pninak.1069 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > Condi Rev doesnt because they just want to do *even more damage*, and their survivability is fine even without defensive stats. > > And other classes? You know the classes that have long since realized they need the sustain to be viable fighting power builds? > > The problem is, you know who else realised that? *Power builds*. Difference is, they cant go full damage while going full defense at the same time. And, well, their survivability is fine. Take condi thief, or even Condi Mirage. Their survivability would be the *exact same* as the equivalent power build, if they had the same defensive stats. They just get to take a bunch of free tankiness ontop of that. you just blame the armor stats as an excuse not to use a condi cleanse or any of the other counters already available to you. condi got more counters than power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Julius Seizure.4985" said: > > Power uses 3 stats for maximum potential, and condition damage uses 2 stats for maximum potential. This is the root of the problem. > > > > Make it so condition damage is reduced by something (toughness, vitality, etc) and then have Precision add the current “ignores armor” reduction effect. > > > > Boom. All of a sudden you need Power/Precision/Ferocity or Condition/Precision/Expertise for maximum damage of each respective type. The bloat for condition damage come entirely from its ability to maximize at 2 stats, and often do insane damage with just 1 stats (Condition damage). > > Most classes demand precision even on condition builds to truly get the most of their damage due to trait interactions. Well, not most, actually. Actually, right now basically none of them do. Burn Guardian has an on-crit trait, but it has a 10 second cooldown, and guardian gains crit chance from its traits. Necro does, but they also get a lot of free crit chance (hence why both dont run any precision). Weaver does, but 5 second cooldown, and it also doesnt run any precision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"pninak.1069" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > Condi Rev doesnt because they just want to do *even more damage*, and their survivability is fine even without defensive stats. > > > And other classes? You know the classes that have long since realized they need the sustain to be viable fighting power builds? > > > > The problem is, you know who else realised that? *Power builds*. Difference is, they cant go full damage while going full defense at the same time. And, well, their survivability is fine. Take condi thief, or even Condi Mirage. Their survivability would be the *exact same* as the equivalent power build, if they had the same defensive stats. They just get to take a bunch of free tankiness ontop of that. > > you just blame the armor stats as an excuse not to use a condi cleanse or any of the other counters already available to you. condi got more counters than power. The problem is, not all builds can handle condis equally, and condi builds are designed to be able to get through a single persons condi cleanses. Condi is overtuned in any scenario that doesnt involve a support like Firebrand who gets rid of the condis repeatedly. Besides, thats part of the hypothetical rework. Make condi cleanses only cleanse debilitating conditions (i.e. cripple, immob, chill, fear, etc. etc.), then balance condi around that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pninak.1069 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 you think they should add condi cleanse to stunbreakers in order to balance it this way? there are a lot of ways to get rid of condi that don't seem as obvious. you got 2 auras for reduced dmg. food, direct cleanses and resistence. and ofc traits. so you could choose defensive stats and offensive traits or offensive stats, but with traitlines that support your defense more than your dmg you would think power builds would calculate to do more dmg to condi when using cleanses, because even if you got reduced dmg output overall you still gonna have strong spikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lodjur.1284 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > Condi Rev doesnt because they just want to do *even more damage*, and their survivability is fine even without defensive stats. > > And other classes? You know the classes that have long since realized they need the sustain to be viable fighting power builds? > > The problem is, you know who else realised that? *Power builds*. Difference is, they cant go full damage while going full defense at the same time. And, well, their survivability is fine. Take condi thief, or even Condi Mirage. Their survivability would be the *exact same* as the equivalent power build, if they had the same defensive stats. They just get to take a bunch of free tankiness ontop of that. Condi thief and mirage are indeed problematic, the armor stats aren't the problems though. It's the class design, even as condi they're highly mobile and bursty. The only solution I can see is to force their condi weapons into hybrid ones, to the point where they need to run Viper/Grieving to achieve respectable damage, or completely gutting their power variants. Removing trailblazer/dire (and apothecary and shaman and so on) would drastically reduce build diversity and leave thief and mirage (and a few other fringe options) as the only viable condi options, as they don't "need" trailblazer the same way that a non-bursty melee build does. Tanky, melee, non-bursty condi builds should definitively exist and they need trailblazer. Also condi revenant most definitively runs trailblazer and the only problematic parts of the build is True Nature - Demon has 600 radius and is unavoidable (ignores evade, block and blind) and has the potential to "1-shot". Infuse Light (dragon heal) is problematic as it's the kinda skill that really carries people, especially when already outnumbering. This is why condi herald is hard to kill, not runes of Tormenting or trailblazer. I wish Anet would implement something similar to ArcDPS dmg taken function in the core game so people could also see how rare it is that condition dmg is above 50% (or even above 30% for that matter). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God.2708 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"God.2708" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"God.2708" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"God.2708" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"God.2708" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > > What it comes down to is that power dmg needs 3 effect to be viable and there are many counter effects out side of classes such as dmg -% food and protection boon as well as aura and even rune set that give -% dmg. Condi only needs 1 effect and there are far less dmg -% for condi in the game at all levels. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its always going to be out of balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This comes up all the time and it's factually untrue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Warrior with Sword in full Dire](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PKQAwA-zxIY8ogHA-e) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Warrior with Axe in full Soldier](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PKQAcA-zRIYSUwDA-e) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Damage levels are very comparable, especially when you consider that many of the condis won't get their full duration due to cleansing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats not a good example given that Warrior is not a good (or even viable) condi class, while a pretty powerful power class. Of course Dire will do as little damage as Soldier. The difference is Dire is a *very* viable statset, and Soldier is not. Realistically, a good condi build like Condi Rev in Dire will hit easily 3 times harder than a Warrior in Soldier gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > Pick a class then. Any class. I just did warrior because sword and axe are pretty standard thematic condi/power weapons > > > > > > > > > > I mean, I already gave an example, Revenant. Soldier Revenant will do a *fraction* of the damage a Dire revenant will. But really, take any class with powerful condi builds right now. Weaver, Guardian, Necro, hell even Thief. > > > > > > > > [soldiers Rev with sword](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmQAwlQMEyjQdEijQkEiAA-zRIYSUwDA-e) > > > > > > > > [Dire Rev with Mace](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmQAklQIEKiQSECiQgESAA-zxIY8ogHA-e) > > > > > > > > Looks pretty much the same to me. Condi has a small damage edge but again, clears would reduce their maximum expected output. This is also damage vs a 2.7k armor target, a glassier target would take way more from power (and the same from condi) > > > > > > Stats-wise yeah, their survivability is the same. No duh, the only difference is power vs condi. Damage-wise? Its not a "slight edge", its such a massive gap you could run a river through it. Of course, you cant try it out in sPvP because you dont have either stat sets available. But we can approximate it. First, Power Rev using Sage's Amulet. It gives condi damage, but Power Rev doesnt apply condis much. Now, for a test. On the heavy target golem, using Sages, it took me 15 seconds to kill it, using everything at my disposal. Now with condi, sadly there wasnt a good stat combination to use there. I settled with Rabid, but damage is slightly inflated, keep that in mind. With that, I killed the same target in 5 seconds. Even with the slight damage up, thats a massive difference. Despite the fact that much of condi revs power is in its condi-sharing. > > > > So. Hitting a heavy golem that can't cleanse conditions but does have increased armor to reduce power damages effectiveness. Resulted in condition damage killing it faster? I just jumped into PvP slapped a Sages amulet onto my rev and dropped the light armor golem in 4s. Methinks this is a PEBKAC problem. > > Light golems also have less health. I imagine condi Rev can kill it even faster. Besides, the point is that, even with cleanses around, Condition builds using just one condition stat do *way* more damage than power builds using just one power stat. Thats why the former are viable, and the latter arent. Huh, TIL, did not realize there was a 5k HP disparity. Did it on heavy and killed it in 8s. Which still does not strike me as a 'HUGE' gap. And what do you mean not viable? Trailblazers builds aren't viable either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"God.2708" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"God.2708" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"God.2708" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"God.2708" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"God.2708" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > > > What it comes down to is that power dmg needs 3 effect to be viable and there are many counter effects out side of classes such as dmg -% food and protection boon as well as aura and even rune set that give -% dmg. Condi only needs 1 effect and there are far less dmg -% for condi in the game at all levels. