Strike Missions are going to end up like raids — mostly closed for new players.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> snip

 

Yup, those numbers seem pretty much similar to past damage tests.

 

I went a bit further and did a test run on a Daredevil (one of the most straightforward builds with most of its damage behind auto attacks) with increasing itemization, traits and rotation.

 

1.) No gear (only white staff), no selected traits (trait-lines were Deady Arts, Critical Strikes, Daredveil) or utility skills, no boons or class buffs, only auto attacks:

 

-> about 720-740 dps

 

2.) No gear (only white staff), **selected traits** no utility skills , no boons or class buffs, no food, only auto attacks:

 

-> about 1100-1150 dps

 

3.) **Full ascended berserker**, selected traits no utility skills, no boons or class buffs, no food, only auto attacks:

 

-> around 8.5k dps

 

4.) Full ascended berserker, selected traits **and utility skills**, no boons or class buffs, no food, only auto attacks:

 

-> around 9.5k dps (notice the Daredevil build uses Signet of Agility and Assassin's Signet both of which increase precision and power respectively)

 

5.) Full ascended berserker, selected traits and utility skills, **all boons and usual test class buffs** (ranger and warrior buffs basically), no food, only auto attacks:

 

-> around 22-23k dps

 

6.) Full ascended berserker, selected traits and utility skills, all boons and usual test class buffs, **food**, only auto attacks:

 

->24-25k dps

 

7.) Full ascended berserker, selected traits and utility skills, all boons and usual test class buffs, food, **full rotation**:

 

-> 31k dps (this is what I was getting with Staff Master trait and no Thiefs guild slotted, the build is capable of around 35k dps)

 

This is on THE class which has the most of its damage behind auto attacks, most other classes are relying far more on skill synergy compared to Daredevil, meaning the difference between a incorrect rotation and a correct one will affect the performance more.

 

**Most of these damage increases are multiplicative**. Meaning if you are starting off with a very low base damage due to incorrect gear, you will scale a lot worse at the top end. Best example here: going from no damage stats (basically nomad gear) to full ascended damage stats (full berserker) was an increase of nearly 800%.

 

Meaning a character in full nomad gear performing the same rotation, with the same amount of boons and class buffs, will be doing 1/8th of the damage a berserker geared character will do (so around 4k dps instead of 30k).

[Katary.7096]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> @"Katary.7096"

>

> So I tested dps under diferent circumstances. The class I picked was old double shortbow soulbeast. It isnt the most powerful dps option and it is the old version but it is the only dps that I sometimes play and also it is easy to play so player skill will not be that huge of a factor.

>

> First test was with all raid buffs and boons + all conditions (standard raid setup) and 4 milion golem

> I got 27751 dps. That is far away from the top but as I have said, this isnt optimized build (top is around 38-40k now)

>

> Then I took down my trinkets and armor (to simulate totaly wrong gear) but kept all boons, buffs and conditions

> I got 10747 dps

>

> After that I droped all the buffs, boons and conditions (and changed the golem to 1 milion golem so I dont die of old age.

> I got 4152 dps

>

> And last I tried correct build but no buffs, boons and condition on 1 mil golem

> I got 13640 dps

>

> From that I can rougly estimate that build with 40000 dps benchmark will do

> 15490 without trinkets and armor,

> 5984 without trinkets, armor, buffs, boons and condition on a golem

> 19660 with correct build but no buffs, boons and condition on golrm

 

Thank you.

[fra.5241]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

 

>

> Your thought process is mindblowing.

> Lets use your ideas on diferent enviroment.

>

> 1) studio coding a game should let anyone without experiance participate because that is discrimination

> 2) profesional football team should let kids from local highschool attend their training

> 3) space agency building a rocket should let local doctor design the engines

> 4) kid which is celebrating his/her birthday should let the neighbour open the gifts because that kids wants to.

>

> You are saying that everyone should put others first. Thats nice. But doesnt that work for the player that wants to join too???

> Not to mention that there are 9 players that want to play certain way. And one last player joins and now they must follow him? What is this?

>

> Are there experianced players that let new blood into their squads (both for raids and strikes)? Yes.

