been into raiding, but I would wager that raiders dynamically select skills and practice dynamic gameplay. I believe you are comparing the emotional thrill of dynamically navigating through a new encounter to the emotion thrill of maximizing competency of a known encounter. I agree that they can be compared but think ranking them is nonsensical, illogical even. Why would you dynamically select skills unless you intend to maximize or optimize output? Concepts such as skill rotations are intentionally designed into the game.

> > >

> > > I think you are making the same 'no true Scotsman/Tyrian' argument that min-maxing elitists use.

> >

> > That's not the impression I came away with. I came away thinking they'd meant that players swap skills/weapons around to find things that they like, and that work for what they're doing, whether they're in the "squeeze every 1/10th of a point of DPS out of a build" club or not. I recently rolled my first Guardian. I have no idea how I'm "expected" to play it, and I don't care, overmuch. What I do want is to be able to complete things that I start. To that end, I've tried almost every weapon type available, dynamically swapping to each to see if it's better than what I've been doing, or worse. When I find a set and swap that works for how I think it needs to be played, I'll start shuffling the utilities around, and swapping builds around to get what I need to get out of it. If, along the way, I'm a boon to have in a group situation, that's outstanding, but, and there's always a but, it's not my driving motivation. Having fun, and playing how I want to play on whatever class I'm playing is my main goal.

> >

> > I am seriously considering rolling a new Ranger, and sticking with the core build, instead of either of the specs. Contrary to the min/maxers, these builds worked really well when they were endgame builds, and just because something may be a bit better, or even a great bit better, doesn't mean that they suddenly became bad. However, if you ask some, if that Ranger isn't a Druid, and is using their pet, they're bad. I've even seen "Rangers using a long bow are bad". At least here on the forums, I seem to see a lot of Rangers using long bows in the OW, and I know I use them too. Of course I also use an axe and a torch on one, and an axe and a sword on the other. One's a Beastmaster, and the other isn't 80 yet, but will be a Druid. I'll have to see what works when I get there, but initially, it's going to be Druid in name only, just like all the builds are, initially, since you've got to earn those HPs to unlock stuff. But that's just what my impression was of "play dynamically". Maybe you're right, I don't know, for sure. I do know, however, that whatever the current FotM builds are, there were players that turned their noses up at them initially, because they didn't conform to the then current meta. I know this because I've actually seen that attitude in play in every other MMO I've played where build diversity is a thing.

>

> TBH the longbows are bad was more a consequence of some people spamming their skills of cooldown in openworld and nocking adds outside of aoes. Which caused these people to be annoyed.

 

I've seen that, ironically, I've seen it on my ranger... /cry

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"yann.1946" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > And then there's the majority of players that get gw2 is not about rotations and meta builds and is all about reactive dynamic skill selection and gameplay (outside raids)

>

> You do realise thats also a way to play raids?

 

Raiding is primarily about rote memorisation of attack patterns, where you have a tightly tuned boss that does the same thing over and over. You burn the fight into your muscle memory.thats the opposite of dynamic really. Dynamic emergent gameplay doesn't fair well in this type of fight, the margins and time costs are too great - that's whu easy mode raids would be a good thing, but that's a different discussion.

 

The term 'Min maxing' in mmorpg is not about getting the best out of a char/player typically" its about maximising the trinity role for raid fights which is what raid leaders gravitate to. This is natural behaviour, consciously or not they remove as much inconsistencies as possible. Speed becomes a premium because of the rote lesrning time requirements. if your dps, you forego any stat that does not give you max dps et etc.

 

If you look at a raid centric game like wow the entire game is centralised around this min maxing, Blizzard are notorious for dumbing down skills so they can maintain class balance on the damage meters Whereas in GW2 there is a very different design philosophy. As an example look at ele, it's quite normal to take In some health/toughness/healing (less so in raids) . Thats not min maxing, however a player will still try to optimise that char to their goals.

[yann.1946]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"yann.1946" said:

> > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > And then there's the majority of players that get gw2 is not about rotations and meta builds and is all about reactive dynamic skill selection and gameplay (outside raids)

> >

> > You do realise thats also a way to play raids?

