Lily.1935

> @"Dadnir.5038" said: > I would say that it's a bit more complicated than a lack of maintenance. > > The issue is more that the balance focus to much on the core tenets of each profession, leading to imbalance by over-emphasys of those core tenets. Most things are good when in an healthy amount, however when you put the concept of healthy amount behind you, it become imbalanced. > > The necromancer is the perfect example of that. Number wise and weaknesses wise it's more or less balanced, however he used to have different options (less in line with it's thematic) that have been discarded in favor of it's thematic option. And this lead to imbalance. > - Fear: At release the necromancer had 3 sources of fear, Downstate, Staff#5 and _Doom_. Nowaday, it's downstate, staff#5, 1 in the shroud mechanism, _Spectral ring_, lich#3 and stability conversion. Not to mention the increased amount of traits effects supporting fear. Let's be honest, it's no longer an healthy amount. > - Boon conversion: The necromancer used to have half boon conversion and half boon rip. Now, only a single boon riping effect remain while the number of boon conversion effects have been excessively increased to keep in check the growing amount of boons on other professions. Let's be honest, it's no longer an healthy amount. > - Life leeching: The necromancer used to have some life leeching ability but it's been increased so much that it even hinder it's ability to deal damage. And yet the mechanism still feel lackluster. Let's be honest, it's no longer an healthy amount and in this case maybe the mechanism should have been looked at. > - The shroud: The shroud used to be a very pale shadow of what we got right now. It used to be better to flash shroud for damage and stay in shroud for defense. Now you need to stay in shroud for everything. Let's be honest, it's no longer an healthy amount. > - Area denial: The necromancer used to only rely on well and staff for area denial, now it's everywhere and scourge pushed area denial to the next level. Let's be honest, it's no longer an healthy amount. > - ... etc. > > Keep in mind that the necromancer here is just an example, every profession got the same treatment. Every profession have been bloated with their own thematical tools to an unhealthy amount. Hopefully I can respond to all this because I don't agree necromancer was ever health or had a healthy amount of anything. Necromancer from my perspective has been the worst balanced and designed class up until revenant came out. If I'm misunderstanding you please clarify what you mean. Fear: You're talking 2012-2013 because the vast majority of GW2's life necromancer has had little fear. Way too much dedication to it in traits and even at it's most prevalent, which wasn't today, it was lacking. The knockdown trait in death, the fear of death trait used to cause fear when you downed, spectral wall started as vulnerability but that didn't last. We lost 2 and gained 2 sources of fear. Boon conversation: Necromancer used to corrupt all boons with corrupt boon, used to have a signet trait that would remove boons on activation, had boon corruption on scepter auto. The issue here isn't boon corruption in my opinion. Scourge showed us that they have more options. I would argue all of necromancer's boon removal should be boon corruption and what condition it gets corrupted into could be narrow specific conditions half the time. My reasoning is to have potential trait synergy. Boon removal used to be higher for core necromancer but not that much. The signet trait used to be boon corruption if I remember correctly. Seems much of it was moved to scourge. Boons and boon removal is hotly debated though. Life Leeching: I'm not sure what you're point is here. Life leeching was always pretty bad on necromancer. Only revenant really made it work for themselves and that seems to be because arena net isn't afraid to give it real power behind it.... not only that it didn't used to function in shroud at all. Shroud: Shroud flashing was not good design. It discouraged the player from truly engaging with their mechanic. But after 8 years I still think shroud is a bad mechanic that can only be poorly balanced. If shroud flashing was more you enter for 5-10 seconds and pop out then it would have been better. But it wasn't. It was literally you get out as soon as possible because it was just that bad. Reaper does do the 5-10 second in and out of shroud. And it's more engaging than core necromancer. You should engage with your unique mechanic. That's part of the draw to play the class. The fact that we didn't was not a good thing. Area Denial: mmm. I don't have an opinion on this one. I'll have to think about it. There's no denying that necromancer is far far better at area denial than it used to be. Although 10 second recharge sand Savant with crippling pulses I'd say was its peek.. But I don't see this as a bad thing or a good thing. Perhaps you can elaborate on what your issue with it is?

