General skills that should see a change in my eyes

[Tyga.7056]

So there are some skills that should see a change out of my BvB and GvG experience.

**Bomb kit**: We currently have tons of engies around that run dps scrapper and its fairly too strong. Since the patch a bomb kit build has come up that does with autoattacks up to 8k hits on opponents. Doing that much damage on autoattack with low effort and high reward.

**Alturism Rune**: Since Alturism Rune has no internal cooldown it got also pretty much abused by a lot of support scrappers. Since the function gyro got changed some months ago, you can easily use the mortar swaps to activate the rune and get stupidly insane amount of cleanses.

**Winds of Disenchantment** So, making winds on 5 targets after patch was a good nerf in my eyes, but not good enough for the value it still has. Having such a huge area denial radius wise has so much impact on zerg movement, because you can't really risk getting hit by it. My change suggestion to the skill is: 1. getting a slight radius nerf and 2. give it an overload treatment.

Since the the current design of the skill has a huge impact in GvG and smaller fight less on blob fights, I would suggest to keep the channeling in the beginning, but after a short time the warrior drops it like the old bubble mechanic. It makes it easier to outkite it and also gives the skill a higher skill ceiling.

**Shock aura**Since aura share became a thing again, shock aura is also there. I think the duration of the aura is a bit too long tho. 4 seconds of a mechanic that stuns 5 targets that want to hit a skill at you, seems way to off for me. This should be a defensive mechanic, that prevents opponents to hit you in a certain situation and not for the time being after that. In some situations the mechanics makes it close to an invuln skill.

**Burning**I think everyone that has arcdps installed and that ran publics after patch has seen burn guards putting out an insane amount of damage with low effort. In my eyes its basically the same as bomb kit engi. The effort to do that much damage is so low and the value insanely high. My suggestion is: tweaking the scaling of burning in general. Right now in PvP and WvW burning is on the most classes by far the highest damaging condition.

 

Would be cool if that skills get attacked in the next balance patch and might see some change in some way. Thank you for reading, stay healthy and have a good week!

[Vova.2640]

I can agree with Bomb Kit and the amounts of burn guards put out are bit too much... But everything else you mention.... really does not sound like an issue.

What I really want to see is dragon banner nerfs. That thing does way too much dmg relative to what normal players can do...

[Infusion.7149]

Bomb kit has 1.2 coefficient auto attack but it scales as a utility skill rather than a weapon skill. The downside is currently the fuse time, it has a huge upside in that it hits 5 targets. It simply was overlooked in the patch.

 

edit: if anything I expect Explosive Entrance (the damage on dodge) to be cut down in line with autoattacks as it is 1.25 coefficient.

 

Altruism rune probably needs a minor internal cooldown but remember you do nothing else when cycling mortar kit. I tried it when antitoxin was meta and ultimately while okay wasn't gamebreaking. You get all peoples' conditions so it is also dangerous. With Purity of Purpose nerfs I don't think it as large a problem as you make it out to be.

 

Winds isn't strong on its own, it's strong due to people comboing off of the lightning field. If stability is corrupted or the spellbreaker is CCed it ends winds.

 

Shock aura doesn't have that many outputs other than overload air unless you drop staff for dagger mainhand. It doesn't come off of combo finishers.

 

As far as burn guard goes, other than adding an internal cooldown to permeating wrath in the virtues line I can't see any other major changes happening.

[Virdo.1540]

Winds of D. isnt that big of a deal. Imo they can bring back the 10-man target limit, while having the same radius.

 

What should be nerfed is the damage it does. Having an giant bubble ,with 0 enemy boons is ok, but not damaging each target in the bubble by 600+ per second for 5s.

[lodjur.1284]

> @"Tyga.7056" said:

> So there are some skills that should see a change out of my BvB and GvG experience.

> **Bomb kit**: We currently have tons of engies around that run dps scrapper and its fairly too strong. Since the patch a bomb kit build has come up that does with autoattacks up to 8k hits on opponents. Doing that much damage on autoattack with low effort and high reward.

 

It's a delayed melee attack. Just kill the scrapper if they go for it. I have yet to see bomb in even the top 10 skills on arcdps dmg taken.

