A roamer's plea to balance stealth/reveal abilities next

[kash.9213]

> @"Svarty.8019" said:

> > @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> > > @"Heibi.4251" said:

> > >

> > > So once a thief comes out of stealth many soulbeasts use it to stop the constant stealth spam so many thieves have.

> >

> > the best way to punish a Thief is to use Sic 'Em right when they try to leap through Pistol #5's Smoke Field.

>

> Thanks for the tip, **but the superheroic reaction-time required to pull off this miracle** is not something most humans possess.

> It's certainly not a mechanic appropriate for a game played on the internet ... which has... you know... delays.

> I get that counterplay *can* exist, you see it on internet videos by especially good players who probably live near the servers, but honestly ... not in reality, not for normal folks.

> For normal players you see the thief put his circle down and by the time you've hit your Sic 'Em, you don't have a target anymore.

>

 

You sure maybe adrenaline isn't speeding things up a little? I feel like even a Scorpion Wire would tag that and it's not super fast or even the most reliable.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

> @"Doug.4930" said:

> > @"Svarty.8019" said:

> > Thanks for the tip, but the superheroic reaction-time required to pull off this miracle is not something most humans possess.

> > For normal players you see the thief put his circle down and by the time you've hit your Sic 'Em, you don't have a target anymore.

>

> I've actually made a thread in the past suggesting that stealth through combo abilities shouldn't stack with stealth gained through skills as a fair nerf.

>

> But super human reflexes? The average human reaction time is 200 milliseconds, the combined cast time for black powder + heart seeker is 1250 milliseconds assuming they queue the skills perfectly. Sicem is an instant cast. Even with a ping of 500ms you would still have a window that's three times as long as the average persons reaction time to press a single button and screw their combo. So a person running with 500 ping who's twice as slow as your average joe in reaction time would still be able pull that off.

>

 

If you use heartseker + Black poweder combo , then yes there s delay because Heartseeker animation must ends before it can attack .

You can bypass that by casting the Black Poweder+ que the heartseeker , without a target .

You will leap in the direction you want/reposition + do the heartseeker if the enemy is your path + remain stealth + having a Blind field harashing the enemy if the enemy is nearby ... at 0,65 sec animation

 

(Lure trap ..waiting for the right person...

he will come to me... it will be called selfdefence )

 

https://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/statistics

https://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime

284 ms + 30ms from lag , if you have preaty ok pc specs (framerate) or good internet speed ....

1300kB/s , 94 Kb/s upload for 2 family pcs..

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

give every class a autotarget big range aoe reveal skill + a immovability aoe range effect... that could hit stealth lol.

[Jski.6180]

Remove leaping though a smoke field giving you a stealth but give it a smoke aura that stealth you when your hit and reviles the person hitting you. I think it would go a long way to fixing the game if anet reworks combos and adds in auras for all field types that have both a on hit boon like effect and a on hit condi like effect. Yes you can still blast smoke fields to give stealth but its a bit harder to do it safe unlike leaps.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > The thing is, stealth is important as an out of combat tool, these do nothing against it. Granted, thats also the reason I think Revaled skills were a misguided solution to the stealth problem, as they ignore **the central issue of stealth, people being able to engage out of stealth on an enemy who is unaware of their existence.** In-combat stealth would be bad even if these didnt exist.

> >

> > No offence, but if stealth didn't allow you to attack people that are unaware of your presence, what exactly would be the point of it?

>

> To allow you to reposition unseen and attack from unexpected angles? Its supposed to be used primarily in-combat.

Fair, but case of point, on my current high spike build I use hide in shadows and shadow meld to get 9s of stealth, 13s with the two dodges, which if I choose my vantage point carefully is enough to approach and spike almost anyone. These are the only skills I have for stealth so I'm not building for permastealth by any means, but the only way to stop me from having that engage potential is to remove out of combat stealth entirely, and as you rightly say out of combat stealth isn't really a problem. You can't fix the problem by nerfing damage numbers either. To my mind, catching people off guard is the reason people complain about stealth, but it's also pretty much the entire point of it.

[aleron.1438]

> @"Ben.2160" said:

> Stealth sure does need a good looking at. We had a perma-stealth rifle deadeye lurking in our tower (SE desert). Literally he'd vanish to reappear for about 0.1 of a second halfway around the tower. He'd hide in out of LOS spots just to re-stealth when any got close. He would wait till someone was alone out of stealth, pew pew for half there health to instantly vanish and reappear a fair distance away for the second shot to down them. Straight back to stealth to stomp. I was on my ranger, I could not reveal him with sic em as he simply used his elite skill to loose it and off he'd go again. and again and again. In the end he got over confident when some of his server mates destroyed the wall and we got him. I've seen him many times. He always stuck to the south Desert, always abusing stealth to attack people. Only he'd tend to slip up with over confidence. Ie go for a stealth stomp with an ally reaper using death shroud to cleave atop their downed ally.