> Is that a must? No.

>

> Hell when I am raiding and someone joins without the requirements but is polite and upfront about it I let him in. If someones fake the KP, doesnt comunicate or say that I need to let him in, he is flying away from my squad either back to aerodrome/thenewhubthingy or into my blocklist.

>

 

You should read more and write less.

 

> @"fra.5241" said:

> I'm agree that people have to get a bit of experience to certain contents. Maybe giving player a chance to join, it'd be possible to have an idea of him.

 

Is it a logical argument or not? It is clear and implicit that people need to know content mechanic to join. In brief, I disagree only with the absurd requirements that players require.

And please, you don't compare professionals to gamers, because simply it's out of place! :)

[Sykper.6583]

I sort of doubt it, I think Strikes are going to be a bit more successful simply because they are investing into the tech for public queuing, creating a reward system for weekly progression, enabling rewards based on how fast you complete the encounter, etc.

 

Raids have the benefit of providing immediate ascended rewards and skins on top of an arguably easier currencies.

 

Arenanet is testing the waters for instanced content, there's a high probability they might even introduce a form of public queuing for each raid wing at some point in the future. Obligatory 'tank' queue, 'healer' queue, and 'dps' queue. But that's only if they see success from Strikes.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"fra.5241" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

>

> >

> > Your thought process is mindblowing.

> > Lets use your ideas on diferent enviroment.

> >

> > 1) studio coding a game should let anyone without experiance participate because that is discrimination

> > 2) profesional football team should let kids from local highschool attend their training

> > 3) space agency building a rocket should let local doctor design the engines

> > 4) kid which is celebrating his/her birthday should let the neighbour open the gifts because that kids wants to.

> >

> > You are saying that everyone should put others first. Thats nice. But doesnt that work for the player that wants to join too???

> > Not to mention that there are 9 players that want to play certain way. And one last player joins and now they must follow him? What is this?

> >

> > Are there experianced players that let new blood into their squads (both for raids and strikes)? Yes.

> > Is that a must? No.

> >

> > Hell when I am raiding and someone joins without the requirements but is polite and upfront about it I let him in. If someones fake the KP, doesnt comunicate or say that I need to let him in, he is flying away from my squad either back to aerodrome/thenewhubthingy or into my blocklist.

> >

>

> You should read more and write less.

>

> > @"fra.5241" said:

> > I'm agree that people have to get a bit of experience to certain contents. Maybe giving player a chance to join, it'd be possible to have an idea of him.

>

> Is it a logical argument or not? It is clear and implicit that people need to know content mechanic to join. In brief, I disagree only with the absurd requirements that players require.

> And please, you don't compare professionals to gamers, because simply it's out of place! :)

 

I wanted to make examples for xou to relise what is wrong with your logic. Didnt relise that longer text might be dificult to unerstand for you so I am sorry for that.

 

Yes. I can give anyone chance to try. But what if someones doesnt perform? You lose that time. And next one might again fail. And next one. And next one. And all that time I actualy have to play. Sometimes people want efficient run. So they ask for experianced players.

Yes. Commander wants to have an idea of a player. Thats why he ask for KP. Because he doesnt want to test every player separately. This takes less time. Its like some universities allow studets with certain highschool marks in without further tests.

 

If I had to let everyone in squad, I would never enter any squad content ever. Because I dont want to talk to people. I want to go in, finish it and go out.

[Asum.4960]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > The game can teach players what good builds are currently, for the content at hand, by making them fail if they don't have one. It's really that easy to make people experiment and research, but that takes guts to stick with as dev because you want everybody to have a good time.

> Except it doesn't really work. Most of the players simply _won't_ be experimenting and researching, They will not know why they have failed, nor will they care. They will keep bashing their heads against the wall up until a certain point, and if the wall won't give up fast enough, will simply decide that content is not for them.

>

> Honestly, even a lot of raiders aren't so keen on experimenting, and their researching stops at looking at the few sites that tell them what to do. There are also raiders that do not check anything unless they are specifically _told_ to do so by someone they depend on information. If you can see this kind of approach even among the seemingly more hardcore crowd, what makes you think that it will be any better for more casual players?