> @"Anchoku.8142" said: > Core Necromancer still has the problems that made it bad for instanced PvE in 2012. > 1. Death Shroud is designed for 1v1 power build support so it has low value on any condi dps build but stronger on low-cleave power builds, which are bad on large hit box bosses. Core Necro has a lot of low-damage area-denial and can 1v1 but is very bad versus bosses. Points 2 and 3 help explain. Agreed, though it was worse in 2012 its still quite a problem. To your points here I'll address them one by one. Death shroud in itself seems to be minor pressure as it buys time in 1v1. And the lower the overall damage in PvP the better it does. None of the skills in shroud are particularly noteworthy. Considering how much the necromancer's kit is loaded into shroud and how poorly shroud is balanced, it leaves it wanting in other formats where its mechanical design hampers it more than helps. > 2. Core has very low cleave dps (power or condi), not just a little low but very low, and has poor group utility without barrier or other buffs to make up for it. Running core Necro in instanced group PvE is asking to be carried. It is only viable if squads become happy to carry even top-skilled Core Necro's who do not want to switch to a meta prof/spec for whatever reason. Agreed. Although I don't personally feel cleave is that big of an issue since classes can have low cleave DPS or next to none and do incredibly well. Deadeye has quite a bit of utility beyond cleaving and can hit quite hard. The bigger issue is how little support the necromancer provides at its baseline due to how heavily they're loaded into death shroud which seems tuned to fight a very very narrow niche. > 3. Indomitable/Defiant is a direct, hard-counter to most of core Necro's soft-CC condi output. Only scepter's auto attack chain has any significant damage output and Epidemic bouncing is dead. This is an 8 year old problem and, therefore, must be exceedingly difficult to fix. I think there are other means to solve the issue, though I wont argue with its difficulty. I think the big issue is that what the necromancer does well is hyper limited while other classes do what necromancer does but better. Baring resing allies and applying barrier. Which I'd argue narrow their scope far beyond what is normal for the existing professions. I'd argue their biggest issue is their lack of baseline support. Why doesn't Blood is power for example give both might and Fury to allies? Why just a highly common Boon but not one that is a bit more rare? Or why doesn't it just deal far more damage? Its a odd skill I'd say should be support yet isn't. Why does Necromancer have to dodge with blood magic to grant regeneration when there is nothing in their design that benefits from dodge beside that singular minor trait? Why is it that Signet of Vampirism is so difficult to use and outclassed by a relatively spammable elite on Renegade? Why doesn't staff apply more support than just regen as long as a foe is right on top of the party? Why is it that the scourge is given such high concentration for their minor and only might to really take advantage of it? At that point why have the concentration why not just turn it to healing power? But perhaps I'm getting ahead of myself. > > Scourge is kind of like a Druid that was nerfed even harder. It has limited use in instanced PvE because of that and is why I suggested a trait to swap between barrier and dps would be nice. Scourge's condi dps in PvE was nerfed severely from PoF release before PvP and WvW balancing was separated from PvE so right now Scourge dps is what makes barrier-slave Scourge competitive in instanced PvE. That restricts Scourge to a specific squad slot and build. If it had a way to "turn off" barrier sharing and increase dps, Scourge could switch to a condi-dps build with condi-cleave like Reaper has with power cleave. Right now, swapping to power-Reaper via build templates is the only way to stay with the profession and be acceptable in a dps slot. > > In contrast, core Necro may not be meta in WvW like it was before Scourge replaced it and the expansion's other elites were added but it still has fair value. > > Also, Core Necro actually gained sustain in PvP with damage being removed from control effect skills making core shroud strong enough to need solid nerfing. > > Finally, core Necro is fine in open world PvE where taking a long time to solo a boss allows other players time to join. It is only in instanced PvE where core is so bad that using it at all is stubbornly asking the group to carry you and I hate seeing any profession in that state. I personally don't think Scourge does enough on either side of its spectrum. Either for support of for DPS. As I sorta explained above. To me it looks like an issue of the core as well as the elite spec. There's a lot of wasted potential in the necromancer And I personally would sacrifice barrier and death shroud in favor of more DPS and party utility. As for your point on Core necromancer in open world, I don't take that as a good argument on either side. From my subjective opinion core necromancer is incredibly boring to play. And the builds it offers for new players have little to no translation into how the two elite specs play in PvE. This to me even makes the transition a rocky one and could be a source of conflict for new players as they attempt to transition into the high end content. As for some suggestions I've made, I've done quite a few. If you want to see them I can post a few, I talk at length about a lot of issues with the game, some of my opinions are controversial as I'm aware. https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/117391/death-shroud-suggestions#latest https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/117073/reaper-suggestions#latest https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/117789/scourge-suggestions#latest As a note to this. I don't necessarily stand by every suggestion I've made in these. As my opinions and perspective is subject to change and evolve and these are a bit old as far as posts go. I do have further perspectives On the PvE issue I've been contemplating though these are just fledgling ideas and not set in stone. Such as the idea of an Aggro system which i've talked about before on the forums but haven't made an official post on due to its complexity and my uncertain position with it. I'm leaning toward it being a good idea for PvE as I do feel the function and behavior of NPCs is so drastically different from PvP that unique balance taking place in PvE is probably the correct path, though I wont debate that today. Another concept I had was unique behavior of NPCs. One such example is the Seekers in the Vale guardian fight. You can knock them back with Druid but applying fear almost just immobilizes them. This further harms the control function of fear which is notoriously poor in PvE and I'd suggest a behavioral function for these seekers to trigger on being feared to flee the player at at least a player's Running pace as opposed to going as slow as they do. But that's just one example. I've been dragged back into this conversation and not by you, I just wanted to expand on what you were saying with my own perspective.