>

> Sorry, this type of build is without argument the most obnoxious, most annoying, most pathetic build imaginable! Least since the patch the one shot capability of this build has gone but it simply should not exist. Near perma stealth, very high mobility, a strong burst it's just frustrating. Least this build is now not so prevalent as it once was. I remember the time the perma-stealth dead eye was everywhere (shudder). Thing is I've faced many thieves since the patch many of whom running daredevil or core. Who don't abuse stealth. Now these have been more interesting and fair fights. I even managed to get a few high level systematic abuse players on their thieves, which I consider a very good achievement. When fighting I want to be able to see my opponent, not having to look around constantly when they vanish into thin air or click on them when they do reappear. Is deadeye/stealth the only broken build/mechanic? No. But the ability to spam it constantly to almost no counter play is the issue. Especially when thieves already have plenty of evades and escapes options to aid them in a fight. Stealth should be of limited use(non combat, outside of enemy towers/keeps) and sparingly as a panic button in combat.

 

Care to elaborate the part where since you said he's been doing the same thing over and over again in that desert keep how your stealth trap ruined his day or when you used sic'em on him and saved lb#4 interrupt on his Shadow meld cast to then #2RF to kill him and while RF doing its casting you had the time to toss a target painter.

 

Looking forward to your feedback

 

[aleron.1438]

It's like most of you are forgetting how inefficient that type of perma steathing is AND was!

How many kills per minute did the DE in the desert keep do? Be honest. Not just downing people but actually finishing em off/stomp. 1 per minute? 1 in 3min? That's inefficient as hell. Any true roamer or zerger will know of dozen specs that can kill more efficiently than that.

[Dralor.3701]

Thief stealth is broken and needs to be redesigned. It isn’t fun for the thief or the people playing against them.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

Just to post on topic, I don't really have a problem with any of the reveal skills in the game as is atm:

 

Detection pulse had a massive nerf being moved to cleanse gyro, so it's hardly taken compared to before that change.

 

DH spear has always been a "dodge this or suffer" type of skill, given that if you land it you can pull the thief mid evade. It shuts down a lot of thief options which is fine because landing it ought to punish the thief heavily, the only thing to do is use a stun break to break the pull before you hit the traps or to port out of range to break the tether.

 

Lock on is annoying as it's next to impossible to avoid, but given holosmith lost a LOT of damage on their CC's last patch it's not anywhere near as hard to deal with as it was. If anything I'd say holo needs a bit of a buff right now, as it's basically not a threat compared to before the patch.

 

Same for Sic 'em, damage from soulbeast isn't on a "2 hits and I'm dead" sort of level anymore so it's actually fine. Besides, the fact that the majority of soulbeasts will spam the skill off cooldown makes it really predictable, so it's easy to deal with on DE if you have shadow meld. It also requires a target, meaning if you kill the ranger before he can use it you're fine.

 

The only ones that can be really annoying are the warrior shout and the rev facet, mostly because they're AoE and you can't really react to them being cast. That said, AoE reveal is something that ought to exist to counter scrapper's stealth gyro, so that's fine imo.

 

If I have a problem with ANYTHING, it's the amount of marked coming off sentries, towers, and the fact that any random guy can use a target painter trick and ruin your day. Even then I don't have so much of a problem, as:

1) you should have to plan your routes while roaming in enemy territory, esp if stuff is upgraded

2) most camps can be reached through other routes if you know where the marked zones are, and

3) honestly if I wind someone up enough to the point they start randomly throwing target painters at dark corners that's a win for me in and of itself.

[Ben.2160]

> @"aleron.1438" said:

> It's like most of you are forgetting how inefficient that type of perma steathing is AND was!

> How many kills per minute did the DE in the desert keep do? Be honest. Not just downing people but actually finishing em off/stomp. 1 per minute? 1 in 3min? That's inefficient as hell. Any true roamer or zerger will know of dozen specs that can kill more efficiently than that.

 

ROFL! Are you serious? Perma Stealth dead eyes were very capable of downing and finishing an opponent without ever leaving stealth. In the past on multiple builds and classes I would be victim to these players. Literally Bam! What the look around who? What Where? Finished! By a ghost?! Wait ten seconds Oh no there's the dead eye on the horizon off to find his next victim. Regarding the tower - Yes, in hindsight I should of used a target painter or maybe the two others searching the tower (forgot at the time). It wasn't the kills that were the issue with the DE. More that A-net in their infinite wisdom gave thief portals. So if we left. He'd just portal his pals in nice and easy tower cap. No supply/siege wasted. Any good commander after flipping a keep or killing invaders that breached inner would give a call out to check for mesmers and thieves for this exact reason. And yes, this tactic whilst sneaky has worked in my favour a few times - thief portals should never of been implemented.

