Sobx.1758 Posted March 29, 2020 Share Posted March 29, 2020 > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > @"Doug.4930" said: > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > @"Doug.4930" said: > > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > > > > > a) You target a person > > > > > You push 5 (black powder) = 0,5 cast > > > > > Then you push 2 (heartseeker) = 0,75 sec cast time and then he attacks > > > > > Both 1,25 sec > > > > > 1250 ms > > > > > > > > Correct > > > > > > > > > b) You dont target a person > > > > > Push 5 = 0,5 sec > > > > > Push 2 as soon a posible =0,1 -0,15 > > > > > 0.65 sec > > > > > 650 ms > > > > > > > > But this is wrong. It doesn't matter if you have a target selected or not. You gain stealth AFTER you finish the heart seeker animation. Heartseeker doesn't magically become quicker. > > > > > > > > So > > > > b) No target > > > > Push 5 = 500ms > > > > push 2 as soon as possible = still 750ms > > > > > > > > Why would an animation with 750ms cast time magically become 100ms-150ms just because you have nobody targeted? > > > > > > > > > > I just tested it . > > > The silouett goes invisble mid air here , regadles if the icon shows > > > You gain the ''Stealth'' message the moment you push 2 , not when you touch the ground ... there some render or delay problems it seems . > > > Or when other person have said that some delayreder problems in WvWvW when you get destealth (from attacking from stealth) > > > > It all hinges on the cast time, whenever cast time ends is when you gain stealth. The cast time is 750ms for heart seeker. The cast time for black powder is 500ms. Unless you have quickness the heart seeker/black powder combo is always going to take 1250ms. Doesn't matter if you have a target. Its written in the code. > > > > 1250ms. Every time. Input lag, latency or human error may make it seem to be different. But its always 1250ms. > > > > You get the ''stealth'' buff/message at the start of the combo . I don't think it matters where/when the buff message shows -instead look either at your character to see when it actually goes invis (you don't need an opponent for that for better visibility) or at your buff bar when the icon appears, it's not the start of the cast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted March 29, 2020 Share Posted March 29, 2020 > @"Jables.4659" said: > > @"UsurPator.6521" said: > > Mesmers atm have insanely high mobility > > Both of Mesmer's elite specs are straight up downgrades when it comes to WvW roaming, so when speaking of Mesmer mobility right now they basically have blink and either phase retreat or illusionary ambush. Core Mesmer mobility is surpassed by Thief, Warrior, Ele, Ranger, Shiro Rev, and many Guardian builds. Stealth is the only reason they can still solo roam effectively. > Even then the best thing to do is to spike and disengage, rinse and repeat. Unless the enemy server consists of 30% thieves in which just play something else. Why bother with mesmer when you can evade spam on thief and get the same playstyle almost? Better yet play ranger and never die once you get used to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy.5981 Posted March 29, 2020 Share Posted March 29, 2020 Leave stealth and reveals as they are. However.... Allow Thieves and Mesmers the ability to see enemy Thieves and Mesmers after they have been stealthed for 10 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > The thing is, stealth is important as an out of combat tool, these do nothing against it. Granted, thats also the reason I think Revaled skills were a misguided solution to the stealth problem, as they ignore **the central issue of stealth, people being able to engage out of stealth on an enemy who is unaware of their existence.** In-combat stealth would be bad even if these didnt exist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No offence, but if stealth didn't allow you to attack people that are unaware of your presence, what exactly would be the point of it? > > > > > > > > > > > > To allow you to reposition unseen and attack from unexpected angles? Its supposed to be used primarily in-combat. > > > > > Fair, but case of point, on my current high spike build I use hide in shadows and shadow meld to get 9s of stealth, 13s with the two dodges, which if I choose my vantage point carefully is enough to approach and spike almost anyone. These are the only skills I have for stealth so I'm not building for permastealth by any means, but the only way to stop me from having that engage potential is to remove out of combat stealth entirely, and as you rightly say out of combat stealth isn't really a problem. You can't fix the problem by nerfing damage numbers either. To my mind, catching people off guard is the reason people complain about stealth, but it's also pretty much the entire point of it. > > > > > > > > I don't think it has much to do with thieves having stealth openers. It's more the unrestricted use of stealth in combat. Stealth is fine and many games have it in some form or another. But only GW2 was stupid enough to allow virtually no restrictions and hardly any available counters. That is simply horrible design. > > > > > > It only has to do with thieves having stealth openers. The stealth in-combat is already underpowered as is. Out of Combat is a problem in every game that has it, that usually requires major restrictions or specially added counterplay. In-combat stealth however is rarely a problem. Same