> @"SunTzu.4513" said: > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > @"SunTzu.4513" said: > > > Another point is that a lot of necro players are just not good at playing the class. I play necro since day one. We are the new Bearbows. Necros surviveability in ow teaches a lot of bad habits. If i run an fractal or strikes in 9 from 10 times a necro show up the player just dosen's know what hes doing and you can be happy if hes running a group oriented build. This leaves bad impression and solidify the prejudice that necro is a bad class. Ironicly on the other hand if you get a good necro in a T4 or cm fractal on a pug group imo the chance to get it done smooth is pretty good. Necro may have not the top notch damage or best utility but in unorganized groups it really shines and can carry hard. > > > > Necromancer was the worst class during the Bearbow meme. Necromancer was just so incredibly underwhelming and weak that even an optimal necromancer was doing very little. > > > > People make the assumption that ranger was the worst class but this was never the case. Ranger was just the most egregiously annoying. > > Yes thats excatly what i mean but the right words to express what i want to say didn't come to my mind yesterday. I'm relearning english atm haven't use it for a longer period. > Imo their easy accessibility (what draws people to the class together with the pet companion) and gameplay combined with the longbow especially the knock back gave them a back reputation back then. Imo necro is in the same spot these days. Incredible surviveabilty matched with super easy gameplay (In the OW you don't even need to bother with useing you dodge most of the time) bring a lot of players to the class. The skill gap is already extreme in this game between the differnt players. Other classes need to use their defensiv toolkit and dodge if you hit HoT. A necro still facreoll trough the content. And if you dying/struggle just go full MM Blood/Deatmagic. This kind of gameplay translate badly into group content. And a lot of necro players brings this mindset into group content. So they get recognize as bad. This combined with the meta gave us a really bad reputation. > I'm hoping for the new elite spec to get into a better palce on the pve side. But i was hoping this for Scourge too. I really like to play it but the spec has it's problems too in pve not even talking about pvp/wvw balance wise. Necromancer has a lot of problems in PvE, but I'm really far far less hard on it than I used to be because Arena net have made strides to improve it in the format. For PvP and WvW, I have some issues with it there as well, but its less so. I've talked at length about Scourge and reaper changes I'd like to see to better diversify their kit and aid them. Scourge is low DPS at the moment and considering how difficult their DPS build is actually to pull off you often see terrible scourge's in Raids who don't know how to do their rotation properly(Soft rotation, but it is a rotation). And will often burn their life force way too quickly, fail to summon their shades on time, fail to combo their skills properly and its just a mess to have them. I personally wont refuse them in our raids since we have good players and their extra CC and DPS still helps even if their not optimal, but this poor play doesn't reflect well on groups. Reaper has the same problems only being viable in a few raid encounters much like scourge, and for the most part they swap off pretty well on which is good where, the issue is they're just on the cusp of having competitive DPS and considering their only a DPS spec it makes them less desirable in spite of their superior DPS to scourge. I think Reaper needs some minor tweaks in comparison to scourge. Nothing major, but I would like to see them reworked just a bit to better embody their 3 trait lines of being Sustain, Chill and DPS pursuit, that was the original intention. Scourge needs a bit more work to be brought up to speed but they're not that far off either. As for core, Core necromancer is so incredibly bad that there really isn't much that can be done with minor tweaks. They're not just behind the Elite specs but leagues behind. And they're not very fun to play. There is multiple directions arena net could do to improve core and I've suggested a few. One such idea was to add unique effects to traits that interact with Death shroud in a more unique and transformative way as to not overpower or even change anything about the elite specs. One thing that the Necromancer does well in PvE that no other class comes close to is their Damage mitigation and Res ability. Their ability to apply barrier and res allies is second to none. Which I don't personally feel giving barrier needs to be unique, but their ability to res is great. This has lead to them being fantastic healers for low skilled groups which I think is valuable for sure. I would like to see far more support though, especially built into the core class. I can forgive low damage if the support is there but its so narrow in use and so limited where I have an issue. Sorry that was a bit ranty. I do agree on the minions. I feel they need to be improved. Bone minions using the charge system and upping their numbers to 3 as well as increasing bone fiend's number to 2 also with the charge system with a stronger activation could be a great start in the right direction. Giving Bone minions real utility since they are blast finishers and having that steady stream of damage without disruption as they respawn passively would be exceptionally helpful and better help players transition into Fractals and raids. Weapons are another story. There are improvements that should be made to every single weapon for core necromancer's kit. Daggers don't have a lot of kick to them and don't synergize well with each other and is clunky to use even trying to combo their own skills. Axe Auto Attack has had a broken animation for females for years now, Scepter is great while traited but underwhelming when not, focus is disappointing, I could go on. As for Elite specs. I think what we need is a true Glass cannon spec. Or Glass cannon support. Not a reaper who is a bruiser or a defensive support DPS like scourge. Hard hitting, glassy, offensive support.

> @"SunTzu.4513" said: > Another point is that a lot of necro players are just not good at playing the class. I play necro since day one. We are the new Bearbows. Necros surviveability in ow teaches a lot of bad habits. If i run an fractal or strikes in 9 from 10 times a necro show up the player just dosen's know what hes doing and you can be happy if hes running a group oriented build. This leaves bad impression and solidify the prejudice that necro is a bad class. Ironicly on the other hand if you get a good necro in a T4 or cm fractal on a pug group imo the chance to get it done smooth is pretty good. Necro may have not the top notch damage or best utility but in unorganized groups it really shines and can carry hard. Necromancer was the worst class during the Bearbow meme. Necromancer was just so incredibly underwhelming and weak that even an optimal necromancer was doing very little. People make the assumption that ranger was the worst class but this was never the case. Ranger was just the most egregiously annoying.