 

 

Oh and this DE, I did catch him many times outside of the tower with LB4 and RF on many occasions before hand. In the tower though he'd learnt to counter better. He also had a troll like name but not allowed to reveal on here. Unlike him I wasn't sticking to one part of one borderland either. I had better things to do. Besides his over confidence always back fired on him.

 

Oh and I see your a DE yourself. Care to give feedback on why plentiful evades and high mobility aren't enough for your class?

 

p.s I have a dead eye myself. Never use her in WvW.

 

 

[Doug.4930]

> @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said:

> > @"Doug.4930" said:

> > > @"Svarty.8019" said:

> > > Thanks for the tip, but the superheroic reaction-time required to pull off this miracle is not something most humans possess.

> > > For normal players you see the thief put his circle down and by the time you've hit your Sic 'Em, you don't have a target anymore.

> >

> > I've actually made a thread in the past suggesting that stealth through combo abilities shouldn't stack with stealth gained through skills as a fair nerf.

> >

> > But super human reflexes? The average human reaction time is 200 milliseconds, the combined cast time for black powder + heart seeker is 1250 milliseconds assuming they queue the skills perfectly. Sicem is an instant cast. Even with a ping of 500ms you would still have a window that's three times as long as the average persons reaction time to press a single button and screw their combo. So a person running with 500 ping who's twice as slow as your average joe in reaction time would still be able pull that off.

> >

>

> If you use heartseker + Black poweder combo , then yes there s delay because Heartseeker animation must ends before it can attack .

> You can bypass that by casting the Black Poweder+ que the heartseeker , without a target .

> You will leap in the direction you want/reposition + do the heartseeker if the enemy is your path + remain stealth + having a Blind field harashing the enemy if the enemy is nearby ... at 0,65 sec animation

>

> (Lure trap ..waiting for the right person...

> he will come to me... it will be called selfdefence )

>

> https://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/statistics

> https://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime

> 284 ms + 30ms from lag , if you have preaty ok pc specs (framerate) or good internet speed ....

> 1300kB/s , 94 Kb/s upload for 2 family pcs..

 

I'm having a little trouble understanding your post. Are you talking about the thief already being in stealth when doing the 5---2 combo? If the thief does exactly what you say which is cast black powder + queue the heart seeker without a target, that still leaves a 1250 millisecond window in which to press a single button.

 

But perhaps I've misunderstood I really had trouble comprehending what you're trying to say.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

> @"Doug.4930" said:

> > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said:

> > > @"Doug.4930" said:

> > > > @"Svarty.8019" said:

> > > > Thanks for the tip, but the superheroic reaction-time required to pull off this miracle is not something most humans possess.

> > > > For normal players you see the thief put his circle down and by the time you've hit your Sic 'Em, you don't have a target anymore.

> > >

> > > I've actually made a thread in the past suggesting that stealth through combo abilities shouldn't stack with stealth gained through skills as a fair nerf.

> > >

> > > But super human reflexes? The average human reaction time is 200 milliseconds, the combined cast time for black powder + heart seeker is 1250 milliseconds assuming they queue the skills perfectly. Sicem is an instant cast. Even with a ping of 500ms you would still have a window that's three times as long as the average persons reaction time to press a single button and screw their combo. So a person running with 500 ping who's twice as slow as your average joe in reaction time would still be able pull that off.

> > >

> >

> > If you use heartseker + Black poweder combo , then yes there s delay because Heartseeker animation must ends before it can attack .

> > You can bypass that by casting the Black Poweder+ que the heartseeker , without a target .

> > You will leap in the direction you want/reposition + do the heartseeker if the enemy is your path + remain stealth + having a Blind field harashing the enemy if the enemy is nearby ... at 0,65 sec animation

> >

> > (Lure trap ..waiting for the right person...

> > he will come to me... it will be called selfdefence )

> >

> > https://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/statistics

> > https://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime

> > 284 ms + 30ms from lag , if you have preaty ok pc specs (framerate) or good internet speed ....

> > 1300kB/s , 94 Kb/s upload for 2 family pcs..

>

> I'm having a little trouble understanding your post. Are you talking about the thief already being in stealth when doing the 5---2 combo? If the thief does exactly what you say which is cast black powder + queue the heart seeker without a target, that still leaves a 1250 millisecond window in which to press a single button.