>

> Raiding is primarily about rote memorisation of attack patterns, where you have a tightly tuned boss that does the same thing over and over. You burn the fight into your muscle memory.thats the opposite of dynamic really. Dynamic emergent gameplay doesn't fair well in this type of fight, the margins and time costs are too great - that's whu easy mode raids would be a good thing, but that's a different discussion.

>

> The term 'Min maxing' in mmorpg is not about getting the best out of a char/player typically" its about maximising the trinity role for raid fights which is what raid leaders gravitate to. This is natural behaviour, consciously or not they remove as much inconsistencies as possible. Speed becomes a premium because of the rote lesrning time requirements. if your dps, you forego any stat that does not give you max dps et etc.

>

> If you look at a raid centric game like wow the entire game is centralised around this min maxing, Blizzard are notorious for dumbing down skills so they can maintain class balance on the damage meters Whereas in GW2 there is a very different design philosophy. As an example look at ele, it's quite normal to take In some health/toughness/healing (less so in raids) . Thats not min maxing, however a player will still try to optimise that char to their goals.

 

Honestly you're missing quite a lot of the bigger picture here.

In progression it isn't about memorisatian, it's about adapting to your group and figuring out mechanics.

 

Min-maxing doesn't have to be about raids. It happens in pvp and wvw also. And you can do it for open world also. That last one is a little harder because of the assumptions you place while min maxing but still.

 

You don't like raids and thats fine. But you really don't have to make excuses about why you don't like it.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"yann.1946" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > @"yann.1946" said:

> > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > And then there's the majority of players that get gw2 is not about rotations and meta builds and is all about reactive dynamic skill selection and gameplay (outside raids)

> > >

> > > You do realise thats also a way to play raids?

> >

> > Raiding is primarily about rote memorisation of attack patterns, where you have a tightly tuned boss that does the same thing over and over. You burn the fight into your muscle memory.thats the opposite of dynamic really. Dynamic emergent gameplay doesn't fair well in this type of fight, the margins and time costs are too great - that's whu easy mode raids would be a good thing, but that's a different discussion.

> >

> > The term 'Min maxing' in mmorpg is not about getting the best out of a char/player typically" its about maximising the trinity role for raid fights which is what raid leaders gravitate to. This is natural behaviour, consciously or not they remove as much inconsistencies as possible. Speed becomes a premium because of the rote lesrning time requirements. if your dps, you forego any stat that does not give you max dps et etc.

> >

> > If you look at a raid centric game like wow the entire game is centralised around this min maxing, Blizzard are notorious for dumbing down skills so they can maintain class balance on the damage meters Whereas in GW2 there is a very different design philosophy. As an example look at ele, it's quite normal to take In some health/toughness/healing (less so in raids) . Thats not min maxing, however a player will still try to optimise that char to their goals.

>

> Honestly you're missing quite a lot of the bigger picture here.

> In progression it isn't about memorisatian, it's about adapting to your group and figuring out mechanics.

>

> Min-maxing doesn't have to be about raids. It happens in pvp and wvw also. And you can do it for open world also. That last one is a little harder because of the assumptions you place while min maxing but still.

>

> You don't like raids and thats fine. But you really don't have to make excuses about why you don't like it.

 

I spent 10k hours raiding on a single main char once, i understand raiding very well and only dislike the type of tuning that drives out negative behaviors. That's got nothing to do with minmaxing however.

 

There is a very big difference between optimising your char for a game type such as pvp and 'the term' 'minmaxing'. Usage of which has evolved to describe the type of optimising you do for raids, I. E, for the trinity

 

Evidence of this is clear, look at any build site, for e.g gw2 meta build site for ele where every game style has a healthy wide range of builds including hybrids..except for raiding, which has 3 'dps' builds and 1 healer build.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

> @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> > @"Rukia.4802" said:

> > > @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> > > > @"Psientist.6437" said:

> > > > Being good at game-play is valuable. So valuable that the wealthy of skill become rich snobs. The rich and snobbish get in the way and given the chance I would gladly reprogram them. However! Their behavior should never make us so annoyed that we lose sight of good game-play's value. Rich snobs everywhere use snobbery to keep valuable things to themselves. Tyrian Git gudders are claiming a place.