with GW2. In-combat stealth is already trivially easy to counter using AoEs and Cleave, let alone the revealed skills. > > > > Yes, of course, Mr. Thief. There is absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever with being able to stealth at will, with no cooldown, becoming completely invisible, with most classes having no access to reveal and the only the ability to blindly spam area effects...against a class that also has virtually unlimited mobility as well. It's just us scrubs whining about stealth openers, naturally. How silly of me to bring it up! LoL > > > > "With no cooldown". Intiative is a global cooldown. You also have revealed between uses. There is a cooldown. And yeah, there is no problem with it, other than it being so underpowered, thieves dont actually *use* in-combat stealth. Its slow, telegraphed, and just gives your opponent free damage. Keep in mind, Im playing Engineer. And Im not even using Lock-On, not even when facing thief. You know why? Because its a redundant trait and worse than streamlined kits, because of how trivially easy it is to deal with in-combat stealth. They try to stealth up, I chuck a nade Barrage at them, and they get downed. Well, the bad thieves, anyway. The good ones dont even try to stealth up, they just shortbow 5 and go away. > > > Edit: FWIW, I play stealth ambush classes like mesmer and I'm completely fine with stealth openers. What I am not fine with is classes having multiple sources of in-combat stealth with low or no cooldown, the result being automatic disengage with little ability for enemies to stop you. You want to appear right on top of me out of nowhere and chunk half my health in one go? Fine! But you better be an available target from there on! > > If the thief wants to disengage, theyre not going to use stealth, because its not "automatic disengage" but rather "free damage for the opponent". Theyre going to switch to Shortbow, and Shortbow 5 away. And *that* you indeed cant stop. Anyway, no, Stealth openers, on any class, are the problem. You shouldnt be allowed to do massive damage to an opponent who didnt even know you were there. In-combat stealth is actually really weak, precisely because of how easily it is punished. There really isn't anything weak about being able to go completely invisible at will in the middle of a fight. Worse, it's about the most annoying thing I can think of to fight against, even when the classes who can do it are currently pretty weak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > The thing is, stealth is important as an out of combat tool, these do nothing against it. Granted, thats also the reason I think Revaled skills were a misguided solution to the stealth problem, as they ignore **the central issue of stealth, people being able to engage out of stealth on an enemy who is unaware of their existence.** In-combat stealth would be bad even if these didnt exist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No offence, but if stealth didn't allow you to attack people that are unaware of your presence, what exactly would be the point of it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To allow you to reposition unseen and attack from unexpected angles? Its supposed to be used primarily in-combat. > > > > > > Fair, but case of point, on my current high spike build I use hide in shadows and shadow meld to get 9s of stealth, 13s with the two dodges, which if I choose my vantage point carefully is enough to approach and spike almost anyone. These are the only skills I have for stealth so I'm not building for permastealth by any means, but the only way to stop me from having that engage potential is to remove out of combat stealth entirely, and as you rightly say out of combat stealth isn't really a problem. You can't fix the problem by nerfing damage numbers either. To my mind, catching people off guard is the reason people complain about stealth, but it's also pretty much the entire point of it. > > > > > > > > > > I don't think it has much to do with thieves having stealth openers. It's more the unrestricted use of stealth in combat. Stealth is fine and many games have it in some form or another. But only GW2 was stupid enough to allow virtually no restrictions and hardly any available counters. That is simply horrible design. > > > > > > > > It only has to do with thieves having stealth openers. The stealth in-combat is already underpowered as is. Out of Combat is a problem in every game that has it, that usually requires major restrictions or specially added counterplay. In-combat stealth however is rarely a problem. Same with GW2. In-combat stealth is already trivially easy to counter using AoEs and Cleave, let alone the revealed skills. > > > > > > Yes, of course, Mr. Thief. There is absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever with being able to stealth at will, with no cooldown, becoming completely invisible, with most classes having no access to reveal and the only the ability to blindly spam area effects...against a class that also has virtually unlimited mobility as well. It's just us scrubs whining about stealth openers, naturally. How silly of me to bring it up! LoL > > > > > > > "With no cooldown". Intiative is a global cooldown. You also have revealed between uses. There is a cooldown. And yeah, there is no problem with it, other than it being so underpowered, thieves dont actually *use* in-combat stealth. Its slow, telegraphed, and just gives your opponent free damage. Keep