>

> But perhaps I've misunderstood I really had trouble comprehending what you're trying to say.

 

a) You target a person

You push 5 (black powder) = 0,5 cast

Then you push 2 (heartseeker) = 0,75 sec cast time and then he attacks

Both 1,25 sec

1250 ms

 

b) You dont target a person

Push 5 = 0,5 sec

Push 2 as soon a posible =0,1 -0,15

0.65 sec

650 ms

 

You will do a leap , 450 yard forward

If your target is infront of you , he will be hit by heartseeker , without you getting destealth

 

Technicly both are 1,25 sec cast time .

But the one is 1,25 in your face forcing you to stay on his aoes , the other does the attack + allow you to reposition/go out of aoes for some easy stealth attack

 

Its something i cannot simply describe you . Just create 1 lvl thief and go in the PvP area . Dont target anything and push 5 and as fast as posible the 2 , near the golems.

And check the normal way with targeting

And immagine a hypothetical fire of the Npc feet

[Doug.4930]

> @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said:

 

> a) You target a person

> You push 5 (black powder) = 0,5 cast

> Then you push 2 (heartseeker) = 0,75 sec cast time and then he attacks

> Both 1,25 sec

> 1250 ms

 

Correct

 

> b) You dont target a person

> Push 5 = 0,5 sec

> Push 2 as soon a posible =0,1 -0,15

> 0.65 sec

> 650 ms

 

But this is wrong. It doesn't matter if you have a target selected or not. You gain stealth AFTER you finish the heart seeker animation. Heartseeker doesn't magically become quicker because you have no target.

 

So

b) No target

Push 5 = 500ms

push 2 as soon as possible = still 750ms

 

Why would an animation with 750ms cast time magically become 100ms-150ms just because you have nobody targeted?

 

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

> @"Doug.4930" said:

> > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said:

>

> > a) You target a person

> > You push 5 (black powder) = 0,5 cast

> > Then you push 2 (heartseeker) = 0,75 sec cast time and then he attacks

> > Both 1,25 sec

> > 1250 ms

>

> Correct

>

> > b) You dont target a person

> > Push 5 = 0,5 sec

> > Push 2 as soon a posible =0,1 -0,15

> > 0.65 sec

> > 650 ms

>

> But this is wrong. It doesn't matter if you have a target selected or not. You gain stealth AFTER you finish the heart seeker animation. Heartseeker doesn't magically become quicker.

>

> So

> b) No target

> Push 5 = 500ms

> push 2 as soon as possible = still 750ms

>

> Why would an animation with 750ms cast time magically become 100ms-150ms just because you have nobody targeted?

>

 

I just tested it .

The silouett goes invisble mid air here , regadles if the icon shows

You gain the ''Stealth'' message the moment you push 2 , not when you touch the ground , there some render or delay problems it seems .

Or when other person have said that some delay/reder problems in WvWvW when you get destealth (stealth last longer)

 

The good part is using the combo , doesnt force you to stay near the target for 1,25 , locked in place

 

[Doug.4930]

> @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said:

> > @"Doug.4930" said:

> > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said:

> >

> > > a) You target a person

> > > You push 5 (black powder) = 0,5 cast

> > > Then you push 2 (heartseeker) = 0,75 sec cast time and then he attacks

> > > Both 1,25 sec

> > > 1250 ms

> >

> > Correct

> >

> > > b) You dont target a person

> > > Push 5 = 0,5 sec

> > > Push 2 as soon a posible =0,1 -0,15

> > > 0.65 sec

> > > 650 ms

> >

> > But this is wrong. It doesn't matter if you have a target selected or not. You gain stealth AFTER you finish the heart seeker animation. Heartseeker doesn't magically become quicker.

> >

> > So

> > b) No target

> > Push 5 = 500ms

> > push 2 as soon as possible = still 750ms

> >

> > Why would an animation with 750ms cast time magically become 100ms-150ms just because you have nobody targeted?

> >

>

> I just tested it .

> The silouett goes invisble mid air here , regadles if the icon shows

> You gain the ''Stealth'' message the moment you push 2 , not when you touch the ground ... there some render or delay problems it seems .

> Or when other person have said that some delayreder problems in WvWvW when you get destealth (from attacking from stealth)

 

It all hinges on the cast time, whenever cast time ends is when you gain stealth. The cast time is 750ms for heart seeker. The cast time for black powder is 500ms. Unless you have quickness the heart seeker/black powder combo is always going to take 1250ms. Doesn't matter if you have a target. Its written in the code.