 

> **Alturism Rune**: Since Alturism Rune has no internal cooldown it got also pretty much abused by a lot of support scrappers. Since the function gyro got changed some months ago, you can easily use the mortar swaps to activate the rune and get stupidly insane amount of cleanses.

 

The thing should at least have 5-10 sec of internal CD yes.

 

> **Winds of Disenchantment** So, making winds on 5 targets after patch was a good nerf in my eyes, but not good enough for the value it still has. Having such a huge area denial radius wise has so much impact on zerg movement, because you can't really risk getting hit by it. My change suggestion to the skill is: 1. getting a slight radius nerf and 2. give it an overload treatment.

> Since the the current design of the skill has a huge impact in GvG and smaller fight less on blob fights, I would suggest to keep the channeling in the beginning, but after a short time the warrior drops it like the old bubble mechanic. It makes it easier to outkite it and also gives the skill a higher skill ceiling.

 

I don't really really zerg, in smallscale bubble is annoying but somehow the least annoying of the common warrior ultimates. Feels like much less of a problem since they they got 300 sec cd on procced stance.

 

Either way I don't really care if it gets nerfed or not.

 

> **Shock aura**Since aura share became a thing again, shock aura is also there. I think the duration of the aura is a bit too long tho. 4 seconds of a mechanic that stuns 5 targets that want to hit a skill at you, seems way to off for me. This should be a defensive mechanic, that prevents opponents to hit you in a certain situation and not for the time being after that. In some situations the mechanics makes it close to an invuln skill.

 

Shock aura is fine. The game needs less CC but aura share ele is very far from the biggest offender.

 

Even if it got nerfed the duration should stay tho. All auras have the same duration, making this one be shorter would just be weird.

 

The biggest problem with cc is all the various pulls, knockbacks etc. That and the few 3-4 sec stuns (like gale, baclbreaker, some of the fears (as they stack duration).

 

> **Burning**I think everyone that has arcdps installed and that ran publics after patch has seen burn guards putting out an insane amount of damage with low effort. In my eyes its basically the same as bomb kit engi. The effort to do that much damage is so low and the value insanely high. My suggestion is: tweaking the scaling of burning in general. Right now in PvP and WvW burning is on the most classes by far the highest damaging condition.

 

I have arcdps installed, in like 95% of fights, retal is top of dmg taken by a rather large margin. Burning is commonly second place (partly because it compounds into one dmg entry as opposed to power skills which shows up as a variety of entries).

 

Some skills should have the number of burning stacks shaved a bit, like SoJ (by giving eternal armory the dhuumfire treatment maybe), guardian torch 4 etc.

 

Maybe some more of the really bursty applications from other classes (like glyph of elemental power for example) could also get a stack amount change.

 

Condi shouldn't really be bursty. But nerfing the dmg for each individual stack being nerfed would hit a lot of builds that really doesn't need nerfs.

 

>

> Would be cool if that skills get attacked in the next balance patch and might see some change in some way. Thank you for reading, stay healthy and have a good week!

 

 

[bluberblasen.9684]

**shocking aura** is no problem in wvw.

its a problem in pvp.

**Winds of Disenchantment**

i would buff this skill back to 10 targets instead of a range nerf.

**Burning** the problem is not Burning alone - its the def stats + Burning. You should be forced to skill high precision when using condition builds....but it's another story..

[Tyga.7056]

The general issue of winds are not really in publics or blobs. It's more in GvG and smaller fights as I mentioned. The problem there is that the warrior bubble instantly put you on the backfoot and every good guild uses that as spike opener. You find grav wells, immob and other setup skills in the winds. Since its a channeling skill and the warrior can just train you over, its honestly pretty hard to counter that since most guilds run 3 warriors and you just get chained down. The old bubble was fairly more avoidable in smaller groups because it was easier to outkite it, but in publics too strong because it was placeable and had a more value through area push denial. So I do think my suggestion is fair and makes the skill more skillfull in the end also. You get pretty much rewarded to play it smart and get a good placed bubble off in publics and in smaller groups people have the chance to outkite it easier and not get outtrained in the end.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"Infusion.7149" said:

> Bomb kit has 1.2 coefficient auto attack but it scales as a utility skill rather than a weapon skill.