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its always going to be out of balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This comes up all the time and it's factually untrue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Warrior with Sword in full Dire](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PKQAwA-zxIY8ogHA-e) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Warrior with Axe in full Soldier](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PKQAcA-zRIYSUwDA-e) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Damage levels are very comparable, especially when you consider that many of the condis won't get their full duration due to cleansing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats not a good example given that Warrior is not a good (or even viable) condi class, while a pretty powerful power class. Of course Dire will do as little damage as Soldier. The difference is Dire is a *very* viable statset, and Soldier is not. Realistically, a good condi build like Condi Rev in Dire will hit easily 3 times harder than a Warrior in Soldier gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pick a class then. Any class. I just did warrior because sword and axe are pretty standard thematic condi/power weapons > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, I already gave an example, Revenant. Soldier Revenant will do a *fraction* of the damage a Dire revenant will. But really, take any class with powerful condi builds right now. Weaver, Guardian, Necro, hell even Thief. > > > > > > > > > > [soldiers Rev with sword](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmQAwlQMEyjQdEijQkEiAA-zRIYSUwDA-e) > > > > > > > > > > [Dire Rev with Mace](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmQAklQIEKiQSECiQgESAA-zxIY8ogHA-e) > > > > > > > > > > Looks pretty much the same to me. Condi has a small damage edge but again, clears would reduce their maximum expected output. This is also damage vs a 2.7k armor target, a glassier target would take way more from power (and the same from condi) > > > > > > > > Stats-wise yeah, their survivability is the same. No duh, the only difference is power vs condi. Damage-wise? Its not a "slight edge", its such a massive gap you could run a river through it. Of course, you cant try it out in sPvP because you dont have either stat sets available. But we can approximate it. First, Power Rev using Sage's Amulet. It gives condi damage, but Power Rev doesnt apply condis much. Now, for a test. On the heavy target golem, using Sages, it took me 15 seconds to kill it, using everything at my disposal. Now with condi, sadly there wasnt a good stat combination to use there. I settled with Rabid, but damage is slightly inflated, keep that in mind. With that, I killed the same target in 5 seconds. Even with the slight damage up, thats a massive difference. Despite the fact that much of condi revs power is in its condi-sharing. > > > > > > So. Hitting a heavy golem that can't cleanse conditions but does have increased armor to reduce power damages effectiveness. Resulted in condition damage killing it faster? I just jumped into PvP slapped a Sages amulet onto my rev and dropped the light armor golem in 4s. Methinks this is a PEBKAC problem. > > > > Light golems also have less health. I imagine condi Rev can kill it even faster. Besides, the point is that, even with cleanses around, Condition builds using just one condition stat do *way* more damage than power builds using just one power stat. Thats why the former are viable, and the latter arent. > > Huh, TIL, did not realize there was a 5k HP disparity. Did it on heavy and killed it in 8s. Which still does not strike me as a 'HUGE' gap. And what do you mean not viable? Trailblazers builds aren't viable either. Yeah I dont know how you killed it in 8 seconds, unless you had condis ticking alongside (which you shouldnt, given that sword sword doesnt have any). In truth its a huge gap, almost 3 times damage differential. Also, of course Trailblazer builds are viable. Actually scratch viable, theyre *the* WvW meta in small scale skirmishes right now. In zergs less so, because there are condi cleanses abound, but even in zergs youll find some Trailblazer scourges. Meanwhile, you will find no soldier builds anywhere at all. Noone runs them. Theyre trash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > Condi Rev doesnt because they just want to do *even more damage*, and their survivability is fine even without defensive stats. > > > And other classes? You know the classes that have long since realized they need the sustain to be viable fighting power builds? > > > > The problem is, you know who else realised that? *Power builds*. Difference is, they cant go full damage while going full defense at the same time. And, well, their survivability is fine. Take condi thief, or even Condi Mirage. Their survivability would be the *exact same* as the equivalent power build, if they had the same defensive stats. They just get to take a bunch of free tankiness ontop of that. > > Condi thief and mirage are indeed problematic, the armor stats aren't the problems though. > > It's the class design, even as condi they're highly mobile and bursty. > > The only solution I can see is to force their condi weapons into hybrid ones, to the point where they need to run Viper/Grieving to achieve respectable damage, or completely gutting their power variants. > > Removing trailblazer/dire (and apothecary and shaman and so on) would drastically reduce build diversity and leave thief and mirage (and a few other fringe options) as the only viable condi options, as they don't "need" trailblazer the same way that a non-bursty melee build does. > > Tanky, melee, non-bursty condi builds should definitively exist and they need trailblazer. > > Also condi revenant most definitively runs trailblazer and the only problematic parts of the build is > > True Nature - Demon has 600 radius and is unavoidable (ignores evade, block and blind) and has the potential to "1-shot". > > Infuse Light (dragon heal) is problematic as it's the kinda skill that really carries people, especially when already outnumbering. > > This is why condi herald is hard to kill, not runes of Tormenting or trailblazer. > > > I wish Anet would implement something similar to ArcDPS dmg taken function in the core game so people could also see how rare it is that condition dmg is above 50% (or even above 30% for that matter). Actually, theyre not problematic, theyre both probably on the weaker side, I just used them as examples because they tend to use the same survivability as their power counterparts. Anyway, removing Trailblazer would keep the builds still viable. Even removing Dire would, you still have Rabid. Anyway, tanky condi builds are fine so long as they do the exact same level of damage as tanky power builds, instead of 3 or 4 times as much. They dont need Trailblazer, just like Prot Holo doesnt need Paladins, or even Demolishers. I mean, that would not say much given that it depends on who youre facing, how often, and so on. But I can tell you this, every time I look through my combat log after roaming around in WvW for a couple hours, its almost entirely condition damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > Alright, I see a lot of people saying "condi needs survivability because its damage isnt bursty", and thats just weird to me. Because A, not all power builds are burst builds. Many are in fact focused on sustained DPS. And B, most condi builds being played right now in fact *are* bursty as hell. Condi doesnt need the defensive tools. They just push it even further ahead. Hell take Condi Rev in WvW, theyre running Grieving because they can actually use the power damage as well, and dont need the defensive tools at all. > > Complains about trailblazers/dire - then say one of the most OP condi burst classes dont use that anyway. > > > > Hm. > > > > Whats next, even glass condi isnt allowed to compete with power so people should be forced to use power based weapons? Cant use condi based trait? Maybe we just need to delete entire classes keep the power hegemony safe. > > The point is that condition *doesnt need the tanky stats*, the fact that they can get them for free breaks them. Condi Rev doesnt because they just want to do *even more damage*, and their survivability is fine even without defensive stats. Mind you, even if it went dire, it would still outdamage all other small-scale roamers. Just by less absurd of a margin. > > Though I wouldnt just nerf condi, it needs a rework from the ground up. In particular regarding cleanses, those make the stat too binary. You have enough cleanses, you win, you dont, you lose. Power builds do NOT need all of the precision/power and or ferocity they tend to take either. There are far more of these available in some form in the way of Runes/traits and utilities. As example a thief can get a high crit rate without investing in precision at all. There are far more adds to power overall in the traitlines than there is to Condition and it not like the thief has to sacrifice to take these as they are generally taken anyways. SOA as example adds precision that that the same as most armor sets with precision as a stat. Not only that it cleanses three conditions and adds endurance. Couple this with Daredevil ruins in a daredevil build and you can all but ignore precision in the build . There is nothing wrong with Dire and TB being in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God.2708 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"God.2708" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"God.2708" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"God.2708" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"God.2708" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"God.2708" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > > > > What it comes down to is that power dmg needs 3 effect to be viable and there are many counter effects out side of classes such as dmg -% food and protection boon as well as aura and even rune set that give -% dmg. Condi only needs 1 effect and there are far less dmg -% for condi in the game at all levels. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its always going to be out of balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This comes up all the time and it's factually untrue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Warrior with Sword in full Dire](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PKQAwA-zxIY8ogHA-e) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Warrior with Axe in full Soldier](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PKQAcA-zRIYSUwDA-e) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Damage levels are very comparable, especially when you consider that many of the condis won't get their full duration due to cleansing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats not a good example given that Warrior is not a good (or even viable) condi class, while a pretty powerful power class. Of course Dire will do as little damage as Soldier. The difference is Dire is a *very* viable statset, and Soldier is not. Realistically, a good condi build like Condi Rev in Dire will hit easily 3 times harder than a Warrior in Soldier gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pick a class then. Any class. I just did warrior because sword and axe are pretty standard thematic condi/power weapons > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, I already gave an example, Revenant. Soldier Revenant will do a *fraction* of the damage a Dire revenant will. But really, take any class with powerful condi builds right now. Weaver, Guardian, Necro, hell even Thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > [soldiers Rev with sword](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmQAwlQMEyjQdEijQkEiAA-zRIYSUwDA-e) > > > > > > > > > > > > [Dire Rev with Mace](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmQAklQIEKiQSECiQgESAA-zxIY8ogHA-e) > > > > > > > > > > > > Looks pretty much the same to me. Condi has a small damage edge but again, clears would reduce their maximum expected output. This is also damage vs a 2.7k armor target, a glassier target would take way more from power (and the same from condi) > > > > > > > > > > Stats-wise yeah, their survivability is the same. No duh, the only difference is power vs condi. Damage-wise? Its not a "slight edge", its such a massive gap you could run a river through it. Of course, you cant try it out in sPvP because you dont have either stat sets available. But we can approximate it. First, Power Rev using Sage's Amulet. It gives condi damage, but Power Rev doesnt apply condis much. Now, for a test. On the heavy target golem, using Sages, it took me 15 seconds to kill it, using everything at my disposal. Now with condi, sadly there wasnt a good stat combination to use there. I settled with Rabid, but damage is slightly inflated, keep that in mind. With that, I killed the same target in 5 seconds. Even with the slight damage up, thats a massive difference. Despite the fact that much of condi revs power is in its condi-sharing. > > > > > > > > So. Hitting a heavy golem that can't cleanse conditions but does have increased armor to reduce power damages effectiveness. Resulted in condition damage killing it faster? I just jumped into PvP slapped a Sages amulet onto my rev and dropped the light armor golem in 4s. Methinks this is a PEBKAC problem. > > > > > > Light golems also have less health. I imagine condi Rev can kill it even faster. Besides, the point is that, even with cleanses around, Condition builds using just one condition stat do *way* more damage than power builds using just one power stat. Thats why the former are viable, and the latter arent. > > > > Huh, TIL, did not realize there was a 5k HP disparity. Did it on heavy and killed it in 8s. Which still does not strike me as a 'HUGE' gap. And what do you mean not viable? Trailblazers builds aren't viable either. > > Yeah I dont know how you killed it in 8 seconds, unless you had condis ticking alongside (which you shouldnt, given that sword sword doesnt have any). In truth its a huge gap, almost 3 times damage differential. Also, of course Trailblazer builds are viable. Actually scratch viable, theyre *the* WvW meta in small scale skirmishes right now. In zergs less so, because there are condi cleanses abound, but even in zergs youll find some Trailblazer scourges. Meanwhile, you will find no soldier builds anywhere at all. Noone runs them. Theyre trash. Burst of Strength -> Elemental Blast -> legend swap impossible Odds -> shackling Wave -> death strike -> Chilling Isolation -> auto attacks Dropped elemental blast to get rid of the burning and didn't even turn fury facet on to give help with crits and still killed it in ~8s. Optimized rotation with fury and I can get it down in about 6. A select couple of condi builds are meta. And would be meta even without trailblazers/dire. And trailblazers isn't a direct comparison to soldier's anyway as it has expertise. You'd compare it to something like Paladin's or maybe knights (but really you'd want a precision variant of valk's if you were worried about condition builds). And there is of course a reason no one runs soldier builds and that's because the damage is approximately the same as a condition build and if you had the choice why would you opt for slow sustained power damage? I've seen a pretty mixed bag in small scale. There are a couple of slightly overperforming builds, and it has nothing to do with their gear. They're overperforming in PvP where those don't stats exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > Alright, I see a lot of people saying "condi needs survivability because its damage isnt bursty", and thats just weird to me. Because A, not all power builds are burst builds. Many are in fact focused on sustained DPS. And B, most condi builds being played right now in fact *are* bursty as hell. Condi doesnt need the defensive tools. They just push it even further ahead. Hell take Condi Rev in WvW, theyre running Grieving because they can actually use the power damage as well, and dont need the defensive tools at all. > > > Complains about trailblazers/dire - then say one of the most OP condi burst classes dont use that anyway. > > > > > > Hm. > > > > > > Whats next, even glass condi isnt allowed to compete with power so people should be forced to use power based weapons? Cant use condi based trait? Maybe we just need to delete entire classes keep the power hegemony safe. > > > > The point is that condition *doesnt need the tanky stats*, the fact that they can get them for free breaks them. Condi Rev doesnt because they just want to do *even more damage*, and their survivability is fine even without defensive stats. Mind you, even if it went dire, it would still outdamage all other small-scale roamers. Just by less absurd of a margin. > > > > Though I wouldnt just nerf condi, it needs a rework from the ground up. In particular regarding cleanses, those make the stat too binary. You have enough cleanses, you win, you dont, you lose. > > Power builds do NOT need all of the precision/power and or ferocity they tend to take either. There are far more of these available in some form in the way of Runes/traits and utilities. As example a thief can get a high crit rate without investing in precision at all. There are far more adds to power overall in the traitlines than there is to Condition and it not like the thief has to sacrifice to take these as they are generally taken anyways. SOA as example adds precision that that the same as most armor sets with precision as a stat. Not only that it cleanses three conditions and adds endurance. Couple this with Daredevil ruins in a daredevil build and you can all but ignore precision in the build . They do, actually. *If* they dont (which is true for a couple not particularly good builds here and there, mostly using Valkyries), then they wont use those stat sets. Theyre designed to be optimal. Thief can get a decent amount of crit chance, but its all conditional. During a fight, most of it will turn off, and you will sit there without nearly enough crit chance to work with. You also have to run Critical Strikes, which is not a very good traitline (mostly because of the previously mentioned reason). As for power, there are 3, but 2 of them are weapon-specific (and not used because they compete with much better traits) and one is revealed-specific, meaning no build really wants to use it, other than Rifle DE, maybe. Also, no. Signet of Agility adds 180 precision.The lowest amount of precision a full prefix gives is what, 560? Thats more than 3 times as much, and thats when condi builds even use precision, which most of them dont. And yeah, Signet of Agility is great, but its also something you *will* have to use, sooner or later. And when you do, the passive effect isnt available. Anyway, the build you mention, thats what Vault Spam thief used to run. The problem is, you dont have enough dodges to keep up the rune of the daredevil, and you quickly find yourself without crits to work with. And on non-staff builds, you can forget about it entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pninak.1069 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 I think talking about condi dmg in raw is a bit unhelpful, because it seems to come down to certain builds that players don't know how to deal with. I also see a lot of people that complain about other classes, but don't even knowing the basic stuff like what weapons they are using for which purpose. what traits are available which is better for which build etc. otherwise you wouldn't have the complaints about traits like chronophantasma and IH, although both exceed when using a specific weapon only. this is obviously on purpose to win the upper edge and denying any decent approach to find the root cause of the complaint. it is the frequency of the conditions rather than the dmg by conditions. Now imo I think mirage is pretty low when it comes do condi dmg despite the number of applications it can put out. fb and necro outdmg mirage in that area propably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"God.2708" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"God.2708" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"God.2708" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"God.2708" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"God.2708" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"God.2708" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > What it comes down to is that power dmg needs 3 effect to be viable and there are many counter effects out side of classes such as dmg -% food and protection boon as well as aura and even rune set that give -% dmg. Condi only needs 1 effect and there are far less dmg -% for condi in the game at all levels. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its always going to be out of balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This comes up all the time and it's factually untrue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Warrior with Sword in full Dire](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PKQAwA-zxIY8ogHA-e) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Warrior with Axe in full Soldier](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PKQAcA-zRIYSUwDA-e) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Damage levels are very comparable, especially when you consider that many of the condis won't get their full duration due to cleansing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats not a good example given that Warrior is not a good (or even viable) condi class, while a pretty powerful power class. Of course Dire will do as little damage as Soldier. The difference is Dire is a *very* viable statset, and Soldier is not. Realistically, a good condi build like Condi Rev in Dire will hit easily 3 times harder than a Warrior in Soldier gear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pick a class then. Any class. I just did warrior because sword and axe are pretty standard thematic condi/power weapons > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, I already gave an example, Revenant. Soldier Revenant will do a *fraction* of the damage a Dire revenant will. But really, take any class with powerful condi builds right now. Weaver, Guardian, Necro, hell even Thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [soldiers Rev with sword](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmQAwlQMEyjQdEijQkEiAA-zRIYSUwDA-e) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Dire Rev with Mace](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmQAklQIEKiQSECiQgESAA-zxIY8ogHA-e) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Looks