> @"Dadnir.5038" said: > Well, at least it's difficult for sPvP/WvW players to claim that ANet ruin their gamemode with PvE balance. > > The main issue I have with PvE balance isn't the balance of the "P" but the balance of some mechanisms of the "E". And unfortunately, it seem that balancing those mechanisms either isn't high on the priority list of the game developpers or might come with the next x-Pack (which will bring with him it's own share of "issues" anyway). I have issues with both sides which I've made statements about over the past year. My suggestions for turret reworks and Minion improvements for example of Profession specific issues. As for environmental issues, I agree. Enemies aren't very distinct from one another even across enemy types. And some that are different are radically different. Other issues is that there needs to be specific balance design separate from PvP and WvW because the goals of PvE are very different from those formats due to how Enemy AI functions. Guild wars 1 for example had enemies that used player skills and team compositions that forced you to engage with them in a similar manner you would a player so the transition between game modes was much easier. But even that system couldn't function without skill splits and sometimes drastically so. Enemies in GW2 are so drastically different from how they are in GW1 arena net's attempts to try and tackle the balance in much the same way is not a good method to do. They need to do much more. As a note to that a proper agro system is completely useless for PvP and fairly useless for WvW as well, but this would be incredibly helpful to the diversity of PvE allowing for new sort of control/tank builds to gain in popularity. Arena net has solid support and solid DPS roles for groups but the third pillar of their trinity, the control pillar, is exceptionally weak in PvE. This puts tank builds firmly Into the support role so they need to be doing double duty and it has limited the game to one viable tank. Chronomancer doesn't need to also be a tank. They are fantastic as a DPS support and a highly desired elite spec. They could afford to give that role up to the Warriors, Guardians, Scrappers and Reapers. Of course that's a rant I've been going on and on about for months now. I do agree that Environmental balance could and should be included. Boons on enemies often require them to be cast by that enemy NPC to be applied. This can work if that NPC is a party buffer. However for some enemies this basically leaves them open to a free attack such as for trolls casting to get regen. Regen should be a passive self applied boon on trolls either at all times or as soon as they engage with the players. Likely reapply every 20 or 30 seconds and last that long. Beyond just the passive boons, some enemies should have unique buffs associated with their boons. Like a Turtle that always has protection and blocks bonus damage from critical hits while its protected. Or a giant that as long as its might is active its attacks knock back. These might not be the best examples, but they're just an idea to make you think more about engagements with basic enemies. I do agree with you. But I'd also go a step further and say PvE needs some more unique mechanics such as a threat system that also requires some unique balance for classes to interact with.

> @"SinisterSlay.6973" said: > I like open world PvE unbalanced. More fun that way when you can switch characters and have completely different builds, play styles, and challenges. I do that a lot. Some issues arise though. As what experimentation is available is limited still. I do some neat builds like Drunk scrapper and Dread chillreaper. But in comparison to what's effective they tend to lack heavily. Can't really do open world on my own as a healer either. That's limited to Strikes, Raids and Fractals.

> @"Dante.1508" said: > Gotta keep up with the Meta little Hamster. Don't let that treadmill slow down. The meta hasn't changed in quite a while and not at all dramatically.

I was there a couple months after release. I remember quite a bit. Small Marks At location wells Stability blocking all CC Death jumps Only 4 skills in shroud So on and so on. We used to have multiple traits for a single skill type now that's exclusive to Minions which is less a skill type and more a secondary mechanic like Guardian symbols. My necro is pretty old and she's gone through a lot of changes. Here's hoping for more support from our elite specs and a glass cannon spec.

> @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > For me, I'd like to see terrormancer become a thing. Maybe not raid viable but at least threatening enough in PvP, wvw and open world PvE. It's too cute atm and strictly worse than both terror scourge and terror reaper which both under preform. > > It is already threatening enough in sPvP/WvW, we've already peoples complaining about the necromancer's fear all over the sPvP subforum. > > Personally, I don't like how fear work in GW2. It's useful and in line with what some other CC can do but I'm just not a fan of this mechanism. I think that among the games I know, the one that express "fear" the best is LOTRO and in GW2 it would be translated as a vitality debuff stackable in intensity (In GW it would not have been far from what the condition _Deep wound_ do, it's just that a %age would be a bit OP in the PvE of a game like GW2). A lot of Guild wars 2 design, along with most RPGs, is based on the design of Dungeons and dragons. So they frequently adapt systems from D&D into their game engine. Fear is no exception to this as it does the same thing in D&D. D&D has more involuntary movement though, GW2 only having fear and taunt. So that's why its designed the way it is. For LOTRO, the themes of the game are a bit different. The characters are usually afraid so fear makes sense to act more as a debuff than a control ability as one of the themes of LOTR is perseverance through adversity. So it makes sense that it would function differently. As for the % vitality debuff idea, Honestly, that would be too OP in PvP let alone PvE. So as exciting as a deep wound would be to me, It just wouldn't be good for GW2's design.

> @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > Fear is break bar degen it's not instant like daze. Which makes it inferior in raids and fractals. Its break bar damage is about the same overall but considering the duration and time spent its lacking. On something like Damos it doesn't work at all. Fear in PvE is poorly balanced which is a shame. Same goes for taunt. > > Where _fear_ and _taunt_ are superior is in the fact that they are not removed by other control effects. It's not a very interesting point against _defiant_ foes but the necromancer's tools being hard nerfed by _defiance_ is not anything new. They're in such an odd spot for PvE. Personally, I'd like arena to create a threat mechanic in PvE as opposed to toughness tanking. If fear and taunt decreased and increased your threat respectively in relation to other skills generating or reducing threat those two conditions could have some fun utility. But that's a whole other conversation. For me, I'd like to see terrormancer become a thing. Maybe not raid viable but at least threatening enough in PvP, wvw and open world PvE. It's too cute atm and strictly worse than both terror scourge and terror reaper which both under preform.