in mind, Im playing Engineer. And Im not even using Lock-On, not even when facing thief. You know why? Because its a redundant trait and worse than streamlined kits, because of how trivially easy it is to deal with in-combat stealth. They try to stealth up, I chuck a nade Barrage at them, and they get downed. Well, the bad thieves, anyway. The good ones dont even try to stealth up, they just shortbow 5 and go away. > > > > > Edit: FWIW, I play stealth ambush classes like mesmer and I'm completely fine with stealth openers. What I am not fine with is classes having multiple sources of in-combat stealth with low or no cooldown, the result being automatic disengage with little ability for enemies to stop you. You want to appear right on top of me out of nowhere and chunk half my health in one go? Fine! But you better be an available target from there on! > > > > If the thief wants to disengage, theyre not going to use stealth, because its not "automatic disengage" but rather "free damage for the opponent". Theyre going to switch to Shortbow, and Shortbow 5 away. And *that* you indeed cant stop. Anyway, no, Stealth openers, on any class, are the problem. You shouldnt be allowed to do massive damage to an opponent who didnt even know you were there. In-combat stealth is actually really weak, precisely because of how easily it is punished. > > There really isn't anything weak about being able to go completely invisible at will in the middle of a fight. Worse, it's about the most annoying thing I can think of to fight against, even when the classes who can do it are currently pretty weak. Inherently it already has a weakness. While in stealth, you cant fight back, but you can be hit. So baseline youre just taking free damage. The problem is that going into stealth mid-combat also usually takes quite some time, and lets your opponent hit you during it. While it has no real benefit, as youre not gonna get a backstab from in-combat stealth, and as I said, if you wanna run, you just use shortbow 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killthehealersffs.8940 Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 Nvm , you said to remove the oppenerhuge dps We are cool Cya Where is that Sobx and ArlAlt .....85% me... need to be assured of something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > The thing is, stealth is important as an out of combat tool, these do nothing against it. Granted, thats also the reason I think Revaled skills were a misguided solution to the stealth problem, as they ignore **the central issue of stealth, people being able to engage out of stealth on an enemy who is unaware of their existence.** In-combat stealth would be bad even if these didnt exist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No offence, but if stealth didn't allow you to attack people that are unaware of your presence, what exactly would be the point of it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To allow you to reposition unseen and attack from unexpected angles? Its supposed to be used primarily in-combat. > > > > > > > > Fair, but case of point, on my current high spike build I use hide in shadows and shadow meld to get 9s of stealth, 13s with the two dodges, which if I choose my vantage point carefully is enough to approach and spike almost anyone. These are the only skills I have for stealth so I'm not building for permastealth by any means, but the only way to stop me from having that engage potential is to remove out of combat stealth entirely, and as you rightly say out of combat stealth isn't really a problem. You can't fix the problem by nerfing damage numbers either. To my mind, catching people off guard is the reason people complain about stealth, but it's also pretty much the entire point of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think it has much to do with thieves having stealth openers. It's more the unrestricted use of stealth in combat. Stealth is fine and many games have it in some form or another. But only GW2 was stupid enough to allow virtually no restrictions and hardly any available counters. That is simply horrible design. > > > > > > > > > > > > It only has to do with thieves having stealth openers. The stealth in-combat is already underpowered as is. Out of Combat is a problem in every game that has it, that usually requires major restrictions or specially added counterplay. In-combat stealth however is rarely a problem. Same with GW2. In-combat stealth is already trivially easy to counter using AoEs and Cleave, let alone the revealed skills. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, of course, Mr. Thief. There is absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever with being able to stealth at will, with no cooldown, becoming completely invisible, with most classes having no access to reveal and the only the ability to blindly spam area effects...against a class that also has virtually unlimited mobility as well. It's just us scrubs whining about stealth openers, naturally. How silly of me to bring it up! LoL > > > > > > > > > > > > > "With no cooldown". Intiative is a global cooldown. You also have revealed between uses. There is a cooldown. And yeah, there is no problem with it, other than it being so underpowered, thieves dont actually *use* in-combat stealth. Its slow, telegraphed, and just gives your opponent free damage. Keep in mind, Im playing Engineer. And Im not even using Lock-On, not even when facing thief. You know why? Because