pretty much the same to me. Condi has a small damage edge but again, clears would reduce their maximum expected output. This is also damage vs a 2.7k armor target, a glassier target would take way more from power (and the same from condi) > > > > > > > > > > > > Stats-wise yeah, their survivability is the same. No duh, the only difference is power vs condi. Damage-wise? Its not a "slight edge", its such a massive gap you could run a river through it. Of course, you cant try it out in sPvP because you dont have either stat sets available. But we can approximate it. First, Power Rev using Sage's Amulet. It gives condi damage, but Power Rev doesnt apply condis much. Now, for a test. On the heavy target golem, using Sages, it took me 15 seconds to kill it, using everything at my disposal. Now with condi, sadly there wasnt a good stat combination to use there. I settled with Rabid, but damage is slightly inflated, keep that in mind. With that, I killed the same target in 5 seconds. Even with the slight damage up, thats a massive difference. Despite the fact that much of condi revs power is in its condi-sharing. > > > > > > > > > > So. Hitting a heavy golem that can't cleanse conditions but does have increased armor to reduce power damages effectiveness. Resulted in condition damage killing it faster? I just jumped into PvP slapped a Sages amulet onto my rev and dropped the light armor golem in 4s. Methinks this is a PEBKAC problem. > > > > > > > > Light golems also have less health. I imagine condi Rev can kill it even faster. Besides, the point is that, even with cleanses around, Condition builds using just one condition stat do *way* more damage than power builds using just one power stat. Thats why the former are viable, and the latter arent. > > > > > > Huh, TIL, did not realize there was a 5k HP disparity. Did it on heavy and killed it in 8s. Which still does not strike me as a 'HUGE' gap. And what do you mean not viable? Trailblazers builds aren't viable either. > > > > Yeah I dont know how you killed it in 8 seconds, unless you had condis ticking alongside (which you shouldnt, given that sword sword doesnt have any). In truth its a huge gap, almost 3 times damage differential. Also, of course Trailblazer builds are viable. Actually scratch viable, theyre *the* WvW meta in small scale skirmishes right now. In zergs less so, because there are condi cleanses abound, but even in zergs youll find some Trailblazer scourges. Meanwhile, you will find no soldier builds anywhere at all. Noone runs them. Theyre trash. > > Burst of Strength -> Elemental Blast -> legend swap impossible Odds -> shackling Wave -> death strike -> Chilling Isolation -> auto attacks > Dropped elemental blast to get rid of the burning and didn't even turn fury facet on to give help with crits and still killed it in ~8s. Optimized rotation with fury and I can get it down in about 4-5. > Even with that fastest I could get was 9, and that was with pre-stacking. Without it it gets *way* slower. And with pre-stacking, I could get condi down to 6 seconds. > A select couple of condi builds are meta. And would be meta even without trailblazers/dire. And trailblazers isn't a direct comparison to soldier's anyway as it has expertise. You'd compare it to something like Paladin's or maybe knights (but really you'd want a precision variant of valk's if you were worried about condition builds). And there is of course a reason no one runs soldier builds and that's because the damage is approximately the same as a condition build and if you had the choice why would you opt for slow sustained power damage? > A select couple builds *in general* are viable. In small scale, considerably more condi builds than power builds (if you even count bunker builds as power builds. I really dont). And yes, but Dire is a perfect comparision to Soldiers. Dire is one of the best prefix's for condi builds, extremely powerful and very effective. Soldiers is one of the *worst* power prefixes, extremely weak and not at all effective. And no, the reason is because the damage isnt approximately the same, but rather is *several* orders of magnitude ***LOWER*** than power builds. Keep in mind, the heavy golem doesnt even move for torment, *and* the damage would keep ticking against a real player who might, yknow, heal up? In truth, the damage is such a wide margin that its a joke to compare the 2. Just try it yourself. Pick Sage's on power Rev, and see if you can kill literally *anyone* in the Arena. Then do the same with Rabid, or hell the same Sage pre-fix. You will notice, the Sage power one fails to kill literally anything. The sage condi one will be able to, despite the statset being less than ideal > I've seen a pretty mixed bag in small scale. There are a couple of slightly overperforming builds, and it has nothing to do with their gear. They're overperforming in PvP where those don't stats exist. Even the non-overperforming builds are heavily skewed towards condi. As far as power is concerned, the only ones I see are Thieves, Reapers, and Warriors. The thieves are as irrelevant as theyve been for a while, their damage not nearly significant enough. Which leaves us with just Warrior and Reaper. Warrior is good, Reaper less so. But thats it. I dont even see Soulbeast playing power anymore. Its just condi after condi. And theyre all the same story. More damage than power builds while being far tankier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lodjur.1284 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > Condi Rev doesnt because they just want to do *even more damage*, and their survivability is fine even without defensive stats. > > > > And other classes? You know the classes that have long since realized they need the sustain to be viable fighting power builds? > > > > > > The problem is, you know who else realised that? *Power builds*. Difference is, they cant go full damage while going full defense at the same time. And, well, their survivability is fine. Take condi thief, or even Condi Mirage. Their survivability would be the *exact same* as the equivalent power build, if they had the same defensive stats. They just get to take a bunch of free tankiness ontop of that. > > > > Condi thief and mirage are indeed problematic, the armor stats aren't the problems though. > > > > It's the class design, even as condi they're highly mobile and bursty. > > > > The only solution I can see is to force their condi weapons into hybrid ones, to the point where they need to run Viper/Grieving to achieve respectable damage, or completely gutting their power variants. > > > > Removing trailblazer/dire (and apothecary and shaman and so on) would drastically reduce build diversity and leave thief and mirage (and a few other fringe options) as the only viable condi options, as they don't "need" trailblazer the same way that a non-bursty melee build does. > > > > Tanky, melee, non-bursty condi builds should definitively exist and they need trailblazer. > > > > Also condi revenant most definitively runs trailblazer and the only problematic parts of the build is > > > > True Nature - Demon has 600 radius and is unavoidable (ignores evade, block and blind) and has the potential to "1-shot". > > > > Infuse Light (dragon heal) is problematic as it's the kinda skill that really carries people, especially when already outnumbering. > > > > This is why condi herald is hard to kill, not runes of Tormenting or trailblazer. > > > > > > I wish Anet would implement something similar to ArcDPS dmg taken function in the core game so people could also see how rare it is that condition dmg is above 50% (or even above 30% for that matter). > > Actually, theyre not problematic, theyre both probably on the weaker side, I just used them as examples because they tend to use the same survivability as their power counterparts. Anyway, removing Trailblazer would keep the builds still viable. Even removing Dire would, you still have Rabid. Anyway, tanky condi builds are fine so long as they do the exact same level of damage as tanky power builds, instead of 3 or 4 times as much. They dont need Trailblazer, just like Prot Holo doesnt need Paladins, or even Demolishers. They definitively are, though imo not more than their power variants. Rabid is not even close to the third best condi statcombo. It's maybe 6th best, if even that. There's plenty of tanky power builds that push out those levels of dmg, Warrior in zerker+durability for example is tankier than most trailblaze/dire builds. Scrapper is tanky in some mix of Marauder+zerk+durability and definitively does respectable damage There's a ton more tanky power builds with high dmg, but not gonna list all of them here. Especially if you count the ones that can facetank a bit but come with a lot of invulns/evades. I am actually in favor of demolisher existing in WvW, it would definitively see a lot of use. Probably more than marauder does. Paladin too, though I think it wouldn't be particularly used. As far as I am concerned we should just be able to "create" our own stat combinations following the current rules. (ie 4 stat gives 10% more than 3 stat, with 2 big and 2 small stats etc.) > I mean, that would not say much given that it depends on who youre facing, how often, and so on. But I can tell you this, every time I look through my combat log after roaming around in WvW for a couple hours, its almost entirely condition damage. "Look through combat log" Use arcdps. The combat log is trash. I look through arcdps logs after every evening of smallscale WvW and also shortly after each fight. With an average group size of 3 (sometimes 2, rarely 4). I rarely take more than 35% condi dmg. Much less 50%. In bigger groups I would have to imagine it is far far less. The times I do are: 1v1 with condi builds (obviously, though I don't really do tons of 1v1, it's boring af) Eating a big transfer from transfer herald (true nature is very overtuned) The time I get stuck in SoJ (which is actually a bit overtuned) My support essentially has no group clears (WET tempest with powerful aura and no trooper runes, usually does roughly 10% of my clears according to logs) and I mostly just have sigil of cleansing as my clears, so hardly overloading on anti-condi stuff. This is with permanent protection as well so I "should" be taking more condi dmg than power. In fact retal is by far the biggest single source of dmg in close to every fight, often between 15-35% dmg taken. Which is power dmg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > Condi Rev doesnt because they just want to do *even more damage*, and their survivability is fine even without defensive stats. > > > > > And other classes? You know the classes that have long since realized they need the sustain to be viable fighting power builds? > > > > > > > > The problem is, you know who else realised that? *Power builds*. Difference is, they cant go full damage while going full defense at the same time. And, well, their survivability is fine. Take condi thief, or even Condi Mirage. Their survivability would be the *exact same* as the equivalent power build, if they had the same defensive stats. They just get to take a bunch of free tankiness ontop of that. > > > > > > Condi thief and mirage are indeed problematic, the armor stats aren't the problems though. > > > > > > It's the class design, even as condi they're highly mobile