>

> > One thing to realise though is that the discomfort of that failure is temporary, while the lessons that are gained from it can blossom into much greater joy and investment of and from the player as it opens to doors to more intricate and engaging content.

> That's a very nice theory, but the years of MMORPGs have shown, that the reality just doesn't work like that, for a huge majority of players anyway. What can "blossom into much greater joy and investment" and "open the doors to more intricate and engaging content" for some, will only blossom into unhappiness and disappointment, and close the door to more engaging content for most.

>

> Like i said, other MMORPGs get around it by allowing players to overgear the content. If you're not good enough to do the raid, you can simply wait a bit, get a better gear and try again - and this time you will find it easier (until at some point it will become easy enough for you to pass). GW2, obviously, cannot do that.

 

Unless you are arguing for a gear treadmill as solution, then according to this it's not a design problem and entirely a community and player mentality problem which Anet can't do much about.

And imo an endless gear treadmill is one of the laziest design methods to do efficacy progression and I personally much prefer the skill based approach of GW2, and I do think there are design methods which can increase the rate of players which do want to interact with skill progression through self-improvement. Not all of them, and probably not even the majority, but at an increased rate - which is enough since you don't need the majority playing endgame hardcore content to keep a game healthy, if you can land at around 30%, you are golden.

 

> @"fra.5241" said:

> Is it a logical argument or not? It is clear and implicit that people need to know content mechanic to join. In brief, I disagree only with the absurd requirements that players require.

 

The thing you are not taking into account is that Raiders give new people a chance all the time, even though they are lacking requirements. But often that goes wrong and those few players that they took a chance on caused them to wipe over and over and over while showing no improvement or willingness to listen (or to participate in mechanics), or even getting toxic and hostile when trying to educate them, at which point those Raiders likely get frustrated and go back to LFG with harsher requirements and no tolerance for those who aren't fulfilling them, just wanting to finally get things done with other experienced players.

 

Yes, as non raider it's easy to think established hardcore players should just be willing to give new people a chance at all times, but if you are a Raider with 3 hours set aside for a weekly full clear, and you already spend an hour + wiping on the easiest bosses available because you wanted to give someone a chance (and got your group insulted and attacked by the entitled players who were the problem for trying to help them out), you are probably going to get more reluctant over time to do so again.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Asum.4960" said:

> Unless you are arguing for a gear treadmill as solution, then according to this it's not a design problem and entirely a community and player mentality problem which Anet can't do much about.

No, i don't advocate for gear treadmill. I just point out that if the design of the game clashes with the player mentality (which is not specific to GW2 - it's something common to all games, and thus something Anet should have been completely aware of), then it is the design that is a problem, not the mentality. If you make a game for a specific group of players, then it needs to be designed for that group of players.

 

> And imo an endless gear treadmill is one of the laziest design methods to do efficacy progression and I personally much prefer the skill based approach of GW2, and I do think there are design methods which can increase the rate of players which do want to interact with skill progression through self-improvement.

Perhaps there are, but they weren't used for GW2, and cannot really be applied to the design we have now. For that you'd need to have a system that supports slow and gradual improvement, instead of the one like in gw2, where there's a massive gap between groups, and practically nothing in between. For that you'd also need a system that allows for self-improvement using tools the _game_ gives you, instead of the one in gw2, where the "self"-improvement is based mainly around third-party resources.

 

There _was_ one occasion when they could have done something about it. It would not have changed the situation completely, but it could have been at least of _some_ help. That chance was the introduction of the template system - when done right, it might have done wonders to help propagate good builds within the game. Unfortunately, instead of trying to improve the game, it got designed with the primary goal of monetization, which practically reduced any impact it might have had to near zero.

 

> Not all of them, and probably not even the majority, but at an increased rate - which is enough since you don't need the majority playing endgame hardcore content to keep a game healthy, if you can land at around 30%, you are golden.

That's a big if. If you know of a game that ever managed that, i'm all ears, but so far i am not aware of even a single one that succeeded in such a major (yes, 30% ratio for a hardcore crowd _is_ major) improvement through stimulating player improvement (instead of just shedding the weaker players - which does increase the percentages, but without actually increasing the player _numbers_, which doesn't really count).