> @"Teratus.2859" said: > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > > > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > > > > > @"killfil.3472" said: > > > > > > > I did always find it strange that Wail of Doom dazes rather than fear. > > > > > > > > > > > > In the Demo of the game at PAX the Warhorn did fear. Why they changed it to daze I'll never know. > > > > > > > > > > Probably for lockdown.. > > > > > Necro's are pretty sucky in the mobility department so having a 2 second daze rather than a 2 second fear is more useful to pin a target down and deal damage. > > > > > > > > > > Back in Gw1 Wail of Doom was an Elite Hex spell that reduced all of an enemy's attributes to 0 for a few seconds, that would have been fun in Gw2.. though obviously way too OP lol > > > > > > > > I personally would like both as options. Adding the skill conversation to fear of death and merging Banshee's wail with it would help and then it could be 1 second to go to 2 seconds. I use warhorn a lot but I never use the trait. > > > > > > That could certainly work, but they'd have to keep the CC duration the same as the current daze duration or it would end up being a nerf. > > > Pretty sure 1 sec daze does the same defiance bar damage as 1 sec of fear does. > > > > Its 2 second daze. With the trait it would be 2 seconds of fear. Which is about the same amount. Fear of death is valuable without using a warhorn so there is that. There is also the fact that reaper uses warhorn but doesn't use fear of death. So this would only really effect scourge and core necromancer significantly. > > Yes 2 seconds PvE untraited, 1 second PvP/WvW untraited. > The defiance bar damage is calculated by duration though which i'm sure is 100 bar damage per 1 second of Fear and Daze so greater duration = more damage done. > Im not sure if Fear works on tick though because it's a condition and regarded as a soft CC or if it works like Daze and deals full duration as bar damage when it's applied. > I would assume tick since Fear can also be traited to apply damage per tick as well with Terror. > > I guess Reaper could use Fear of Death though I doubt it would be all that great.. maybe a Hybrid Reaper with Terror and Insidious Disruption could kinda make some use of it since Terrify would become a 2 second AoE fear that would deal 888 damage to all enemies around them and torment them at the same time which would get the bonus damage from enemies moving. > It sounds like a good combination attack but I doubt it would be all that impressive in practice though. Fear is break bar degen it's not instant like daze. Which makes it inferior in raids and fractals. Its break bar damage is about the same overall but considering the duration and time spent its lacking. On something like Damos it doesn't work at all. Fear in PvE is poorly balanced which is a shame. Same goes for taunt.

> @"Teratus.2859" said: > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > @"Teratus.2859" said: > > > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > > > @"killfil.3472" said: > > > > > I did always find it strange that Wail of Doom dazes rather than fear. > > > > > > > > In the Demo of the game at PAX the Warhorn did fear. Why they changed it to daze I'll never know. > > > > > > Probably for lockdown.. > > > Necro's are pretty sucky in the mobility department so having a 2 second daze rather than a 2 second fear is more useful to pin a target down and deal damage. > > > > > > Back in Gw1 Wail of Doom was an Elite Hex spell that reduced all of an enemy's attributes to 0 for a few seconds, that would have been fun in Gw2.. though obviously way too OP lol > > > > I personally would like both as options. Adding the skill conversation to fear of death and merging Banshee's wail with it would help and then it could be 1 second to go to 2 seconds. I use warhorn a lot but I never use the trait. > > That could certainly work, but they'd have to keep the CC duration the same as the current daze duration or it would end up being a nerf. > Pretty sure 1 sec daze does the same defiance bar damage as 1 sec of fear does. Its 2 second daze. With the trait it would be 2 seconds of fear. Which is about the same amount. Fear of death is valuable without using a warhorn so there is that. There is also the fact that reaper uses warhorn but doesn't use fear of death. So this would only really effect scourge and core necromancer significantly.

> @"Teratus.2859" said: > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > @"killfil.3472" said: > > > I did always find it strange that Wail of Doom dazes rather than fear. > > > > In the Demo of the game at PAX the Warhorn did fear. Why they changed it to daze I'll never know. > > Probably for lockdown.. > Necro's are pretty sucky in the mobility department so having a 2 second daze rather than a 2 second fear is more useful to pin a target down and deal damage. > > Back in Gw1 Wail of Doom was an Elite Hex spell that reduced all of an enemy's attributes to 0 for a few seconds, that would have been fun in Gw2.. though obviously way too OP lol I personally would like both as options. Adding the skill conversation to fear of death and merging Banshee's wail with it would help and then it could be 1 second to go to 2 seconds. I use warhorn a lot but I never use the trait.

> @"MatyrGustav.6210" said: > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > The thing i want most is a main hand weapon, condo or hybrid, and a spec that doesn't use shroud but uses life force for other things, like scourge does. > > Yeah me too, i feel like Necro shouldnt be defined as a shroud thing for extra survivability. Whatever they do to replace shroud i hope it plays like a classic Necromancer. Health sacrifice, offensive party support, debuffing, glass cannon, minion master. Lots of options the necromancer of guild wars 2 hasn't touched.

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said: > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > > there def needs to be more boon rip. the nerf to boon rip in the megapatch was dumb. this could be done easily and effectively but this is anet we're talking about. > > Not as dumb as the removal of damage from CC, although still rather dumb. Yeah I wasn't a fan of that either.