and bursty. > > > > > > The only solution I can see is to force their condi weapons into hybrid ones, to the point where they need to run Viper/Grieving to achieve respectable damage, or completely gutting their power variants. > > > > > > Removing trailblazer/dire (and apothecary and shaman and so on) would drastically reduce build diversity and leave thief and mirage (and a few other fringe options) as the only viable condi options, as they don't "need" trailblazer the same way that a non-bursty melee build does. > > > > > > Tanky, melee, non-bursty condi builds should definitively exist and they need trailblazer. > > > > > > Also condi revenant most definitively runs trailblazer and the only problematic parts of the build is > > > > > > True Nature - Demon has 600 radius and is unavoidable (ignores evade, block and blind) and has the potential to "1-shot". > > > > > > Infuse Light (dragon heal) is problematic as it's the kinda skill that really carries people, especially when already outnumbering. > > > > > > This is why condi herald is hard to kill, not runes of Tormenting or trailblazer. > > > > > > > > > I wish Anet would implement something similar to ArcDPS dmg taken function in the core game so people could also see how rare it is that condition dmg is above 50% (or even above 30% for that matter). > > > > Actually, theyre not problematic, theyre both probably on the weaker side, I just used them as examples because they tend to use the same survivability as their power counterparts. Anyway, removing Trailblazer would keep the builds still viable. Even removing Dire would, you still have Rabid. Anyway, tanky condi builds are fine so long as they do the exact same level of damage as tanky power builds, instead of 3 or 4 times as much. They dont need Trailblazer, just like Prot Holo doesnt need Paladins, or even Demolishers. > > They definitively are, though imo not more than their power variants. > Their power variants also arent problematic. In case of Mesmer, less so. > Rabid is not even close to the third best condi statcombo. It's maybe 6th best, if even that. > Hardly. There are others good if you got a bunch of healing, but most condi builds dont really have much. > There's plenty of tanky power builds that push out those levels of dmg, > Not really. Power builds are either tanky, or do that much damage. Not both. > Warrior in zerker+durability for example is tankier than most trailblaze/dire builds. > Zerker Durability? Nah. But there is a Durability build that is about as tanky as Trailblazer/Dire builds. It also does a fraction of their damage. > Scrapper is tanky in some mix of Marauder+zerk+durability and definitively does respectable damage > This one is pretty tanky. But its damage is, once again, a fraction of an equivalent tanky condi build. > There's a ton more tanky power builds with high dmg, but not gonna list all of them here. > There are tanky builds that do a decent amount of damage. But accross all of them, you have the same issue. Theyre either less tanky, or do a fraction of the damage of the equivalent condi builds. Of course, Condi builds do have to contend with multiple condition cleanses, and they would *still* be superior. > I am actually in favor of demolisher existing in WvW, it would definitively see a lot of use. > Right now? It wouldnt. Its basically Marauders, but significantly worse against the currently overperforming condi builds. > Paladin too, though I think it wouldn't be particularly used. > It has a better chance, but probably not. > As far as I am concerned we should just be able to "create" or own stat combinations following the current rules. (ie 4 stat gives 10% more than 3 stat, with 2 big and 2 small stats etc.) > That would certainly break condi even more. Until it gets a rework (Which it does need badly), we shouldnt do anything like that. > > I mean, that would not say much given that it depends on who youre facing, how often, and so on. But I can tell you this, every time I look through my combat log after roaming around in WvW for a couple hours, its almost entirely condition damage. > > "Look through combat log" > > Use arcdps. The combat log is trash. > The combat log perfectly represents the damage youve taken. Arcdps only makes it easier to read, but has issues with how it counts damage. > I look through logs after every evening of smallscale WvW and also shortly after each fight. With an average group size of 3 (sometimes 2, rarely 4). > > I extremely rarely take more than 30% condi dmg. Much less 50% > If youre playing with a group, odds are you have AoE condi cleanses. Perhaps even once you dont notice. > The times I do are: > 1v1 with condi builds (lol) > Eating a big transfer from transfer herald > The time I get stuck in SoJ > > My support essentially has no group clears (WET tempest with powerful aura and no trooper runes, usually does roughly 10% of my clears according to logs) and I mostly just have sigil of cleansing as my clears, so hardly overloading on anti-condi stuff. > > This is with permanent protection as well so I "should" be taking more condi dmg than power. Then perhaps you just got extremely lucky. Its *very* rare for me to take more power than condi damage. Obviously, most roamers I meet are condi because its better, and they do more damage, because its better. And keep in mind, Im playing Core Engineer with Elixir C and its *still* not enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lodjur.1284 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > Condi Rev doesnt because they just want to do *even more damage*, and their survivability is fine even without defensive stats. > > > > > > And other classes? You know the classes that have long since realized they need the sustain to be viable fighting power builds? > > > > > > > > > > The problem is, you know who else realised that? *Power builds*. Difference is, they cant go full damage while going full defense at the same time. And, well, their survivability is fine. Take condi thief, or even Condi Mirage. Their survivability would be the *exact same* as the equivalent power build, if they had the same defensive stats. They just get to take a bunch of free tankiness ontop of that. > > > > > > > > Condi thief and mirage are indeed problematic, the armor stats aren't the problems though. > > > > > > > > It's the class design, even as condi they're highly mobile and bursty. > > > > > > > > The only solution I can see is to force their condi weapons into hybrid ones, to the point where they need to run Viper/Grieving to achieve respectable damage, or completely gutting their power variants. > > > > > > > > Removing trailblazer/dire (and apothecary and shaman and so on) would drastically reduce build diversity and leave thief and mirage (and a few other fringe options) as the only viable condi options, as they don't "need" trailblazer the same way that a non-bursty melee build does. > > > > > > > > Tanky, melee, non-bursty condi builds should definitively exist and they need trailblazer. > > > > > > > > Also condi revenant most definitively runs trailblazer and the only problematic parts of the build is > > > > > > > > True Nature - Demon has 600 radius and is unavoidable (ignores evade, block and blind) and has the potential to "1-shot". > > > > > > > > Infuse Light (dragon heal) is problematic as it's the kinda skill that really carries people, especially when already outnumbering. > > > > > > > > This is why condi herald is hard to kill, not runes of Tormenting or trailblazer. > > > > > > > > > > > > I wish Anet would implement something similar to ArcDPS dmg taken function in the core game so people could also see how rare it is that condition dmg is above 50% (or even above 30% for that matter). > > > > > > Actually, theyre not problematic, theyre both probably on the weaker side, I just used them as examples because they tend to use the same survivability as their power counterparts. Anyway, removing Trailblazer would keep the builds still viable. Even removing Dire would, you still have Rabid. Anyway, tanky condi builds are fine so long as they do the exact same level of damage as tanky power builds, instead of 3 or 4 times as much. They dont need Trailblazer, just like Prot Holo doesnt need Paladins, or even Demolishers. > > > > They definitively are, though imo not more than their power variants. > > > > Their power variants also arent problematic. In case of Mesmer, less so. They are. > > Rabid is not even close to the third best condi statcombo. It's maybe 6th best, if even that. > > > > Hardly. There are others good if you got a bunch of healing, but most condi builds dont really have much. It's always about incoming dps vs incoming hps on condi builds that care about toughness in the first place > > There's plenty of tanky power builds that push out those levels of dmg, > > > > Not really. Power builds are either tanky, or do that much damage. Not both. > > > Warrior in zerker+durability for example is tankier than most trailblaze/dire builds. > > > Zerker Durability? Nah. But there is a Durability build that is about as tanky as Trailblazer/Dire builds. It also does a fraction of their damage. Durability runes have been the go to for a very long time for warrior (and basically every other remotely tanky power build I guess) > > Scrapper is tanky in some mix of Marauder+zerk+durability and definitively does respectable damage > > > > This one is pretty tanky. But its damage is, once again, a fraction of an equivalent tanky condi build. No it isn't, scrapper can do good dmg > > There's a ton more tanky power builds with high dmg, but not gonna list all of them here. > > > > There are tanky builds that do a decent amount of damage. But accross all of them, you have the same issue. Theyre either less tanky, or do a fraction of the damage of the equivalent condi builds. Of course, Condi builds do have to contend with multiple condition cleanses, and they would *still* be superior. That's just incorrect. Warrior and scrapper for example are both very strong at the moment. Both are tanky power builds (that also have an extremely easy time dealing with condi). > > I am actually in favor of demolisher existing in WvW, it would definitively see a lot of use. > > > > Right now? It wouldnt. Its basically Marauders, but significantly worse against the currently overperforming condi builds. It definitively would, warrior would run at least a number of it. > > Paladin too, though I think it wouldn't be particularly used. > > > > It has a better chance, but probably not. No it doesn't. > > As far as I am concerned we should just be able to "create" or own stat combinations following the current rules. (ie 4 stat gives 10% more than 3 stat, with 2 big and 2 small stats etc.) > > > > That would certainly break condi even more. Until it gets a rework (Which it does need badly), we shouldnt do anything like that. As condi I almost have my perfect stat combinations though. The ones I could create with such a system would be marginal improvements. > > > I mean, that would not say much given that it depends on who youre facing, how often, and so on. But I can tell you this, every time I look through my combat log after roaming around in WvW for a couple hours, its almost entirely condition damage. > > > > "Look through combat log" > > > > Use arcdps. The combat log is trash. > > > > The combat log perfectly represents the