 

whats that mean?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"Infusion.7149" said:

> Bomb kit has 1.2 coefficient auto attack but it scales as a utility skill rather than a weapon skill. The downside is currently the fuse time, it has a huge upside in that it hits 5 targets. It simply was overlooked in the patch.

>

> edit: if anything I expect Explosive Entrance (the damage on dodge) to be cut down in line with autoattacks as it is 1.25 coefficient.

>

> Altruism rune probably needs a minor internal cooldown but remember you do nothing else when cycling mortar kit. I tried it when antitoxin was meta and ultimately while okay wasn't gamebreaking. You get all peoples' conditions so it is also dangerous. With Purity of Purpose nerfs I don't think it as large a problem as you make it out to be.

>

> Winds isn't strong on its own, it's strong due to people comboing off of the lightning field. If stability is corrupted or the spellbreaker is CCed it ends winds.

>

> Shock aura doesn't have that many outputs other than overload air unless you drop staff for dagger mainhand. It doesn't come off of combo finishers.

>

> As far as burn guard goes, other than adding an internal cooldown to permeating wrath in the virtues line I can't see any other major changes happening.

 

The problem IS permeating wrath along with symbolic power.

[Infusion.7149]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Infusion.7149" said:

> > Bomb kit has 1.2 coefficient auto attack but it scales as a utility skill rather than a weapon skill.

>

> whats that mean?

It doesn't use weapon strength.

 

The wiki is under maintenance but you can check it really easily. For the "problem build" of DPS hammer scrapper put all marauder + scholar rune in gw2skills.

 

From Feb 25 patch notes, https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/98220/game-update-notes-february-25-2020 , electrowhirl = 0.8 per strike with 2 strikes = 1.36 coefficient total.

 

If bomb kit used weapon strength and 1.2 coefficient then tooltip would be 1.2/1.36 ~ 88.2% of the damage of electrowhirl. Electrowhirl is stated as 1376 damage, so a hammer skill with 1.2 coefficient would be ~1213 damage. However , bomb kit auto is 1050 damage using the same stats so the "utility" weapon strength is around 950 rather than that of a 2 hander which is typically ~1100 on average. In short bomb kit auto is around 1.03 coefficient (1050/1376 *1.36) if it were a hammer skill instead. If it gets hit it will likely be shaved ~33% as a typical auto attack is around 0.50 to 0.60.

 

Another thing you can see this in is Mind Slash (mesmer sword auto , 0.5 coefficient) vs Mantra of Pain's Power Spike (which was reduced to 0.45). Mind Slash with full zerk+scholar = 501 , Power Spike = 321 which is obviously more than 10% difference.

 

For holo PF:

power coefficients 0.4/.666/1.066 , full zerk+scholar = 420, 699, 1118 per gw2skills

Holo leap power coefficient 0.91 , full zerk+scholar = 955 per gw2skills

Sword auto = 0.586/0.62/1.0 , full zerk+ scholar numbers = 587, 621, 1001 per gw2skills (sword = 1 hander)

 

Likewise for power reaper vs Reaper Shroud:

Greatsword auto : power coefficients 0.666/0.866/1.133.

(Full zerk + scholar = 734, 954, 1248)

Reaper Shroud auto : power coefficients 0.583/0.613/1.13.

(full zerk+scholar = 642, 675, 1245)

This suggests reaper shroud uses weapon strength , at least per gw2skills.

Well of corruption (utility) per strike is 0.45 , total coefficient = 2.7 ---> if it were a weapon skill you'd expect around 2900 damage per Greatsword damage

(full zerk + scholar = 1735 ; ~289 per strike)

Well of suffering (utility) per strike is 0.9 , total coefficient = 5.4 ---> you'd expect 5900ish damage if it were a Greatsword skill

(full zerk+ scholar = 3858 ; ~643 per strike)

 

[Junkpile.7439]

Every elementalist scepter and offhand dagger skill

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

Of course someone starts complaining about bomb-kit engi lol...

 

I swear to the 6, i'm so sick of seeing these nerf threads....