> @"MatyrGustav.6210" said: > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > @"MatyrGustav.6210" said: > > > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > > > @"NecroSummonsMors.7816" said: > > > > > Swords is all we need, double sword vampire single target dps duelist, a bit of sustain more mobile than usual necro. > > > > > Shield and hammer could be nice options too, ofc shield would be for a true tank spec, hammer idk > > > > > But no more shroud less specs or slow heavy hitting bs, cauz that didn't work properly before. Just start with a nice balance concept in mind without have to swing the spec from trash to op and reverse > > > > > > > > Necromancer has too many sustain traits as it is. Needs to be cut by at least half. We're already too tanky at face value. > > > > > > > > As for sword I do think it's most likely as well. My speculation comes from it being the most popular option as well as I have a suspicion that Sacrifice is going to be utilized for the next elite spec in some way. Blood bank makes me think this because barrier can be used as the health cost for Health Loss skills. You can test this yourself with signet of Undeath. I actually did by mistake and later tested again to confirm. Although I suspect it wasn't always that way but I can't confirm that. > > > > > > > > A vampire/bloodmage spec is actually quite a high probability based on my speculation. And sword would be the best option imo. > > > > > > But what about bone skills, you think theres a chance for tradition Bone and summon skeleton necro spec? > > > > Shield would be great for bones. But I don't know. It's hard to speculate. Even my speculation is built on thin ice so it could be super wrong. > > > > Perhaps a bone collector which is sorta a Bloodborn or Dark souls thing. Which could work in a Horror trope. > > If its a shield i have a feeling we will get to transform into a Bone thing or just summon bone armor for the next shroud mechanic. If its just Bone armor, maybe we could still use our normal attacks, and it would just mitigate damage like a massive barrier. But i dont think the community will be happy with that. > > Everyone seems to want a Vampire Sword Necro, in which would be really cool. If so i hope its Dual sword to give some options for people to go ???/Sword or Sword/???. > It highly depends on how its executed. I think a "Bone spec" needs to do something unique enough that the core, scourge and reaper don't currently do. Sword Sword would be interesting but not sure what an offhand sword would really do for a necromancer. Main hand sword could be our melee condi weapon which we don't have. Offhand? not sure. Would be nice for Arena net to add more core weapons and not just elite spec weapons but that might be asking a bit much.

> @"MatyrGustav.6210" said: > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > @"NecroSummonsMors.7816" said: > > > Swords is all we need, double sword vampire single target dps duelist, a bit of sustain more mobile than usual necro. > > > Shield and hammer could be nice options too, ofc shield would be for a true tank spec, hammer idk > > > But no more shroud less specs or slow heavy hitting bs, cauz that didn't work properly before. Just start with a nice balance concept in mind without have to swing the spec from trash to op and reverse > > > > Necromancer has too many sustain traits as it is. Needs to be cut by at least half. We're already too tanky at face value. > > > > As for sword I do think it's most likely as well. My speculation comes from it being the most popular option as well as I have a suspicion that Sacrifice is going to be utilized for the next elite spec in some way. Blood bank makes me think this because barrier can be used as the health cost for Health Loss skills. You can test this yourself with signet of Undeath. I actually did by mistake and later tested again to confirm. Although I suspect it wasn't always that way but I can't confirm that. > > > > A vampire/bloodmage spec is actually quite a high probability based on my speculation. And sword would be the best option imo. > > But what about bone skills, you think theres a chance for tradition Bone and summon skeleton necro spec? Shield would be great for bones. But I don't know. It's hard to speculate. Even my speculation is built on thin ice so it could be super wrong. Perhaps a bone collector which is sorta a Bloodborn or Dark souls thing. Which could work in a Horror trope.

> @"NecroSummonsMors.7816" said: > Swords is all we need, double sword vampire single target dps duelist, a bit of sustain more mobile than usual necro. > Shield and hammer could be nice options too, ofc shield would be for a true tank spec, hammer idk > But no more shroud less specs or slow heavy hitting bs, cauz that didn't work properly before. Just start with a nice balance concept in mind without have to swing the spec from trash to op and reverse Necromancer has too many sustain traits as it is. Needs to be cut by at least half. We're already too tanky at face value. As for sword I do think it's most likely as well. My speculation comes from it being the most popular option as well as I have a suspicion that Sacrifice is going to be utilized for the next elite spec in some way. Blood bank makes me think this because barrier can be used as the health cost for Health Loss skills. You can test this yourself with signet of Undeath. I actually did by mistake and later tested again to confirm. Although I suspect it wasn't always that way but I can't confirm that. A vampire/bloodmage spec is actually quite a high probability based on my speculation. And sword would be the best option imo.

> @"killfil.3472" said: > I did always find it strange that Wail of Doom dazes rather than fear. In the Demo of the game at PAX the Warhorn did fear. Why they changed it to daze I'll never know.