damage youve taken. Arcdps only makes it easier to read, but has issues with how it counts damage. It doesn't have any issues. > > I look through logs after every evening of smallscale WvW and also shortly after each fight. With an average group size of 3 (sometimes 2, rarely 4). > > > > I extremely rarely take more than 30% condi dmg. Much less 50% > > > > If youre playing with a group, odds are you have AoE condi cleanses. Perhaps even once you dont notice. I actually would, because I know the build of everyone I play with. I know that a tempest isn't gonna throw me any clears, cause the only group clears it has is 1 clear on the shout heal and overload water, which is used very sparsely. I know that the other dps in my group doesn't actually have any AoE clears. Even so I can look at logs and conclude that I usually get about 1 clear/30 sec from others, hardly a massive amount. > > The times I do are: > > 1v1 with condi builds (lol) > > Eating a big transfer from transfer herald > > The time I get stuck in SoJ > > > > My support essentially has no group clears (WET tempest with powerful aura and no trooper runes, usually does roughly 10% of my clears according to logs) and I mostly just have sigil of cleansing as my clears, so hardly overloading on anti-condi stuff. > > > > This is with permanent protection as well so I "should" be taking more condi dmg than power. > > Then perhaps you just got extremely lucky. Its *very* rare for me to take more power than condi damage. Obviously, most roamers I meet are condi because its better, and they do more damage, because its better. And keep in mind, Im playing Core Engineer with Elixir C and its *still* not enough. I got extremely "lucky" in almost every fight, every evening since the patch across a multitude of various matchups. Sounds very likely. I wish I was fighting more condi then I could just equip one of the many extremely strong counters and take vastly less dmg than I do now. You do realize that clears aren't supposed to make you immune right, just delay your death. So that you can kill them before they kill you. Of you frequently struggle it's either a player error or your build should run more clears. I somehow don't struggle with sigil of cleansing being about 75% of my clears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorani.7205 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 My subjective observations (running a Marauder Tempest for roaming & small scale fights with allies) I encounter power based one shot builds a lot less and do a lot better vs. power based builds, especially Thieves. I see a lot more condi based professions around, especially Rev/Herald and Necros. The number of condis they can dump on you compared to my cleanses makes them winners in fights that drag out. Losing some punch by CC skills not having a decent damage component seems to be as much a factor as power having lost its big spike potential. I have to admit, I don't run Runes/Sigils that remove condis, but the fact that this is strongly advised at the moment should be an indication of some Condi "supremacy" over Power specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > Condi Rev doesnt because they just want to do *even more damage*, and their survivability is fine even without defensive stats. > > > > > > > And other classes? You know the classes that have long since realized they need the sustain to be viable fighting power builds? > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem is, you know who else realised that? *Power builds*. Difference is, they cant go full damage while going full defense at the same time. And, well, their survivability is fine. Take condi thief, or even Condi Mirage. Their survivability would be the *exact same* as the equivalent power build, if they had the same defensive stats. They just get to take a bunch of free tankiness ontop of that. > > > > > > > > > > Condi thief and mirage are indeed problematic, the armor stats aren't the problems though. > > > > > > > > > > It's the class design, even as condi they're highly mobile and bursty. > > > > > > > > > > The only solution I can see is to force their condi weapons into hybrid ones, to the point where they need to run Viper/Grieving to achieve respectable damage, or completely gutting their power variants. > > > > > > > > > > Removing trailblazer/dire (and apothecary and shaman and so on) would drastically reduce build diversity and leave thief and mirage (and a few other fringe options) as the only viable condi options, as they don't "need" trailblazer the same way that a non-bursty melee build does. > > > > > > > > > > Tanky, melee, non-bursty condi builds should definitively exist and they need trailblazer. > > > > > > > > > > Also condi revenant most definitively runs trailblazer and the only problematic parts of the build is > > > > > > > > > > True Nature - Demon has 600 radius and is unavoidable (ignores evade, block and blind) and has the potential to "1-shot". > > > > > > > > > > Infuse Light (dragon heal) is problematic as it's the kinda skill that really carries people, especially when already outnumbering. > > > > > > > > > > This is why condi herald is hard to kill, not runes of Tormenting or trailblazer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wish Anet would implement something similar to ArcDPS dmg taken function in the core game so people could also see how rare it is that condition dmg is above 50% (or even above 30% for that matter). > > > > > > > > Actually, theyre not problematic, theyre both probably on the weaker side, I just used them as examples because they tend to use the same survivability as their power counterparts. Anyway, removing Trailblazer would keep the builds still viable. Even removing Dire would, you still have Rabid. Anyway, tanky condi builds are fine so long as they do the exact same level of damage as tanky power builds, instead of 3 or 4 times as much. They dont need Trailblazer, just like Prot Holo doesnt need Paladins, or even Demolishers. > > > > > > They definitively are, though imo not more than their power variants. > > > > > > > Their power variants also arent problematic. In case of Mesmer, less so. > > They are. > Again, hardly. Power Mesmer and power thief both are burst builds that dont burst very well. Theyre not even very good. > > > Rabid is not even close to the third best condi statcombo. It's maybe 6th best, if even that. > > > > > > > Hardly. There are others good if you got a bunch of healing, but most condi builds dont really have much. > > It's always about incoming dps vs incoming hps on condi builds that care about toughness in the first place > The point of Toughness is just to reduce power damage. Most condi builds also have ways of dealing with condis themselves. > > > There's plenty of tanky power builds that push out those levels of dmg, > > > > > > > Not really. Power builds are either tanky, or do that much damage. Not both. > > > > > Warrior in zerker+durability for example is tankier than most trailblaze/dire builds. > > > > > Zerker Durability? Nah. But there is a Durability build that is about as tanky as Trailblazer/Dire builds. It also does a fraction of their damage. > > Durability runes have been the go to for a very long time for warrior (and basically every other remotely tanky power build I guess) > They have been, but if you go Zerker Durability, youre not even half as tanky as a tanky condi build. > > > Scrapper is tanky in some mix of Marauder+zerk+durability and definitively does respectable damage > > > > > > > This one is pretty tanky. But its damage is, once again, a fraction of an equivalent tanky condi build. > > No it isn't, scrapper can do good dmg > It can do *decent* damage. But not even *remotely* in the ballpark of a condi build. With condi builds, youre looking at up to 10k burst damage, and sustained DPS of like 5k+ per second. On Scrapper, youre looking at half that, at *best*. Usually less. There is no comparision, Scrapper does only a fraction of the condi builds damage. > > > There's a ton more tanky power builds with high dmg, but not gonna list all of them here. > > > > > > > There are tanky builds that do a decent amount of damage. But accross all of them, you have the same issue. Theyre either less tanky, or do a fraction of the damage of the equivalent condi builds. Of course, Condi builds do have to contend with multiple condition cleanses, and they would *still* be superior. > > That's just incorrect. Warrior and scrapper for example are both very strong at the moment. Both are tanky power builds (that also have an extremely easy time dealing with condi). > Theyre decent builds. But that doesnt change the fact that they are either less tanky, or do *much* less damage, than condi builds. They have other strengths, utility and CC, but damage wise, its just such a huge gap. > > > I am actually in favor of demolisher existing in WvW, it would definitively see a lot of use. > > > > > > > Right now? It wouldnt. Its basically Marauders, but significantly worse against the currently overperforming condi builds. > > It definitively would, warrior would run at least a number of it. > Why would Warrior run it? There are hardly any Power builds around, and its a lot weaker against condi builds. There is legitimately *no* reason to drop Marauder for Demolishers. > > > Paladin too, though I think it wouldn't be particularly used. > > > > > > > It has a better chance, but probably not. > > No it doesn't. > It does. It gives vitality, which is the best defensive stat right now. There is at least a case to be made over Marauders. There isnt for Demolishers. > > > As far as I am concerned we should just be able to "create" or own stat combinations following the current rules. (ie 4 stat gives 10% more than 3 stat, with 2 big and 2 small stats etc.) > > > > > > > That would certainly break condi even more. Until it gets a rework (Which it does need badly), we shouldnt do anything like that. > > As condi I almost have my perfect stat combinations though. The ones I could create with such a system would be marginal improvements. > For power, there is no improvement at all. We pretty much have the most optimal combination, its sadly not a tanky one. We cant afford to play the tanky builds. > > > > I mean, that would not say much given that it depends on who youre facing, how often, and so on. But I can tell you this, every time I look through my combat log after roaming around in WvW for a couple hours, its almost entirely condition damage. > > > > > > "Look through combat log" > > > > > > Use arcdps. The combat log is trash. > > > > > > > The combat log perfectly represents the damage youve taken. Arcdps only makes it easier to read, but has issues with how it counts damage. > > It doesn't have any issues. > > > > I look through logs after every evening of smallscale WvW and also shortly after each fight. With an average group size of 3 (sometimes 2, rarely 4). > > > > > > I extremely rarely take more than 30% condi dmg. Much less 50% > > > > > > > If youre playing with a group, odds are you have AoE condi cleanses. Perhaps even once you dont notice. > > I actually would, because I know the build of everyone I play with. > > I know that a tempest isn't gonna throw me any clears, cause the only group clears it has is 1 clear on the shout heal and overload water, which is used very sparsely. > > I know that the