 

JUST DELETE EVERY SKILL AND GIVE EVERYONE A STICK.

THERE, BALANCE.

 

HAPPY NOW?

[ArchonWing.9480]

All you need to do with burn guard is nerf sword of justice. Probably either remove burning from Eternal Armory or put a cooldown on it. Without these things burn guard isn't as useful.

 

Also consider doing something about virtue of justice and reflects. If you want to talk about arcdps, reflects greatly inflate the dps. I can get 7k dps just from the reflect itself. Though not sure if that really means anything.

[subversiontwo.7501]

> @"Tyga.7056" said:

> So there are some skills that should see a change out of my BvB and GvG experience.

> **Bomb kit**: We currently have tons of engies around that run dps scrapper and its fairly too strong. Since the patch a bomb kit build has come up that does with autoattacks up to 8k hits on opponents. Doing that much damage on autoattack with low effort and high reward.

The bombkit has always been kind of wonky in that sense but at the same time, the auto attack is really the only skill it has going for it. Everything else is much weaker than many comparable options (eg., the other skills combined does not make it a viable condition kit, especially not after the uptime nerfs). That also goes for the class as a whole. The Engineer has never been a very popular class and as builds that are competetive have popped up on it, they have also seen a number of different nerfs recently. It is not a particularily broad class to begin with so if you just keep nerfing everything on it that sticks out on it they will quickly be left with nothing. The mortar kit represents something similar by the way with high-spread and high-base auto on limited application. That ties into your next point as well, with burning.

> **Burning**I think everyone that has arcdps installed and that ran publics after patch has seen burn guards putting out an insane amount of damage with low effort. In my eyes its basically the same as bomb kit engi. The effort to do that much damage is so low and the value insanely high. My suggestion is: tweaking the scaling of burning in general. Right now in PvP and WvW burning is on the most classes by far the highest damaging condition.

Burning has always worked this way with a high coefficient but access limited either to stacks or to the access of other conditions. We can discuss wether that is a good core design or not but it is nevertheless the core design so while it can potentially be strong it has also always been a bit of a gimmick. A class that can stack burning has the potential to do alot of damage but rarely does with a lack over cover conditions. So while we can talk about burning we can also talk about the rather uneven access to cleansing that we see among classes. If all classes have viable access to cleanses then burn builds quickly become highly limited. The same classes that see a broad application when we talk about things like access to damage and control on their weapons are also often classes that have good access to cleanses among core skills. Those classes are well represented in every mode and at every scale. The other classes are peripheral and niched, so poking too much at them comes with the risk of making them unplayed.

 

**So what am I trying to get at?** Well, yes, these things can be looked at, but when they are, they should be looked at within a larger perspective of class-class balance. Simply concluding that they stick out and can come with balance issues is problematic when they most likely were designed to stick out in this manner and often compensates subpar mainstay options (eg., weapon skills, purity of purpose on the core design etc.) on classes that have them. Bringing them down either requires precision in the balance or requires a redesign or you risk simply taking the niche that they represent out of play.

 

> **Winds of Disenchantment** So, making winds on 5 targets after patch was a good nerf in my eyes, but not good enough for the value it still has. Having such a huge area denial radius wise.

I've said this from the beginning: They should just have limited it's size. I preferred the old mechanic where it was a bubble that was dropped on a location. The only issue back then was that the radius was simple too large for such a powerful ability. The mechanical change that followed has just been clunky, unintuitive and less fun to play while it has remained very powerful and with a large radius of impact.

 

> **Shock aura**Since aura share became a thing again, shock aura is also there. I think the duration of the aura is a bit too long tho. 4 seconds of a mechanic that stuns 5 targets that want to hit a skill at you, seems way to off for me. This should be a defensive mechanic, that prevents opponents to hit you in a certain situation and not for the time being after that. In some situations the mechanics makes it close to an invuln skill.

Again, perhaps this is more a question of stability being less common? I kind of like the notion of shocking aura as a defensive tool with the effect being applied on-hit. It has to be somewhat powerful and available when it has such an indirect application. Instead of nerfing the ability I would much rather see stability buffed or active CC become more scarce first. It's not like you see massive stacking of Eles for shocking aura.