> @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > Every class having a boon strip is not thematically supported. We need to support the idea that choices in this game are meaningful, not degrade them with giving all classes full access to a ever widening pool of skills. > > > > > > > > > > > > Never said every class. > > > > > > > > > > OK ... my mistake ... still, boon strip doesn't need to be given to the classes that don't currently have it ... for the same reason. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > Every class having a boon strip is not thematically supported. We need to support the idea that choices in this game are meaningful, not degrade them with giving all classes full access to a ever widening pool of skills. > > > > > > > > > > > > They managed to give it to warrior so I guess they can very well give it to any profession. > > > > > > > > > > > > Otherwise, I do agree with Lan Deathrider, before thinking of giving boon hate on every profession, ANet should probably first fix the difference of "impact" boon hate have between sPvP/WvW and PvE. I would say that the necromancer suffer more from this "difference of impact" than from ANet using him as their main mean to restrain boons in sPvP/WvW. > > > > > > > > > > Agreed, if the theme supports it, they can dole it out to whatever classes they want. Still, what I said is correct ... every class having a boon strip is not thematically supported. I mean ... you're a reasonable person from what I can tell ... clearly you don't think giving out more boon strip is a good idea ... and likely for reasons similar to what I posted. Do we somehow think we don't want meaningful choices when we choose a class? I think we do ... and giving many classes the same access to similar tools degrades meaningful choices. > > > > > > > > Every class I mentioned has boon strip. > > > > > > Perhaps I wasn't clear so it's worth elaborating. > > > > > > The classes that have it thematically support boon stripping and those that don't ... don't. I think with that we agree. > > > > > > The 'amount' that a class can strip is ALSO thematically determined. You state you don't feel it should be 'exclusive' to necros (even though you acknowledge others classes have different amounts), then go to propose those other classes should have more ... without reasoning other than "necros identity" ... that's pretty weird because the theme of a class isn't determined based on the theme of another ... but let's continue anyways. > > > > > > So let me flip this around to you: Understanding that boon stripping is based on THEME for the classes ... what is your reason you believe the other classes should have more other than "it shouldn't be their (necro's) defining identity"? You do realize that giving other classes more doesn't STOP boon stripping from being a significant part of necro's identity right? > > > > > > Let's make it simpler ... what is it about the theme of the other classes that make you feel they are lacking a certain amount of boon strip? and what is the correct amount based on that theme (determined by Anet mind you). > > > > > > and just for the record to be more clear; I'm not a proponent of the idea without some relevant discussion about some _valid_ reason for it to happen. At the moment, it should be clear I absolutely hate the idea of interesting and meaningful skills/effects being passed around to more classes to degrade what it means to have choice in classes because of effects/skills they have access to. > > > > I mentioned exclusively of a specific role. Not the ability to perform a task. I talked about in the past a type of class I called a foil. A foil is designed to keep popular strategies in check. The necromancer has always played this role to lesser or greater success and traditional other classes have as well such as mesmer. Boon strip is a vital too to the foil's kit and my philosophy is that a meta is unhealthy without having a number of foils in the format proportional to the number of builds. There should always be less than the total number of builds but it shouldn't be as low as it is now and as limited to one class as it is now. > > OK ... that's your philosophy .. but it doesn't answer my question. What is it about the themes of the 'have not' boon strippers that makes you think they aren't at some correct amount of boon stripping capability ... whatever that level is? it's CERTAINLY not that necros excel at it. > > > >. But with a diverse cast of characters like in GW2 having just one is an issue. > > Well, it's not an issue ... because success in this game generally has nothing to do with boon stripping; the lack of a specific skills/effects has never been a barrier to completing content and being successful. It would be more correct to say you think it's inappropriate we don't have more boon strip capability for the classes that have some access to it ... but it's a big stretch to say that's a _game issue_. > > I'm going to put this out there ... I would be _very upset_ as one of these 'have not' boon stripper classes if my classes' bandwidth for skills/effects was **wasted** on a increase in boon strip ability for PVE .. it's been pretty clear in this game you don't get something for nothing. I can see where there is a case for this being desirable for PVP ... but the question remains what the correct amount is there. Really, I could see a point to this idea is needed IF there was more mechanics where the effect was needed to be successful. That's just not the case. There are plenty of skills that could see an improvement. On Mesmer as well. Such as Null Field and arcane thievery. Fumigate with the elixir gun could use some boon removal and these changes wouldn't harm existing builds. There are plenty of underwhelming skills that could use some improvement and plenty of traits as well. It doesn't even need to be any boon removal but specific boon targeting. Like throw Mines could break protection and Stab or something along those lines. Boon stripping is just one aspect of a Foil's tool kit. And it's a heavily neglected one. It's an aspect of counter play though and in the GW2 landscape it's an important one. Boons are some of the most powerful things you can do in GW2 and I don't think everyone should have corruption like necromancer does but a few extra boon strips wouldn't hurt.

> @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > Every class having a boon strip is not thematically supported. We need to support the idea that choices in this game are meaningful, not degrade them with giving all classes full access to a ever widening pool of skills. > > > > > > > > Never said every class. > > > > > > OK ... my mistake ... still, boon strip doesn't need to be given to the classes that don't currently have it ... for the same reason. > > > > > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > Every class having a boon strip is not thematically supported. We need to support the idea that choices in this game are meaningful, not degrade them with giving all classes full access to a ever widening pool of skills. > > > > > > > > They managed to give it to warrior so I guess they can very well give it to any profession. > > > > > > > > Otherwise, I do agree with Lan Deathrider, before thinking of giving boon hate on every profession, ANet should probably first fix the difference of "impact" boon hate have between sPvP/WvW and PvE. I would say that the necromancer suffer more from this "difference of impact" than from ANet using him as their main mean to restrain boons in sPvP/WvW. > > > > > > Agreed, if the theme supports it, they can dole it out to whatever classes they want. Still, what I said is correct ... every class having a boon strip is not thematically supported. I mean ... you're a reasonable person from what I can tell ... clearly you don't think giving out more boon strip is a good idea ... and likely for reasons similar to what I posted. Do we somehow think we don't want meaningful choices when we choose a class? I think we do ... and giving many classes the same access to similar tools degrades meaningful choices. > > > > Every class I mentioned has boon strip. > > Perhaps I wasn't clear so it's worth elaborating. > > The classes that have it thematically support boon stripping and those that don't ... don't. I think with that we agree. > > The 'amount' that a class can strip is ALSO thematically determined. You state you don't feel it should be 'exclusive' to necros (even though you acknowledge others classes have different amounts), then go to propose those other classes should have more ... without reasoning other than "necros identity" ... that's pretty weird because the theme of a class isn't determined based on the theme of another ... but let's continue anyways. > > So let me flip this around to you: Understanding that boon stripping is based on THEME for the classes ... what is your reason you believe the other classes should have more other than "it shouldn't be their (necro's) defining identity"? You do realize that giving other classes more doesn't STOP boon stripping from being a significant part of necro's identity right? > > Let's make it simpler ... what is it about the theme of the other classes that make you feel they are lacking a certain amount of boon strip? and what is the correct amount based on that theme (determined by Anet mind you). > > and just for the record to be more clear; I'm not a proponent of the idea without some relevant discussion about some _valid_ reason for it to happen. At the moment, it should be clear I absolutely hate the idea of interesting and meaningful skills/effects being passed around to more classes to degrade what it means to have choice in classes because of effects/skills they have access to. I mentioned exclusively of a specific role. Not the ability to perform a task. I talked about in the past a type of class I called a foil. A foil is designed to keep popular strategies in check. The necromancer has always played this role to lesser or greater success and traditional other classes have as well such as mesmer. Boon strip is a vital too to the foil's kit and my philosophy is that a meta is unhealthy without having a number of foils in the format proportional to the number of builds. There should always be less than the total number of builds but it shouldn't be as low as it is now and as limited to one class as it is now. Foils can be a feel bad to play against but they are vital to the health of a format. And if more foils exist players except it more as a part of the game and ultimately engage more with the format. If it's just one or 2 classes that act in this role they players fail to understand the importance of these classes and they get large amounts of community backlash to the detriment of the format. Of course a foil can never be the top build. But when a foil is strong enough and it's the only one it becomes a necessity on a team which skews people's perspective. If it's not strong enough its entirely forgotten and the top builds just run rampant unchecked creating a more stale format. Neither case is ideal. So the best solution is to increase the number of foils available to the play to diversify class representation. You can think of a foil like a Heel in wrestling. The Moriarty to the Sherlock Holmes. But with a diverse cast of characters like in GW2 having just one is an issue.