other dps in my group doesn't actually have any AoE clears. > > Even so I can look at logs and conclude that I usually get about 1 clear/30 sec from others, hardly a massive amount. > Water Overload clears 4 conditions. I also cant imagine they wouldnt be running the water traitline which adds some more clears. But, if what you say is true, then youre just extremely lucky with your enemies. Especially because if what you say is true, a single Condition Revenant should rip and tear through your entire team. > > > The times I do are: > > > 1v1 with condi builds (lol) > > > Eating a big transfer from transfer herald > > > The time I get stuck in SoJ > > > > > > My support essentially has no group clears (WET tempest with powerful aura and no trooper runes, usually does roughly 10% of my clears according to logs) and I mostly just have sigil of cleansing as my clears, so hardly overloading on anti-condi stuff. > > > > > > This is with permanent protection as well so I "should" be taking more condi dmg than power. > > > > Then perhaps you just got extremely lucky. Its *very* rare for me to take more power than condi damage. Obviously, most roamers I meet are condi because its better, and they do more damage, because its better. And keep in mind, Im playing Core Engineer with Elixir C and its *still* not enough. > > I got extremely "lucky" in almost every fight, every evening since the patch across a multitude of various matchups. > > Sounds very likely. > About as likely as being able to survive a condi rev with just Sigil of Cleansing. Which is to say, not possible. Ergo, you mustve been able to avoid Condi Revs entirely. Because if you actually faced one, you would get condi bombed, use Sigil of cleansing, get condi bombed *again* and die in 2 seconds. Given that, it means that if youre not taking that much condi damage, you just arent facing condi builds. Simple as that. > I wish I was fighting more condi then I could just equip one of the many extremely strong counters and take vastly less dmg than I do now. > > You do realize that clears aren't supposed to make you immune right, just delay your death. So that you can kill them before they kill you. Of you frequently struggle it's either a player error or your build should run more clears. > Thats the theory. In actuality, the way it works out is that you try to delay your death 4 or 5 times, and then die anyway because even with an abundance of condi clears, the enemy build is both much tankier and does a metric crapton more damage than you do. To put it bluntly, my build cannot run any more condi clears. Its literally maxed out on them. Including several that clear the entire condi bomb. And guess what? Its *still* nowhere close enough. > I somehow don't struggle with sigil of cleansing being about 75% of my clears. Which simply means you arent facing condi builds. If you did, you would simply lose instantly because Sigil of Cleansing is about 15 condis cleansed too little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"Gorani.7205" said: > My subjective observations (running a Marauder Tempest for roaming & small scale fights with allies) > I encounter power based one shot builds a lot less and do a lot better vs. power based builds, especially Thieves. > I see a lot more condi based professions around, especially Rev/Herald and Necros. The number of condis they can dump on you compared to my cleanses makes them winners in fights that drag out. Losing some punch by CC skills not having a decent damage component seems to be as much a factor as power having lost its big spike potential. > I have to admit, I don't run Runes/Sigils that remove condis, but the fact that this is strongly advised at the moment should be an indication of some Condi "supremacy" over Power specs. Condi support tempest dose better in both small and big groups as it heals and can do ok dmg. THAT the problem with condi atm it lets you become too fixable over power dmg. There are simply missing combos that you find on condi dmg side but not on power dmg (even the combos that are healing / power dmg main have condi dmg in them so these sadly fall short for that power dmg healing build dream.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pninak.1069 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 yea I don't believe you. I have had fights against condis. I play condi mirage myself and got 2 cleanses only. both for just one condition too. and I manage to win against fb and scourges which have way more different condis than I do. obviously you don't pay attention to when is the ideal time to cleanse and instead cleanse before the comdibomb even happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"pninak.1069" said: > yea I don't believe you. I have had fights against condis. I play condi mirage myself and got 2 cleanses only. both for just one condition too. and I manage to win against fb and scourges which have way more different condis than I do. obviously you don't pay attention to when is the ideal time to cleanse and instead cleanse before the comdibomb even happens. Lets play that game then, shall we? So, fight starts. The Scourge does, lets say, Dessicate into Manifest Sand Shade. If you dont *immediately* cleanse conditions, youre dead. Alright, you do. You cleanse 2 conditions, which lets say you get lucky and hit torment and burning. Now they use Garish Pillar, Ghastly Breach, into a second Manifest Sand Shade. You have *well* beyond lethal amounts of conditions on you. And no cleanses left. Youre dead, gg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pninak.1069 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 wrong. I cleanse one condi on first teleport to him condi bomb and if I have condis left I clear atleast one. if I am about to die I use a 3 clone shatter of diversion and save 3 seconds of life to do dmg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pninak.1069 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 also you forgot I got no boons going into the fight so your whole argument is false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"pninak.1069" said: > wrong. I cleanse one condi on first teleport to him condi bomb and if I have condis left I clear atleast one. if I am about to die I use a 3 clone shatter of diversion and save 3 seconds of life to do dmg > You cleanse on condition, and if you fail to hit the burning, you just die. Not the uh, greatest idea. Actually Im not sure you survive if you dont cleanse the torment either. And you dont get to live long enough to even get 3 clones. Nevermind the fact that he might just fear you when you jump on him. And no, I assumed you didnt have boons. Theyre not neccessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lodjur.1284 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > Condi Rev doesnt because they just want to do *even more damage*, and their survivability is fine even without defensive stats. > > > > > > > > And other classes? You know the classes that have long since realized they need the sustain to be viable fighting power builds? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem is, you know who else realised that? *Power builds*. Difference is, they cant go full damage while going full defense at the same time. And, well, their survivability is fine. Take condi thief, or even Condi Mirage. Their survivability would be the *exact same* as the equivalent power build, if they had the same defensive stats. They just get to take a bunch of free tankiness ontop of that. > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi thief and mirage are indeed problematic, the armor stats aren't the problems though. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's the class design, even as condi they're highly mobile and bursty. > > > > > > > > > > > > The only solution I can see is to force their condi weapons into hybrid ones, to the point where they need to run Viper/Grieving to achieve respectable damage, or completely gutting their power variants. > > > > > > > > > > > > Removing trailblazer/dire (and apothecary and shaman and so on) would drastically reduce build diversity and leave thief and mirage (and a few other fringe options) as the only viable condi options, as they don't "need" trailblazer the same way that a non-bursty melee build does. > > > > > > > > > > > > Tanky, melee, non-bursty condi builds should definitively exist and they need trailblazer. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also condi revenant most definitively runs trailblazer and the only problematic parts of the build is > > > > > > > > > > > > True Nature - Demon has 600 radius and is unavoidable (ignores evade, block and blind) and has the potential to "1-shot". > > > > > > > > > > > > Infuse Light (dragon heal) is problematic as it's the kinda skill that really carries people, especially when already outnumbering. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why condi herald is hard to kill, not runes of Tormenting or trailblazer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wish Anet would implement something similar to ArcDPS dmg taken function in the core game so people could also see how rare it is that condition dmg is above 50% (or even above 30% for that matter). > > > > > > > > > > Actually, theyre not problematic, theyre both probably on the weaker side, I just used them as examples because they tend to use the same survivability as their power counterparts. Anyway, removing Trailblazer would keep the builds still viable. Even removing Dire would, you still have Rabid. Anyway, tanky condi builds are fine so long as they do the exact same level of damage as tanky power builds, instead of 3 or 4 times as much. They dont need Trailblazer, just like Prot Holo doesnt need Paladins, or even Demolishers. > > > > > > > > They definitively are, though imo not more than their power variants. > > > > > > > > > > Their power variants also arent problematic. In case of Mesmer, less so. > > > > They are. > > > > Again, hardly. Power Mesmer and power thief both are burst builds that dont burst very well. Theyre not even very good. Problematic =/= good Both are very strong 1v1 too so eh. Ghost thief was never good, but it was definitively problematic. > > > > Rabid is not even close to the third best condi statcombo. It's maybe 6th best, if even that. > > > > > > > > > > Hardly. There are others good if you got a bunch of healing, but most condi builds dont really have much. > > > > It's always about incoming dps vs incoming hps on condi builds that care about toughness in the first place > > > > The point of Toughness is just to reduce power damage. Most condi builds also have ways of dealing with condis themselves. Of course they do. Why wouldn't they? Even if there was no condi dmg at all, sigil of cleansing would still be the best sigil in the game just to clear immobilize/chill etc. > > > > There's plenty of tanky power builds that push out those levels of dmg, > > > > > > > > > > Not really. Power builds are either tanky, or do that much damage. Not both. > > > > > > > Warrior in zerker+durability for example is tankier than most trailblaze/dire builds. > > > > > > > Zerker Durability? Nah. But there is a Durability build that is about as tanky as Trailblazer/Dire builds. It also does a fraction of their damage. > > > > Durability runes have been the go to for a very long time for warrior (and basically every other remotely tanky power build I guess) > > > > They have been, but if you go Zerker Durability, youre not even half as tanky as a tanky condi build. Between your various invulns/blocks/resistance etc, together with very high mobility, you very much are at least as tanky as a condi rev. > > > > Scrapper is tanky in some mix of Marauder+zerk+durability and definitively does respectable damage > > > > > > > > > > This one is pretty tanky. But its damage is, once again, a fraction of an equivalent tanky condi build. > > > > No it isn't, scrapper can do good dmg > > > > It can do *decent* damage. But not even *remotely* in the ballpark of a condi build. With condi builds, youre looking at up to 10k burst damage, and sustained DPS of like 5k+ per second. On Scrapper, youre looking at half that, at *best*. Usually less. There is no comparision, Scrapper does only a fraction of the condi builds damage. If a scrapper is only doing half of a condi rev in the same situation they're flat out playing bad, or have a very bad scrapper build. Probably both. 5k per second lmao, talk about hyperbole. Assuming you mean single target, cause on AoE or just depends on the number of targets, more so than the skills used. It's rare that I get incoming dmg of over 2. 