 

> The thing you are not taking into account is that Raiders give new people a chance all the time, even though they are lacking requirements. But often that goes wrong and those few players that they took a chance on caused them to wipe over and over and over while showing no improvement or willingness to listen (or to participate in mechanics), or even getting toxic and hostile when trying to educate them, at which point those Raiders likely get frustrated and go back to LFG with harsher requirements and no tolerance for those who aren't fulfilling them, just wanting to finally get things done with other experienced players.

>

> Yes, as non raider it's easy to think established hardcore players should just be willing to give new people a chance at all times, but if you are a Raider with 3 hours set aside for a weekly full clear, and you already spend an hour + wiping on the easiest bosses available because you wanted to give someone a chance (and got your group insulted and attacked by the entitled players who were the problem for trying to help them out), you are probably going to get more reluctant over time to do so again.

That, unfortunately, is completely true. And it's (again) not something i'd dub "player problem", because this is a completely reasonable behaviour that is created by game design.

 

So, again, we're back to the problem being caused by the game design, not by players.

 

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > The thing you are not taking into account is that Raiders give new people a chance all the time, even though they are lacking requirements. But often that goes wrong and those few players that they took a chance on caused them to wipe over and over and over while showing no improvement or willingness to listen (or to participate in mechanics), or even getting toxic and hostile when trying to educate them, at which point those Raiders likely get frustrated and go back to LFG with harsher requirements and no tolerance for those who aren't fulfilling them, just wanting to finally get things done with other experienced players.

> >

> > Yes, as non raider it's easy to think established hardcore players should just be willing to give new people a chance at all times, but if you are a Raider with 3 hours set aside for a weekly full clear, and you already spend an hour + wiping on the easiest bosses available because you wanted to give someone a chance (and got your group insulted and attacked by the entitled players who were the problem for trying to help them out), you are probably going to get more reluctant over time to do so again.

> That, unfortunately, is completely true. And it's (again) not something i'd dub "player problem", because this is a completely reasonable behaviour that is created by game design.

>

> So, again, we're back to the problem being caused by the game design, not by players.

 

This has nothing to do with game design. This happens in every area in life when you gain experience and knowledge. At a certain point you want to spend time with other people with a simliar experience, either to discuss things or learn more or do a task more efficient. You surround yourself with people that have simliar interests and knowledge you have. You don't want to explain most things everytime you play a boardgame or want to have a discussion.

 

It is completely player made as there is a certain demographic that just don't want to improve or learn. And they were trained in the early days that they don't need it. The early game design amplified the problems we have now. But they aren't caused by game design.

 

People will always find ways to only play with the people they want to. And if you change it to public match making only those people will just stop playing.

[mazut.4296]

Strike Missions are the new raids. It looks like raids are over and no new content is on the horizon.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

>

> This has nothing to do with game design. This happens in every area in life when you gain experience and knowledge. At a certain point you want to spend time with other people with a simliar experience, either to discuss things or learn more or do a task more efficient. You surround yourself with people that have simliar interests and knowledge you have. You don't want to explain most things everytime you play a boardgame or want to have a discussion.

Indeed. So, the game design should acknowledge that thing like that happens, and try to address it somehow. It can separate the groups based on skill and experience, it can minimize the impact of having players from lower skill/experience tiers in your group, or it can reward players with higher skill experience/groups for playing mentors to lower tiers (or any combination of those). GW2 does neither, and that _is_ a design problem.

 

> It is completely player made as there is a certain demographic that just don't want to improve or learn. And they were trained in the early days that they don't need it. The early game design amplified the problems we have now. But they aren't caused by game design.

It's like saying that the house having no isolation and heating is not a design problem, but a climate problem - or a people problem, due to the inhabitants not being used to cold (or not willing to make a bonfire in their living room). Sorry, if the problem results from discrepancies between game design and likes/dislikes/habits of players, then it _is_ a design problem. Unless it was the behaviour of players that for some reason changed, anyway, or is for some reason nonstandart and unexpected, but that's not the case here.