 

Anyway, thanks for a good thread. Do not take my dissenting oppinions as an attack on the thread. I think this is a good discussion.

I simply want to add to it :).

 

 

[Justine.6351]

Someone is trying to find new stuff that works after WvW got wrecked,

Better nerf it and drive those players away too...

[Tyga.7056]

@"subversiontwo.7501" Thank you for your constructive comment.

**Bomb kit**: I think mainly engineer has found its place in a WvW comp and its good performing in its niche right now. Purity of purpose and the healing output is a good argument to take a support scrapper in. I agree that only the autoattack is the only useful option on the kit, but thats what makes it generally out of relation to other classes. Has a pretty high risk doing that damage and scrapper has through its sustain on traits and the class itself an ez run on it. I just think dps shouldnt be that easy obtainable, same as burn guard. All I'm craving for is that people put work in to get a reward in the end. You could also argue the self sustain from scrapper should be rework generally.

**Burning** The issue is in zerg fights are enough good cover conditions through necro and other classes. That makes burning so strong in the gamemode and technically you have enough cleanse through scrapper, warhorn+ shout on war, tempest and fb.

What's bothering me the most is the burn application on guardian. I actually recognized it the most in the last 2v2 season. When I fight a symbolbrand, the main damage output was burning. On a build that has a power amulet and is based around power weapons+ traitlines.

But I also noticed it on power rev for example. Elemental blast is a skill that does generally good power damage, but also randomly high burn damage on skill activation. My effort is so low to cast that and the value is so high to get it off, that its just so out of relation in my eyes. You could also say, okay we look at generally skills that have a high burn coefficient and fix that or work on the application in general and it would be fine. But I want the game to be at a point again where people actively think about pressing a skill to get the value of it. Not spamming a certain key without a thought and like mention above, throwing a reflect into a zerg and waiting until the tick down is a FeelsBadMan.

**shock aura**It is actually in GvG becoming a thing stacking eles. You have atleast 2 in your squad.

In general, even if stability sees a change again, I think it's just such a free stack removal having shock aura for 4 seconds.

I also thought about double guard might being a thing again. Since back in the day it was very common to run 2 every party.

 

Thank you again for your comment!

 

[Tyga.7056]

@"Justine.6351" you simply misunderstand my point. If all those skills would require a high amount of effort put into it, to make it work I wouldn't have a single problem with it. If the new stuff means spamming an autoattack at the commanders position, I do.

[subversiontwo.7501]

> @"Tyga.7056" said:

> @"subversiontwo.7501" Thank you for your constructive comment.

> **Bomb kit**: I think mainly engineer has found its place in a WvW comp and its good performing in its niche right now. Purity of purpose and the healing output is a good argument to take a support scrapper in. I agree that only the autoattack is the only useful option on the kit, but thats what makes it generally out of relation to other classes. Has a pretty high risk doing that damage and scrapper has through its sustain on traits and the class itself an ez run on it. I just think dps shouldnt be that easy obtainable, same as burn guard. All I'm craving for is that people put work in to get a reward in the end. You could also argue the self sustain from scrapper should be rework generally.

I think you should look at it more like this. The Engineer is a class that is designed around its kits and the kits are designed to supplement the weapons. That is why they have no other weapon swaps but that is also why their weapon selection and weapon skills are often lacklustre. None of the weapons stand competetive on their own feet, so the utility you get out of eg., the bomb kit is there to complete the hammer. The same can be said for the pistols, the rifle and so on. On their own they are not competetive and that is evident when you look at builds.

 

For example, look at Holorifle. It was pretty good build, so much that people took notice, played it and complained about it. However, it was never better than other more popular classes' options in similar roles. It is just that far more people play those other classes to voice their opinion and to establish norms. It could be argued for example that Holorifle was never better than Riflezerker. The Warrior just had so many more options while Engineers were far more tied to that one build for a power-burst oriented role. This was also evident in many other things such as how the build was regarded as pretty good but rarely played broadly, rarely played deeply (competetive on the competetive scene where those other builds on other classes flourished in that role).