 

1250ms. Every time. Input lag, latency or human error may make it seem to be different. But its always 1250ms.

 

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

> @"Doug.4930" said:

> > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said:

> > > @"Doug.4930" said:

> > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said:

> > >

> > > > a) You target a person

> > > > You push 5 (black powder) = 0,5 cast

> > > > Then you push 2 (heartseeker) = 0,75 sec cast time and then he attacks

> > > > Both 1,25 sec

> > > > 1250 ms

> > >

> > > Correct

> > >

> > > > b) You dont target a person

> > > > Push 5 = 0,5 sec

> > > > Push 2 as soon a posible =0,1 -0,15

> > > > 0.65 sec

> > > > 650 ms

> > >

> > > But this is wrong. It doesn't matter if you have a target selected or not. You gain stealth AFTER you finish the heart seeker animation. Heartseeker doesn't magically become quicker.

> > >

> > > So

> > > b) No target

> > > Push 5 = 500ms

> > > push 2 as soon as possible = still 750ms

> > >

> > > Why would an animation with 750ms cast time magically become 100ms-150ms just because you have nobody targeted?

> > >

> >

> > I just tested it .

> > The silouett goes invisble mid air here , regadles if the icon shows

> > You gain the ''Stealth'' message the moment you push 2 , not when you touch the ground ... there some render or delay problems it seems .

> > Or when other person have said that some delayreder problems in WvWvW when you get destealth (from attacking from stealth)

>

> It all hinges on the cast time, whenever cast time ends is when you gain stealth. The cast time is 750ms for heart seeker. The cast time for black powder is 500ms. Unless you have quickness the heart seeker/black powder combo is always going to take 1250ms. Doesn't matter if you have a target. Its written in the code.

>

> 1250ms. Every time. Input lag, latency or human error may make it seem to be different. But its always 1250ms.

>

 

You get the ''stealth'' buff/message at the start of the combo .

There some reder /lag issues before it take effect . And you retain some minisec the stealthy siluate after it end (redering problem)

I can Knockback you whiile you are mid air of the heartseeker, and still you retain the stealth , asuming my reaction is 250 ms + 500 ms from the cast time of Flamethrower +30 ms lag

(nerf Lock In trait ...gimme Old Flame 2 ...i canno use it over fence.. !)

[Jables.4659]

> @"UsurPator.6521" said:

> Mesmers atm have insanely high mobility

 

Both of Mesmer's elite specs are straight up downgrades when it comes to WvW roaming, so when speaking of Mesmer mobility right now they basically have blink and either phase retreat or illusionary ambush. Core Mesmer mobility is surpassed by Thief, Warrior, Ele, Ranger, Shiro Rev, and many Guardian builds. Stealth is the only reason they can still solo roam effectively.

 

[Jables.4659]

> @"Svarty.8019" said:

 

> Thanks for the tip, but the superheroic reaction-time required to pull off this miracle is not something most humans possess.

 

Sic Em' is an instant cast skill while black powder + heartseeker takes 1.25 seconds to use consecutively. The average human reaction time to visual stimuli is .25 seconds. No super powers required.

 

 

[Doug.4930]

> @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said:

> > @"Doug.4930" said:

> > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said:

> > > > @"Doug.4930" said:

> > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said:

> > > >

> > > > > a) You target a person

> > > > > You push 5 (black powder) = 0,5 cast

> > > > > Then you push 2 (heartseeker) = 0,75 sec cast time and then he attacks

> > > > > Both 1,25 sec

> > > > > 1250 ms

> > > >

> > > > Correct

> > > >

> > > > > b) You dont target a person

> > > > > Push 5 = 0,5 sec

> > > > > Push 2 as soon a posible =0,1 -0,15

> > > > > 0.65 sec

> > > > > 650 ms

> > > >

> > > > But this is wrong. It doesn't matter if you have a target selected or not. You gain stealth AFTER you finish the heart seeker animation. Heartseeker doesn't magically become quicker.

> > > >

> > > > So

> > > > b) No target

> > > > Push 5 = 500ms

> > > > push 2 as soon as possible = still 750ms

> > > >

> > > > Why would an animation with 750ms cast time magically become 100ms-150ms just because you have nobody targeted?

> > > >

> > >

> > > I just tested it .

> > > The silouett goes invisble mid air here , regadles if the icon shows

> > > You gain the ''Stealth'' message the moment you push 2 , not when you touch the ground ... there some render or delay problems it seems .

> > > Or when other person have said that some delayreder problems in WvWvW when you get destealth (from attacking from stealth)

> >

> > It all hinges on the cast time, whenever cast time ends is when you gain stealth. The cast time is 750ms for heart seeker. The cast time for black powder is 500ms. Unless you have quickness the heart seeker/black powder combo is always going to take 1250ms. Doesn't matter if you have a target. Its written in the code.