 

TL/DR;

The behaviour of GW2 players is no different than the behaviour of players of any other MMORPG. The game design does not acknowledge that. It means, the game was not well designed for typical MMORPG players. The game **is** a MMORPG. Ergo, the design is the problem.

 

 

[ProtoGunner.4953]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

 

>

> > @"ProtoGunner.4953" said:

> > The problem in this game is the gear. You can give your character gear that does absolute kitten damage. As one developer mentioned there are people doing 10 times less damage. I mean imagine that. That's why many companies just streamline it and give you gear that only caters to your class.

> It's not a gear problem. Or at least it's not primarily a gear problem. You can get a 5x difference in dps between two players with the very same build and gear, _based on rotation alone_. You can get as much as 2x dps difference (perhaps even more) with the same build, gear and rotation just on difference in timing (both speed and precision) of the skill use.

>

 

Yes, it is still a gear problem. I give you credits that there are very complex rotations like the condi dps renegade, but if you have simple builds like Soulbeast Condi the difference is not that big with shit rotation. The difference however is VAST if you have nomad vs. viper's gear just to point out the extremes.

 

[Abdel Muhti.6431]

The public strike missions are a mess. Gave it some tries today. No success. I havent completed a single mission since release of them. I try to do my best to look at the mechanics of the fight, dodge, etc... but thats not enough. As im not a professional raid-player and got 0 LIs i have to say: Strike missions are not for ordinary peasants like me.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

Joined an LFG for Whisper before leaving for work this morning. Already have the 3 dailies done for the week, all achievements done, blah blah, but it was for some quick fun before the office.

 

I joined as a healer, and took a quick look at the composition, saw 4 Berserker icons, and when asked what else was needed, the commander replied "I'm not really sure". If that weren't enough, one of the squad made a comment to another member, a Firebrand, asking why they were running 4 signets. The response was: because I play this game the way I want.

 

And......drop group. Maybe they filled my spot and went on to 1 shot that boss, but I wouldn't have bet any gold on that.

 

But if I had dared to suggest some of those warriors change professions, or asked the FB to use a real build, I would have been labelled toxic and/or elitist. /shrug

 

I got my dailies done each week, and I have all the achievements completed - people can call me whatever they want, all the while complaining they cant get the rewards or AP for this content, when the answers are right there in front of them.

[Captain Kuro.8937]

If there is a chance that Strike Missions or the Raids won't pay off , is there going to be new formula such as :

Meet The dev...i mean Titans Gods . Superior being that are humogous is size and with a chicky attitude working in their Workshop . With anti-heroes such as the famous cleani...i mean Caretaker Lady / Spider and her husband the 1980s Robot on the desk /Player moving among the keyboard and causing the Titan to mess the code/or placing pins for his finger and create bugs .

 

Small episodes , unlock single office...i mean areas each time , with 2 bosses . Just climb and kill the horde of ants /climb and waste time under blouse with bottuns-skirt/avoid the cat/avoid fist-elbow-dragonborn shout of the gods / dps the plug /avoid detection + huge swattert/help them dress up like america's football armor so they can face the pvp forums /the fastest group can type in the keyboard to be shown ingame message (each time you complete the istance , you get an extra letter space)

Edit: Or prevent the god from smashing his PC , because the ancient program cost too much to be ugraded or freezes .

Or prevent the Gods from putting spaggeti in their pc ...it will mess the code .

Or allow the players to sneak in the relax loung/cafeteria/ future discussion meeting table and choose future desicions a/b/c

Or get a buff that increase the damage/decrease healing they take on their character , in next office update with increased rewards if they wished for . Or forces them to unequip all their Amutels/Rings/Accessories if they want the increased rewards , or use defensive ones

 

Simple design , workbench-pc are made of stone , with moss and flower

 

edit2: steal the Street Fighter Cheat Codes >go into pc > place a chest into a location (huge list) on the world > as long as the chest is not opened in the PvE World > they get rewards every 5 min

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"ProtoGunner.4953" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

>

> >

> > > @"ProtoGunner.4953" said:

> > > The problem in this game is the gear. You can give your character gear that does absolute kitten damage. As one developer mentioned there are people doing 10 times less damage. I mean imagine that. That's why many companies just streamline it and give you gear that only caters to your class.