 

It also got hurt much more by the nerfs to the gimmick damage. Warriors will complain about what the patch did to them but you still have a number of powerful builds, right? Holorifle on the other hand quickly disappeared and the reason you never heard more screams as that ship sunk is simply because there are so fewer voices. Rifle already had a subpar auto with everything else on it tied to utilities that were majorly hit by the CC-purity changes. So instead of alot of complaints you simply do not see people playing it anymore. This is the difference between the popular core classes and the peripheral niche classes. I'm not saying Warriors weren't nerfed in a way where you can discuss proportion, but that discussion isn't relative the Engineer and rather the other popular core classes such as Thief or Ele.

 

So, again, they can easily address the abnormal stuff that comes with the bomb kit auto. They can drop the cleave to 3. They can reduce the base damage. That however should come with changes to the kit as a whole so it is balanced out over the skills and it should come with changes to the hammer. Otherwise you risk just ripping another potential (and not very popular) role from the Engineer and leave it only with a diminished minstrel support option that entirely relies on the superspeed and stealth from gyros as an appeal after the cleanse and healing rebalance with little else going for it over, for example an Ele, where there are many more players to voice opinion and many more viable builds across modes, scales and roles.

[Justine.6351]

> @"Tyga.7056" said:

> @"Justine.6351" you simply misunderstand my point. If all those skills would require a high amount of effort put into it, to make it work I wouldn't have a single problem with it. If the new stuff means spamming an autoattack at the commanders position, I do.

 

You talk about low effort but what exactly is high effort in zerging? I have yet to see ~~a high damage~~ any meta build that people don't label as low effort because they want it nerfed because it does something useful. You say it's ok if it would be made harder to play but really what you want is the game dumbed down more because you will never be satisfied when others have learned how to play on a higher level but you are left behind and unwilling to improve.

 

Some of us prefer chess pieces,

People unwilling to learn want checkers

 

Sticks for everyone indeed.

[Deniara Devious.3948]

> @"Tyga.7056" said:

> So there are some skills that should see a change out of my BvB and GvG experience.

> **Bomb kit**: We currently have tons of engies around that run dps scrapper and its fairly too strong. Since the patch a bomb kit build has come up that does with autoattacks up to 8k hits on opponents. Doing that much damage on autoattack with low effort and high reward.

> **Alturism Rune**: Since Alturism Rune has no internal cooldown it got also pretty much abused by a lot of support scrappers. Since the function gyro got changed some months ago, you can easily use the mortar swaps to activate the rune and get stupidly insane amount of cleanses.

 

Must be complete different meta there? I play in EU tier #1 and engineers are the least played of all the 9 professions. Bomb kit looks good on paper, but in real life, not so much. The explosion comes after a significant 1 second delay, it is melee range and it is super easy to kite it. Making it basically not usable for small scale, unless you want to just flip camps, which you can do with tons of others skills as well. Previously the short fuse trait made it possible halve the bomb kit explosion delay, but that effect was removed from the trait (thus nerfed). And even with the old trait, I didn't see almost anybody use the bomb kit, because it was so bad. Big'old bomb lost the damage. So in other words. The Feb 25 2020 update nerfed the bomb kit in several ways and it didn't get any buffs.

 

In fact all engineer explosives, grenades and mortar are also easy to kite at range. Retaliation and reflects also hit hard. Bomb kit is of course no at affect by reflects.

 

Theoretically bomb kit is very high DPS in a melee range blob, but at least in EU tier #1 the basic counter against enemy melee blob is clouding meaning spreading around like a moving cloud of flies and attack mostly from range and melee attacks are hit and run. Your tight melee blob can only hit few enemies at time, meaning that bomb kit 240 radius skill will most likely just hit 1 opponent, not many. With proper clouding and picking the weak links of the blob bomb is basically an almost useless skill on your skill bar. Are you sure this is a not learn to play issue? What would stop enemy blobs from clouding?

 

If engineers were as powerful as the poster would claim, we would see much more of them.

 

 

 

 

[Turk.5460]

> @"Justine.6351" said:

> > @"Tyga.7056" said:

> > @"Justine.6351" you simply misunderstand my point. If all those skills would require a high amount of effort put into it, to make it work I wouldn't have a single problem with it. If the new stuff means spamming an autoattack at the commanders position, I do.