> > > >

> > > > My point! Being good with a class is broadly valuable and motivating players to learn game play and class mechanics pays dividends. Would a carnival that offered games based on game play and class mechanics be successful? Games could measure raw outputs of damage, damage types, healing, etc. Games could measure stacks of buffs. Games would be miniature, specific challenges. The carnival would provide a public space where min-maxing could be explained and taught in a fun and public way. A carnival would need a minimum number of games and I think there are enough specific challenges to turn into games. Rewards could be very small.

> > >

> > > That's not the point of GW2, the players made it the point to min-max, the actual point of the game is to just play the way you want, but I don't suppose some kind of activity wouldn't hurt for people to have fun learning about min-max...oh wait, that can be done in the PvP lobby, though no rewards.

> >

> > If everyone 'played the way they want' which directly translates into doing 0 damage, then no boss would ever die lul.

>

> Interesting since zero damage means they wouldn't be playing at all. Also, I play the way I want and do plenty of damage, without bothering to check if my set up is optimal or not...I've even rescued some groups doing a Daily bounty or some other boss from failure with that character...and it's a core Ranger Long Bow with Pet, but I also know how to CC down the Break Bar and when to use the Knock Back skill...a lot don't the appropriate time to use their skills and what they do, that's the biggest problem.

 

Depends what counts as plenty of dmg. You most likely are doing 10-15 times less dmg than avg raider. But that can be plenty aswell ?‍♀️

[yann.1946]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"yann.1946" said:

> > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > @"yann.1946" said:

> > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > > And then there's the majority of players that get gw2 is not about rotations and meta builds and is all about reactive dynamic skill selection and gameplay (outside raids)

> > > >

> > > > You do realise thats also a way to play raids?

> > >

> > > Raiding is primarily about rote memorisation of attack patterns, where you have a tightly tuned boss that does the same thing over and over. You burn the fight into your muscle memory.thats the opposite of dynamic really. Dynamic emergent gameplay doesn't fair well in this type of fight, the margins and time costs are too great - that's whu easy mode raids would be a good thing, but that's a different discussion.

> > >

> > > The term 'Min maxing' in mmorpg is not about getting the best out of a char/player typically" its about maximising the trinity role for raid fights which is what raid leaders gravitate to. This is natural behaviour, consciously or not they remove as much inconsistencies as possible. Speed becomes a premium because of the rote lesrning time requirements. if your dps, you forego any stat that does not give you max dps et etc.

> > >

> > > If you look at a raid centric game like wow the entire game is centralised around this min maxing, Blizzard are notorious for dumbing down skills so they can maintain class balance on the damage meters Whereas in GW2 there is a very different design philosophy. As an example look at ele, it's quite normal to take In some health/toughness/healing (less so in raids) . Thats not min maxing, however a player will still try to optimise that char to their goals.

> >

> > Honestly you're missing quite a lot of the bigger picture here.

> > In progression it isn't about memorisatian, it's about adapting to your group and figuring out mechanics.

> >

> > Min-maxing doesn't have to be about raids. It happens in pvp and wvw also. And you can do it for open world also. That last one is a little harder because of the assumptions you place while min maxing but still.

> >

> > You don't like raids and thats fine. But you really don't have to make excuses about why you don't like it.

>

> I spent 10k hours raiding on a single main char once, i understand raiding very well and only dislike the type of tuning that drives out negative behaviors. That's got nothing to do with minmaxing however.

>

 

If you understand raids so well i fined it weird you say raids are about memorization. Because the progression part of raiding isn't, and depending on how and who you play with it never has to be that.

 

> There is a very big difference between optimising your char for a game type such as pvp and 'the term' 'minmaxing'. Usage of which has evolved to describe the type of optimising you do for raids, I. E, for the trinity

>

 

Well it has more to do with maximasing a particular trait, so making a lifesteal necro for open world or a burst chrono for pvp would fall under the definition.