> @"Kodama.6453" said: > I am still hoping that we are getting an elite spec focused on alchemy for the engineer in the future. This could potentially be an opportunity to improve engineer's boon hate. > > As you mentioned, engineer used to have another option to remove boons except the mine: acidic elixirs. It made all thrown elixirs deal some (very tiny) power damage and remove a boon from all enemies hit. > In general, Anet removed alot of our aggressive usages of alchemy when it comes to thematic. Acid coating, acidic elixirs, deadly mixture, etc. > > A new elite spec that uses many different aggressive fumes and acids to apply conditions on enemies and remove boons from them seems like a good option. I'd add boon strip to some current Elixirs. Such as the Elixir gun on Fumigate. Possible on Mortor Kit too. Just as a baseline.

> @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > Every class having a boon strip is not thematically supported. We need to support the idea that choices in this game are meaningful, not degrade them with giving all classes full access to a ever widening pool of skills. > > > > Never said every class. > > OK ... my mistake ... still, boon strip doesn't need to be given to the classes that don't currently have it ... for the same reason. > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > Every class having a boon strip is not thematically supported. We need to support the idea that choices in this game are meaningful, not degrade them with giving all classes full access to a ever widening pool of skills. > > > > They managed to give it to warrior so I guess they can very well give it to any profession. > > > > Otherwise, I do agree with Lan Deathrider, before thinking of giving boon hate on every profession, ANet should probably first fix the difference of "impact" boon hate have between sPvP/WvW and PvE. I would say that the necromancer suffer more from this "difference of impact" than from ANet using him as their main mean to restrain boons in sPvP/WvW. > > Agreed, if the theme supports it, they can dole it out to whatever classes they want. Still, what I said is correct ... every class having a boon strip is not thematically supported. I mean ... you're a reasonable person from what I can tell ... clearly you don't think giving out more boon strip is a good idea ... and likely for reasons similar to what I posted. Do we somehow think we don't want meaningful choices when we choose a class? I think we do ... and giving many classes the same access to similar tools degrades meaningful choices. Every class I mentioned has boon strip.

> @"Obtena.7952" said: > Every class having a boon strip is not thematically supported. We need to support the idea that choices in this game are meaningful, not degrade them with giving all classes full access to a ever widening pool of skills. Never said every class.

> @"lare.5129" said: > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > The Burden of being the Stop gap to self buffing classes shouldn't fall squarely on the shoulders of a single class. > by that logic everyone should have avatar and spirits? who no evryone spam alacrity?? > > >This leads to a lot of bad feelings and a call to nerf when it ultimately harms the overall format and further. > nice words, but about they? what? where? > > > It hyper focuses balance on a symptom of a problem as opposed to the main problem. > necro is not support all party alacrity .. is this problem? > > > Either You weaken boon application substantially in PvP and WvW or you can offer more and stronger counter play. One method is a major feel bad for players the other opens new possibilities. > why we should be happy for "weaken boon application substantially" ?? It opposite cut game and make it "linear". > > > Mesmer Was the as good at enchantment removal as necromancer in Guild wars 1. > yes, and in tetris game I make record in my class. Can we also add this to boon strip equation? > > >Mesmer is supposed to be a control class. > it not supposed. If someone think and hope it is not that is was supposed. > > >Which they are but they don't preform as such as well as they should anymore. > they should not. How say of greatest football player after lose game: "your expectations are your problems" > Actually, the rules for Basketball specifically were changed to prevent a specific type of player from rising to dominance again. The 3 point line. And mesmer was more control focused in GW2 early on in its life and much into HoT. It was rolled back a lot especially after PoF which is a mistake imo. But I'm not going to keep trying to convince you as you don't want to be convinced. So, good luck with whatever it is you do. I'm going to keep posting on issues arena net will figure out 5 years later. That last bit is a joke rooted in truth but still a joke.