>

> You talk about low effort but what exactly is high effort in zerging? I have yet to see ~~a high damage~~ any meta build that people don't label as low effort because they want it nerfed because it does something useful. You say it's ok if it would be made harder to play but really what you want is the game dumbed down more because you will never be satisfied when others have learned how to play on a higher level but you are left behind and unwilling to improve.

>

> Some of us prefer chess pieces,

> People unwilling to learn want checkers

>

> Sticks for everyone indeed.

 

It doesn't sound like you want chess pieces at all. It sounds like you want rock paper scissors, and for you as rock to always be fighting scissors, but able to always choose not to fight paper.

[Tyga.7056]

 

> @"Justine.6351" said:

> > @"Tyga.7056" said:

> > @"Justine.6351" you simply misunderstand my point. If all those skills would require a high amount of effort put into it, to make it work I wouldn't have a single problem with it. If the new stuff means spamming an autoattack at the commanders position, I do.

>

> You talk about low effort but what exactly is high effort in zerging? I have yet to see ~~a high damage~~ any meta build that people don't label as low effort because they want it nerfed because it does something useful. You say it's ok if it would be made harder to play but really what you want is the game dumbed down more because you will never be satisfied when others have learned how to play on a higher level but you are left behind and unwilling to improve.

>

> Some of us prefer chess pieces,

> People unwilling to learn want checkers

>

> Sticks for everyone indeed.

 

So you basically want to say that Bomb kit engineer is not dumped down? All you basically do on this build is here and then pressing shredder gyro and else autoattack on bomb kit. If I want this build to be removed, I don't want the game to be dumped down. More so the opposite.

I'm pretty sure you don't really know how WvW looks like if you think there is no build that has a high skill cap. There is a lot you can do to play organized and fullfill a niche in a GvG or BvB.

I am also glad you know me so well to say "that I am not satisfied because others have learned how to play on a higher level and I am unwilling to improve". I play GvG since release and raid 3 times a week to improve in a team. The last thing I would do is to let myself fall if someone is better than me.

Also getting some troll vibes, so if you want me to engage into your comments you should start to give rational answers.

[Tyga.7056]

> @"Deniara Devious.3948" said:

> Must be complete different meta there? I play in EU tier #1 and engineers are the least played of all the 9 professions. Bomb kit looks good on paper, but in real life, not so much. The explosion comes after a significant 1 second delay, it is melee range and it is super easy to kite it. Making it basically not usable for small scale, unless you want to just flip camps, which you can do with tons of others skills as well. Previously the short fuse trait made it possible halve the bomb kit explosion delay, but that effect was removed from the trait (thus nerfed). And even with the old trait, I didn't see almost anybody use the bomb kit, because it was so bad. Big'old bomb lost the damage. So in other words. The Feb 25 2020 update nerfed the bomb kit in several ways and it didn't get any buffs.

>

> In fact all engineer explosives, grenades and mortar are also easy to kite at range. Retaliation and reflects also hit hard. Bomb kit is of course no at affect by reflects.

>

> Theoretically bomb kit is very high DPS in a melee range blob, but at least in EU tier #1 the basic counter against enemy melee blob is clouding meaning spreading around like a moving cloud of flies and attack mostly from range and melee attacks are hit and run. Your tight melee blob can only hit few enemies at time, meaning that bomb kit 240 radius skill will most likely just hit 1 opponent, not many. With proper clouding and picking the weak links of the blob bomb is basically an almost useless skill on your skill bar. Are you sure this is a not learn to play issue? What would stop enemy blobs from clouding?

>

> If engineers were as powerful as the poster would claim, we would see much more of them.

>

>

>

>

 

It's possible that we have different experiences, but saying that the meta is clouding is not really true tbh. But what evidence do I have other than playing WvW consistantly.

I agree that this build is not strong in small scale, but that's not what I referred to in the beginning.

There are enough videos out there that shows the potential. Bomb kit currently competes with vaults dps wise. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9tO7DHX3M8.