> > It's not a gear problem. Or at least it's not primarily a gear problem. You can get a 5x difference in dps between two players with the very same build and gear, _based on rotation alone_. You can get as much as 2x dps difference (perhaps even more) with the same build, gear and rotation just on difference in timing (both speed and precision) of the skill use.

> >

>

> Yes, it is still a gear problem. I give you credits that there are very complex rotations like the condi dps renegade, but if you have simple builds like Soulbeast Condi the difference is not that big with kitten rotation. The difference however is VAST if you have nomad vs. viper's gear just to point out the extremes.

>

Nomad vs viper is about as much an extreme as condi dps renegade proper rotation vs just spamming auto.

 

Notice, on the other hand, how good players, knowing what they do, can go in green common gear (so, no stats like expertise or concentration) and budget cheap runes, and still significantly outperform people in right gear and builds that have no idea how their rotations should look like (and even many thet do know what their rotations look like, but just aren't the top tier players). And that's with the whole group - so, with heals and supports suffering under the same gear handicap.

 

In this game, gear handicap can be overcome with enough skill. Skill handicap however cannot be overcome with gear.

 

 

 

[fra.5241]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" and @"Asum.4960"

What else can i say, guys? If you prefer to exclude those players without requirements, okay. Although it will be Arenanet to decide all, at the end. Meanwhile I keep to give an opportunity to anyone.

The random groups that I made, they've been more than satisfactory, until now. Expecially today, with 0 dead in Bone Skinner and WoJ.

 

[Fueki.4753]

I don't care for elitists continuing there insane requirements.

 

My squads will always be open for all.

In my experience, people using the LFG tool already are a step up from those who only join public strikes.

This one step usually is enough to make strikes succeed.

[Asum.4960]

> @"fra.5241" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" and @"Asum.4960"

> What else can i say, guys? If you prefer to exclude those players without requirements, okay. Although it will be Arenanet to decide all, at the end. Meanwhile I keep to give an opportunity to anyone.

> The random groups that I made, they've been more than satisfactory, until now. Expecially today, with 0 dead in Bone Skinner and WoJ.

>

 

Again, just because I'm trying to explain why I think it's not an issue how other people choose who they want to play with doesn't mean I myself play Strikes that way or prefer it happening.

I just think that since everybody can make their own groups I don't see an issue with how some others make theirs.

 

I personally don't think Strikes are difficult at all, and the majority of my groups had zero requirements and went just fine, even with often having to carry 1-3 players who joined as DPS or randomly just to do less than 5k, doing less damage than the supports. It doesn't really matter for such easy content.

But once that does become an issue and causes repeated wipes without improvement of the problem players, I can understand then wanting to go for a group with some ensurance for better players, aka asking for some requirements, considering time isn't unlimited.

[flog.3485]

> @"Abdel Muhti.6431" said:

> The public strike missions are a mess. Gave it some tries today. No success. I havent completed a single mission since release of them. I try to do my best to look at the mechanics of the fight, dodge, etc... but thats not enough. As im not a professional raid-player and got 0 LIs i have to say: Strike missions are not for ordinary peasants like me.

 

Just join the LFG with a regular dos build: they are groups that require no exp/LI or whatever insane requirements and that are willing to teach as the fight progresses.

Personally, I went from not doing any group endgame content for the last 3-4 years (only doing open world stuff) to easily complete the 3 first SM and getting my first whisper of Jormag kill two days ago.

 

You do need to have a basic understanding of any class you play though if you are insisting on pugging.

[fra.5241]

> @"Asum.4960" said:

> > @"fra.5241" said:

> > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" and @"Asum.4960"

> > What else can i say, guys? If you prefer to exclude those players without requirements, okay. Although it will be Arenanet to decide all, at the end. Meanwhile I keep to give an opportunity to anyone.

> > The random groups that I made, they've been more than satisfactory, until now. Expecially today, with 0 dead in Bone Skinner and WoJ.