> >

> > 1250ms. Every time. Input lag, latency or human error may make it seem to be different. But its always 1250ms.

> >

>

> You get the ''stealth'' buff/message at the start of the combo .

 

I really do think you are mistaken. For every leap finisher in the game you get the relevant buff at the end of the combo not at the beginning.

Other people feel free to chime in.

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > The thing is, stealth is important as an out of combat tool, these do nothing against it. Granted, thats also the reason I think Revaled skills were a misguided solution to the stealth problem, as they ignore **the central issue of stealth, people being able to engage out of stealth on an enemy who is unaware of their existence.** In-combat stealth would be bad even if these didnt exist.

> > >

> > > No offence, but if stealth didn't allow you to attack people that are unaware of your presence, what exactly would be the point of it?

> >

> > To allow you to reposition unseen and attack from unexpected angles? Its supposed to be used primarily in-combat.

> Fair, but case of point, on my current high spike build I use hide in shadows and shadow meld to get 9s of stealth, 13s with the two dodges, which if I choose my vantage point carefully is enough to approach and spike almost anyone. These are the only skills I have for stealth so I'm not building for permastealth by any means, but the only way to stop me from having that engage potential is to remove out of combat stealth entirely, and as you rightly say out of combat stealth isn't really a problem. You can't fix the problem by nerfing damage numbers either. To my mind, catching people off guard is the reason people complain about stealth, but it's also pretty much the entire point of it.

 

I don't think it has much to do with thieves having stealth openers. It's more the unrestricted use of stealth in combat. Stealth is fine and many games have it in some form or another. But only GW2 was stupid enough to allow virtually no restrictions and hardly any available counters. That is simply horrible design.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

> @"Doug.4930" said:

> > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said:

> > > @"Doug.4930" said:

> > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said:

> > > > > @"Doug.4930" said:

> > > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said:

> > > > >

> > > > > > a) You target a person

> > > > > > You push 5 (black powder) = 0,5 cast

> > > > > > Then you push 2 (heartseeker) = 0,75 sec cast time and then he attacks

> > > > > > Both 1,25 sec

> > > > > > 1250 ms

> > > > >

> > > > > Correct

> > > > >

> > > > > > b) You dont target a person

> > > > > > Push 5 = 0,5 sec

> > > > > > Push 2 as soon a posible =0,1 -0,15

> > > > > > 0.65 sec

> > > > > > 650 ms

> > > > >

> > > > > But this is wrong. It doesn't matter if you have a target selected or not. You gain stealth AFTER you finish the heart seeker animation. Heartseeker doesn't magically become quicker.

> > > > >

> > > > > So

> > > > > b) No target

> > > > > Push 5 = 500ms

> > > > > push 2 as soon as possible = still 750ms

> > > > >

> > > > > Why would an animation with 750ms cast time magically become 100ms-150ms just because you have nobody targeted?

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I just tested it .

> > > > The silouett goes invisble mid air here , regadles if the icon shows

> > > > You gain the ''Stealth'' message the moment you push 2 , not when you touch the ground ... there some render or delay problems it seems .

> > > > Or when other person have said that some delayreder problems in WvWvW when you get destealth (from attacking from stealth)

> > >

> > > It all hinges on the cast time, whenever cast time ends is when you gain stealth. The cast time is 750ms for heart seeker. The cast time for black powder is 500ms. Unless you have quickness the heart seeker/black powder combo is always going to take 1250ms. Doesn't matter if you have a target. Its written in the code.

> > >

> > > 1250ms. Every time. Input lag, latency or human error may make it seem to be different. But its always 1250ms.

> > >

> >

> > You get the ''stealth'' buff/message at the start of the combo .

>

> I really do think you are mistaken. For every leap finisher in the game you get the relevant buff at the end of the combo not at the beginning.

> Other people feel free to chime in.

>

 

Yeah, almost positive you are right. Message goes off right away but if you get interrupted beforehand you won't get the finisher effect, which will trigger at the completion of the skill cast. Can be misleading.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > The thing is, stealth is important as an out of combat tool, these do nothing against it. Granted, thats also the reason I think Revaled skills were a misguided solution to the stealth problem, as they ignore **the central issue of stealth, people being able to engage out of stealth on an enemy who is unaware of their existence.** In-combat stealth would be bad even if these didnt exist.

> > > >

> > > > No offence, but if stealth didn't allow you to attack people that are unaware of your presence, what exactly would be the point of it?