5k/sec vs power or condi in 1v1s. This while playing a build with low avoidance uptime, so the numbers are fairly reasonable. > > > > There's a ton more tanky power builds with high dmg, but not gonna list all of them here. > > > > > > > > > > There are tanky builds that do a decent amount of damage. But accross all of them, you have the same issue. Theyre either less tanky, or do a fraction of the damage of the equivalent condi builds. Of course, Condi builds do have to contend with multiple condition cleanses, and they would *still* be superior. > > > > That's just incorrect. Warrior and scrapper for example are both very strong at the moment. Both are tanky power builds (that also have an extremely easy time dealing with condi). > > > > Theyre decent builds. But that doesnt change the fact that they are either less tanky, or do *much* less damage, than condi builds. They have other strengths, utility and CC, but damage wise, its just such a huge gap. The dmg gap isn't massive. They're comparable, obviously some condi builds have a little bit more sustained dmg as they lack burst (and therefore should have more sustained dmg). > > > > I am actually in favor of demolisher existing in WvW, it would definitively see a lot of use. > > > > > > > > > > Right now? It wouldnt. Its basically Marauders, but significantly worse against the currently overperforming condi builds. > > > > It definitively would, warrior would run at least a number of it. > > > > Why would Warrior run it? There are hardly any Power builds around, and its a lot weaker against condi builds. There is legitimately *no* reason to drop Marauder for Demolishers. Warrior shouldn't run Marauder atm, it's terrible. They already have like 22k hp with durability runes in pure zerk. Demolisher would def be optimal to run a number of. > > > > Paladin too, though I think it wouldn't be particularly used. > > > > > > > > > > It has a better chance, but probably not. > > > > No it doesn't. > > > > It does. It gives vitality, which is the best defensive stat right now. There is at least a case to be made over Marauders. There isnt for Demolishers. Vitality makes you die slower, it doesn't make you survive, after roughly the 20-25k mark it's fairly pointless on most builds, toughness shifts the incoming dps vs hps in your favor. > > > > As far as I am concerned we should just be able to "create" or own stat combinations following the current rules. (ie 4 stat gives 10% more than 3 stat, with 2 big and 2 small stats etc.) > > > > > > > > > > That would certainly break condi even more. Until it gets a rework (Which it does need badly), we shouldnt do anything like that. > > > > As condi I almost have my perfect stat combinations though. The ones I could create with such a system would be marginal improvements. > > > > For power, there is no improvement at all. We pretty much have the most optimal combination, its sadly not a tanky one. We cant afford to play the tanky builds. Marauder but with big ferocity instead of precision (and small precision) would see a lot of use, especially in combination with Marauder to max out effective power. Marauder but with healing power instead of vit would see some use, it would be especially strong vs condi. Just 2 power stat combos of the top of my head, I am sure there's a lot more that would see some use. > > > > > I mean, that would not say much given that it depends on who youre facing, how often, and so on. But I can tell you this, every time I look through my combat log after roaming around in WvW for a couple hours, its almost entirely condition damage. > > > > > > > > "Look through combat log" > > > > > > > > Use arcdps. The combat log is trash. > > > > > > > > > > The combat log perfectly represents the damage youve taken. Arcdps only makes it easier to read, but has issues with how it counts damage. > > > > It doesn't have any issues. > > > > > > I look through logs after every evening of smallscale WvW and also shortly after each fight. With an average group size of 3 (sometimes 2, rarely 4). > > > > > > > > I extremely rarely take more than 30% condi dmg. Much less 50% > > > > > > > > > > If youre playing with a group, odds are you have AoE condi cleanses. Perhaps even once you dont notice. > > > > I actually would, because I know the build of everyone I play with. > > > > I know that a tempest isn't gonna throw me any clears, cause the only group clears it has is 1 clear on the shout heal and overload water, which is used very sparsely. > > > > I know that the other dps in my group doesn't actually have any AoE clears. > > > > Even so I can look at logs and conclude that I usually get about 1 clear/30 sec from others, hardly a massive amount. > > > > Water Overload clears 4 conditions. I also cant imagine they wouldnt be running the water traitline which adds some more clears. But, if what you say is true, then youre just extremely lucky with your enemies. Especially because if what you say is true, a single Condition Revenant should rip and tear through your entire team. Water doesn't actually give much clear of you take powerful aura. Especially if you also take soothing disruption, which the tempest in question does. As I said in most fights it averages out to 1 clear/25-35 sec. Overload water isn't exactly something you can spam when outnumbered since you will just get CCed get water on 20 sec cd and die. Also we just cc and kill the condi revs before they do. Condi rev is also weak to power so you shouldn't really struggle with them. > > > > The times I do are: > > > > 1v1 with condi builds (lol) > > > > Eating a big transfer from transfer herald > > > > The time I get stuck in SoJ > > > > > > > > My support essentially has no group clears (WET tempest with powerful aura and no trooper runes, usually does roughly 10% of my clears according to logs) and I mostly just have sigil of cleansing as my clears, so hardly overloading on anti-condi stuff. > > > > > > > > This is with permanent protection as well so I "should" be taking more condi dmg than power. > > > > > > Then perhaps you just got extremely lucky. Its *very* rare for me to take more power than condi damage. Obviously, most roamers I meet are condi because its better, and they do more damage, because its better. And keep in mind, Im playing Core Engineer with Elixir C and its *still* not enough. > > > > I got extremely "lucky" in almost every fight, every evening since the patch across a multitude of various matchups. > > > > Sounds very likely. > > > > About as likely as being able to survive a condi rev with just Sigil of Cleansing. Which is to say, not possible. Ergo, you mustve been able to avoid Condi Revs entirely. Because if you actually faced one, you would get condi bombed, use Sigil of cleansing, get condi bombed *again* and die in 2 seconds. Given that, it means that if youre not taking that much condi damage, you just arent facing condi builds. Simple as that. Have you tried combining cleansing with dodging key skills, counterpressuring, stunning them etc? > > I wish I was fighting more condi then I could just equip one of the many extremely strong counters and take vastly less dmg than I do now. > > > > You do realize that clears aren't supposed to make you immune right, just delay your death. So that you can kill them before they kill you. Of you frequently struggle it's either a player error or your build should run more clears. > > > > Thats the theory. In actuality, the way it works out is that you try to delay your death 4 or 5 times, and then die anyway because even with an abundance of condi clears, the enemy build is both much tankier and does a metric crapton more damage than you do. To put it bluntly, my build cannot run any more condi clears. Its literally maxed out on them. Including several that clear the entire condi bomb. And guess what? Its *still* nowhere close enough. Then you're not pressuring them back and ccing them, you could just be playing worse than they are, or your build might lack pressure. > > I somehow don't struggle with sigil of cleansing being about 75% of my clears. > > Which simply means you arent facing condi builds. If you did, you would simply lose instantly because Sigil of Cleansing is about 15 condis cleansed too little. I fight them quite frequently, transfer heralds specifically are very common and people like to bust them out to try to kill you with true nature Demon alone. Not as often as power builds though. I of course like anyone every now and then have fights where condi dmg is the bulk of what kills me, but they're fairly rare. Both dmg types would have the possibility of killing enemies, so that I every now and then die to mostly condi is fairly natural. The fact remains that it's far less common than how often power is the bulk of the dmg I take. > @"Gorani.7205" said: > My subjective observations (running a Marauder Tempest for roaming & small scale fights with allies) > I encounter power based one shot builds a lot less and do a lot better vs. power based builds, especially Thieves. > I see a lot more condi based professions around, especially Rev/Herald and Necros. The number of condis they can dump on you compared to my cleanses makes them winners in fights that drag out. Losing some punch by CC skills not having a decent damage component seems to be as much a factor as power having lost its big spike potential. > I have to admit, I don't run Runes/Sigils that remove condis, but the fact that this is strongly advised at the moment should be an indication of some Condi "supremacy" over Power specs. So you shouldn't have to run any condi clears? Sigil of cleansing would be the strongest sigil even if condi dmg didn't exist, because immob exists (and the other debilitating conditions). Giving up a sigil is such an extremely tiny concession and cleansing does so much versus it, so tbh if you don't run cleansing and die to condi it's your own fault. Power is still dominant. Like it's always been (or at least it has the entire time I played, which is since slightly pre-HoT) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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