> >

>

> Again, just because I'm trying to explain why I think it's not an issue how other people choose who they want to play with doesn't mean I myself play Strikes that way or prefer it happening.

> I just think that since everybody can make their own groups I don't see an issue with how some others make theirs.

>

> I personally don't think Strikes are difficult at all, and the majority of my groups had zero requirements and went just fine, even with often having to carry 1-3 players who joined as DPS or randomly just to do less than 5k, doing less damage than the supports. It doesn't really matter for such easy content.

> But once that does become an issue and causes repeated wipes without improvement of the problem players, I can understand then wanting to go for a group with some ensurance for better players, aka asking for some requirements, considering time isn't unlimited.

 

Oh please, I wasn't sarcastic! Simply I only said "do what you want." Really, I don't care it and I don't want to talk about this topic anymore. So, have a good day.

 

_p.s. expressing myself in a different language may sometimes misunderstand the real intentions._

[ProtoGunner.4953]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"ProtoGunner.4953" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> >

> > >

> > > > @"ProtoGunner.4953" said:

> > > > The problem in this game is the gear. You can give your character gear that does absolute kitten damage. As one developer mentioned there are people doing 10 times less damage. I mean imagine that. That's why many companies just streamline it and give you gear that only caters to your class.

> > > It's not a gear problem. Or at least it's not primarily a gear problem. You can get a 5x difference in dps between two players with the very same build and gear, _based on rotation alone_. You can get as much as 2x dps difference (perhaps even more) with the same build, gear and rotation just on difference in timing (both speed and precision) of the skill use.

> > >

> >

> > Yes, it is still a gear problem. I give you credits that there are very complex rotations like the condi dps renegade, but if you have simple builds like Soulbeast Condi the difference is not that big with kitten rotation. The difference however is VAST if you have nomad vs. viper's gear just to point out the extremes.

> >

> Nomad vs viper is about as much an extreme as condi dps renegade proper rotation vs just spamming auto.

>

> Notice, on the other hand, how good players, knowing what they do, can go in green common gear (so, no stats like expertise or concentration) and budget cheap runes, and still significantly outperform people in right gear and builds that have no idea how their rotations should look like (and even many thet do know what their rotations look like, but just aren't the top tier players). And that's with the whole group - so, with heals and supports suffering under the same gear handicap.

>

> In this game, gear handicap can be overcome with enough skill. Skill handicap however cannot be overcome with gear.

>

>

>

 

But dude be reasonable; no one who steps into a raid just spams auto as an condi renegade. Or let's say: almost no one. I think you just want to win the argument. Of course, I second your opinion that bad playing also does a bad job. But streamlining still helps: in WoW you can do the LFG raid fairly well, and there are a lot of casuals playing.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"ProtoGunner.4953" said:

> But dude be reasonable; no one who steps into a raid just spams auto as an condi renegade. Or let's say: almost no one. I think you just want to win the argument. Of course, I second your opinion that bad playing also does a bad job.

Yes, precisely, it's unreasonable. Exactly as unreasonable as running Nomad in dps role. If you want to use unreasonable, extreme examples, you need to allow them for everything, not just to support only your own arguments.

 

> But streamlining still helps: in WoW you can do the LFG raid fairly well, and there are a lot of casuals playing.

In WoW and FF XIV, due to different game design, gear has a much greater impact on overall effectiveness, and skill impact, while still important, is much smaller than in GW2 (and i mean, way, **way** smaller). That's why those games can do things that are next to impossible here.

 

Yes, different stats on gear are part of that design difference, but only a small part. It's not only the freeform approach to builds (that lets you create a broken and useless character in a hundreds of ways, without actually helping you avoid those pitfalls) - it's the action-based combat system, the extremely fast-paced skill use and rotations, the importance of precise positioning, and little tricks like weapon stow aftercast cancellations that create the massive gap between top, average and bottom tier players. Much greater than one you can see in other MMORPGs

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"ProtoGunner.4953" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"ProtoGunner.4953" said:

> > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > >

> > > >

> > > > > @"ProtoGunner.4953" said:

> > > > > The problem in this game is the gear. You can give your character gear that does absolute kitten damage. As one developer mentioned there are people doing 10 times less damage. I mean imagine that. That's why many companies just streamline it and give you gear that only caters to your class.