> > >

> > > To allow you to reposition unseen and attack from unexpected angles? Its supposed to be used primarily in-combat.

> > Fair, but case of point, on my current high spike build I use hide in shadows and shadow meld to get 9s of stealth, 13s with the two dodges, which if I choose my vantage point carefully is enough to approach and spike almost anyone. These are the only skills I have for stealth so I'm not building for permastealth by any means, but the only way to stop me from having that engage potential is to remove out of combat stealth entirely, and as you rightly say out of combat stealth isn't really a problem. You can't fix the problem by nerfing damage numbers either. To my mind, catching people off guard is the reason people complain about stealth, but it's also pretty much the entire point of it.

>

> I don't think it has much to do with thieves having stealth openers. It's more the unrestricted use of stealth in combat. Stealth is fine and many games have it in some form or another. But only GW2 was stupid enough to allow virtually no restrictions and hardly any available counters. That is simply horrible design.

 

It only has to do with thieves having stealth openers. The stealth in-combat is already underpowered as is. Out of Combat is a problem in every game that has it, that usually requires major restrictions or specially added counterplay. In-combat stealth however is rarely a problem. Same with GW2. In-combat stealth is already trivially easy to counter using AoEs and Cleave, let alone the revealed skills.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > The thing is, stealth is important as an out of combat tool, these do nothing against it. Granted, thats also the reason I think Revaled skills were a misguided solution to the stealth problem, as they ignore **the central issue of stealth, people being able to engage out of stealth on an enemy who is unaware of their existence.** In-combat stealth would be bad even if these didnt exist.

> > > > >

> > > > > No offence, but if stealth didn't allow you to attack people that are unaware of your presence, what exactly would be the point of it?

> > > >

> > > > To allow you to reposition unseen and attack from unexpected angles? Its supposed to be used primarily in-combat.

> > > Fair, but case of point, on my current high spike build I use hide in shadows and shadow meld to get 9s of stealth, 13s with the two dodges, which if I choose my vantage point carefully is enough to approach and spike almost anyone. These are the only skills I have for stealth so I'm not building for permastealth by any means, but the only way to stop me from having that engage potential is to remove out of combat stealth entirely, and as you rightly say out of combat stealth isn't really a problem. You can't fix the problem by nerfing damage numbers either. To my mind, catching people off guard is the reason people complain about stealth, but it's also pretty much the entire point of it.

> >

> > I don't think it has much to do with thieves having stealth openers. It's more the unrestricted use of stealth in combat. Stealth is fine and many games have it in some form or another. But only GW2 was stupid enough to allow virtually no restrictions and hardly any available counters. That is simply horrible design.

>

> It only has to do with thieves having stealth openers. The stealth in-combat is already underpowered as is. Out of Combat is a problem in every game that has it, that usually requires major restrictions or specially added counterplay. In-combat stealth however is rarely a problem. Same with GW2. In-combat stealth is already trivially easy to counter using AoEs and Cleave, let alone the revealed skills.

 

Yes, of course, Mr. Thief. There is absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever with being able to stealth at will, with no cooldown, becoming completely invisible, with most classes having no access to reveal and the only the ability to blindly spam area effects...against a class that also has virtually unlimited mobility as well. It's just us scrubs whining about stealth openers, naturally. How silly of me to bring it up! LoL

 

Edit: FWIW, I play stealth ambush classes like mesmer and I'm completely fine with stealth openers. What I am not fine with is classes having multiple sources of in-combat stealth with low or no cooldown, the result being automatic disengage with little ability for enemies to stop you. You want to appear right on top of me out of nowhere and chunk half my health in one go? Fine! But you better be an available target from there on!

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

> @"Doug.4930" said:

> > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said:

> > > @"Doug.4930" said:

> > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said:

> > > > > @"Doug.4930" said:

> > > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said:

> > > > >

> > > > > > a) You target a person

> > > > > > You push 5 (black powder) = 0,5 cast

> > > > > > Then you push 2 (heartseeker) = 0,75 sec cast time and then he attacks

> > > > > > Both 1,25 sec

> > > > > > 1250 ms

> > > > >

> > > > > Correct

> > > > >

> > > > > > b) You dont target a person

> > > > > > Push 5 = 0,5 sec

> > > > > > Push 2 as soon a posible =0,1 -0,15

> > > > > > 0.65 sec

> > > > > > 650 ms

> > > > >

> > > > > But this is wrong. It doesn't matter if you have a target selected or not. You gain stealth AFTER you finish the heart seeker animation. Heartseeker doesn't magically become quicker.