L2p issue with an autoattack. Thats so head ngl.

[Shroud.2307]

> @"Tyga.7056" said:

> > @"Deniara Devious.3948" said:

> > Must be complete different meta there? I play in EU tier #1 and engineers are the least played of all the 9 professions. Bomb kit looks good on paper, but in real life, not so much. The explosion comes after a significant 1 second delay, it is melee range and it is super easy to kite it. Making it basically not usable for small scale, unless you want to just flip camps, which you can do with tons of others skills as well. Previously the short fuse trait made it possible halve the bomb kit explosion delay, but that effect was removed from the trait (thus nerfed). And even with the old trait, I didn't see almost anybody use the bomb kit, because it was so bad. Big'old bomb lost the damage. So in other words. The Feb 25 2020 update nerfed the bomb kit in several ways and it didn't get any buffs.

> >

> > In fact all engineer explosives, grenades and mortar are also easy to kite at range. Retaliation and reflects also hit hard. Bomb kit is of course no at affect by reflects.

> >

> > Theoretically bomb kit is very high DPS in a melee range blob, but at least in EU tier #1 the basic counter against enemy melee blob is clouding meaning spreading around like a moving cloud of flies and attack mostly from range and melee attacks are hit and run. Your tight melee blob can only hit few enemies at time, meaning that bomb kit 240 radius skill will most likely just hit 1 opponent, not many. With proper clouding and picking the weak links of the blob bomb is basically an almost useless skill on your skill bar. Are you sure this is a not learn to play issue? What would stop enemy blobs from clouding?

> >

> > If engineers were as powerful as the poster would claim, we would see much more of them.

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> It's possible that we have different experiences, but saying that the meta is clouding is not really true tbh. But what evidence do I have other than playing WvW consistantly.

> I agree that this build is not strong in small scale, but that's not what I referred to in the beginning.

> There are enough videos out there that shows the potential. Bomb kit currently competes with vaults dps wise. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9tO7DHX3M8.

> L2p issue with an autoattack. Thats so head ngl.

 

Though I usually support changes to something that is negatively effecting small/large scale, I don't see this as much of an issue. Organized groups will be the only thing capable of pulling this off, a glass Scrapper is not going to last 10 seconds on the front line dropping Bomb Kit autos in a pug.

 

If a guild wants to abuse having a bunch of Bomb Kit Scrappers as their damage with a ton of support to keep them alive, I say fine. Because that's a pretty easy train to side step. If people want to abuse it in GvG's maybe people should consider banning certain things that are niche in their strengths in favor of keeping other areas of the game in a reasonable state.

[Justine.6351]

> @"Tyga.7056" said:

>

> > @"Justine.6351" said:

> > > @"Tyga.7056" said:

> > > @"Justine.6351" you simply misunderstand my point. If all those skills would require a high amount of effort put into it, to make it work I wouldn't have a single problem with it. If the new stuff means spamming an autoattack at the commanders position, I do.

> >

> > You talk about low effort but what exactly is high effort in zerging? I have yet to see ~~a high damage~~ any meta build that people don't label as low effort because they want it nerfed because it does something useful. You say it's ok if it would be made harder to play but really what you want is the game dumbed down more because you will never be satisfied when others have learned how to play on a higher level but you are left behind and unwilling to improve.

> >

> > Some of us prefer chess pieces,

> > People unwilling to learn want checkers

> >

> > Sticks for everyone indeed.

>

> So you basically want to say that Bomb kit engineer is not dumped down? All you basically do on this build is here and then pressing shredder gyro and else autoattack on bomb kit. If I want this build to be removed, I don't want the game to be dumped down. More so the opposite.

> I'm pretty sure you don't really know how WvW looks like if you think there is no build that has a high skill cap. There is a lot you can do to play organized and fullfill a niche in a GvG or BvB.

> I am also glad you know me so well to say "that I am not satisfied because others have learned how to play on a higher level and I am unwilling to improve". I play GvG since release and raid 3 times a week to improve in a team. The last thing I would do is to let myself fall if someone is better than me.

> Also getting some troll vibes, so if you want me to engage into your comments you should start to give rational answers.

 

I don't know the engi skills.