> > > > It's not a gear problem. Or at least it's not primarily a gear problem. You can get a 5x difference in dps between two players with the very same build and gear, _based on rotation alone_. You can get as much as 2x dps difference (perhaps even more) with the same build, gear and rotation just on difference in timing (both speed and precision) of the skill use.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Yes, it is still a gear problem. I give you credits that there are very complex rotations like the condi dps renegade, but if you have simple builds like Soulbeast Condi the difference is not that big with kitten rotation. The difference however is VAST if you have nomad vs. viper's gear just to point out the extremes.

> > >

> > Nomad vs viper is about as much an extreme as condi dps renegade proper rotation vs just spamming auto.

> >

> > Notice, on the other hand, how good players, knowing what they do, can go in green common gear (so, no stats like expertise or concentration) and budget cheap runes, and still significantly outperform people in right gear and builds that have no idea how their rotations should look like (and even many thet do know what their rotations look like, but just aren't the top tier players). And that's with the whole group - so, with heals and supports suffering under the same gear handicap.

> >

> > In this game, gear handicap can be overcome with enough skill. Skill handicap however cannot be overcome with gear.

> >

> >

> >

>

> But dude be reasonable; no one who steps into a raid just spams auto as an condi renegade. Or let's say: almost no one. I think you just want to win the argument. Of course, I second your opinion that bad playing also does a bad job. But streamlining still helps: in WoW you can do the LFG raid fairly well, and there are a lot of casuals playing.

 

I give you Preach, who spent 9 hours on the N'Zoth fight in LFR in WoW retail and recorded his experiences (and mind you, this is the LFR version of the fight, not even the regular one):

 

TL;DR:

Some players are just as brain dead there as they are here. The moment something more complex is introduced into LFR which can not:

 

A.) be out performed via the stacking buffs one gets for wiping in LFR(aka more damage and healing)

B.) requires a minor semblance of mechanical understanding and movement

C.) can not simply be out geared (similar to A but now based on personal gear)

 

Players in LFR are lost and will not be able to complete the encounter. Streamlining will do only so much, but since players can't out gear content in this game (on top of the fact that correct gearing here will lead to extreme performance differences) even streamlining will not help address the core issues: players who want to raid in GW2 need to actually improve at the game.

[Fueki.4753]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> I give you Preach, who spent 9 hours on the N'Zoth fight in LFR in WoW retail and recorded his experiences (and mind you, this is the LFR version of the fight, not even the regular one):

>

>

> TL;DR:

> Some players are just as brain dead there as they are here. The moment something more complex is introduced into LFR which can not:

>

> A.) be out performed via the stacking buffs one gets for wiping in LFR(aka more damage and healing)

> B.) requires a minor semblance of mechanical understanding and movement

> C.) can not simply be out geared (similar to A but now based on personal gear)

>

> Players in LFR are lost and will not be able to complete the encounter. Streamlining will do only so much, but since players can't out gear content in this game (on top of the fact that correct gearing here will lead to extreme performance differences) even streamlining will not help address the core issues: players who want to raid in GW2 need to actually improve at the game.

 

The N'zoth fight in LFR has another layer of difficulty that other LFR fights lack:

Blizzard forgot to (or intentionally didn't) gate it behind the Legendary cloak, which is necessary for this fight.

If they had gated it behind the cloak, people wouldn't suck **as much** in that fight.

 

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> To be fair, the N'zoth fight in LFR has another layer of difficulty:

> Blizzard forgot to (or intentionally didn't) gate it behind the Legendary cloak, which is necessary for this fight.

> If they had gated it behind the cloak, people wouldn't suck **as much** in that fight.

>

 

So what you are saying is, rather than trusting players have a knowledge of the fight, and the mechanics thereof, Blizzard should instead have hard coded the requirement for the cloak to just get to the boss? Kinda proving Cyninja's point there.

 

One truism of life: you can never make anything idiot proof, as someone will always develop a new and better idiot.