But tbf i don't really care that much about the whole minmaxing thing you have a problem with. Although you are bassicly saying that certain builds are bad because you don't like them which i have to say i find odd.

 

> Evidence of this is clear, look at any build site, for e.g gw2 meta build site for ele where every game style has a healthy wide range of builds including hybrids..except for raiding, which has 3 'dps' builds and 1 healer build.

 

TBF pvp doesn't have that much more builds for ele then fractals and dungeons have (and those builds can also be used in raids succesfully).

 

and WvW is basicly two modes in one (roaming vs following tag) so if you want to compare you should open world to the raid group.

 

On top of that you're comparing for 1 class. if you look at guardian and mesmer for example that argument doesn't hold up at all. So its more of a balance/class thing then a content thing.

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

Which is why strike mission exist is it not? No enrage timer, can still kill boss if familiarizing the boss mechanics (and totally ignore rotations), yet reward knowing both by allowing you to complete in Silver/Gold timer.

 

I spent hundreds of hours on raiding, I lead raid for my guild as well as pugging. And a lot of times is not about min-maxing, more importantly it is about identifying what the group lacks and adjust according to it. If I know there are something that the group lacks I can adjust my build towards it, be it CC/boons/heals, and also in case of raid enrage timers, dps as well. As long as it doesn't deviate from your main role significantly the group would be more likely to thanks you than scold you for adjusting.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

Would such a "carnival" event be successful? Hard to say, but I tend to be pessimistic.

 

I see three problems with the idea:

 

+ Cost-effectiveness: it hardly seems worth ANet's effort unless it's something that will keep players busy for a while. Longevity comes either via "fun" (rarely) or rewards (mostly). Make the carnival events too hard or too lengthy, to justify decent rewards, and a significant portion of the target audience (i.e., those who are not already producing top-end results) will complain and avoid them; make the events too easy, and the effort-reward curve becomes skewed.

+ Desire: if the target audience (i.e., those who are lower on the results-produced continuum as far as DPS etc. numbers go) want to improve, there are already avenues to "practice" and improve. The value of a "carnival" would be in trying to trick those who don't want to improve into getting better. However, historically, those who don't want to improve according to an imposed metric will not be so tricked. A player who has chosen to use Soldier Gear for their power build is unlikely to abandon it for a lesser reward (which the carnival would have to be restricted to). Likewise, a player who does not want to learn a "rotation" capable of producing high-end numbers is no more likely to learn one to complete a carnival event than they would be to do anything else.

+ Addressing the cause: the real issue with GW2 effectiveness is that the gap between high-end and low-end numbers is extremely high. A (perhaps apocryphal) statement attributed to ANet puts that gap at 10x. I don't know if that differential is due in part to the presence or absence of optimal group buffs or whether it's purely down to rotation, profession choice and build.

 

I believe a better approach might have been to focus more on depth in GW2 build creation, rather than complexity, which is what ANet has chosen to do. However, that ship sailed a long time ago.

 

That said, though, aren't Strike Missions kind of like what the OP is proposing?

[Perihen the Thawk.9527]

Using your skills in efffective combinations and learning active defense is fun.

 

But I've found that whenever people complain about most players being ineffective or not knowing how to play the game, they're mostly talking about optimizing the synergy between your buff stacks, traits, and equipment stats, which is... not fun for me.

[Linken.6345]

> @"NICENIKESHOE.7128" said:

> Which is why strike mission exist is it not? No enrage timer, can still kill boss if familiarizing the boss mechanics (and totally ignore rotations), yet reward knowing both by allowing you to complete in Silver/Gold timer.

>

> I spent hundreds of hours on raiding, I lead raid for my guild as well as pugging. And a lot of times is not about min-maxing, more importantly it is about identifying what the group lacks and adjust according to it. If I know there are something that the group lacks I can adjust my build towards it, be it CC/boons/heals, and also in case of raid enrage timers, dps as well. As long as it doesn't deviate from your main role significantly the group would be more likely to thanks you than scold you for adjusting.

 

There are infact enrages on the strike mission bosses and its a hard one since it insta kill the squad if timer reaches zero.