> > > > >

> > > > > So

> > > > > b) No target

> > > > > Push 5 = 500ms

> > > > > push 2 as soon as possible = still 750ms

> > > > >

> > > > > Why would an animation with 750ms cast time magically become 100ms-150ms just because you have nobody targeted?

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I just tested it .

> > > > The silouett goes invisble mid air here , regadles if the icon shows

> > > > You gain the ''Stealth'' message the moment you push 2 , not when you touch the ground ... there some render or delay problems it seems .

> > > > Or when other person have said that some delayreder problems in WvWvW when you get destealth (from attacking from stealth)

> > >

> > > It all hinges on the cast time, whenever cast time ends is when you gain stealth. The cast time is 750ms for heart seeker. The cast time for black powder is 500ms. Unless you have quickness the heart seeker/black powder combo is always going to take 1250ms. Doesn't matter if you have a target. Its written in the code.

> > >

> > > 1250ms. Every time. Input lag, latency or human error may make it seem to be different. But its always 1250ms.

> > >

> >

> > You get the ''stealth'' buff/message at the start of the combo .

>

> I really do think you are mistaken. For every leap finisher in the game you get the relevant buff at the end of the combo not at the beginning.

> Other people feel free to chime in.

>

 

https://imgur.com/a/gg9ehPA

 

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > The thing is, stealth is important as an out of combat tool, these do nothing against it. Granted, thats also the reason I think Revaled skills were a misguided solution to the stealth problem, as they ignore **the central issue of stealth, people being able to engage out of stealth on an enemy who is unaware of their existence.** In-combat stealth would be bad even if these didnt exist.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No offence, but if stealth didn't allow you to attack people that are unaware of your presence, what exactly would be the point of it?

> > > > >

> > > > > To allow you to reposition unseen and attack from unexpected angles? Its supposed to be used primarily in-combat.

> > > > Fair, but case of point, on my current high spike build I use hide in shadows and shadow meld to get 9s of stealth, 13s with the two dodges, which if I choose my vantage point carefully is enough to approach and spike almost anyone. These are the only skills I have for stealth so I'm not building for permastealth by any means, but the only way to stop me from having that engage potential is to remove out of combat stealth entirely, and as you rightly say out of combat stealth isn't really a problem. You can't fix the problem by nerfing damage numbers either. To my mind, catching people off guard is the reason people complain about stealth, but it's also pretty much the entire point of it.

> > >

> > > I don't think it has much to do with thieves having stealth openers. It's more the unrestricted use of stealth in combat. Stealth is fine and many games have it in some form or another. But only GW2 was stupid enough to allow virtually no restrictions and hardly any available counters. That is simply horrible design.

> >

> > It only has to do with thieves having stealth openers. The stealth in-combat is already underpowered as is. Out of Combat is a problem in every game that has it, that usually requires major restrictions or specially added counterplay. In-combat stealth however is rarely a problem. Same with GW2. In-combat stealth is already trivially easy to counter using AoEs and Cleave, let alone the revealed skills.

>

> Yes, of course, Mr. Thief. There is absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever with being able to stealth at will, with no cooldown, becoming completely invisible, with most classes having no access to reveal and the only the ability to blindly spam area effects...against a class that also has virtually unlimited mobility as well. It's just us scrubs whining about stealth openers, naturally. How silly of me to bring it up! LoL

>

 

"With no cooldown". Intiative is a global cooldown. You also have revealed between uses. There is a cooldown. And yeah, there is no problem with it, other than it being so underpowered, thieves dont actually *use* in-combat stealth. Its slow, telegraphed, and just gives your opponent free damage. Keep in mind, Im playing Engineer. And Im not even using Lock-On, not even when facing thief. You know why? Because its a redundant trait and worse than streamlined kits, because of how trivially easy it is to deal with in-combat stealth. They try to stealth up, I chuck a nade Barrage at them, and they get downed. Well, the bad thieves, anyway. The good ones dont even try to stealth up, they just shortbow 5 and go away.

 

> Edit: FWIW, I play stealth ambush classes like mesmer and I'm completely fine with stealth openers. What I am not fine with is classes having multiple sources of in-combat stealth with low or no cooldown, the result being automatic disengage with little ability for enemies to stop you. You want to appear right on top of me out of nowhere and chunk half my health in one go? Fine! But you better be an available target from there on!

 

If the thief wants to disengage, theyre not going to use stealth, because its not "automatic disengage" but rather "free damage for the opponent". Theyre going to switch to Shortbow, and Shortbow 5 away. And *that* you indeed cant stop. Anyway, no, Stealth openers, on any class, are the problem. You shouldnt be allowed to do massive damage to an opponent who didnt even know you were there. In-combat stealth is actually really weak, precisely because of how easily it is punished.