its a redundant trait and worse than streamlined kits, because of how trivially easy it is to deal with in-combat stealth. They try to stealth up, I chuck a nade Barrage at them, and they get downed. Well, the bad thieves, anyway. The good ones dont even try to stealth up, they just shortbow 5 and go away. > > > > > > > > > Edit: FWIW, I play stealth ambush classes like mesmer and I'm completely fine with stealth openers. What I am not fine with is classes having multiple sources of in-combat stealth with low or no cooldown, the result being automatic disengage with little ability for enemies to stop you. You want to appear right on top of me out of nowhere and chunk half my health in one go? Fine! But you better be an available target from there on! > > > > > > > > If the thief wants to disengage, theyre not going to use stealth, because its not "automatic disengage" but rather "free damage for the opponent". Theyre going to switch to Shortbow, and Shortbow 5 away. And *that* you indeed cant stop. Anyway, no, Stealth openers, on any class, are the problem. You shouldnt be allowed to do massive damage to an opponent who didnt even know you were there. In-combat stealth is actually really weak, precisely because of how easily it is punished. > > > > > > There really isn't anything weak about being able to go completely invisible at will in the middle of a fight. Worse, it's about the most annoying thing I can think of to fight against, even when the classes who can do it are currently pretty weak. > > > > Inherently it already has a weakness. While in stealth, you cant fight back, but you can be hit. So baseline youre just taking free damage. The problem is that going into stealth mid-combat also usually takes quite some time, and lets your opponent hit you during it. While it has no real benefit, as youre not gonna get a backstab from in-combat stealth, and as I said, if you wanna run, you just use shortbow 5. > > a) you can dodge (x3 if you are daredevil) and avoid any attacks Not in the process of obtaining stealth. Sides, he can do that without stealth too, stealth just forces him to burn evades if he wants to avoid damage. > b) He waste attacks , while you might be on his left-right-back . Backstab works with 3 directions He will not. He knows exactly where you are, and he can 100% ensure, short of you using Shadowstep, that you are in a cone in front of him. Nowhere else. > c) 0,7 sec and having a leap to reposition yourself , its not long enought for an ingame stealth ...not like 2 sec from DOTA > Its 1.25 seconds. And its quite long, especially in a game where burst damage skills take much less than that. Dota 2 has most stealth enter nearly instantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killthehealersffs.8940 Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing is, stealth is important as an out of combat tool, these do nothing against it. Granted, thats also the reason I think Revaled skills were a misguided solution to the stealth problem, as they ignore **the central issue of stealth, people being able to engage out of stealth on an enemy who is unaware of their existence.** In-combat stealth would be bad even if these didnt exist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No offence, but if stealth didn't allow you to attack people that are unaware of your presence, what exactly would be the point of it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To allow you to reposition unseen and attack from unexpected angles? Its supposed to be used primarily in-combat. > > > > > > > > > Fair, but case of point, on my current high spike build I use hide in shadows and shadow meld to get 9s of stealth, 13s with the two dodges, which if I choose my vantage point carefully is enough to approach and spike almost anyone. These are the only skills I have for stealth so I'm not building for permastealth by any means, but the only way to stop me from having that engage potential is to remove out of combat stealth entirely, and as you rightly say out of combat stealth isn't really a problem. You can't fix the problem by nerfing damage numbers either. To my mind, catching people off guard is the reason people complain about stealth, but it's also pretty much the entire point of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think it has much to do with thieves having stealth openers. It's more the unrestricted use of stealth in combat. Stealth is fine and many games have it in some form or another. But only GW2 was stupid enough to allow virtually no restrictions and hardly any available counters. That is simply horrible design. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It only has to do with thieves having stealth openers. The stealth in-combat is already underpowered as is. Out of Combat is a problem in every game that has it, that usually requires major restrictions or specially added counterplay. In-combat stealth however is rarely a problem. Same with GW2. In-combat stealth is already trivially easy to counter using AoEs and Cleave, let alone the revealed skills. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, of course, Mr. Thief. There is absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever with being able to stealth at will, with no cooldown, becoming completely invisible, with most classes having no access to reveal and the only the ability to blindly spam area effects...against a class that also has virtually unlimited mobility as well. It's just us scrubs whining about stealth openers, naturally. How silly of me to bring it up! LoL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "With no cooldown". Intiative is a global cooldown. You also have revealed between uses. There is a cooldown. And yeah, there is no problem with it, other than it being so underpowered, thieves dont actually *use* in-combat stealth. Its slow, telegraphed, and just gives your opponent free damage. Keep in mind, Im playing Engineer. And Im not even using Lock-On, not even when facing thief. You know why? Because its a redundant trait and worse than streamlined kits, because of how trivially easy it is to deal with in-combat stealth. They try to stealth up, I chuck a nade Barrage at them, and they get downed. Well, the bad thieves, anyway. The good ones dont even try to stealth up, they just shortbow 5 and go away. > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: FWIW, I play stealth ambush classes like mesmer and I'm completely fine with stealth openers. What I am not fine with is classes having multiple sources of in-combat stealth with low or no cooldown, the result being automatic disengage with little ability for enemies to stop you. You want to appear right on top of me out of nowhere and chunk half my health in one go? Fine! But you better be an available target from there on! > > > > > > > > > > If the thief wants to disengage, theyre not going to use stealth, because its not "automatic disengage" but rather "free damage for the opponent". Theyre going to switch to Shortbow, and Shortbow 5 away. And *that* you indeed cant stop. Anyway, no, Stealth openers, on any class, are the problem. You shouldnt be allowed to do massive damage to an opponent who didnt even know you were there. In-combat stealth is actually really weak, precisely because of how easily it is punished. > > > > > > > > There really isn't anything weak about being able to go completely invisible at will in the middle of a fight. Worse, it's about the most annoying thing I can think of to fight against, even when the classes who can do it are currently pretty weak. > > > > > > Inherently it already has a weakness. While in stealth, you cant fight back, but you can be hit. So baseline youre just taking free damage. The problem is that going into stealth mid-combat also usually takes quite some time, and lets your opponent hit you during it. While it has no real benefit, as youre not gonna get a backstab from in-combat stealth, and as I said, if you wanna run, you just use shortbow 5. > > > > a) you can dodge (x3 if you are daredevil) and avoid any attacks > > Not in the process of obtaining stealth. Sides, he can do that without stealth too, stealth just forces him to burn evades if he wants to avoid damage. > > > b) He waste attacks , while you might be on his left-right-back . Backstab works with 3 directions > > He will not. He knows exactly where you are, and he can 100% ensure, short of you using Shadowstep, that you are in a cone in front of him. Nowhere else. > > > c) 0,7 sec and having a leap to reposition yourself , its not long enought for an ingame stealth ...not like 2 sec from DOTA > > > > Its 1.25 seconds. And its quite long, especially in a game where burst damage skills take much less than that. Dota 2 has most stealth enter nearly instantly. > > You can stay in his cone and do a side dodge and infront of him to go in his side , while stealth https://imgur.com/a/gg9ehPA Heartseeker has a leep effect . You can go in his back using it (or run away) and then turn with a dodge on his right side for a backstab edit: As i said above : Nvm , you said to remove the oppenerhuge dps We are cool Cya Where is that Sobx and ArlAlt .....85% like me... need to be assured of something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing is, stealth is important as an out of combat tool, these do nothing against it. Granted, thats also the reason I think Revaled skills were a misguided solution to the stealth problem, as they ignore **the central issue of stealth, people being able to engage out of stealth on an enemy who is unaware of their existence.** In-combat stealth would be bad even if these didnt exist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No offence, but if stealth didn't allow you to attack people that are unaware of your presence, what exactly would be the point of it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To allow you to reposition unseen and attack from unexpected angles? Its supposed to be used primarily in-combat. > > > > > > > > > > Fair, but case of point, on my current high spike build I use hide in shadows and shadow meld to get 9s of stealth, 13s with the two dodges, which if I choose my vantage point carefully is enough to approach and spike almost anyone. These are the only skills I have for stealth so I'm not building for permastealth by any means, but the only way to stop me from having that engage potential is to remove out of combat stealth entirely, and as you rightly say out of combat stealth isn't really a problem. You can't fix the problem by nerfing damage numbers either. To my mind, catching people off guard is the reason people complain about stealth, but it's also pretty much the entire point of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think it has much to do with thieves having stealth openers. It's more the unrestricted use of stealth in combat. Stealth is fine and many games have it in some form or another. But only GW2 was stupid enough to allow virtually no restrictions and hardly any available counters. That is simply horrible design. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It only has to do with thieves having stealth openers. The stealth in-combat is already underpowered as is. Out of Combat is a problem in every game that has it, that usually requires major restrictions or specially added counterplay. In-combat stealth however is rarely a problem. Same with GW2. In-combat stealth is already trivially easy to counter using AoEs and Cleave, let alone the revealed skills. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, of course, Mr. Thief. There is absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever with being able to stealth at will, with no cooldown, becoming completely invisible, with most classes having no access to reveal and the only the ability to blindly spam area effects...against a class that also has virtually unlimited mobility as well. It's just us scrubs whining about stealth openers, naturally. How silly of me to bring it up! LoL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "With no cooldown". Intiative is a global cooldown. You also have revealed between uses. There is a cooldown. And yeah, there is no problem with it, other than it being so underpowered, thieves dont actually *use* in-combat stealth. Its slow, telegraphed, and just gives your opponent free damage. Keep in mind, Im playing Engineer. And Im not even using Lock-On, not even when facing thief. You know why? Because its a redundant trait and worse than streamlined kits, because of how trivially easy it is to deal with in-combat stealth. They try to stealth up, I chuck a nade Barrage at them, and they get downed. Well, the bad thieves, anyway. The good ones dont even try to stealth up, they just shortbow 5 and go away. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: FWIW, I play stealth ambush classes like mesmer and I'm completely fine with stealth openers. What I am not fine with is classes having multiple sources of in-combat stealth with low or no cooldown, the result being automatic disengage with little ability for enemies to stop you. You want to appear right on top of me out of nowhere and chunk half my health in one go? Fine! But you better be an available target from there on! > > > > > > > > > > > > If the thief wants to disengage, theyre not going to use stealth, because its not "automatic disengage" but rather "free damage for the opponent". Theyre going to switch to Shortbow, and Shortbow 5 away. And *that* you indeed cant stop. Anyway, no, Stealth openers, on any class, are the problem. You shouldnt be allowed to do massive damage to an opponent who didnt even know you were there. In-combat stealth is actually really weak, precisely because of how easily it is punished. > > > > > > > > > > There really isn't anything weak about being able to go completely invisible at will in the middle of a fight. Worse, it's about the most annoying thing I can think of to fight against, even when the classes who can do it are currently pretty weak. > > > > > > > > Inherently it already has a weakness. While in stealth, you cant fight back, but you can be hit. So baseline youre just taking free damage. The problem is that going into stealth mid-combat also usually takes quite some time, and lets your opponent hit you during it. While it has no real benefit, as youre not gonna get a backstab from in-combat stealth, and as I said, if you wanna run, you just use shortbow 5. > > > > > > a) you can dodge (x3 if you are daredevil) and avoid any attacks > > > > Not in the process of obtaining stealth. Sides, he can do that without stealth too, stealth just forces him to burn evades if he wants to avoid damage. > > > > > b) He waste attacks , while you might be on his left-right-back . Backstab works with 3 directions > > > > He will not. He knows exactly where you are, and he can 100% ensure, short of you using Shadowstep, that you are in a cone in front of him. Nowhere else. > > > > > c) 0,7 sec and having a leap to reposition yourself , its not long enought for an ingame stealth ...not like 2 sec from DOTA > > > > > > > Its 1.25 seconds. And its quite long, especially in a game where burst damage skills take much less than that. Dota 2 has most stealth enter nearly instantly. > > > > > > You can stay in his cone and do a side dodge and infront of him to go in his side , while stealth > https://imgur.com/a/gg9ehPA > Heartseeker has a leep effect . You can go in his back using it (or run away) and then turn with a dodge on his right side for a backstab > You cant. You need to cover way too much distance. Dodging through him would work better, but it still doesnt work. And they dodge backwards on the Heartseeker. No need to take unneccessary damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > Where is that Sobx and ArlAlt .....85% me... need to be assured of something . > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > Where is that Sobx and ArlAlt .....85% like me... need to be assured of something What do you mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virdo.1540 Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 Main problem (at least how i +guild see) is the permastealth. Its just broken and destroys game mechanics. Stealth has to become an non-stackable buff ,like superspeed. what about Reveals? Forget them. People are cleansing them away or blocking or evading them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now